Elizabeth, you know that this year I am hosting Thanksgiving for the second time.
Huge bucket list for me.
And one of the things that makes it easier to prepare for any kind of big gathering whether it's Thanksgiving or Friendsgiving or any kind of celebration is knowing that you can go to one place that you know you're going to get high standards and And good prices.
And this is why I love going to Whole Foods Market.
I can look for the 365 brand and I know that I'm going to get everything that I need and want for a good price, with the quality that I can count on.
Yeah, they have everything from low-price quality turkey to pantry essentials.
And Gretchen, I have to add frozen appetizers, which are perfect for someone like me who is not a great cook.
I love to get the quiche trio, their butterfly shrimp and breaded calamari.
It's all so easy to prepare and so delicious.
Enjoy so many ways to save on your Thanksgiving spread at Whole Foods Market.
It's time for Black Friday, Dell Technology's biggest sale of the year.
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Hello, we are here for More Happier, a podcast where we get happier.
It's the weekend.
We're kicking back.
Hey, Elizabeth.
Hey, Gretchen.
Happy post-Thanksgiving to all who celebrate.
We just had Thanksgiving here in the United States.
Yes, and happy birthday to our dad, whose birthday was yesterday.
Yes, some years his birthday falls actually on Thanksgiving.
Some years it does not, but it's always around Thanksgiving, which is super fun.
I wanted to let everybody know that enrollment is still open for my 2026 course.
The Happiness Project Revisited.
I loved running this in 2024 and I am bringing it back with a more on-demand self-paced format.
Please join me for a 12-month happiness project inspired by my 2009 book, with a different theme each month to support a happier healthier, more productive and more creative life.
One of the questions I'm asked most is what participants actually walk away with aside from 12 months spent making the active choice to pursue their own happiness every day.
By the end of the year, you will have created and tested at least 10 concrete resolutions, gained a clearer sense of what truly works for you, written your own set of personal commandments and built a happiness toolkit you can keep using long after the course is over.
Prices go up on December 1st, so this is your last chance to get it at 40% off.
Visit happiercast.com slash course.
But Elizabeth, what is something making us happier?
Well Gretchen, speaking of stuff, you're doing.
Something making me happier is your new podcast, Since You Asked that you're doing with Lori Gottlieb.
Oh, that's so nice.
We are having so much fun doing it, I must say.
So for anyone who doesn't know, it is a advice podcast.
What I love is how you have the different segments and that you get audience feedback. feedback.
Like you'll ask people in advance of an episode what they think about something and then you'll report how many people felt one way or another.
And for some reason, I just find that so interesting.
The thing is, I am exactly the same way.
I could read people's responses forever.
I never come to the end.
And what's interesting to me, and I'm so glad to hear that you like that aspect of the podcast.
I mean, I love the advice format, right?
It's like before and after.
It's just a format that I think is just really compelling.
But one thing that always frustrates me is, you would always just get one or maybe two people's response.
And sometimes you would think, oh, well, I would have seen it completely a different way.
Or sometimes what's really fascinating is when somebody has a completely different response and they show you a perspective that you would never have had.
And what is really fun since we've started the podcast is People will respond to someone's dilemma and they will show so many shades.
They're responding to different things, or maybe they're in the other person's shoes, right?
Like, oh, this person kept a big family secret, and then it's, oh, I have kept a secret.
Or I'm the one who, as an adult, found out the secret instead of finding out as a child.
Or, oh, somebody's really messy, and it's, oh, I'm the messy one.
You get all these different perspectives that I just think show us how people just walk through the world and having different responses.
Like, you just think, like, reality is reality.
People understand the situation the way I do.
And then you just see, no, they don't.
Yeah, there was one that was like, would you correct your friend's kids?
And the thing is, both sides are legitimate.
Like, when I hear you reading from one, I'm like, yeah, I agree with that.
And then the opposite, and I'm like, well, that makes sense, too.
I know.
Both can be true.
And I guess that's why, you know, the world is complicated.
Well, that's my secret of adulthood.
The opposite of a profound truth is also true.
I say that all the time.
That is one of my things I've taken from you.
Living in an atmosphere of growth, and that are probably the two things I refer to the most often from your work.
And of course, being an obliger.
And then for you, it's, I often quote you saying, yes comes right away, no never comes.
And no one has an opinion until someone else has an opinion.
Those are two of the ones that I quote you the most.
But it is really fun.
It's interesting just to hear what people say.
And yeah, so I'm really glad that you like it.
It's really been really fun to collaborate.
You and I both really love to collaborate.
Of course, my favorite person to collaborate by far never to be surpassed unless it is you.
But it is fun to collaborate with other people.
Yeah.
And Lori is a therapist.
So she's got the therapist angle, which you and I do a lot of stuff, not advice, but in the advice area.
But it's different because neither of us is a therapist.
So I appreciate hearing from her on that.
So anyway, I'm really enjoying that.
I'm always looking for podcasts.
So love having a new podcast, Gretchen.
I think I know every single thing about you and then you reveal something new.
That's how I feel when I listen to Happier in Hollywood.
I'm like, how did she, I didn't know that she did, that this happened.
Like, how did I not know?
Yeah.
I told a story the other day on Happier in Hollywood and mom said I didn't know the story about you walking into a pole.
You never told me that.
I never heard that story either.
I have to say I laughed out loud when you told that story.
Yes.
Karma, right?
It was the karma.
It was instant karma for my bad behavior.
Oh, that's funny.
That's funny.
All right, Gretch, what is making you happier this week?
Okay, this is silly.
So we were having some... My husband, Jamie, was having a gathering, like a work-related thing.
And I thought, just to spruce up the house a little bit, I'll get some orchids.
So I got a pot of orchids.
And I was thinking, how much I like orchids.
This is why I like orchids.
First of all, they are beautiful.
If you look at them, they are very strange.
The colors that orchids come... are absolutely gorgeous.
They're like the color of like Japanese kimono or something.
There is a on the corner of my block.
There is a flower shop and they often have very unusually colored orchids in the window.
And I walk by all the time because of walking the dogs.
And I just feast my eyes on these color combinations that are in these orchids.
It's beautiful.
And if you're not that much of a green thumb, they're pretty resilient.
They last a long time.
I think some people can get them to bloom again.
That's not my...
I have never done that.
I have never managed to.
I will say I've kept an orchid for a good six months or a year, thinking hey, maybe it'll bloom again.
Never has.
I'm sure there's more to it than just sticking it in a dusty corner and hoping for the best.
But I feel like they feel elevated.
They feel interesting.
Because a lot of times, if you have a beautiful bouquet of flowers, which I love, different ones drop their petals.
Some last longer than others.
So then you're going through it and picking out the ones that last.
And I think for some people, they really enjoy that.
Like, oh, it's three different vases because as it's shrinking, but I don't really like fussing with stuff that much.
Or maybe I do sometimes, but it's nice just to get an orchid and it's, here's the orchid, enjoy it.
It will last a long time.
And then they just very elegantly stop being orchids.
Here's my question for you, which you probably don't know the answer to, but maybe I'm sure we have listeners who do.
Is it true that the way to take care of an orchid is to just put like an ice cube in it once a week?
Have you heard this?
I have not heard that.
That would be amazing.
That is exactly my level of green thumbery.
It seems too good to be true.
I know.
I do it, but I don't know if it's helping the orchid or having any impact.
So I would love to hear from somebody who knows if this ice cube technique is accurate.
Okay, but so this is making me think of something completely unrelated.
Okay, so I have heard and again, this may not be true, but one of the things I've heard is that people are very inclined to overwater orchids.
That, in fact, you should really hold yourself back, because people just have this instinct to water an orchid.
And you know what this is making me think of is like how some people love to feed.
Like they love to keep plates.
They love to serve seconds.
They love to have a full pantry.
They just love that aspect of hospitality or just nurturing.
Like they just love to feed.
There's just a kind of person who loves to do that.
And I wonder if it's related to watering.
Because there is something where you're like, I feel so good just watering my plant.
Or like fish.
People tend to overfeed fish.
I remember when Eleanor had a fish like all over the fish food it was like do not overfeed your fish.
Because clearly people are like, oh, I'll just sprinkle some flakes.
It's fun to see them go to the top and get the food.
So interesting.
So yeah, orchids seem very undemanding.
Perhaps they're even less demanding than we think. the way that we treat them.
Want them to be.
Yes, exactly.
Interesting.
Okay, we know nothing about orchids.
I know nothing.
If I knew more, I'm sure the more we know, the more we notice.
I'm sure I would appreciate them even more if I studied them.
Maybe that should be on my 26 for 26 list.
There you go.
All right, Gretch, coming up, there is something you've been meaning to ask me, but first this break.
Listen.
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The holidays are such a joyful time, but let's be honest, they can also be a lot.
There's so much to cook, so much to clean, and unfortunately, so much food waste.
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This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace.
Gretchen way back when I started my other podcast, Happier in Hollywood, you told me Elizabeth, start a website.
And did I listen to you?
Not for a long time.
I do not want our listeners to do what I did.
Start a website immediately when you have a business or something you're interested in, because it will only help you.
And Squarespace is truly the perfect place to do that.
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Okay, Gretchen, what have you been meaning to ask me?
Okay.
This is a question that someone asked me, and it turns out that my answer was very unusual.
And so I want to ask you the question and see what you would say.
Okay.
So I was doing a Substack live conversation with Sari Botten and she has the really terrific Substack oldster.
And so she asked me the question, is there an age at which you feel most yourself?
Like your 19 year old self or your 37 year old self or whatever.
Is there an age like that where you feel most yourself?
And I was very puzzled by that question, because I've heard people say things like that, but I always thought it was metaphorical.
Think about your past.
And I said, I don't know what you mean.
Like I've been the same the whole time.
I've just been, I feel.
I'm sure it's not exactly true, but I definitely feel that if I went back to eight-year-old Gretchen I would feel very much the same.
I feel very consistent.
I don't have that feeling.
And she said, oh, that's extremely unusual.
Only a few people, and she asked this question to everybody she interviews, I think, or quite frequently.
And she said, almost, that's very rare.
And so I wanted to say to you, Elizabeth, do you have a sense of yourself at different ages?
No, I'm with you, Gretchen.
I feel exactly the same.
I don't feel that I've been different Now, here's what I will say.
Because of that, I can sometimes feel myself almost like fighting my circumstances, because I feel like maybe circumstances are wanting me to be different, but I am the same.
So there's a battling.
Oh, say more about that.
Well, for instance, being a mom, I don't feel different from when before i was a mom.
And yet, being a mom, there's a lot of things asked of you and i'm like battling about it because i'm like well, i'm not this person that now plans elaborate birthday parties, but yet i should be doing that, if you see what i'm saying.
No, i remember a friend of mine said she was like my son wouldn't.
She was a rebel, by the way but she said my son is like shooting a mustard through a straw at the wall.
And I know that I'm the one that's supposed to say you can't do that and go clean it up, but I want, I also want to shoot mustard through a straw at the wall.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Where you're like now there's a role that demands something of me, but my myself is still myself.
Yeah, so I don't feel that I have changed one bit.
I don't feel like you've changed.
Do you feel like I've changed?
I don't feel like you've changed.
No.
Not at all.
Of course, we've grown so much in wisdom.
We try to evolve and change.
But we don't really much.
No.
We should ask our parents.
If we think that they think.
But it's funny, because it's interesting, because in Life, in Five Senses, one of the things that struck me is that sometimes people who are colorblind often don't.
Remember, on our hike through England, our guide Jeremy, said he didn't know that he was colorblind until he was at an art exhibit where they were like playing with the idea of people being colorblind and he had no idea what was going on.
Yes.
And his whole family thought he was just kidding around.
He's like, I honestly don't see it.
So people who are colorblind don't realize it often until they're young adults.
People who lack a sense of smell don't realize that they have.
They lack a sense of smell.
And when you say to them what do you think people are talking about when they talk about how things smell yeah, they give an answer.
The way I gave an answer, which is I thought people were being metaphorical or I thought that they were talking in a kind of suggestive way.
I didn't think they literally meant it.
So then I asked this woman, Siri.
I said do you feel like you had a distinct self at this?
27.
And she's absolutely, she did.
And other people that I've talked to have said yes, I feel like there was my 19 year old self and there was my 40 year old self, and they were very different.
And they're different in terms of what they're doing.
My 23 year old self walked to work and went to aerobics at 7pm every night and did all sorts of things that my older self doesn't do.
But I felt very consistent in who was walking through those motions.
And I was sitting there going, look at me walking to work and going to aerobics.
Aren't I fancy?
You know what I mean?
And now I say, look at myself, like driving my son to school.
It's always myself observing what is happening around me.
Yes.
And it's the same kind of core self you feel.
Yes.
Yes.
But I don't feel like any of my friends have changed either, but maybe they feel differently inside.
I don't know.
Or just this idea that, yeah, that they have these different selves.
And I remember talking to a friend who was a novelist and she was writing about a young adult.
And I said, oh, how did you seem so tapped into that?
And she goes, oh, I can instantly put myself back into different stages of my life.
And I can instantly recall the music.
I listened to the friends that I had, the arguments that I had, the interests that I had.
And can slice and dice it, like, into these different times.
Whereas I feel like it's all just one big muff.
Interesting.
I'd say I'm halfway there on that.
I can totally remember the summer after senior year in high school and exactly what it felt like.
But I can't remember conversations.
I can't put myself back into conversations.
I wish I could.
I would love to relive experiences, especially like I have my friend Suzanne who died.
And I would love to be able to go back and just replay an afternoon with her in my mind.
Yeah.
But it's an interesting question.
It's a very interesting question.
I was astonished when she said that this was like a fairly unusual response.
So it's a good example of how you assume that other people are like you, unless it's pointed out that they're not.
Yes, exactly.
Okay, Gretchen, what is our spotlight on a tool this week?
Okay.
The biggest sale ever in the Happiness Project store is happening right now.
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It sold out last year, so get it now if you want it for 2026.
Everything is part of the Black Friday sale at happiercastcom slash shop, but only for a very short time.
Excellent.
All right, Gretch, coming up, there's something I've been meaning to tell you, but first this break.
Gretchen, it is the season of gifts, and you know I love personalized gifts.
Yes.
And you have been using Shutterfly many times a year for many years and I am planning this year to make Adam a Shutterfly book of just pictures of him and Jack through the years.
Shutterfly lets you easily create meaningful gifts from photos you already have, whether it's a photo book, which is what I'm going to do a blanket or even an ornament.
It's such a thoughtful way to connect with people you love during the holidays.
Yes, I often find myself making mugs, custom mugs, but there's so many things you can make.
You can make something that means something this holiday.
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Elizabeth, you know that this year I am hosting Thanksgiving for the second time.
Huge bucket list for me.
And one of the things that makes it easier to prepare for any kind of big gathering whether it's Thanksgiving or Friendsgiving or any kind of celebration is knowing that you can go to one place that you know you're going to get high standards and and good prices.
And this is why I love going to Whole Foods Market.
I can look for the 365 brand and I know that I'm going to get everything that I need and want for a good price, with the quality that I can count on.
Yeah, they have everything from low-price quality turkey to pantry essentials.
And Gretchen, I have to add frozen appetizers, which are perfect for someone like me who is not a great cook.
I love to get the quiche trio, their butterfly shrimp and breaded calamari.
It's all so easy to prepare and so delicious.
Enjoy so many ways to save on your Thanksgiving spread at Whole Foods Market.
It's time for Black Friday, Dell Technology's biggest sale of the year.
That's right.
You'll find the lowest prices of the year on select Dell PCs like the Dell 16 Plus with Intel Core Ultra processors.
And with built-in advanced AI features, it's the PC that helps you do more faster.
From smarter multitasking to extended battery life, these PCs get the busy work done so you can focus on what matters most to you.
Plus, earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping, expert support, price match guarantee and flexible financing options.
They also have the biggest deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC, improving the way you work, play and connect.
Whether you just started holiday shopping or you're finishing up, these PCs and accessories make perfect gifts for everyone on your list.
Shop now at dell.com slash deals and don't miss out on the best prices of the year.
That's dell.com slash deals.
And this November, BetterHelp is encouraging everyone to reach out and to check on the people that we love.
And you know, whenever I do this, whenever I reach out, I always think, why didn't I do this sooner?
And that's what people often say about therapy.
They wish they had reached out to a therapist sooner.
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Whether you're checking in on a friend or reaching out to a therapist yourself, BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step.
Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash Gretchen Rubin.
That's BetterHelp.com slash Gretchen Rubin.
Okay, Alyssa, what have you been meaning to tell me?
All right, Gretchen, I have been meaning to tell you about...
Something that's twofold.
So first of all, it is about Lena Dunham's substack, which is called Good Thing Going.
And Lena Dunham, for anyone who doesn't know, created the TV show Girls, which I love so much.
In fact, I just rewatched the whole thing, which I never do.
It's the first show I think I've ever rewatched.
I think I'm going to put that on my 26 for 26 list, because you've been telling me to watch it for years and I've resisted.
But You told me to watch Mad Men for years and then I watched it and I loved it beyond all measure.
So I've decided that's one of the things I'm going to do in 26.
Oh, good.
We can talk about it because I just saw all the episodes.
And then she also recently created Too Much, which I really liked, although not as much as Girls.
But anyway, I love her substack.
But there's an aspect of it which I really love that I wanted to tell you about, which kind of led me to have this realization, which is that sometimes she has people she knows suggest groups of books.
So it's book recommendations, but they'll be in a category.
And I'll tell you more about it, but what I've realized is that I love reading books in groups.
Meaning like... having similar themes or similar subjects, a group like that?
Yes.
For instance, I remember one time Elle magazine was like if you like reading about young women in New York in the late 50s and early 60s, read these books.
It was like Marjorie Morningstar, I remember, was one of them.
Valley of the Dolls.
Sure.
I was the same game as Valley of the Dolls.
Yes.
I read this whole group of six books, and it just gave me such pleasure.
Oh.
But I haven't really had an arena to discover groups of books like this, but that is what people do.
So, like, a recent one was Richard Rushfield, who's an entertainment writer.
He did a group, and he was like, I like the aimless and misdirected, talking about people.
So here are my favorite books about the young and confused.
Okay.
And a couple of them I'd read, like Less Than Zero by Brett Easton Ellis.
I'd read...
The Secret History by Donna Tartt, I'd read.
But then there's another one All My Friends Are Gonna Be Strangers, by Larry McMurtry, that I hadn't read.
So I said, oh, I love these other books.
I'll probably like this too.
And then it's a similar world.
Yes.
So I don't know.
It's just such a fun way to go about reading.
Yeah, they do.
I subscribe to the magazine The Week.
I actually get the paper magazine.
And they do this.
They will invite a writer- to provide.
It seems like anything they want, like novels set on submarines or, for instance, I love novels set in monasteries and convents, like that could be a theme.
And it's funny, it's like they are unified in one way, but then in the other way they're very different from each other.
So that's very different from like, here are five Iris Murdoch novels to read.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And another thing I like about it is that in this sense, They could be from different times.
Like one that he recommended was published 100 years ago, and one might have been published 20 years ago.
So I like that you can discover books that you would have otherwise missed if you're just paying attention to what's happening now.
That's one of the reasons I love listening to the podcast Backlisted or Secret Life of Books, because because they are shining a spotlight on really outstanding books that are older.
So they're not.
People aren't talking about them all the time, but that doesn't mean that if you read them, you wouldn't love it.
Do people know about The Secret History by Donna Tartt?
This is a book which is like, this is a really exciting novel.
It's got a massive twist.
It's set in a college.
It's for young people.
There's a mystery.
It's like, there's a charismatic professor.
There's so much to like about that book, but maybe people now.
It was a huge sensation when it was published, but that was a long time ago now.
But people would love it now if they read it now.
So this is a way to surface those books so that people don't overlook something that they would love.
Yeah, it reminds me, Gretchen.
Remember I read Rivals recently, which was a big bestseller in England.
Because I was looking back at huge 80s bestsellers and wanting to just... see what was out there.
And I hadn't read that in the 80s.
And so now I have.
I thought, if you listen, because some podcasts that I was listening to, they mentioned The Mists of Avalon.
And I was like oh, I wonder if Alyssa is going to read The Mists of Avalon, because I feel like that's in that time period that you're going back to.
Yes, I think I did read that, but I don't remember anything about it.
Right.
Just those like really long novels that everybody loved.
Yeah.
Yes.
Do love a saga.
And I love a theme.
That is super fun.
And then I bet it's more if you read them together also, then you notice things or you learn something.
It's a deeper experience because you're seeing all different perspectives on something that's the same.
Yes.
And I also have to say because it's Lena Dunham everyone she knows is like super smart and interesting.
So I've interested in the people who are recommending the books.
Sure.
That's always interesting.
It's always interesting.
If somebody else really likes something, I'm always interested in it.
If it's like an identifiable person, we're like, huh, it's interesting that they like that.
Also what I like is, let's say that there's a list of five books.
If you've read three and you like three of them, then you can probably be sure that you would like the other two, because you know the person's taste.
Whereas if you've read none of them, or you've read two and you didn't like really either one of them, then you're like okay, I'm going to skip this list because this person has taste that's different from mine.
So I feel like it's also you can test how valuable the recommendations are to you idiosyncratically.
Yes.
So anyway, that was my recommendation slash my realization about myself.
Yeah, interesting.
I think the same thing's true for me.
And Elizabeth, I have to mention that we have Substacks too.
You have a Substack.
Oh, yes, we do.
Happier in Hollywood.
Now I have a Substack.
Secrets of Adulthood.
So get in there, get your Substacks.
There's so much good stuff there.
There really is.
Go to Substack, everybody.
Okay, Gretch, what is our secret of adulthood this week?
This is the secret of adulthood that I was thinking of because of the holiday season, because I think that this is something that many people perhaps think about during the holiday season.
After my book Secrets of Adulthood came out.
I have to say this secret of adulthood is one of it is one of the ones that people will quote back to me the most often.
So it does seem like it strikes a chord with people, which is we care for many people we don't particularly care for.
That is a good one, Gretch.
So, Elizabeth, are you feeling happier?
Yes, I am feeling happier.
Thank you to Chuck.
Bye, Gretch.
Bye, Elizabeth.
The best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago.
The second best time is now.
So Elizabeth, do you ever feel overwhelmed by your to-be-read list, like as you're collecting all these books that you want to read?
Sometimes I almost feel panicky when I think about all the books that I want to read.
Yes, but you know what?
I don't feel a particular pressure to get to them all.
They're just, they're there.
I think a listener said it's like a library.
The to-be-read stack is like a library that you can pick from when you will.
So, I don't feel overwhelmed.
Oh, that's good.
That's good to hear.
From the Onward Project.
Hi, Gretchen.
Craig Robinson and my little sister Michelle here.
We host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson.
We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you.
You know, Gretchen, a lot of our listeners are going through some major life changes.
What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions?
Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you.
Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective.
So consider questions like this.
What activities take up my time but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me?
Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else but is not very important to me?
If I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose?
And here's a question.
Would I like to have more time in solitude restorative solitude or would I like to have more time with friends?
You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier.
With greater self-knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves, our own nature, our own interests, our own values.
In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition.
For more great advice, search for I Am O with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson, wherever you get podcasts.
You can listen to Issa Rae on letting go of certain friendships, Kiki Palmer on why disappointment is actually the key to career success, Seth and Lauren Rogan on caring for aging parents, and so many more.
