This is an iHeart Podcast. New customer offer for first three months only.
Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy.
Taxes and fees extra.
Seamintmobile .com. Did you know using your browser in incognito mode doesn't actually protect your privacy?
Take back your privacy with IPVanish VPN.
Just one tap and all your data, passwords, communications, browsing history and more will be instantly protected.
IPVanish makes you virtually invisible online.
Use IPVanish on all your devices.
Anytime you go online at home and especially on public Wi -Fi.
Get IPVanish now for 70 % off a yearly plan with this exclusive offer at IPVanish .com slash audio.
Don't let biased algorithms or degree screens or exclusive professional networks or stereotypes.
Don't let anything keep you from discovering the half of the workforce who are stars.
Workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree.
It's time to tear the paper ceiling and see the stars beyond it Find out how you can make stars part of your talent strategy At TearThePaperCeiling .org Brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council You hear that sound?
That's the sound of grapes being crushed And that one simple act seems subtle enough but in fact, it's what makes wine wine, instead of just grape juice.
From the moment the juice spills from inside of the skins of the spherical fruit, the transition from grape juice to wine is already underway.
At this point, there are basically two ways this could go.
The person making the wine could decide to add yeast, or they could decide to do nothing and the ambient yeast that is on your skin in your hair in the air and pretty much everywhere will come into contact with the grape juice and the juice for now is just fruit juice it's sweet and sugar filled now yeast yeast love sugar and immediately begin happily munching all of it.
Now, of course, after we eat we also create byproduct and the same is true for the magical yeast but their byproduct is carbon dioxide and ethanol which is better known as alcohol.
So from this moment on there are decisions to be made about how to raise the wine and one decision that could be made is whether to do anything else at all.
And when the choice to do nothing in both the vineyard where the grapes are grown or in the cellar where the wine is made, that decision to do nothing is called non -interventionist winemaking or, more commonly, natural wine.
Nothing added, nothing taken away.
We turn now to our producer, Celine.
Celine is in Berkeley, California, embarking on a guided wine tasting with a fabulous natural winemaker, Jared Brandt, of Donkey and Goat Winery.
I'm at Donkey and Goat Winery, where they're making award -winning red and white blends of natural wine.
So, I think when you taste, and one of the beauties of blind tasting, I think it's really hard to get the grape, the varietal right.
I'm chatting with Jared Brandt, who's the co -owner and co -winemaker.
Yeah, I was going to say, it's Merlot, of all things.
It tastes like cider.
There's definitely a cider component, I get that, So it's a petulant natural, or a petnat, which means what we did is why it was fermenting, we bottled it so it does have bubbles.
Not a lot of bubbles.
Instead of adding sugar to make the bubbles and yeast, we just used the naturally occurring sugar in the grapes.
Like, we do it while it's fermenting.
It reminds me a little bit of a cherry Jolly Rancher.
Like, there's a cherry and also, like, a candied apple.
like you know those apples that you get like dipped in caramel I guess it's not candy to Apple it's a caramel Apple yeah I get like that kind of flavor there's definitely like the apple yeah it's really clear to me is natural wine more connected to terroir dude the idea of not manipulating the wine which I think is core to the natural wine is very specific to the terroir.
If you're not trying to change the flavor profile or enhance it, what the land gave you and the grape wines gave you should hopefully come through in the glass.
We got started doing skin macerated white wines because we had a vineyard where it was very hard to get the wine to go dry naturally because of the deficit of nutrients when you pressed it off the skins immediately.
And if you left it on the skins it would go dry 15 days instead of like a year and so i to me it's more terroir specific because you don't have to do any manipulation to get it to go dry but i think that's kind of a debate um we do do a lot of foot stomping where we want to give it a light skin contact um so like we'll foot stomp it like at 8 a .m and then at 12 o 'clock we'll press it off and so that gives it some of the tannins from the skins but it's not over the top and feet are really a great i mean it's kind of a miraculous thing which is hard to replicate because like your foot actually has a lot
of pressure but at the same time the the pad of your foot is soft so you can't break seeds and so like if you're trying to to break up a grape but you don't want any of the heart seeds have harsh tannins in them i'm not sure you can really do it mechanically like you get rollers but they're not really that soft and you see broken seeds but if you do it with your foot you don't ever see that and then And then on top of it, it gets even more complex if you do the stem.
If you run a stem through a roller to break it up, it breaks it up all the way, and you get all these weird, harsh, really green flavors more than anything else.
If you do that same process with a foot, you don't get those.
Can you share your thoughts and perspective about natural wine movement in California, and has it been well -received?
So this is a two -fold answer for me, because we have been making wine in the same style since 2003 in California and 2002 we did in France.
So until 2000, probably 2011 or 2012, California hated it.
Californians were into very big, ripe, highly manipulated wine and being overly general, giant generalization, but there was years where we sold more wine in Sweden than we did in California.
and I think in general Californians at that stage and the wine industry in general in the United States was really seeking these really big wines and to successfully kind of the components of making like a really big red they typically had a little bit of residual sugar and so as a result they couldn't be made naturally because if you left the residual sugar in them and you didn't do something to stabilize it chemically effectively it would re -ferment and bottle So I think starting in 2010 -11 there was a radical shift and I think this is worldwide.
I think a lot of people in general are more interested in authentic food, simpler wine, knowing the producer, knowing that it wasn't made in a factory, it wasn't made in a chemist shop, that it's made by sun and water and soil.
oil. Napa's this weird anomaly.
Like we work with organic vineyards and there's very few organic vineyards in Napa.
And it's this anomaly to me because like they have infinite money.
And maybe not right now because I think the wine market's going through a radical change.
But five years ago, you know, they could sell as much wine as they made.
And to be organic, there's a little bit more risk.
That said, I think Napa's kind of late to the natural wine world.
Like if I thought of iconic natural wines from california there probably wouldn't be one from napa on the list i'm alex i'm galit our next guest alex shulkin and gail shahaf are a husband and wife making wines in the adelaide hills of south australia so australia is huge huge continent um adelaide hills uh where is it exactly and what are some notable things about australia so well it's south australia's self -explanatory adelaide hills is an area i guess around around Adelaide itself, slightly more elevated, there is a lot of, well, a fair bit of grapes grown in South Australia.
In fact, in Australia, every state has a nickname, and South Australia is the wine state.
Within that wine state, there are a few different wine regions, and Adelaide Hills is arguably arguably more focused toward high -end grape growing and so it happened that natural wine in Australia started happening in this area probably less than 10 kilometers from where we are right now about 15 years ago and the rest is history basically it's still It's still kind of an epicenter of natural wine in Australia, but of course now it's a lot wider, and natural wine is made in every state wherever they grow grapes, which is every state except the Northern Territory.
And I remember back in the, let's say, late 90s, early 2000s, Australian wine had a reputation internationally of being really inexpensive, really high in alcohol, made with kind of overly ripened grapes.
And of course, the Yellowtail explosion happened around the same time in which they became one of the largest wine brands in the world.
And many other multinational wine companies were kind of chasing them and chasing this standard style of high alcohol, kind of sweet, powerful wine.
wine. Obviously that is so far away from the kind of wine that you all are making.
So can you help us understand in a broader sense what the transition was that occurred in the Australian wine market over the last 15 years?
It's not unique to wine or natural wine or anything really happens in every aspect of life and industries and production, et cetera, things take a direction and then they accelerate in that direction, I guess.
People get excited and then it just goes a little bit too far.
And then sooner or later, people start realizing that it's, in fact, gone too far and then the pendulum starts moving backwards in the opposite direction right now we just it's just moving away from uh those um very extracted very ripe just the way you described wines i would be surprised if in 20 years time we'll find ourselves in the big oak big ripeness this zone again yeah that's a really good point actually uh the cyclical nature of wine consumers isn't so much about them being wine consumers but just human beings um so then uh the point is well taken that i think is a good perspective for us
to consider natural wine as kind of a organic outgrowth or the other side of the pendulum of, as you say, what the global wine market was a couple decades ago.
So then in your own words, can you all help us understand when we're talking about natural wine, what is it that we're talking about?
It's a bit of both, really.
When we arrived to Australia 10 years ago, we were not aware of of natural wine, and not many people frankly were, but we were lucky enough to run into it basically as soon as we came here and we got really excited by that.
It didn't take long for us to get stuck into it and start doing it ourselves.
It's only been eight years, but the idea of natural wine has evolved a lot.
We have evolved a lot and we're still figuring it out and adapting and learning.
And, I mean, what was it about natural wine production that felt resonant with your own ideas or sensibilities that made you want to start producing wine this way?
Many of them would follow them quite fanatically, whereas in our world, the only rule that we follow is that the rules do not exist. There is not a single rule that applies universally to every single wine.
We try to live more sustainably in our life, generally speaking.
We try to consume food and pretty much everything that comes in a more sustainable way.
And I think part of this evolution of natural wine, what Alex was speaking before, it's not just about the way the wine is grown and made.
And it comes to furniture that you buy and it comes to everything pretty much. And now we're going into this mode of more handmade, more small producers and more self -expression as well.
So something that is a bit more fluid in a way.
And I think it speaks to both of us in what we make.
Do you sell most of your wine in Australia?
We do. And that's a choice.
we do export wine because we want to share I guess our ideas and our wine with the rest of the world on the other hand from the sustainability point of view we don't quite like the idea of our wine accumulating all those food miles so I guess we're trying to balance it send a bit send a bit but not too too much, and we export to Japan, to Denmark, to Taiwan and Korea and the US.
And we actually send a fair bit of wine to the US.
Our distributor is Tess Bryant.
When I say we send a fair bit, it's not a lot, on general scheme of things, but it is a lot for us because we don't make that much wine.
wine. Well, Tess Bryant is a really good friend of mine.
I love her and I was, she's actually the first person who introduced me to your wines as she developed an entire import company here in the U .S. based on natural winemakers from Australia.
And so I wasn't even aware really of the breadth of this movement in Australia until I trust that you are in good hands in in working with her have you heard how much of the discourse around natural wine is kind of has this this contentious or confrontational tone, is that something that is unique to the U .S. in this moment?
Or are you also seeing that from the press or maybe sommeliers or consumers in Australia who might find the natural wine movement as perhaps frivolous and the best case or maybe even harmful to some other producers in the worst case.
For instance, one of the common refrains here in the States is that without any standards that perhaps the lack of consistency among the producers who are making wines naturally could in effect undermine people who have the same environmental principles.
The lack of consistency among those who make natural wine cannot undermine those who don't make natural wine, because if anything, it would undermine those who do make natural wine.
Sure. The way I see it.
Yeah. When it comes to people who choose not to position themselves as natural wine, well, we don't quite position ourselves as natural wine.
That's just what we do.
And that's what We are very happy to explain what we do.
It appears on our website in a very transparent fashion.
The word natural is not used there very often.
Basically, in a way, natural wine is something that people would refer to our wine as, but it's not necessarily the term we use that often.
We're really not trying to undermine anyone else's effort, and we do respect.
our colleagues who choose to make wine in a different way that that's perfectly fine but we do see wine making as an art form and because of that and mainly because of that we really try and move away as far as we can from any standardization because that would be that that would do many kind of an art form so in summary then you are basically saying that that natural wine is a term that doesn't have a rigid or standard definition.
Natural wine, in its essence, is really about a non -intervening style of winemaking that adds nothing at all to the fermenting grapes.
It is just the purest expression of wine without any inputs and the output being, you know, whatever the grape has to say.
Did you know using your browser in incognito mode doesn't actually protect your privacy?
Take back your privacy with IPVanish VPN.
Just one tap and all your data, passwords, communications, browsing history, and more will be instantly protected.
IPVanish makes you virtually invisible online.
Use IPVanish on all your devices, anytime you go online at home, and especially on public Wi -Fi.
Get IPVanish now for 70 % off a yearly plan with this exclusive offer at IPVanish .com slash audio.
So what happened at Chappaquiddick?
Well, it really depends on who you talk to.
There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond.
And left a woman behind to drown.
There's a famous headline, I think, in the New York Daily News.
It's, Teddy Escapes, Blonde Drowns.
And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you the story really became about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes.
Will Ted become president?
Chappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.
And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal.
The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it.
So is there a curse?
Every week, we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.
Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey, I'm Radhida Vluchia, and I'm the host of A Really Good Cry podcast. And I have the opportunity to talk to Vivian too.
She is someone who is definitely changing the way we talk about money.
She is a former Wall Street trader turned personal finance educator, content creator, and now the author of a New York Times bestselling book, Rich AF.
Whether you're trying to get out of debt, build wealth, negotiate like a boss, or just finally understand how to do money right, Vivian is the person to ask.
I think that is terrifying because not understanding your own money and not understanding finances is one of the easiest ways to get in a situation where you don't have options and there is risk for financial abuse.
Yeah. You don't have the money to leave. You cannot make choices that take money out of the equation because you don't have it.
And that is why every single woman needs to be good with money.
Listen to A Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Do you think that overall this natural wine movement and this language around natural wine, has it been more harmful or helpful in furthering the wine drinking world?
robe and probably benefits the whole consumer but not only the consumers but also the the winemaking side because more and more conventional winemakers would get in touch with us and just come and hang around taste the wines and it would be very clear that they're trying to suss out what is going on and is it really true that we can get away with that kind of a winemaking And getting away with things is probably key here.
Quoting a famous person who said, art is what you can get away with.
It really drives more conventional winemakers to explore those horizons further.
So I think in that regard, it's a very positive impact on the whole industry.
history. I love that.
But I do think that one part of it that is not commented on enough, Gayla, you mentioned the implication being, well, what is a natural wine or what are the things that are added to other wines that we might not be aware of?
And as we're talking about it as a trend, it actually kind of sets up a change in consumer behavior and patterns, which in effect sets up a change in behavior for conventional producers.
But I believe that one of the upsides of the movement that you're speaking to is that it has actually in a very short amount of time significantly shift consumer curiosity, shifted the behavior, and to hear that you now have conventional winemakers coming to you all asking about the viability of making wines naturally, I'm actually really encouraged by that outcome, regardless of how we get there, really.
and as jared brandt from donkey and goat says i think it's it's more like just it's just like kind of returning to an older school way of doing things with less manipulation we'll be back next week to hear more from sommelier amanda smelts as we continue our our exploration and learn about what natural wine is, how it's made, and importantly, what it represents.
I'll also be taking you on a journey very special and personal to me.
We will go to the birthplace of natural wine, which is in fact the birthplace of wine itself.
And then I will lead you on a special tasting to share with you what I've learned throughout my career as a recovering sommelier and you can sample and enjoy a glass of wine along with me.
So stay tuned for next week's episode of Point of Origin.
Thank you to all of our guests today on the show to Jarrett Brandt and Alex Shulkin and Galit Shishaf in the Adelaide Hills of Australia.
Special thanks to my business partner, who makes all things possible at Whetstone, our co -founder, Melissa Shi.
Thanks, Mel. Thank you to Celine Glager, who is our lead producer, to Kat Hong, our editor, to Havin Obasalase, and Quentin LeBeau, our production interns.
Turns to our friends at iHeart Radio for helping us bring you this podcast to Gabrielle Collins our supervising producer engineer JJ Pawsway and executive producer Christopher Hasiotis I'm your host the Origin Forger Stephen Satterfield and we will be back here next week with more from Whetstone Magazine's Point of Origin podcast did you know using your browser in incognito mode doesn't actually protect your privacy take back your privacy with IPVanish Just one tap and all your data, passwords, communications, browsing history, and more will be instantly protected.
IPVanish makes you virtually invisible online.
Use IPVanish on all your devices, anytime you go online at home and especially on public Wi -Fi.
Get IPVanish now for 70 % off a yearly plan with this exclusive offer at IPVanish .com.
And here's Heather with the weather.
Well, it's beautiful out there, sunny and 75, almost a little chilly in the shade.
Now, let's get a read on the inside of your car.
It is hot. You've only been parked a short time, and it's already 99 degrees in there.
Let's not leave children in the backseat while running errands.
It only takes a few minutes for their body temperatures to rise, and that could be fatal.
Cars get hot fast and can be deadly.
Never leave a child in a car.
A message from NHTSA and the Ad Council.
as well. Money doesn't have to be complicated.
It just has to make sense.
Hey, it's Victoria Devine from the She's on the Money podcast. I know talking about money can feel intimidating.
Trust me with the right tips, anyone can take control of their finances.
Let me help you take the stress out of managing your finances and provide you with the tools to thrive.
From down under to the US, I'll show you how to make your money work harder for you no matter your goals.
Search for She's on the Money now on the free iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts.
This is an iHeart Podcast.
