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You might notice we're not in our typical studio.
And that is because I am in the city of Toronto.
And while I was here, I just could not pass up the opportunity to talk to author, Ashley Audrain.
And let me just say what this conversation is not going to be about.
This conversation is not along the theme of, ugh, motherhood.
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Right? Right. That is not what we will talk about.
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We're going to talk about so many different things but let's just start kind of with you.
You have these two books right here, The Push.
We have The Whispers.
And they're both books that like really touch on modern motherhood and kind of the dark sides of motherhood.
And so, what led you to start writing?
Well, thank you for having me.
First of all, it's really a thrill to chat with you.
So I, you know, I'd always wanted to be a writer.
I was doing something completely different with my life.
I was working in public relations.
And, you know, I think I when it comes down to what what to write about, like what to spark the initiative to write.
For me, that was motherhood.
And I had always sort of had this fascination with motherhood long before I decided to have children myself.
I remember being younger and sort of looking at the mothers around me, my own mom, and my aunts, and the mothers of my friends.
And really having this awareness that it can't be exactly what it looks like.
You know, it always felt like this, there was a performative aspect to it to to it, you know, even as a young girl.
I remember thinking that.
And I remember thinking like, Why do women do this?
You know, why do women become mothers?
And why do they want to and what does it really feel like?
So I'd always been quite fascinated and then and was and went into motherhood myself with a lot of trepidation.
I wasn't sure if I was going to like it, or if it would be for me, or what it would be like.
But you know, as as we know, life happens, and You're in a relationship.
And we decided it was, we were going to do this.
We're going to have a baby, and we're lucky to be able to.
And then everything sort of went fine for the first pregnancy and fine for the first two weeks, and then first two weeks after my son was born.
And then when he was two weeks old, he became very, very ill, like overnight almost. He one morning just looked gravely ill.
and we rushed him to the emergency room at the Children's Hospital here in Toronto.
They took him right away and we could tell something was very, very wrong.
And soon after that, he was diagnosed with a serious chronic illness that eventually we knew he needed an organ transplant.
That really just rocked us.
You know, like really as we know motherhood to begin with is such a huge life change with so much emotion and so much going on and then to learn two weeks in that you have a child that is that ill, you know, and that your whole his whole life is going to you know this is going to be a part of him and us and her family forever was just was so heavy and it was so much. And I remember at the time, thinking you went through all kinds of emotions, of course, like, you know, scared and sad and worried and guilt and all of those things.
But as the weeks and months sort of unfolded, and we were living at the Children's Hospital and our lives were so all of a sudden so medicalized, I remember like really clocking this feeling of disappointment.
And as mothers, the one thing we are not supposed to feel is disappointed.
You know, you are only supposed to be grateful, and you are only supposed to see this as a gift and you know, all of those feelings were sort of taught to have. And while I loved and connected with this little boy with his baby like right away.
I was just I was had such conflicting feelings about what motherhood was for me and what that was going to be like.
It looked and felt nothing like what society had told me it would feel like.
And so I guess he was probably around six months old, and I started to get my footing again, and we weren't at the hospital so much, and life was sort of starting to come back.
And I remember thinking, I need to right my way through this.
I need to right my way through these feelings, and through this whole experience.
And so that I started writing then what became the push.
Mount became my debut novel and I think at that time I just wanted to write about the darker side of motherhood.
I wanted to write a story about a woman for whom motherhood was nothing like what she expected and nothing like what society told her it would be.
And so while my main character Blythe, her story is very different from mine, but all of that experience and emotion and all of that feelings I think are in that first book about her.
And I And I really since then, I really just been consumed with writing about this other side of motherhood, the other side of what it means to be a woman and in that role and the expectations that are put upon us.
I find that all fascinating, endlessly fascinating.
Well, let's let's actually start there with with the expectations.
But the expectations, what you said really struck me.
You saw this version of motherhood when you were a kid And there was a part of you that called bullshit on it internally.
So maybe that was, that felt performative and that I'm sure relates to kind of these general themes we all take in of what it means to be a mom.
Maybe it's like, what is a good mom like?
What does a good mom do?
What does a good mom feel?
What does a good mom think?
Yeah, a couple of things there.
like I think I really I think as I became a woman grew from a girlhood into womanhood, I think I really started to feel this pressure or this expectation that womanhood is motherhood.
You know that those two things are sort of like one like I didn't have many examples in my life, or I didn't see many women who chose not to be mothers like I personally like in my kind of sphere.
And it sort of felt like, oh, we equate these these two things like to be a good woman is to be maternal is like you go from girl to mom.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
And there wasn't really that, like to me, it was just, I remember the debate of whether or not to have kids or whether or not to become a mother.
And it sort of felt like, well, this is just what you're supposed to do, you know, and intellectually I knew better.
But emotionally I think I really was caught in that, you know, caught in that feeling of like this is just what you do.
And, and actually there's almost achievement in that, you know, as a woman, it being a mother felt like a sort of achievement for me that I needed to do or have or prove.
And so life sort of rolled that way.
I know we've you and I have talked earlier and I know you're doing such having such great conversations about this idea of the good girl.
And there is this also right alongside the idea of the good mother, you know, and what that is.
And And I think those two things really feed into, feed into each other.
What is the good, what is the good mother do?
Maybe we can go back and forth because I have I have something I I'll share first, you know, because I was actually talking about this with friends and we were kind of all laughing about it that you have kind of your kids class party announcement.
And they're like, here's the sign up for what everyone can bring.
And we were kind of laughing.
And I'll share this, and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna get paper towels for like the orange juice.
And then on the other end, there's like the homemade cupcakes or the, you know, and again, we're talking in extremes, there's so much nuance, right?
I think we know now, like we can feel grateful and disappointed at the same time, although society doesn't tell us that's true.
And so we don't live that truth even if our brain kind of says it to us.
And again, there are moments, you know, me too.
I can make the cupcakes.
And there are moments every parent hopefully gives themselves permission to be like, oh, I'm going to sign up for paper towels and the easiest thing before someone else does that.
But I guess to me, like the good mother, yes, like shows up at the bake sale with not the paper towels or not the home, you know, not the store bought chocolate chip cookies, but like the homemade cupcakes, and I don't know the icing probably looks really good.
And none of them toppled over, I don't know, the car, and like their kid didn't take a bite out of one and like put it back as like a prank or something like that.
So that's one version.
I'm curious what kind of conjures up for you?
Exactly that. It's so funny today, even this morning, I had an email from my daughter, she's she's in grade two.
And I had an email from her teacher that went to all the parents of the class saying we're going on a field trip next week.
And who wants to sign up for the field trip?
And I saw the email and I thought it's that it's that you cannot get rid of that voice in your head that says the Good Mother would sign up for the field trip.
Yeah, do I want to go on a field trip?
No, I don't want to go on a field trip.
And my daughter is gonna say to me, did you sign up for the field trip?
Yeah. And do I lie to her and tell her I signed up but I didn't get picked or do I be honest with her or how to handle this?
You know, it's because the reality is like, I don't want to go on that field trip.
What do you want to do that day?
I want to I want to write.
I just want to I want to write.
That is what I want to do that day.
And so do I say to her I didn't sign up and I'm going to write that day.
I'm going to work that day.
And how does she feel about that?
Or do I just say, Ashley, just sign up for the field trip and go?
You know, it's like that.
And it's so funny, too.
I was my sister just had a baby her first. And she was telling me about how, you know, the baby's only like two months old.
And so she's still at home and she's getting her bearings and she's tired and the sleeplessness.
And she had an afternoon where all she wanted to do was just sit on the couch and watch an episode of the housewives.
That's just all she wanted to do.
She's, you know, all we remember what those days are like.
And so she has said she put the baby next to her and she had her laptop and she opened her the laptop and turned on the episode of Housewives.
And of course she deserves to sit on the couch and watch an episode of Housewives with whatever she wants, whatever she wants.
But she said that she felt like the baby was watching her and she felt like the worst mother sitting there having this baby watch her.
Watch the Housewives and I and we were laughing, but I get it.
It's like from the very beginning, you feel like like nobody was actually judging her.
the baby is two months old, but you don't feel that way.
You feel like you're not doing the right thing.
You're not entertaining.
You're not engaging the baby.
The baby is watching you consume this reality TV show.
You're not going for a walk in the sunshine.
You know, it's like from the very beginning to now, you know, these examples that we're sharing with kids that are older, it's like, it's this prevalent thing.
You cannot get away from.
It's so hard, it's so hard to like, to do the thing that you want to do over the that you think you should do.
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I mean 50 -50 but just that both exist, any healthy relationship involves some amount of taking care of yourself and some amount of taking care of another person.
And sometimes there's this beautiful overlap where, wait, that's crazy.
like what I want for myself is exactly what you want from me and there's this beautiful synergy and yet most times there's not and so there's this give and take like I'm not getting the thing I want because I don't know making this up but I've never gone on your field trip for 18 years and today's the day I'm gonna do it and then there's let's say the other extreme of I've gone on every field trip for 18 years and I feel like I'm gonna scream and you know kind of go crazy and I'm totally losing myself and today's the first day I'm going to say not only did I not get picked honey I actually didn't
even sign up right so those are the two extremes.
But what I asked was, which comes more naturally, right?
And our Instagram is, I think it's like 92 % women.
Okay. And so I said, what comes more naturally?
kind of gazing in and taking care of your own needs?
or gazing out and taking care of someone else's needs?
What do you what do you what do you imagine?
What was the response?
Yeah. Out of 100 What was Oh, like overwhelmingly looking out.
Yeah. 90 90 Wow, right.
Wow. Yeah. And then this, you know, one of the things I think about with motherhood all the time.
And this, you know, and I was saying this to you earlier, where I think people used to say this about me and Good Inside.
And I'm kind of I hope people don't say this, like, known for the scripts for the tantrums. I love a good script for a tantrum.
I love a good script for bedtime.
I love a good script for a sibling argument.
We all need those tools.
But yeah, I actually really hope that's not what good insight is known for.
And instead of renowned for something, it's, it would be like women saying, I feel a lot more empowered and confident, you know, and I just happened to find that through my parenting journey.
But one of the things that really came up through this poll, right was I feel so guilty.
When I take care of myself.
self care feels selfish.
Yes, yeah. And I derive like my value, like my true value and worth, by taking care of other people.
Right. And that's all true here.
But then this other thing is true as well, which I find really interesting.
While we're getting that short term like filled up, kind of my old circuitry says I'm supposed to take care of everyone else and be a good girl, which means this kind of total self sacrificing moms, I gonna be one moment when something very, very small happens and I completely lose my shit on everyone and then what I always find extra unfortunate sense like we end up apologizing even though to some degree it's like wait a second right I'm apologizing for this moment yeah but there's a whole ocean kind of underneath that.
Yes I really relate to that I really relate to And I make as your as you're speaking, I'm thinking of this idea of like connected to something you mentioned earlier about like what is the good mother, you know, what what And I'm interested I'm so interested in how you would answer that question because sometimes I'll get that in when I was doing interviews for the push or for the whispers where you know, those those I think they're very real realistic portraits of mothers, the mothers in those books.
But they're not they don't always come across as the most likable women or the most likable characters, which is something we talk about a lot in fiction, like about women characters and female characters being likable or not.
But I would often get asked like, well, what is the character, a good mother?
And I and I did this idea of this phrase of the good mother.
It makes me feel like it makes me cringe.
It makes me feel icky in the same way that like a good girl does.
Yeah. And so often I really struggled with how to answer that question in interviews for a long time or when I was talking about the book.
And sometimes I would default to this idea of which I actually don't agree with now, but I used to sort of default this idea of it's someone who's trying their best. Are you are you always trying your best?
Well, then you're a good mother.
And now I actually I don't know if I believe that anymore because I feel like sometimes you're allowed to not always be trying your best, and that's okay.
And I think it's taken me a long time to acknowledge that or to feel that in myself as a mother.
I mean, it's what we're talking about, like, is giving your best, doing your best, bringing the nice cupcakes, like, yeah, is doing your best, bringing that?
You know, it's like is doing my best, going on the field trip?
Well, yeah, I could, like I could.
So it's like giving yourself permission to not be doing that or to not be behaving in that way.
But what do you think?
Like, so what's your first reaction?
is actually very similar to yours, which is like I feel like a cringe feeling.
Yeah, which I think whenever I noticed that and myself with a question, part of me has learned to trust. Like I just, I don't really want to answer that question.
I mean, the only way I would answer that question is, what does it mean to be a good leader?
Because I think parents are leaders.
I mean, I actually think, you know what, honestly, what, what draws me every day to like want to continue doing this work at Good Inside is, is actually thinking about parenthood that way.
There's a lot of intention and effort and work going to understand leadership in the workplace and leadership in sports and we've actually kind of revolutionized how we think about those two fields like you really shouldn't yell at your employees anymore.
Not only because it's not nice, it just actually doesn't get the best out of them and berating professional athletes isn't the way to go, we should work on their self -talk and help whatever it is.
And yet with children, it's like the last area to like humanize.
And I guess I think about good leaders or what I would say is like a sturdy leader as someone who's able to be connected to themselves and connected to someone else at the same time.
That you have enough boundaries that you know what you want and that not in any given moment, like a field trip because that really limits how we define ourselves.
But let's just say over the course of time or some amount of time, a month of making that up.
I in general kind of know what I need.
And I can get my needs met.
So one of the things in the push that I that I kept thinking about, is I'm kind of on this tear, and the most extreme version that I don't even believe in.
But I'm kind of gonna say it just for impact is there's no such thing as maternal instinct.
And the reason I think that's a powerful thing to think about is I think there's just no other thing we do in life.
That's hard and important.
Like parenting, there's nothing else like that, that we tell people they should do solely on instinct.
Like it would be cruel to tell doctors, you know, you have an instinct for being an oncologist, maybe like, Oh, I probably should still go to medical school.
Right. And I think this idea of maternal instinct is what makes so many moms feel broken and like a failure when things are hard. Because if something should come on instinct alone, and if you're having a hard time, there's really only one explanation.
Something's wrong with you or something's wrong with your kid.
Having said that, I definitely believe that there are these moments of maternal or paternal intuition.
So there are these moments where like you just know, like, and I think sometimes you know something's going on with your kid and a doctor is like, they're fine.
And you're like, I just know not to leave this office, right.
And that plays out.
And I'm just curious how you think about instinct about intuition?
How that played out in the push?
How you think about in your own life?
Yeah, I mean, I, I wrote about this a lot in the whispers too, because like this just this idea of the whispers, you know, as it relates to women and mothers is, is that thing that you you do, I think that you really do have a knowing about things a lot of And I don't know if it's instinct, but it's a knowing.
It's like a knowing that you feel within yourself.
You know, it could be about your marriage.
It could be about a friendship.
It could be about your children.
And I think there's this idea that, you know, a lot of times with them, with that knowing or with these whispers that we have, it's like, they're sort of like always there.
And the question is more like, do you want to listen to them?
Like, are you open and willing to sort of listen to it or not?
And a lot of that comes down to, like, how much we trust ourselves.
Right. And how much we've been made to feel like we can trust ourselves or not, you know, and so much of this, I think, comes so much of it, I think, as women comes down to childhood and the ways that as girls were raised.
And I thought about this so much because I was never someone who I was not like, I didn't like to babysit.
I would I didn't love to, like, role play motherhood sort of stuff.
um, but, but I really notice like my daughter really does you know, it comes to her very, it comes to her more naturally than it ever did to me.
I can see that in her and have always seen that in her.
But I've also been very conscious about the way that I speak to her about that, because I think that we can often speak to young girls in a way that presumes their maternal ability, or presumes or interest in motherhood.
Like we might say to someone we might say to a little girl, like people would say to my daughter, oh, like when you're a mom, you'll see.
Oh well, when you are a mother, this this assumption that you will be one, you know, it starts that young.
Like we get the idea in her head that young you're gonna be such a good mom, a good mom.
Or I would say, you know, and I, I was guilty of this.
I write about this in the push because the main character experiences this.
But I would even say to like friends who were expecting, I would say, you're going to be amazing.
You're going to be a natural, you're going to be such a good mom.
And like you hear that over and over through your life as a young woman.
And so when it doesn't necessarily feel that way when it doesn't feel loud and clear for you as a mother.
You do start to doubt yourself and you do think something's wrong.
So I just think it starts so young and I know with my daughter I try to be so aware of that.
Yeah, that there can be you know that and again, it comes back to what we mentioned that tie between womanhood and other hood.
And yeah, that better be there that instinct better be there, you know?
Yeah, well, look, me and you both have these deeply feeling kids.
I know yours is your son, mine's my daughter.
But one of the things I think about her in terms of, you know, childhood and how that relates to adulthood and kind of confidence and trust is believing your kids experience.
So true. And a lot of what sort of I'd written about in The with life and the main character and her experience of motherhood is she is having doubts like she's having doubts about the way her child's behaving, like is she noticing things that she's she's having those those feelings of like gut feelings about sort of what's going on in the family and the dynamic.
And, and, you know, she certainly grew up in a way where nobody was telling her that they that she was never having that validation of her feelings or her experience.
And she very much carries that through to womanhood.
And then even her partner can't do that for her.
Even her partner never says, I believe you.
Yeah, he doubts her and her mother in law doubts her and everybody around her doubts her.
Because her truth is inconvenient.
You know, we're talking about, this is an inconvenient woman and she becomes that, you know, in that book that what she believes to be true is not convenient for anybody else around her.
And in fact it's uncomfortable.
And so there's no validation, there's no belief.
And so yeah, you can really see how as a child, like, just just programming a kid to, to know what that feels like, c believed, you could you could see how I mean, my hope is that my kids carry that through, and they don't have that doubt in themselves.
So they don't need the outside validation as much, you know?
I'm just thinking about that binary that, like, I don't love to think of binaries, I like to think that multiple things can be true.
And it does feel like this binary, like either, either I can prioritize what feels true.
Or I can be convenient to everyone else.
Yeah. And you often can't.
You often can't do both.
Right? And I think as women, yeah, like, being convenient, pleasing, being so attentive to everyone's needs that you can meet other people's needs, maybe even before they say them, which obviously requires you to completely self abandon any type of attention to your own needs.
We got a lot of we got a lot of reinforcement for that.
Right? Yes. Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I really feel that.
Um, I really feel that a I think when my kids were very, very young.
I had a really hard time with that.
And I don't think I did practice that.
I think, you know, I, my little piece of that was stealing a few hours every week to go right.
That was, we would have so lucky to have a babysitter come a few times a week and instead of doing the groceries for the family or going to a workout class that I knew I needed to do or cleaning the house or whatever it was, I really tried to fiercely protect those hours to run down the street to the coffee shop with my laptop and just write because I knew that's what I wanted to do.
I did not have a book deal.
I was not getting paid.
I was on maternity leave like I there was no financial incentive to do that.
There it was I just knew that I needed to do that for myself.
What was the feeling in you of writing?
How would you describe it?
Oh, it was a real freedom.
It was a real freedom, I think and I felt most myself when I was writing.
And I think the experience of motherhood especially sort of in those early days of like going through all the medical stuff and everything was so I did not feel myself.
And actually, you know, it's so interesting is that at the I mean, as we said, it's such a big identity shift anyways.
But I think this is very common of most children's hospitals.
But at the children's hospital, the staff who are just incredible, they cannot keep track of a child's name and all the parents names.
They just can't. It's not, it's hard. That is a hard thing.
And so they know your child's name, but you are always referred to add.
My son's name's Oscar.
So I was always referred to as Oscar's mum, Oscar's mum, mum, mum.
And so for months in the hospital, nobody ever said my name like you just need.
And so you it's just this real tangible, you know, a racing of kind of who you were.
And, and there's such that so that to me was so symbolic of this real loss of identity at that time.
But when I was writing, it was like back to me, it was just for me, I wasn't sharing it with anybody.
I never thought anybody would read this book or whatever it became you know was just an exploration of my own thoughts and ideas and all of that.
Now, there's such privilege in that I really acknowledge that there was such privilege and having a babysitter and being able to go do that, you know, during the day, sometimes like a couple times a week, but but that was that really, I think was like a taste for me of like doing having the thing I want being inconvenient, you know, the convenient thing would have been to get the groceries done into the laundry and help everybody else in the family.
But but as my kids have gotten older, like they're now seven and almost 10.
And I'm finding I am feeling we were talking about this feeling a little more space.
Yes, for that it becomes a little easier.
Yeah, a couple things I just want to say about that.
So So number one, um, this idea that when you do start to wonder about what you might want for yourself, or I describe it for me is like what lights me up inside, the feeling And like, it feels almost explosive in like a good way.
Like I feel, I don't know, I feel like lit up like the lightbulbs go on when I'm doing something that really fulfills me in that way.
Almost always it does go hand in hand with inconveniencing someone else, like very rarely do the stars line up when everyone's gonna like give you an applause or be like you go girl you deserve that just today.
And I just think, knowing that helps.
The other thing I want to say is that yes, you and I both have older kids, right?
Mine are 7, 10, 13, this is so much easier now.
Like just literally the hours they're out of the house.
Yes. You know, their ability to put on their own shoes and tie their own shoes.
The fact that, right, like if we don't have a snack when we're out, it's not kind of World War Three, like those things weren't true in my house years ago.
And the fact they are true now is literal more energy and space.
And the last thing I want to say and I think you and I probably both have heard this from women is people say all the time, okay, babysitter or no babysitter, I an hour to myself.
Why do I feel like I'm having a panic attack?
Yeah, I don't know what to do.
I don't know what I would like to do.
I don't know what would feel good, and this feels more anxiety producing and so I'm just gonna deep rage clean my house and yell at my kids when they're home and maybe my partner if I have one for leaving the house so messy.
Which by the way, I only say that because I used to be a pro in that pattern.
Okay, so just a couple of things about that.
And this is one of the things I actually talk a lot about in our program, which is one of the ones I'm proudest of, which I'm going to rename because it's not just about moms, but it is this kind of feminine kind of version of ourselves were told we have to be and how that leads to rage is if you had a friend who was starving, literally, they hadn't eaten in 10 days, or maybe, you know, 35 years, let's say, and they were presented with a menu.
And they were like, I just don't know what to order.
I don't No, nothing sounds good.
I don't know what I would like.
I don't even know what to do.
I know the advice we'd give them.
Just because you don't know what you want doesn't mean you shouldn't try something.
And it's the process of ordering something where you'll learn over time like, I like that wrap.
I did want a burger.
I did want a salad, whatever it was, but you would never tell a starving friend, well if you don't know what you want, Just don't order something right just donate and I think the freedom of like, I won't know what I like Until I dabble yeah, and it might take you 30 doubles.
Yeah where you're like I actually hate Watercolor painting why don't I even think that was me?
Okay, you know, you know, I do like to take a little walk around You know the block but I wouldn't have known that if I didn't give myself permission To try something and I know for myself when I adopted that attitude.
I just knew Rage cleaning maybe was on the menu but I just had a feeling it wasn't my best order.
Other things are like going to have a little bit more high potential.
And I feel like for anyone listening who's like, OK, Ashley, Dr. Becky, you guys have your lit -up things, like I don't even know.
That's OK. I think you and I probably both started there.
But just the freedom to try without knowing if you like it I feel like was a big kind of step more soon.
Thank you.
