Love now and always.
Love is stronger than anything else.
And I love you more than anything.
There's still love.
From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
This is Modern Love.
And today I'm talking to Stephanie Gunning.
Stephanie is the kind of person who gets things done.
If taxes need to be paid, she's paying them.
If her kid needs a new backpack, she's buying two.
And when her husband got depressed, she was like, OK.
No problem.
We'll handle this too, even when it got really bad.
And there was a day when it did get really bad.
It was their nightmare scenario.
But Stephanie being Stephanie, got through that day and went to work the next morning like nothing happened.
I wanted to talk to Stephanie about the moment when she finally reached her own breaking point and what it's like for two people to love each other through the worst of it.
Stephanie Gunning, welcome to Modern Love.
Well, thank you so much.
It's a real pleasure to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Of course.
Stephanie, I would love to hear your meet-cute story with your husband, Jonathan.
Absolutely.
It really is.
It's the kind of thing where, if you read it, you'd think you know, I don't believe this story.
Like...
Rewrite.
Too cute.
It's way too cute.
No one's going to buy this.
But it is, in fact, a true New York story.
So I got married very young.
I got married at 24.
That marriage ended when I was 29.
And it was the kind of... dissolution of a marriage where you really just take stock of everything.
And I started taking all kinds of, not risks.
I mean, I don't want to make it sound like I was, you know, out there jumping out of planes or anything.
I mean, it wasn't like that, but I thought maybe I'm.
I felt like I didn't really know myself, or I thought maybe I'm someone who I don't know.
A time of reinvention.
Yes.
We turn to the outdoors sometimes when we're looking for guidance.
So I bought a bicycle.
Never rode that bicycle.
Not one time.
It hung in my house.
I have done that.
Yeah.
I thought it looked so cute on my wall.
I was like, look at me.
I'm a Brooklyn girl with a bicycle.
So...
As part of the maybe I'm someone who camps I had a bunch of friends who are still some of my dearest friends.
And they did camp.
They were people who camp.
And they said, we will take you camping.
And I said, no.
Yay!
They said you need a pair of water shoes for walking around on the Tinker Toy River, and then you need a sleeping bag.
The way you say that, as if it's a foreign concept.
Sleeping bag.
A bag for sleep.
Yeah.
And I said, everything else we will provide for you.
Oh, and boots.
I needed hiking boots.
Okay.
Crucial.
Crucial to this story.
So I went to EMS where every man is cute.
Every one of them was like more adorable than the next.
And they're all outdoorsy and rugged and, you know, like delicious and wearing a flannel.
And I was like, oh, fuck.
Yay, the 90s.
So I said, hi, I need to buy these three things.
Water shoes, hiking boots, sleeping bag.
And the man said, oh, if you need boots, let me call Jonathan.
He's the boot fitting expert.
And I said, cool.
So they called Jonathan.
And from the back of EMS comes Jonathan.
A young Gary Sinise, I don't know how else to describe it, in golden light.
And I heard the Pixies singing Here Comes Your Man.
I'm not even joking.
Oh, my God.
And I was like, oh, dear.
Can you sing it?
What did you hear in your ear?
It was like...
Here comes your man.
And I thought it was not even playing on the soundtrack.
I just was in my brain.
And I thought, oh, my goodness.
He was with the kaleidoscope green and hazel eyes.
He was a cyclist and a hiker, just an outdoer.
And he's an expert at fitting boots.
And he will take care of you in the outdoors.
And the thing also about Jonathan and this is the thing that drew me to him like a magnet is the calmness that he has.
I don't know how else to describe it.
Like being near a tree.
I don't know how else to describe it.
Oh, I love that.
Being near a tree.
And I thought, oh, yes, I'm going to buy everything in this store from this man.
And so he fit me for boots.
And he's like, okay, great.
He said, so is there anything else that you need?
And I was like, boy, do I.
It is not an exaggeration to tell you I spent about $1,000 on camping equipment.
Don't you even say that.
No, I did.
I couldn't stop.
So I got my boots.
I got my water shoes.
I got, I don't know, three pairs, four pairs of smart wool socks.
I got my sleeping bag.
And then I said to him, you know, he said, do you know, are you, I said, I think I need a tent.
Oh, you didn't need one.
And so he shows me a tent and I said, oh, yeah, that looks good.
I said, could you show me how to put it together?
And he was, I mean, he was such a love and he was like, sure.
So he puts the tent together.
And I, I mean really, I still think I, you know like I've kept it pretty tight, but like did I have game in the late 90s coming out of that divorce?
I mean, with, yeah, I was that girl.
So I climb in the tent that he puts together and I stick my little head out and I'm like you're going to think this sounds crazy, but could you come in here with me?
Oh, my God.
And he's like, huh?
I was like, I just want to see how it feels with two people.
So I was in the tent.
He climbed in the tent.
And there he was.
And I thought, I mean, I got nothing to lose at this point.
And so I said this is going to sound nuts, but you seem like someone who it would be really fun to go camping with.
Are you free this weekend?
I really am saying I'm rocking with you.
I'm rolling with you.
For real.
You're going for it.
I went.
Yeah.
I went there.
And what'd he say?
No.
Okay.
Well, so he got all flustered and he was like, um, I have a girlfriend.
Oh, shoot.
And I was like, okay.
All right, then.
Yeah.
Fair play.
So it is.
And then I was like shit, I'm going to have to buy this tent anyway though, because otherwise he's going to know that I
You're like, what's the return policy on this stuff?
Right.
So he packs up all my stuff, my 1000 worth of equipment, and I pay and I give him my business card.
And he was like, oh.
And I said, you know, things change.
Just things change.
So that was in the summer of 2000.
Fast forward to 9-11.
Okay.
So now we're talking more than a year later.
Mm-hmm.
And 9-11 happened.
I happened to have a landline phone and word got out in the neighborhood that I had a landline and strangers were just showing up at my house with baked goods and pizzas and their guitars and saying you know, my name's Mike.
I hear you have a landline.
Would it be okay if I came in and called my parents?
I bought this pizza.
And it's because of the cell power.
Correct.
Yeah, exactly.
Cell phones weren't working.
So I called into my voicemail at work.
I was working at MTV at the time.
And lo and behold, there's a message from him.
And the voicemail essentially said...
I don't know if you're going to remember me.
I sold you boots in the summer of 2000.
We've emailed a couple of times.
I have your business card.
I know that you work below 14th Street.
Can you please just get in touch with me and let me know that you're okay?
I carry your business card with me.
I think about you every day.
I broke up with my girlfriend.
Oh, my God.
But I didn't want to call you right after I broke up with her because I thought that would be weird.
So then I wanted to wait a little bit.
But then I got scared.
He's laying it all out on the line.
So could you call me back?
By the way, this is Jonathan.
I am completely endeared by that.
You know, he was the cute boot guy.
Cute boot.
Cute boot.
Cute boot.
You know and now to get this voicemail that he has been thinking about you since he met you carrying your business card around.
Mm-hmm.
How did that make you feel?
You know, one of the themes of my own life is never being chosen.
And I can't tell you if it's true or not, but it's how I felt.
I understand that.
I had an awful biological father.
My mom kicked him out when I was six.
Thank God.
But he showed up every now and then in my life and never for good.
And when he did show up, I always had to audition.
You know, like I was never, I was never the thing he wanted me to be as a daughter.
So I just always felt like... Not chosen, you said.
Not chosen.
You know, like I was always auditioning and never quite measuring up, never quite fitting in.
And when that voicemail came through, I thought, is this beautiful man choosing me?
Really?
Me?
So you call him back.
I called him back.
I was like, you bet I remember you.
Get on that bicycle and come to Brooklyn.
And I still wasn't sure if we were dating or if he just wanted to be friends.
Like, I was so... He's carrying your damn business card around.
But I had it in my mind that, because of what he looked like and because of the family he came from he comes from this lovely Connecticut family
I grew up in the Bronx.
And I remember saying, like, I really think he might be out of my league.
And my mother said to me, what does that mean?
And I said...
I just think he dates the kind of women who can wear a bandana as a shirt.
You know what I mean?
Of course I know what you mean.
That is not at all where I thought that was going.
Totally I get that.
Yeah, like she's at the campsite and she takes a bandana and she ties it and it's a shirt.
I know what you're saying.
Yes.
Because it's not really about the bandana.
What did you mean?
The kind of girl who what?
He probably dated the kind of girl who... Slim.
Grew up in the suburbs, grew up with wealth, grew up with an intact family.
You know, didn't always have to feel like she was auditioning to be chosen, but who could choose?
She herself could choose.
I like what you said, who could choose.
Yes.
It was the kind of person who could choose.
So you're going on these dates with Jonathan, but you're not sure if he's romantically interested in you.
Correct.
And when did that become clear?
So I want to say it was our third date.
So he took me on a private tour of Grant's tomb.
Cool.
So cool.
And I kept thinking, like, is he ever going to kiss me?
Like, we're here.
It's so romantic.
We're in a tomb.
We're in the tomb.
Hello.
Yeah.
So then, after the tomb, he took me to his favorite bar and he got up, he went to the restroom, he came back, he sat down and he said I need your help with something.
And I said, oh, okay.
He was like, look, here's the thing.
This is our third date.
You're going to have to kiss me.
I have been trying all day and I don't have the guts for this.
You're going to have to do it.
But we got to do it this date because you're going to friend zone me otherwise.
He's like, I know the rules.
Three dates or I'm in the zone.
Please just do it.
And I was like, okay.
He was having the same thoughts about you.
Correct.
I mean, give me a break.
I know.
Here's what I will say.
You know these first couple dates.
You're getting to know each other, but you're still putting your best foot forward, as it were.
Oh, yes.
Both of you, it sounds like.
Absolutely.
And at some point...
The more real picture of who Jonathan is becomes very clear.
And not to say that in any kind of foreboding way, but just a more complete picture.
This happened on your fourth date.
Tell me that story.
So now we're supposed to go on his fourth date and he was going to take me to his favorite Chinese restaurant.
And he called me and he said, listen, I think maybe we should postpone.
And I said, oh, okay, what's up?
And he said, you know, I'm having a really rough night or a really rough day.
And I said, what do you mean?
And he said, it's just, it's, you know, I told you, yeah, I have depression and anxiety.
He's like, I'm just, I'm having a hard day.
And I said to him, listen, here's the thing.
If you and I are gonna do this, you're gonna have to show me.
So I'm coming.
You told me there were soup dumplings.
I'm coming.
And you're going to show me.
He said, or we can... Show you what?
What it was when he said, I'm depressed.
I'm anxious.
I'm having a hard day.
I said, show me.
Show me what you mean.
I said, or we can just not see each other again.
Because I'm already so far along...
You got to let me in.
Show it to me.
You're so far along in that.
And what does that mean that you're so you're in love with him?
I just was I couldn't imagine not being.
I mean, he was I talked to him every he called me every morning at work to say hello.
I called him every night to say good night.
I mean, it just... And we hadn't slept together yet, even.
And... But he just... We fell in with each other.
So he said...
Okay.
Really?
Yeah.
He's like, I'll see you there.
And so we met at the restaurant and we sat down and I said, okay, tell me.
And he told me, you know, he told me that he had suffered with depression and anxiety his whole life.
Do you remember even I mean and I know it's a while ago, but like, do you remember a specific thing he told you about?
His depression or what can you recall?
You know, what he said to me was it's and I do want to give a trigger warning here for for suicide because, because suicide is something that is, I want to say it's large in our life, but it's present, I think, in a way that it maybe isn't for other people.
Hmm.
He said, you know, sometimes it just gets very dark and I feel afraid to leave my house.
And I worry that no one needs me, no one loves me, no one cares about me.
And, you know, that I'm not contributing, you know.
And I said, do you ever, have you ever thought about suicide?
That's a very direct question for you to ask.
So we talked about suicide.
What did he say when you asked him that question?
He said that he had contemplated getting a gun and shooting himself, but it seemed like quite a hassle.
So we talked and talked and talked about our families, about our darkest secrets, about the things we're ashamed of.
We both cried.
They brought us extra tea.
I mean, it was the kind of conversation you have with someone after years or your therapist.
I mean, but we just went for broke.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, it does strike me that this conversation, this early in a budding relationship might scare someone.
Oh, yes.
When you left the Chinese restaurant from that fourth date, were you thinking differently about your future with Jonathan?
You know, when we were done eating and everything.
So he said to me at the end of dinner, you know finally, they were like we are closing, you must leave.
And we were like, okay, we'll leave.
He said to me, so what do you think?
Huh.
Wow.
What a seemingly innocuous question that contains so much.
What do you think?
What do you take that to mean?
I took it as, are we going to see each other again or is this it?
Like, what do you think?
Yeah.
And I was like, you said you live near her, right?
Yeah, girl.
And he said, as a matter of fact, I do.
This way, please.
And up we went to his little studio, and it was magical.
It was all just easy.
You know, I'm just thinking about this.
You know, half an hour before you were smooching in his studio, you were opening up about the darkest corners of yourselves that you hadn't shown.
It sounds like to many people, if anyone else.
That's right.
So it's easy in some ways and it's incredibly difficult in other ways.
It's a very brilliant observation because all of it was so easy, we forgot it was also hard.
I really thought and I mean this sounds so naive I really thought that we would love each other enough that we would never have problems again.
Was there ever a moment where you stopped and thought like we should maybe make a plan for how we might deal with this?
No.
Nope.
My thought was not...
Should I marry someone who is very clearly living with a major depressive disorder, who has medication and therapy?
And look, it had not opened smooth sailing.
He's always had rough days.
He's always had anxiety.
He always struggled emotionally.
In certain ways.
But I loved him so much and I just didn't care.
It never crossed my mind.
I just figured our love will find a way and I will find a way.
Our love will find a way and I will find a way.
Mm-hmm.
We'll be right back.
You get married.
Yes.
And then you start this married life together.
Mm-hmm.
When you were living together in this new married life, did you see that side of him?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
What did it look like, like specifically?
Um, it looked like sleeping in.
Mm-hmm.
It looked like quiet.
It looked like difficulty socializing with others, being with friends, going places, doing things.
And then other times, things were great.
In the times when it was tough, what was your approach?
Would you talk to him?
Would you give him space?
How did you handle it?
I compensated.
I don't want to say I made excuses for him, but I think I did.
I don't want to say it, but as I'm thinking, I'm like, but I did.
As in like your friends would be like, where's Jonathan?
And you'd be like, he's just working.
He's working or, oh, he's something like that.
I often would describe him as shy.
I would say, oh, Jonathan is shy.
That's why he's so quiet.
John is not shy.
John is gregarious.
And you said that because you wanted to protect him?
Yes, because I wanted to protect him.
Because he is my precious love.
And because the world is hard for him sometimes.
And because it's no one's business.
So yeah, I wanted to protect him.
And then when he was...
I don't even know if that's what language would you use?
How would you talk about it to each other when you were?
Well, he was lower.
So I would get angry a lot.
You know, I don't want to paint myself as any kind of saint.
I did get angry and we would fight sometimes.
What were you angry about?
I felt he would disappear.
So the way I talk about it and have talked about it is I talk about the DACC.
So I have a lot of pictures of Jonathan facing away from me, looking out over vistas.
I don't know how this started, but he just would sort of strike a pose and look out on the Grand Canyon or look out over a bridge.
And I found it so endearing.
His body language was like, look at that.
So I have all these pictures of him facing away from me, looking out at something.
And some of them are docs.
And I would say to him, the depression is like the doc.
And how far you are away on the doc is how bad things are in terms of the depression.
And so sometimes he would just be like two feet out on the dock and I'd be like hey, come back, turn around, come back here.
And then sometimes he'd be really far and I couldn't even touch him and I'd have to yell and be like Jonathan, turn around, come back, you're too far.
Other times he would disappear and I could just sort of make out his outline in the mist and I'd get scared.
And I would call for him.
Like, come back.
Come back to me.
And when he would get far away, I would get angry.
Because I would feel abandoned.
Which, of course, you know, I think I've told you enough now already.
Like, that for me is, you know, don't leave me.
Whatever you do, stay.
Stay sick.
I don't care.
I don't care how sick you are.
Stay with me.
You can't leave me.
Sorry.
No, I mean, I'm feeling extremely moved by this image.
Come back to me.
Come back to me.
You know, early in the relationship, Very early.
We were just newly married, and I got pregnant the old-fashioned way, by which I mean by accident.
And I found out I was pregnant while I was at work.
I was in a bathroom stall at Nickelodeon.
Oh.
And the first person I told was the guy at the deli because I needed a decaf.
It's a real New York story.
It's such a New York, you know.
Shout out to Abraham at the Starlight Deli, who was the first person who knew I was pregnant.
But I went home that night and I very tearfully said to him, I have something to tell you.
And I was a vegetarian when he met me because I had been through a bout of food poisoning.
So I was off meat.
And then when I was pregnant but didn't know it, I started eating bacon twice a day.
And I was like, I'm cheating on Jonathan with bacon.
And I went home after I had taken my pregnancy tests like three of them in the stall at Nickelodeon.
I was like, this can't be happening.
I went home and I very tearfully said to him, I have something to tell you.
And he said, what?
And I said, I'm pregnant.
And I've been eating bacon.
And he said, you've been eating bacon?
And I said, yes.
And I'm pregnant.
So we went to sleep that night.
We woke up the next morning.
And I...
Got up, I went to the bathroom, and I started crying.
And I thought, I cannot do this.
I can't do this.
I cannot have a baby.
And I woke him up from a sound sleep and said, listen to me.
I don't know who the hell I think I am.
I don't know who I thought I was that I could have this life.
I don't know who I've been playing at.
Girls like me don't get lives like this.
So here's what I need.
I want a divorce and I want an abortion.
And this is over now.
I cannot live through this, because I will have this baby and it'll turn you into a father and fathers leave and I can't do it.
I can't do it, Jonathan.
So I want an abortion and I want a divorce.
And he sat with me and he said and this is anything else you need to know about Jonathan, you will now learn.
Jonathan said to me, look, If you want an abortion, I will take you for an abortion today.
If you want a divorce, I will give you a divorce.
But here's the thing.
He's like you know that thing in Winnie the Pooh where the character says if you live to be 100, I want to live to be 100 minus one day.
And he said, Stephanie, here's the thing.
I will sit on the stoop if that's what it requires, but if you live to be 100, I'm going to live to be 100 plus one day, so that you never have to be without me, because I am the man who's never going to leave you.
And I said, okay, we'll have a baby.
Yeah.
That was it.
I said, okay.
I'll have, let's have the baby.
And this is how your daughter was born.
That's how Emmy came.
That's how Emmy came.
Yeah.
Once Emmy was born.
How did you talk about, you know, Jonathan Dadd's Depression with her?
Mm-hmm.
Often.
Really?
Yes.
From what age?
Always.
Wow.
So I grew up with secrets.
Because of this, and it sort of doesn't matter what the secrets were.
The point is, there were many, like, jump scares in my own growing up.
Like, what?
Yeah.
What do you mean grandpa isn't your father?
So it was really important for us that there be no secrets in our household.
Privacy.
Absolutely.
Everyone is entitled to their privacy.
No question about that.
But not secrets.
No jump scares.
So how would you talk about depression with a really young kid?
We called it the big blue.
The big blue.
Yeah.
Wow.
We called it the big blue.
We drew pictures of it.
And we talked about how sometimes dad, you know, dad has a kind of sadness called the big blue.
And sometimes the big blue is little.
And it just kind of flutes around with him.
And he can be like.
Quit it, Big Blue.
Get out of here.
Scram, you.
Other times, Big Blue wraps itself around Dad.
Other times, the Big Blue is so big that you can almost not see Dad.
But Dad is always there.
Dad, you can always find Dad.
You can always see Dad.
But sometimes the Big Blue is a little bigger than Dad, and we have to give him lots of love.
Lots of understanding during those times.
Yeah, and he was her primary caretaker.
And, you know, we raised her together, obviously, but I worked full time.
And he stayed home with her and took care of her and took her to the doctor and he was the school parent and you know he did all this stuff.
While depressed, because you can live a life depressed.
You know, that's the other thing.
Like people talk about depression as oh, that's when I was depressed, almost like it was a, you know, an individuated time.
Yeah, a chapter in your life that you can enter and then leave.
It's not.
You know, you were just a person who lives with depression, the same way you live with any chronic illness.
Hmm.
You know, it doesn't have to be a time in your life that is secret and it doesn't have to be something to be ashamed of.
Where was your mental health at this time?
So the toilet is really the answer.
And, you know, I mean, that sounds facetious.
I never actually stopped to think about my mental health.
Everything rested on me.
A lot of things got done.
You know, everybody's life was very easy because I was a pretzel turning myself in and out.
Everybody had health insurance because I worked to stay employed.
And big jobs, you know, because I was our sole breadwinner.
And I wanted us to have a certain kind of life because it mattered to me.
I like a nice blanket.
And you wanted your family to be comfortable and have those blankets as well.
Yes, of course.
You were...
You were handling it.
Correct.
I mean, he was at home with Emmy, certainly.
So you had your parts.
But you were really... You were the one who was keeping the plate spinning.
Yes.
I mean, you know, I joke... about if there is a form to fill out, they both come.
You're going to be filling out the form.
Literally, I have been in meetings like in London and someone will send me a note.
What is my password?
Oh, my God.
No, I mean... But I know.
It's the thing.
It's like, hold on.
I have it.
Like, I do have your... That's the thing.
I have your password.
And I do know how to log into the MAX.
And I also... Yes, I did file the taxes.
And I did pay the insurance premium.
And yes, the mortgage is on autopay.
But...
When you live your life that way, there's so little softness.
You know, the margins are so thin because I always felt And I don't know that I could have articulated this before very recently.
If I made a misstep, the whole thing fell down.
That is a lot of pressure, Stephanie.
And when I say the whole thing falls down, I mean the schools.
Emmy, goes to the way we live our life, the way we spend our money.
You know, I want to take us back for a moment.
You know, I said to you as a younger woman, I was constantly like auditioning for my own life.
Love me.
I'm worthy.
I'm someone like choose me.
That never really stopped.
You know, there was still this nature of, I will be the most competent employee.
I will be the most loving wife.
I will be the most excellent mother.
Look at the summer camps.
Look at the private college.
Look at the dog goes to daycare.
Look at our home. in the bougiest Brooklyn neighborhood that ever bougied.
Look at us going to Cape Cod for two weeks.
Like, it mattered because it mattered to me That they feel my love in these tangible, provable ways.
It sounds like family life, life at home, was relatively stable for quite a while.
Tell me when that changed.
So...
In 2023, Jonathan called me at work to say, yeah, I'm not feeling so well.
I think I might be having a heart attack.
I'm going to go to the hospital.
And he had multiple pulmonary embolisms And he was discharged from the hospital.
He came home.
He was on blood thinners, follow up with, you know, with doctors.
And we were supposed to just go on with our life.
And he just it was an existential crisis for him.
He recovered physically, but emotionally he just got darker and darker and more and more frightened and more and more sad.
He did an intensive outpatient program.
He did ketamine therapy.
He did EMDR.
I mean, he just was so traumatized by the existential fear of this.
And I mean, I don't pretend to know exactly what happened, whether it was a chemical reaction or but he just kept slipping farther and farther away.
And, you know, we talked about the doc.
It was the first time I couldn't see him.
Stay with us.
You've described that he's getting farther and farther away from you.
And I wonder if you can bring me into the morning where you almost lost him.
He had been doing therapy online.
Hmm.
And I heard him shrieking during his therapy session, crying and shrieking.
I am not proud of this, but I recall I was sitting at my desk.
I was working from home and I was like, oh, God, what now?
Because I was angry.
Yeah.
But I was also really scared, you know?
And I felt defeated because we had done everything.
And I thought, oh my God, like, what is there left to do?
And I remember thinking like, And is he going to come back?
I mean, it was terrifying.
And he said, I have to go or I'm going to hurt myself.
I have to go.
I'm going to hurt you.
I'm going to hurt Emmy.
I have to go.
I have to go.
Had you heard him say anything like that before?
Never, ever, ever.
Were you scared?
Yes.
Yes.
And it was, you know...
Come for me.
All right, maybe we go down together, you and me.
It wouldn't be the worst thing.
You come for my daughter.
If there's a choice to be made, my friend, I choose her.
But this is impossible.
Impossible.
Because this is your husband.
Correct.
Who you love.
Yes.
The thought that he, the love and tenderness and kindness and devotion he has shown to both of us, the exquisite care he has taken with both of us.
I watched him raise her.
The fact that this man, this gentle, loving man would say, I'm scared I'm going to hurt myself.
I'm scared I'm going to hurt you.
I'm scared I'm going to hurt her.
I was scared to death.
Did you talk to Emmy about what was happening?
Yes.
I went into Emmy's room and I said, here's what's going on.
Okay.
And, you know, when she was 12, I remember saying to her, like, dad's having a real rough big blue.
And she's like, mom, I know it's depression.
It's like not Santa Claus.
Yeah, it's like, I get it, you know.
So I went and I said, listen, dad's having a really rough time.
And she said, oh, I heard.
And I said, I'm going to take dad to the hospital, walk the dog.
I'll be back as soon as I can.
And Emmy said to me, mommy, are you okay?
And I said, oh yeah, I'm fine.
I'm fine.
Everything's fine.
Don't worry.
Everything, I'll be back.
I'll be back later.
I love you.
I'll see you later.
So off we go in our Lyft to NYU Hospital.
We walk in the doors.
And let me tell you, you walk up to the front desk and they say, why are you here?
And you say, I'm afraid I'm going to kill myself and my family.
Boy, oh boy, you do not have to sit in triage.
Noted.
Noted.
Yeah.
So the social worker comes flying in.
And we are taken into a room.
He doesn't even look like himself.
The physical changes that came over him as a result of this depressive episode were really astounding.
I talked to you about his kaleidoscope eyes.
Flat brown.
His posture changed.
He's like six feet, 6'1", 6'2", around there.
He was all hollowed in, short, small.
He seemed like a shadow of himself.
I don't know how else to describe it.
Everyone was wonderful.
They sat him down and, you know, they have to do the entry and they ask you the horrible questions.
Have you ever thought about hurting yourself?
Yes.
Have you ever thought about hurting others?
Yes.
Who have you thought about hurting?
My wife, my daughter.
What are you thinking?
I'll get a gun.
Oh, my God.
I'll shoot them and I'll shoot myself.
And you're in the room.
Yes, I was in the room.
That is so intense.
Yeah.
And I was holding him.
I was holding him.
And he was like, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
And I said, no, no, no, no.
It's all right.
This is the place to say it.
This is the place to say it.
So this was basically the worst case scenario.
Yes.
Every worst.
Well, I guess not the worst case in the sense that he did something to himself, but him having these thoughts is the extreme end of anything you've seen from him.
It was one step from the worst.
The worst is that he hurt himself and me and me.
Well, the real nightmare is he hurt himself in Emmy and left me alone.
That is endgame.
We were two steps from Endgame.
And I am so grateful to him for reaching out from the dark and saying, help me.
Help me.
I cannot pretend anymore that I'm getting better.
I am not getting better.
Help me.
Were you worried about if he, as Jonathan, would ever come back to himself?
Yes.
Oh, yes.
I...
And I remember thinking things like, I don't think I ever want to date again.
I don't think I ever want to.
Wow.
Yeah.
So you're going into the, like, you divorce type or you break up type thing.
Long-term planning.
I mean, every possible scenario.
But the thing is that can be very useful when you're producing an event, for example, or writing a campaign, or doing message testing.
You know, all the things I do in my work.
It can be very useful to think what happens if the truck with the costumes breaks down on the highway.
Mm-hmm.
It is not so useful for your brain to run every possible scenario when what you need to do that night is comfort your daughter and take care of your dog and set up the coffee.
And how about let work know that your entire life just fell apart and maybe you won't be there tomorrow?
Did you not let them know that?
I went to work the next day.
Oh my gosh.
Mm-hmm.
Because I'm okay is my brand, right?
Competency, holding it together, keeping it together.
How long did Jonathan stay in the hospital?
Two weeks.
Two weeks.
Yeah.
And when he came home, what was the situation?
You planned for all these different situations.
What was the actual reality of the situation?
So while he was in the hospital, you know, they retitrated all of his medicine.
But the most important thing they did for him was he went through 13 rounds of ECT.
And that is?
Electroconvulsive therapy.
And ECT has a terrible reputation.
Mm-hmm.
As being torture, the last resort.
So, you know, people think of ECT as a nightmare.
It actually was exactly what he needed.
And Emerson referred to it as, oh, they unplugged dad and plugged him back in.
Wow, it was that effective.
Yeah.
Yes.
That's amazing.
Pretty much, yes.
I mean, and you know, there are side effects.
There's some memory loss, but nothing if you put are so much more significant than any memory lapses.
He doesn't really remember the treatment.
He doesn't really remember being in the hospital.
He remembers me coming to visit.
I went and had dinner with him a couple of times and you would order from this menu and then meals would come on this cart.
And he had ordered ice cream for dessert and he offered to share his ice cream with me.
I remember thinking he wants to share his psychiatric ward ice cream with me.
Like, who is sweeter than this man?
And I said, no, no, you eat your whole ice cream.
That's for you.
In some way, he's back.
Yes.
He started to come back in the hospital.
And he continued with ECT on an outpatient basis after he came home.
So he came home after two weeks in the hospital.
Where were you, though?
Right.
So my reckoning finally arrived in early September.
I really thought I had pulled it off.
And by the way, can I just say, you had in so many ways.
In many ways I had.
You really had.
But let's just say, so I'm giving you much credit, you thought you pulled it off.
I really had thought I pulled it off.
You didn't even take a single day off work.
I think I took a few days off from work.
I do.
I took a little time off from work.
I definitely took time off to go bring Emmy back to school.
So now it's early September and Jonathan's home and Emmy's at school.
And so, you know, I'm at work and I really felt like I did it.
You know, I held it all together.
And I received some feedback from people I respect at work that would indicate the contrary.
And, you know, without getting too deep into the details, it really rattled me.
Because if I wasn't the one who held it all together, number one, who would?
And number two, who was I?
And I received the feedback with graciousness because feedback is a gift, I believe.
I sat with it for 24 hours.
And then, 24 hours after I had this conversation with these people who I really respected and whose opinion I cared about, I started crying and I couldn't stop.
I was in the shower.
And I had—I never really understood when people talk about like oh, I had a flashback or oh, I got triggered.
You know, we use these words now, and it's like—I never really knew what it meant.
I mean, I would never doubt anybody's experience, but I also was like— You hadn't lived it.
I hadn't lived it.
I was like, what's that like?
I was in the shower, and I got a visceral picture of Jonathan—
On the ward, in soft pants and a soft shirt and socks, and I started weeping.
And then I felt like I couldn't stand up anymore, and so I got down on my hands and knees in the shower, crying.
And I thought to myself...
Oh, dear, I think maybe I'm not okay now.
And I screamed for him.
And Jonathan came.
He's like, what's happening?
What's happening?
And I said to him, you went to the psych ward.
It's like it just hit me.
And he said, but I'm here now.
I'm here now.
I said, but you went to the psych ward.
Like it all, it was almost as if I wasn't actually living it when I lived it.
And it all showed up in that moment.
So he helped me out of the shower and he wrapped me in a towel.
And I was I mean the physicality of it like I never really understood the physicality of this kind of a mental health crisis either.
I was freezing cold, shaking, nauseous, couldn't get warm.
Thankfully, you know, I have a doctor who I really trust and I sent him a note and said I think I might not be all right.
And he got back to me immediately.
He called in a prescription.
You know, we...
We knew how to get to end.
I was like, should we call the... There is a really interesting role reversal here, of course.
Yes.
With Jonathan comforting you.
Yes.
And how did that feel to be on that side?
It's terrifying because this idea of like trusting someone else to take care of me.
What do you mean you're going to take care of me?
I take care of me and you.
And you and the dog and everyone at work and the assignment and the clients and the project.
Oh, the board at the building also need.
I will do that.
What?
Someone in the neighborhood need.
Yes.
And also, yes, I sent in the taxes.
I did it.
So this notion of like, and it's a control thing, right?
Like if I give myself over to you, will you do a good job of taking care of me?
So that was number one, you know, this fear of, like, can I try?
And also, like, are you okay?
Are you okay?
Yeah.
Are you okay to handle my not okay?
I was like, do we need, like, a joining room at NYU?
Like, what are we up to at this point?
Like a couples suite.
Yeah.
Do you have a couples rate here?
That's so funny.
At NYU Psychiatric.
That's funny.
So I, you know, I spoke with my doctor and he said to me you must tell them at work.
You are taking some time.
Yes.
And I said, oh, no, that, no, just give me more medicine.
And he said, no, no.
You must speak with them.
And I said, no, no, I'm fine.
And he said, no, you are not.
You need to take FMLA, which is Family Medical Leave Act, you know, extended protected leave.
And I said to this man while crying, because I still was crying, I just didn't feel so horribly activated.
I said, no, no, that's for sick people.
And he said, Stephanie...
You are sick people.
Yeah.
I said, no, no, I'm not sick people.
He said, yeah, you are.
And I ended up taking 10 weeks.
I mean, it does strike me that you know we've spoken about how much your competency, your work, defines you.
So taking time off is a big deal for you.
It was the scariest thing I've ever done.
And admitting that you are not okay and admitting that you need help, and accepting care.
How did Jonathan step up?
Well, here's the thing.
Beautifully beautifully, Jonathan Stepped in with love, with support, and all I wanted to do was sleep and walk the dog.
I did pretty intensive somatic trauma reprocessing therapy twice a week, which was exhausting to the point where
I would have to lie under a weighted blanket afterwards.
I went to physical therapy because my body was all screwed up from years of holding myself in real tension.
So, you know, I was really, I was on medical leave.
It was not a vacation.
And Jonathan tended to me.
And I thought, it's true.
You came back.
You know, this is the thing that, this is the miracle at the heart of all of it.
That someone kept their promise.
And...
And even when I fell apart, you know, it's suddenly all of it.
You know the whole story from that auditioning to be the girl who wears a bandana as a shirt, 20 years ago in the EMS.
I still can't wear a bandana as a shirt.
I cannot wear a bandana as one half of a bra at this point.
Not only could I be... And this was really me at my worst.
I was not good.
I was not okay.
I didn't look good.
I didn't feel good.
He had to remind me to eat.
He had to remind me to drink.
I mean, the only thing I could reliably do was shower.
And then I would sleep and he would let me sleep.
And...
In that time, you know, in those 10 weeks when Emerson was at school and it was just the two of us at home, we got well together.
I don't know how else to say it.
We tended to each other.
We took the dog for walks and we took care of each other and we looked out for each other and I let him help me and I let him take care of me.
I've never let anyone do that in my whole life.
And then it was Thanksgiving and we hosted Thanksgiving.
Wow.
Yeah.
You did?
We did.
And well, it's the cheesiest question in the world, but can I ask, you're looking around this Thanksgiving table?
At Jonathan, at Emmy, after getting well.
Mm-hmm.
With the love of your life.
Mm-hmm.
What are you thankful for?
Well, that's the thing.
I am thankful to have broken.
I am thankful to have broken.
I am thankful that I could open my teeny, tiny Brooklyn apartment to the people who I love so much where literally, we were rearranging chairs so that people could go to the bathroom.
I mean, it was hilarious.
And we put on a feast.
And here we all were.
There was no, you know, I had made such a point my whole life, like Emerson will live in truth.
But she wasn't.
Because I was pretending to be okay when I wasn't.
And Jonathan was pretending not.
To be better than he was.
Mm-hmm. with us, where there is nothing but love.
It is not perfect.
We are not a Norman Rockwell family.
We will never be a Norman Rockwell family.
Everyone is on some kind of antidepressant or anti... There's Prozac in the wine.
Do you need ADHD medicine?
We have that.
Do you need anxiety medicine?
We have that.
Does someone need an antidepressant?
We've got that too.
God.
But...
Having fallen apart, both of us, there is now... I no longer... worry, he will someday disappear.
Because I know for a fact, without fail, this man will always come home to me.
He's not going to leave me.
He always comes back.
I want to return to this image I created I love so much, which is this image of the doc.
Yeah.
And I wonder, after all this, is that still the image for you?
Is there a different one?
Has the doc changed in any way?
No, it's still a doc.
But I feel him beside me now in a way I have never felt him beside me.
And the dock is there.
I mean, it's there.
And I don't know that, look, I might get on it one day.
I mean, you know now that I have taken a walk down the dock myself and I did not like it and I was really happy to come back.
But, you know, once you walk down the dock, the dock doesn't disappear.
The dock is always there.
Right.
But for now, today, we're on the ground together.
We're not on the dock.
We're living.
We're living our lives.
We are on the other side of it.
And there's something so liberating about when the worst thing happens and you get up and make the coffee.
You take the dog for a walk.
The worst thing happens and still life goes on.
And if you are lucky, the ones you love come back.
Stephanie, thank you so much for this conversation.
Thank you for having me.
I really, I'm so honored to have been invited.
Speakingofsuicide.com slash resources for a list of additional resources.
If you want to read Stephanie's modern love essay that inspired our conversation, look for the link in our show notes.
The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis.
This episode was produced by Elisa Gutierrez.
It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant.
Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez.
Original music in this episode by Alicia Baitoup, Rowan Nemistow, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker and Dan Powell.
Dan also composed our theme music.
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes.
I'm Anna Martin.
Thanks for listening.
