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Hey cuties, it's Marielle.
Happy Valentine's Day.
now when you hear valentine's day you probably think chocolates and roses dim lighting and mood music here at life kit we'd like you to add something to that list money we want you to talk about money with your partner or whoever you're dating yeah maybe it's not the sexiest topic especially if you
don't have a lot of money but it is a huge factor in relationships Shea Harris -Pierre is a licensed professional counselor and certified financial therapist, and she says couples have all kinds of disagreements about money.
There's my partner spends too much, or I don't want to spend money in this way, and my partner wants to spend money in that way, and it's not important to me.
My partner doesn't know a lot about money or didn't come from the same kind of lifestyle or background that I do, a lot of couples end up in my office when it comes to parenting and how they want to talk to their kids about money or how they want to build their life together.
Do we want to pay for our kids' college?
Do we want them to, you know, pay for it themselves?
Or like those transition times are also a big moment of conflict for couples as well.
Whether you're in a committed relationship or just on a first date, if you're in the realm of romance, money is going to come up and we need to know how to talk about it.
On this episode of Life Kit, I talked to Shay about the different values and personalities people have around money, how those can create conflicts in romantic relationships, and how we can start to understand our partner's money perspectives and figure out whether we're compatible.
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what are some of the different values that you find people have around money i tend to really fall back on the for money scripts in some work that i believe the klontz brothers have done over the years they kind of narrowed it down to four main money scripts and those are money avoidant, money status,
money worship, and money vigilant.
We can all exhibit some of these beliefs or behaviors in one way or another, and none of them is more adaptive or maladaptive than the other.
It's all about balance.
I'm curious to hear what each of them mean.
Yes. So money avoidance is the idea that money is bad.
And because money is bad, I have to distance myself from it.
Money makes me nervous because money causes issues or there's never enough of it.
or, you know, I witnessed my parents always fighting around money and what that can look like behaviorally is what some people call noble poverty.
The idea that I have to not make a lot of money because if I do make a lot of money or if I do have money, then that means that I'm a bad person.
Then there is money status.
You know, my self -worth is my net worth.
So the more money I make the better person I am or the more important I am.
People with money status as their kind of core money script also see their worth in relationships as being connected to how much money they have.
And so the more they're able to show that they have things, that they have the nicest stuff, the more in their mind people will respect and revere them and want to be around them.
So it's less about just kind of being flashy for the sake of being flashy.
Money status is often really connected to wanting to be connected to other people.
All right. And what's the third one, money worship?
Yeah. Money worship is the idea that money is everything, whereas money avoidance is, you know, money is bad.
I don't ever want anything to do with it.
Money worship is the opposite.
The more I have money -wise, the happier I'll be.
And so these people show up in the world as workaholics.
They may sacrifice relationships for the sake of making more money, or they may sacrifice other things in their life for the sake of making more money, because that money represents happiness, but also underneath that, that money might represent stability, safety, and kept track of.
These are the people who are checking their bank accounts every day, who are watching the stock market to see how their investments are doing.
These are people who are really interested in knowing exactly what's going on in their money life at every moment.
And it can be really polarizing when you have a money avoidant person and a money vigilant person in a relationship together because the money avoidant person doesn't want to talk about money at all.
And the money vigilant person always wants to talk about money.
So that can cause a bit of conflict or strife as it pertains to money and relationships.
Yeah. Or a money status person and a money avoidant person because I feel like the money avoidant person might fit into that category of I think money is evil.
And then the money status person is like, I want to have as much money as possible.
These categories that you've talked about, can you be more than one of them?
Or can you associate more with one?
Or can one resonate at this time in your life, but maybe in a few years, it's more the other one?
Oh, absolutely. I think that we all exist in between all four of these kind of categories, but there tends to be, for most people, at least one or two that really stand out at any point, but I don't think that they're static throughout the course of our lives.
I imagine you might even have internal conflict because of maybe how you grew up.
Having parents who had really differing opinions and personalities around money.
Absolutely. You know, we internalize so much of what we see in our families of origin with our parents and our extended family members, our siblings even.
And so we get so much of our financial socialization.
So much of that happens at a subconscious level.
And it can lead to those internal conflicts of, hmm, I really want to have these nice things because maybe I never had them before or they represent connection to other people.
But my mom always said rich people are terrible people.
They're selfish or whatever.
And so that internal dialogue definitely happens, especially present connection to other people.
But my mom always said rich people are terrible people.
They're selfish or whatever.
And so that internal dialogue definitely happens, especially with the clients that I see who've experienced that cross class growth, because there are a lot of those conflicting mixed messages.
Yeah, and I feel like where this can go wrong in relationships is when one partner is really judging the other without trying to understand where that money personality is coming from.
How can people start to dig a little deeper and say, I want to understand why you feel the way you do.
I know we have this difference.
Yes. Because your partner doesn't see things the way that you see them doesn't mean that your partner is wrong.
Even if you may not agree, we don't always have to agree with our partners, but to see where they're coming from without automatically thinking my partner doesn't ever want to talk about money because they're wrong.
And, you know, me as a money vigilant person, I've got to talk about it.
And that's the only right way to do it.
If you're able to release that idea that different is bad or different is wrong and just see different as different.
You may be able to see that under the surface of just simply not wanting to talk about money, there may be a lot of anxiety around that.
There may be a physiological response or a significant potentially financially traumatic event in their past that's leading to this reaction or this response or this approach to talking about money.
And that's when couples are able to connect and see each other and be able to build a path forward.
Takeaway one, a lot can inform your money personality.
Financial trauma from childhood, the socioeconomic class you grew up in, your friends views on money, anxiety, a need for security or connection.
Take some time to put words to your own money views.
That'll help you understand money conflicts that you're having in your relationship.
She recommends using the four money scripts as a starting point.
Money avoidance, money status, money worship, and money vigilance.
Do you find that there's more disagreement when one partner grew up with a lot of money and the other one didn't?
It just looks a little different, I'd say.
I guess a lack of understanding is where I'm going with this around some of the cultural pieces of each socioeconomic class.
So in some ways, cross socioeconomic relationships can mimic cross cultural relationships.
There can be some some ways that those two types of relationships mimic one another.
Even among couples that grew up in pretty similar circumstances, they might have very different views on money.
And sometimes I have seen that breakdown on gender lines, like maybe mom stays home to take care of the kids because daycare is too expensive.
so she lets go of some of that career advancement and her salary, and it's an agreement that she made with dad.
But the wife loses autonomy over what she's allowed to buy, because it'll be sort of looked askance at, like you're not bringing in any money, or look at all this money my wife is spending.
Yeah. If a couple is deciding that they're going to have a kid and one of them is going to stay home with this kid and not work anymore or cut back on working a lot, how can they have conversations ahead of this so that they don't fall into a trap of resentment around money?
Having clear, open communication about what this will look like will be very important.
Are we actually being realistic about how much energy is going to go into being a stay at home parent?
And what will the stay at home parent need emotionally, physically, mentally to be able to do that work without becoming resentful?
And then what will the working parent need from the stay -at -home parent to not become resentful?
You know, if I leave the house in the morning and I come home and you're exactly in the same spot on the couch that I left in, that might trigger me and make me feel upset.
Meanwhile, the stay -at -home parent has done like a million things and is just sitting down for the first time today.
Exactly, yeah, Jay, this is what I did today.
This is what I need right now at the end of each day.
Maybe you might need a grandparent to help out with the kid while they connect as a couple.
Having conversations about that can really help reduce the risk of that building up.
All right, takeaway two, once you know your money personality and your partner's money personality, start talking.
Check in with these kinds of questions.
Are you making any assumptions about your partner's actions?
Is gender factoring into this disagreement at all?
Did you come from different cultures or socioeconomic backgrounds?
And is that affecting how you come into this argument?
Is there any way you can find a solution that respects both of your values?
Shay says you want to focus on being clear, honest, and nonjudgmental as you talk.
if you're dating how can you get a sense of someone else's money values you know before you get really serious or before you get married what are questions you can ask each other in the earlier stages I am a big proponent of being as clear and direct as possible so what do you value you when it comes
to money? How did you learn how to manage money or how do you manage money?
One of my favorite questions is how did you earn your first dollar?
My favorite part about asking that question is seeing how people's answers to that question often mirror what they currently do in their life.
Like someone on my podcast mentioned selling painted rocks at a family reunion and that was how they earned their first dollar and it's funny because that person you know is now in the finance field wanted to go into business and like sales was kind of a part of their life it's interesting to to see
that and I think it can tell a lot about a person what they what they value why they wanted to earn that dollar what they did with the dollar that they earned.
Um, it's less direct as some of those other questions.
What do you value and all that stuff?
I like that. These are good questions to ask when you're dating someone.
I earned my first dollar.
I think it was at my frozen yogurt store job when I was like 15 and I think it was at my frozen yogurt store job when I was like 15 and I was making five dollars an hour and I hated the job hated it the the smell of the cleaning fluid that we had to use and just I I couldn't eat frozen yogurt for a long
time after but I was earning part of the cost of this school trip that I wanted to go on that was like a optional trip to Germany and Poland and I really wanted to travel and then when I was in Germany and Poland I was just like like my first time internationally I was I had a great time and it like
sparked a love of travel for me and it showed me that I could have a goal and meet it.
That's so beautiful I love that yeah see I love asking that question because it always you know brings up beautiful stories that again, show that through line throughout a person's life.
Yeah. But I can imagine for someone like me that if someone said to me, like, I earned my first dollar as interest on the trust fund that I was given, it might feel like an unsatisfying answer to that question on a date, you know?
And I mean, that's where, you know, being curious is very important too.
Because what does that mean to that person that their first dollar was earned in a trust fund?
And I mean, do they even count that as earning it?
Like some people may have money that's been set aside for them, but they may not count that as the first dollar that they've ever earned.
Maybe there is a bit more ownership when they think of what they've earned.
So there may be a different story there.
Given your story, that makes sense that if that were someone else's story, it's like, Hmm, I don't know about our compatibility.
I can try not to be judgmental in the moment and to be more curious.
I like that idea. I wonder when you do have differences with a partner, which you inevitably will around money, how do you know if those are a deal breaker?
Yeah. You know, some people may value it more than other things, where it's like a potential partner's income, how much they make managing their money.
How are they communicating about their money?
How aware are they?
How self -aware are they of their relationship to money?
How willing are they to be open and communicate about their finances and the plans and the goals that they have?
How likely are they to set and achieve a goal?
All of these are things that are really important as well.
And so different people have different priorities when it comes to money, again, based on their own experiences, their own money scripts or their own desire for safety, stability, connection, belonging, all of those things.
But when thinking about a partner, there's a lot of pieces to that puzzle that make up who a person is and how they will show up in a relationship.
it yeah and then there's also are you attracted to them do you want to smooch them forever do you you know do you have a similar work ethic do they make you laugh do you care about that do you want to have intellectual conversations with them can can you both do that you know like are you spiritually
aligned does that matter to you it's so many other things it's a wonder anybody partners up at all.
Yes, all of the stars have to align.
Or at least a whole bunch of them.
The most important ones.
A lot of them do. Yeah.
Yeah. All right, takeaway three.
If you're just starting to date someone and you want to test your financial compatibility, Shay says you can ask direct questions like, what do you value when it comes to money?
And how do you manage your money?
But if that feels like too much, you could also try a less direct but still insightful question.
How did you earn your first dollar?
Now, ultimately, it's up to you what your deal breakers are.
There are a lot of factors that determine whether you want to keep seeing someone.
And you have to decide where money falls on that list for you.
All right, it's time for a recap.
Takeaway one, put some words to your money personality and see if you can pin down the roots of it.
The four popular money scripts are a good starting point.
Money avoidance, money status, money worship and money vigilance.
Takeaway two, when you're working through money conflicts with a partner be clear and honest and check for any assumptions that you've been making about them.
Chances are there's a compromise that's aligned.
Takeaway two, when you're working through money conflicts with a partner be clear and honest and check for any assumptions that you've been making about them.
Chances are there's a compromise that's aligned with both of your values.
And takeaway three, if you're in the early stages of dating, test your financial compatibility.
You can ask questions like, how do you manage your money?
What do you value when it comes to money?
And how did you earn your first dollar?
For more LifeKit, check out our other episodes.
We've got one on how to merge money with a partner, and another on working through your emotions and anxieties around money.
You can find those at npr .org slash LifeKit.
And if you love LifeKit and you want even more, subscribe to our newsletter at npr .org slash LifeKit newsletter.
Also, we love hearing from you.
So if you have episode ideas or feedback you want to share, you can always email us at lifekit at npr .org.
This episode of LifeKit was produced by Margaret Serino.
Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan and our digital editor is Malika Grieb.
Megan Cain is our supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer.
Our production team also includes Andy Tegel, Claire Marie Schneider, and Sylvie Douglas.
Engineering support comes from Patrick Murray.
I'm Mariel Segarra.
Thanks for listening.
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