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Visit ucs.org slash defend. Hey, it's Michael.
As you've probably noticed, every Sunday you have been hearing episodes of the fantastic show Modern Love right here on The Daily Feed.
Modern Love is going to be on our feed for a few more weeks.
And to set up this week's show, I've got host Anna Martin right here in our studio.
Hey, Anna. Hey, Michael. Thank you for being here.
Thanks for having me. So tell us about this week's show.
All right, Michael, I feel like I probably know the answer to this question, but I'll ask it anyway.
Do you consider yourself an overthinker?
100%. Okay, without a doubt. Never an underthinker.
Only an overthinker. Never the right amount of thinker.
Overthinker. Overthinker. Yep. What if I told you I spoke to someone who'd figured out a way to stop their own overthinking, and it involves getting tied up, but in a sexy way?
Yeah. Is there any other kind of being tied up?
There is. As I like to say on The Daily, just explain that.
I will actually let Grace Hussar explain that.
She's the woman that I spoke to in this episode.
She wrote a fantastic modern love essay that our episode is based on.
That essay is called The Kind of Pain I Wanted.
I love that title. Great title. So this is not necessarily for everyone.
No, this would not be an episode for the full family.
Just part of it. Just part of it. Just the adults.
This might be my job. This might be your job.
And I'm going to introduce this week's episode of Modern Love, which I can't wait to hear.
Here it is. Great introduction, Michael.
Thank you. From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
This is Modern Love. Today, I'm talking to a writer about how she discovered that pain and BDSM were key to her being fully in her body and in the moment.
In the most important moments of my life, my brain was instead focusing on how do I remember this so that it's perfect?
For her entire life, Grace Hussar struggled to stay present.
She was always a little outside of the moment, and it bothered her.
As a fellow extreme overthinker, I have to say I related to this hard.
For example, this detail really stuck out to me.
Grace told me about how, when she was telling her boyfriend she loved him for the first time, she got so in her head about it that she couldn't even remember what it felt like when he said it back.
I wish I could just go back to that moment and feel what it felt like to hear those words from him instead of watching his chin shake, instead of waiting for the right response or worrying over the wrong response.
I wish I could go back to that moment and just feel that feeling.
All of this started changing when Grace became a runner.
And not just any kind of runner, an ultra runner.
This is extreme endurance running. 31 miles.
You heard that right. 31 miles or more. She was pushing herself to her limit or beyond it.
You become an animal. You become a physical being without the burden of a body.
You become just all id. And after her first ultramarathon, something clicked.
My body was, um, my body was fucked. I mean, there was not a part of me that was not just wrecked.
But mentally, I had never felt more fulfilled.
I had never felt more whole. Grace realized that her body coped with the pain of endurance running by turning her brain off.
She also realized that felt good. She wanted more of it.
More pain, less thinking. So she dug a little further to find more of the kind of pain she wanted.
That's actually the title of her modern love essay, The Kind of Pain I Wanted.
Stay with us. This podcast is supported by the Union of Concerned Scientists.
Science is under attack. As the Trump administration fires scientists and censors data, our communities are being left dangerously unprepared for worsening extreme weather, dirtier air and more polluted water.
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Help fuel this fight. Donate today and you can double your impact for science with a gift to our dollar-for-dollar match campaign.
Visit ucs.org slash defend. Hey, I'm Joel.
And I'm Juliet from New York Times Games.
And we're out here talking to people about games.
You play New York Times Games. Yes, every day.
Do you have a favorite? Connections. It just makes you think.
I feel like it gives me elasticity. Create four groups of four.
This is actually a pretty cool game. What's your favorite game?
The crossword. The crossword? I do it with my brother.
We get Thursday sometimes, but I couldn't do Thursday on my own.
I feel like I'm learning. I feel like I'm accomplishing something.
I like the... When you finish it. My family does Wordle, and we have a huge group chat.
Like, my grandma does Wordle. Your grandma does Wordle?
Oh, every day. Yeah. Do you have a Wordle hot take?
You should start with the word that's strategically bad to make it more fun.
All of these games are so fun because it's like a little five to ten minute break.
I love these games. Yeah. New York Times Games subscribers get full access to all our games and features.
Subscribe now at nytimes.com slash games for a special offer.
You know, Grace, this is certainly one of the more fun first questions I've ever asked a guest on the podcast.
But I wonder, what does BDSM mean to you?
So it means a lot of different things to me.
In the beginning, you hear BDSM and you think of like latex and leather and whips and chains and people getting tied up.
But what you sort of learn to identify with BDSM is control and relief of control.
And And what domination means and what it feels like to submit to someone.
So to me, when I hear the term BDSM, I immediately think of what does submission mean to me?
And what does it mean to give up power in a way that doesn't cost me my agency?
What does it mean to be relieved of having to carry power?
Hmm. If you're seeking out a BDSM relationship, you're not looking to have control taken from you.
You're looking to be relieved of the ownership of being in control.
You're looking to be relieved of the pressure of making decisions.
So you realized after this first ultramarathon that you really liked what pain did to your brain, right?
Yeah. How did you get the idea that you wanted to experience pain in other ways?
You know, there was never a moment where I was like, huh, look at me.
I'm a masochist. Like, it was more like, okay, I like this thing.
Well, I like this thing. I like this. I like that.
And there's a moment where you're like, this gives me some relief.
I wonder if I push it to the extreme, I'll get a ton of relief.
Yeah. Wait, can I pause you before this?
How was this the next step that your brain took?
It's like, okay, well, I like pain. Some people might be like, maybe I'll look into, I don't know, extreme weightlifting or something.
Why was it BDSM? How did that specific thing?
Ultrarunners all joke that they're masochists.
You know, it's this or hire a sex worker to whip me.
You know what I mean? Like people will make jokes like that.
Like if not ultra running, then I'd be, you know, wearing women's stockings and tied up in a basement or something like that.
It was never something that I took too seriously until... gosh, what was like the precipice that I jumped off of?
I think what it was is that I had a very good massage therapist.
And it was right after I started doing endurance events.
And he was extremely rough. Like, I mean, he just really destroyed my muscles.
And he would always joke that he was tenderizing me because your muscles are like so tense afterwards.
And And he would get up on the table and like get on my back and like drive his elbow into me.
And it was so painful that I would cry while he was doing it.
And like feeling the muscles open up, I was opening up emotionally as my muscles were opening up.
And I found myself very attracted to him while we were doing this.
And I would leave those massages and be like so sexually tuned up that like I was like, wouldn't it be great if we had this like someone beating me up and then also having sex with me?
Like, wouldn't that be a wonderful finish to this?
I think that's what did it. I think it was shortly after that that I started just, I can't remember what I Googled, but it was probably something terrible like painful massage, happy ending or something stupid like that.
And of course it took me to FetLife, which I had never heard of.
For people who don't know, what is FetLife?
So FetLife is a site that one could compare to Facebook.
It's a social networking site and people chat on there.
But what they are mostly chatting about is their various kinks and they're finding other people who have those kinks to connect with.
What did you start to see on there? And how did it make you feel?
It was overwhelming. It was really overwhelming.
And like anyone else, you look at that stuff and you're like, well, those people are freaks.
Like, that's not me at all, you know? And you see things like people just being in various states of torture, tied up, strung up, chained to things.
There's all kinds of kinks that are very... hard and hard to look at.
And at first I looked around a little bit and I was like, well, that's freaky and I'm way out of my depth on this.
And I logged off and then I went back again.
Why? Why did you return? Because I was fascinated.
I don't know. It's kind of like when you're attracted to someone who's not who you're normally attracted to and you're like, well, that guy's a gross, sweaty man.
And then you see him more and more and you're like, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Yeah. So you you're like, it wasn't that bad.
Like you were just being a baby. Go back and look at it again.
And so you go back and you look at it again.
And there's always one thing that sticks out.
And you're like, well, I kind of like that.
You know, what was that for you? Yeah. So one of the first pictures I saw was a woman tied up with rope.
And, you know, one of the things that caught my eye was how at peace her face looked while her body was just contorted in what looked to be an incredibly painful position. predicament bondage.
Her arms were tied, her legs were tied. She was hanging from a beam and her skin was purple in places.
But what drew you to the picture, what drew me to the picture, what I loved most about it is that you can see how much pain her body was in, but her face just looked so peaceful and so beautiful.
And it looked like she was happy to be experiencing that.
It looked like she had found peace in that pain.
And I kept coming back to that picture because the face was, it disarmed me a bit.
Because you want to just see something like that and be like, oh my God, that's so painful.
But then why did she look so happy? Yeah.
Tell me more about the inner monologue when you were looking at this picture.
Was it like, I want to do that? Or was it just like, that looks like... Tell me more about what was your monologue as you were looking at that photo.
At first it was, I could never do that. And then it was, she looks like she has the kind of relief that I want.
She has the kind of relief that you want and that perhaps you've gotten a taste of through running, it sounds like, and only running?
Yep. Yeah. I mean, I everyone I think at some point dabbles a little bit in BDSM.
You get a certain boyfriend who's like, you know, call me daddy or or you watch Fifty Shades of Grey and you're like, oh, that's what it is.
I guess. Yes, exactly. And so you you sort of dabble in it and you decide early on. this is not for me.
I don't like it like that. I'm not looking for someone to take something from me, but I'm looking for relief.
I'm looking to have my burden lifted instead of have a power struggle.
And everything I had known about BDSM up to that point was that you were giving someone else control and someone was going to control you.
And from my perspective, I'm someone who's very... domineering a little bit, depending on who you ask.
I am a person who likes to be in control.
And so I could never wrap my brain around how you give that up and how you trust someone that much.
And it was these early pictures that sort of helped me see that these people who are tied, someone wasn't controlling them.
They were being relieved of their burden.
Yeah. Being intrigued by something, right, is one thing, but actually kind of setting out to try to get involved in that thing is another, of course.
Tell me about how—did you make a profile at this point?
It took me a couple of visits before I made a profile, and I started just joining in these little chats about things.
What kinds of questions were you asking, or what were you talking about?
How do I find someone who will do this? How do I know that I can trust someone?
Does anybody else worry about getting murdered?
You know, I mean, how do you do this? What happens in your brain when you do this?
Like, you know, does it hurt? Do you regret it?
All those questions. And did people come to you with answers?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. People in the community, in the kink community particularly, they love talking about it because it is so misunderstood.
And probably a lot of people who look at it just are like, oh, those people are freaks.
And so they welcome the opportunity to be seen as like people with normal lives who do this one sexual thing, you know.
So you have this profile. You're learning more about this world.
You're getting these questions answered.
Who did you meet? So one of the first people that reached out to me was Peter.
And he was very popular in the scene at the time.
And part of the reason for that was twofold.
Number one, He did not put any pressure on people.
He just kind of introduced himself and let things fall where it will.
Whereas everyone else would be like, not only am I going to tie you up, but then I'm going to do all these, you know, crazy things to you.
And oh, my God, your pussy is going to feel amazing.
Like they would really just write you this erotic essay, you know, whereas Peter was kind of like, this is what I have in mind for us.
Let me know if you're interested. Yeah. And so he sent me a message not long after I joined FedLife, maybe like a couple of weeks.
And by this time, I had put a couple of pictures of myself up just to kind of give people the idea of what they were dealing with.
And I remember he wrote to me that he was, I can't remember how he phrased it.
It was like, I am enhancing my repertoire of body types that I would like to tie and And you are on my radar as someone who is in that spectrum of bodies.
And I am a bit fuller. I'm like maybe a size 12, 14.
And so for me, that honesty, that transparency where he wasn't like, you're so hot, I want to get my hands on you.
He was kind of like, you have a body type that you don't see in these pictures a lot.
And I would like to learn how to tie that body.
And it disarmed me. I felt like it wasn't just a copy and pasted message.
He was actually seeing me and seeing my body and seeing what I wanted.
He sends you this message, which was comforting to you because of its transparency and also to me sounds quite, maybe this is the wrong word, but almost like business-like or like a little clinical, which maybe also was kind of like, okay, this guy has like his, as opposed to maybe the more florid or over the top, it sounds like messages from other people, like this was to the point.
Yeah. I was very attracted to that, like, just clinical, you know, honesty.
Like, it felt, it made me feel safe. How did you respond?
And also, wait, sorry, even before that, what did his profile look like to you?
Were you drawn in? His profile was insane.
He had hundreds of pictures on there. And he tied men, women, you know, I mean, fat people, skinny people, you know, every race.
He had hundreds of pictures on there. I remember I clicked on his profile after he messaged me and I was like, oh my God, I'm not up for this because the people were tied in all different ways and it was painful looking.
And when I saw it, I was like, no. It seems like it was pushing the envelope for you.
Yeah. How did you go from being like, I'm out of my depth here.
I don't think I can do this to being like, maybe I should reply.
Like, how did that work? Well, this is how, you know, I was like new to like online dating and online encounters is because now like I would get a message like that and see those pictures and be like, oh, no, not for me.
But then I was still trying to like reply to every message I got.
And so I was like, well, I'm not going to, you know, connect with this guy, but I'll do the polite thing and tell him I'm not interested.
And so I sent him a message back and I was like, you know, you seem really great and I really enjoyed your message.
But I think that this depth of kink is a little out of my frame of reference right now.
And I don't think I'm ready for that anymore.
And I expected based on like other men on the Internet for him to be like, you know, well, fuck you, bitch.
You're a fat ass whore or whatever men always say to women who reject them.
But he was very nice. And he was like, you know, perhaps being new, you don't understand that like you are the one setting the parameter.
So if that's out of your depth, tell me what's in your depth and we'll start there.
He's saying, you know, just FYI, you'd be the one.
Who'd be in control. Yeah. And that kind of blew my mind.
And so, of course, like my biggest fear with BDSM was was giving up control.
And so for him to respond, actually, you're the one in control.
Like, I'm just doing what you tell me to do.
I was like, OK, where do you want to meet me?
I was like, I mean, I said it back very nicely.
I was like, OK, this intrigues me. Like, would you like to talk more in person?
I don't know a lot about this world, but I do know that a big part of kink is explicit consent in these kinds of scenarios.
Like, tell me about what kind of conversation you two had before you started doing anything together.
Yeah, when he messaged me, you know, like, okay, can we have this conversation in person?
I was like, okay, yeah, no problem. And I was so new that I wasn't expecting the amount of information I got after I said, okay, let's meet up.
And he asked me for my phone number. He was like, are you comfortable giving your phone number?
I said, yes. I sent him my phone number.
And immediately after, I got text after text after text of like attachments.
And they were descriptions of things that he enjoyed doing.
And of course, like the option to opt out of any of those things, etc.
And his preference was to tie rope bottoms naked so that he could better see the placement of the rope.
And then there was a diagram of a body. And you had to color any part of the body green that he was allowed to touch and any part of the body red that he wasn't allowed to touch.
And then there were maybe 20 or 30 questions about areas of trauma.
Yeah. And as an adolescent, I was assaulted by an adult that I trusted several times.
So that ability to like stay in the moment, I was robbed of that by that experience.
And I learned that like sex is something you tolerate and not something you participate in.
And it's something that's done to you and not something you enjoy, you know.
And so finding that balance and walking that line for me, it's been a hard fought path.
It's been an ultra marathon. Yeah. it's a really important framing, I think, for why having control and also being able to release control in a way that still keeps the power with you is so important to you.
So I really appreciate. Yeah, absolutely.
Part of, for me, reclaiming my power was acknowledging that I have permission to enjoy sexuality and I have permission to explore sexuality.
And it was like, I remember there was a question on there that was like, I hope to feel like blank from my encounter and you had to fill it in.
What did you put? I think I put, I want to feel present for my encounter with you.
Wow. So we did all the paperwork. I sent it back right away.
And we made a plan to meet up at a cafe.
And he was like, normally, just so you know, I try to pick a place near me so that if we hit it off and you want to try something, we can go back to my place and try it.
And again, the transparency really drew me in.
I really was like, It wasn't like he was like, nothing's going to happen on this first meetup.
Don't get your hopes up, yada, yada, yada.
And so I was like, okay, I'm open to that.
Let's pick a day where I have a little bit more time.
And so I made sure that I had a kid-free afternoon and everything was in order for me to spend a few hours doing that.
So you see him at the cafe. Tell me about your first impression.
He was so attractive. And I remember looking at his hands a lot because he has like really big, strong looking hands.
And I remember seeing them in the pictures.
And there were a lot of fractional images in that memory for me, but not a lot of conversation.
Like my brain was kind of like, who cares what he has to say?
Yeah. You know, he's going to say all the right things.
I'm going to say all the right things, you know.
And I'm looking at those hands. Yeah. When you're doing something like this, you're relying so heavily on like your animal instincts to tell you what to do, you know, because...
If you're afraid, you know, it's not right.
If you're not attracted to him. I mean, we're not we weren't building a life together.
We weren't dating. And so it all came down to the bargain basement floor of like humanity.
Like, do I trust him? Do I feel attracted to him?
There weren't a lot of questions. It wasn't like I had to. you know, know what he did for a living or, you know, what was your relationship with your ex-wife like?
Like, it was a lot of animal instincts. And within minutes, probably within the first five minutes, I was like, okay, I've had enough.
Had enough, like? I just knew I would go through with it.
He was like, you want to get out of here?
And I was like, yeah. We'll be right back.
This podcast is supported by the Union of Concerned Scientists.
Science is under attack. As the Trump administration fires scientists and censors data, our communities are being left dangerously unprepared for worsening extreme weather, dirtier air and more polluted water.
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Help fuel this fight. Donate today and you can double your impact for science with a gift to our dollar-for-dollar match campaign.
Visit ucs.org slash defend. Hi, it's Alexa Weibel from New York Times Cooking.
We've got tons of easy weeknight recipes, and today I'm making my five-ingredient creamy miso pasta.
You just take your starchy pasta water, whisk it together with a little bit of miso and butter until it's creamy.
Add your noodles and a little bit of cheese.
Mmm. It's like a grown-up box of mac and cheese that feels like a restaurant-quality dish.
New York Times Cooking has you covered with easy dishes for busy weeknights.
You can find more at nytcooking.com. ¶¶ And now take me through, you know, everything that happens next.
So you get out of there, you drive, it sounds like, to his house.
Yeah, so you know what's funny is, like, I was so nervous that I don't remember that trip.
I don't remember... you know, A plus B. I don't remember the steps.
I remember we were in the cafe and I made the decision that like this could work.
And then the next thing I know, my brain is turning on and I'm like standing under the like A frame in his rope room.
Describe that room for me, this rope room.
So he has a fairly normal condo. It looks fine.
And it's just like a two-bedroom condo. And then in one of the rooms, there is like a frame from like a swing set, you know, like a children's swing set, but without any of the swings or anything.
It's just a frame for it. And on one end of the frame is like types of rope and a rope bag.
And there's like a little electric candle hanging down.
And then on the other end of the frame is an extremely large, extremely sharp knife and a pair of scissors.
And I saw the knife and I remember thinking it was weird.
I wasn't scared. And just to be clear, the knife and the scissors are for what?
Yeah. So if, for instance, you tie someone and they lose feeling in their fingertips or if, for instance, you know, their leg goes numb, there's all kinds of emergencies that could happen.
And of course, you're dealing with edge play, you know, and rope wasn't the only thing he did in that room.
And so there had to be a contingency plan there.
It's interesting. Your instincts were right.
These weren't like weapons. These were safety mechanisms.
Yeah. So interesting. Something in you. So validating.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're in this room.
I mean, I'm just like, was this, was he playing music?
Was it silent? Could you hear anything of the outside world?
Was it its own bubble? Like... It was not its own bubble for sure.
I could hear things outside, you know, traffic, the birds, there's a big tree outside of his house.
And it was funny, we were joking because he queued up like a playlist and it was like, I was joking that it's his dungeon playlist.
It's like Enya and like all kinds of like, you know, like who can say?
Yeah. So like his goal, and he had prepared me for this a little bit, was to get me out of my head by making me uncomfortable.
And so when we got to the room, he was like, you're going to stand under that frame and I'm going to undress you and then I'm going to look at your body.
What's happening in your mind? What's happening in your body?
So I remember what happened in that room in snapshots.
I remember it being very fractional. And so I stood under the frame and he sat on the couch and he just looked at me.
And like, I am not someone who's super comfortable with eye contact.
And so it felt very disconcerting to just be stared at.
It's intense. Yeah. I got the sense that he was just, like, perceiving my body as it was.
You know, because when you meet someone off the internet, especially when there's a sexual component, you present your body in a way that you feel is the most attractive.
Like, I'm going to wear this dress. I'm going to wear the good push-up bra.
Like... You're creating a picture of how you want to be perceived.
But when you just stand there and you allow yourself the ability to be a body, it can feel very vulnerable.
Is your brain going into overdrive? Like, this is what he's thinking about me.
This is, you know. Oh, yeah. Like, oh, he's thinking this.
He's regretting this. Like, what is he doing?
How long is this going to take? I have to pick up the kids by four.
Like, all the thoughts are coming. Like, hurry up.
Get it done. You know, this is another thing I'm doing today.
And his... His whole goal was for it to not be another thing I'm doing today.
His whole goal was this is the thing you're doing.
So don't add me to your to-do list. What happened and at what point did your brain stop?
Yeah. So all of a sudden he stood up and first he took my sweater off.
And I remember I was kind of like moving my shoulders to like help him get it off.
And he put his hand on my chest and he said, don't help me.
Whoa. And I remember being like, oh, shit.
Like. Because all I do is help people, right?
Like, that's what you do. You're socially conditioned to like make it as easy as possible for someone to love you.
So don't help me. It brought me into the moment.
And so he took my sweater off and then he unbuttoned my shirt.
And then, you know... I was standing there without a shirt and he walked around me and then he took my bra off and then he took my skirt down.
Like, you don't realize how many layers of clothes you're wearing until they're being taken off one by one by one.
Eventually, we got to the point where I was just standing under the posts, not wearing anything.
Yeah. And your instinct is to not cover yourself, but kind of like make your body look the best.
You know, so you arch your back, you turn your hip out.
And he put his hand on my butt and he said, stop, like just stand there.
And so I did stop and I just stood there.
And he lifted my arms up and he kind of put his hands on my waist and It felt like he was like gauging my body, like how much rope will I need?
What are the soft parts? Where are the muscles?
And he said, get on your knees. And I thought, oh, fuck, like he's not even going to use the rope.
He's just going to make me give him a blowjob or something.
And so I got on my knees and he turned around and like walked out of the room.
And I was like, oh, shit. And he came back with this bamboo pole.
And before we had gotten to this point, he had held three different kinds of rope out in front of me.
And one was this like cushy hemp, like colored rope thing.
One was this like very hard, bristly, like paracord looking rope.
And one was this spiky coconut rope that looked kind of like barbed wire.
And he was like, you pick what you want.
And so like I looked at the colored rope and I thought, oh, that's cute.
Yeah. And I looked at the paracord and I was like, that looks too artificial.
But the coconut rope looked like rope. It looked like it would hurt.
And I picked the coconut rope and he was like, of course you do.
The most painful one. Did you even have to think about it?
No, I didn't. So you've chosen the rope.
He leaves the room. He comes back with the bamboo pole.
Then what? The next thing I know, I was laying on my stomach on the floor, and he was tying my legs to the bamboo pole.
And I had put my arms behind my back, and he had tied my arms behind them, not as bad as it could be.
He was kind of taking it easy on me, but the legs were really bad.
And by bad, you mean like painful. Painful, yeah.
It was challenging. It's a challenge. And I remember letting go and just being in the pain because when you look at the pictures of Robe, everyone looks, their face looks so beautific, you know, and you think they're getting this relief from it.
It probably feels like, like a weighted blanket or something.
It feels like a constriction, a very tight hug.
But it's incredibly painful. And it could have been the rope I picked.
That could be why it was so particularly painful.
But it, oh my God, it hurt so bad. The blood vessels were...
Like, I mean, it's like when you were a little kid and you would put a rubber band around your finger.
Totally. That's what I was thinking about.
Yeah. Yeah. And you'd be like, oh, my gosh, that hurt very much quicker than I thought it would.
So it was like as soon as he started tying my legs to the post and he was like making the links, I was like, I need to get in to the pain a lot quicker than I expected.
Like I thought it would be sexier, you know, but it was not.
And after he had tied my legs to the pole and my arms were behind my back, he started making a loop to the frame so that he could lift my legs higher than my head, which if your legs are already in a lot of pain and then they're lifted up, the blood is already having trouble getting to your legs and then it all rushes to your head.
It was even more intense. Yeah. And so you get really lightheaded.
And so after he did that and the blood was all rushing to my head and I felt really lightheaded, he went and sat on the couch and like watched me for a minute.
And he must have sensed that I was not doing well because he came and got on the floor with me and he put his face in front of my face and he, the eye contact was, necessitated that I stay in the moment.
The eye contact brought me back. And I realize now that that's what he was doing.
He was saying, you're going to be in this moment and be uncomfortable with that.
And he wanted me to feel the pain. And so I did.
I opened my eyes and we were just kind of nose to nose.
And he said, you'll know if you're listening to your body, you're an athlete, you'll know when it's time to take it off.
And how did you know when it was time? What was the flag your body or your brain sent up?
So I felt my toes getting numb. And it's kind of like when your foot has fallen asleep and it's uncomfortable, but it's not painful.
And as an athlete, you get accustomed to checking in with your body and figuring out whether pain is an alert of like trouble that's coming or trouble that's there.
And so you're checking in and you're checking in, you're saying this is painful, but trouble's not here yet.
And then all of a sudden the pain changes and you're like, oh yeah, no, this is not right.
This is not right. It's not pain that you can get inside of anymore.
It's too much. So then what happened? Did you tell him?
How did you, how did you say? So I looked at him and he said enough.
And I said, yeah. And he just untied it.
And when you get rope taken off of your body, it's like your whole body exhales.
Like you're in such an uncomfortable restriction and then it's removed and the rope comes off a lot faster than it goes on.
It takes forever to get it on. And then it's loosened and your whole body just goes like, And it's like the deepest sigh you can imagine.
It's like a sigh from every part of your body.
It just, your synapses just exhale. Yeah.
How were you feeling towards him, towards yourself?
You get very, what's the right word? When you're in a lot of pain and someone releases you, you are grateful to them.
And when someone is walking you through the pain, there's a kind of sexuality in that gratitude.
And so I felt very safe and I felt taken care of.
I felt just this enormous, like, tidal wave of, like, trust and love and just, you know, thank you, thank you, thank you.
And even though he had been the one to tie me up and even though...
He had been sort of the impetus for the pain.
Like, I had felt this crushing sense of gratitude, and it made me want to be intimate with him, and it made me want to keep going.
And up until this point, our interactions had been very clinical.
Like, I was a body and he was hands. Mm-hmm.
And it wasn't until he could see that I was actually exhausted that the sexuality came back to both of us.
Like we became people again and not bodies and hands.
I was an exhausted person and he was a person who felt exhausted. needed and valued.
And so then we were attracted to each other.
It wasn't like a date where we would like make out and then see what happens.
You know, like I was laying on the floor exhausted and he started just like sort of massaging my body with his hands.
And then he took out a vibrator and he, you know, gave me an orgasm.
Things sort of progressed from there. And we did have sex with each other.
But it was very kind of like the massage that I talked about where it was like I was very broken and kind of just present in the moment because of that brokenness.
And it felt like I was in control. I mean, it is interesting to me what we said about how this dynamic between rope tops and rope bottoms, let's say, it's not just the rope top who's in control.
We talked about how the rope bottom is also sort of making the active choice to give control over.
This is kind of a windy way of asking this question, but, you know, when you were tied or even when you were having sex and being intimate after the tying, like, did you feel in control?
Oh, a hundred percent. There was not ever a moment where it felt like sex was something that was happening to me, which like, because of my trauma history, I had been very intentional about how sex is not something that happens to me.
And I was very afraid that after the rope, I would be so physically spent that he would just take advantage of me and we would just have sex, you You know, and he would be like, I did this thing for you.
Now you do this thing for me. Transactional.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It was not like that at all.
I was the person saying what was okay and what was not okay.
And it was never something that was being done to my body.
It was something that we were doing together.
Yeah. It's really, I think, important to underline that.
You were the one to say stop or go, you know, like, and you were actively wanting to continue intimacy by having sex after this session.
Yeah. At the end of that session... You're leaving his home.
I'm just trying to, you know, you described the room like you can hear the birds outside.
And it is one of these things where, like, you leave this random condo in Chicago, right?
And you, like, get back into your car. Yeah.
Well, it's funny, like, once the pain stops, the thoughts come back.
And so I remember, like, we had had sex, and it was, like, probably maybe halfway through the sex act where I started thinking, you know, is it going to be obvious if I look at my watch?
And, like, what am I going to make for dinner?
Like, I'm exhausted. My legs hurt. Like, I do not want to go home and, like, cook dinner.
And where can I get dinner? And what's around here?
And did I see a sign that said chicken on sale?
Like— You know, I started mentally tabulating what I had to do.
The second the pain subsides, those thoughts come back.
I mean, tell me, how did you know when this session was like officially done?
He came. Okay, there you go. Yeah. It's nothing more metaphorical.
I mean, we weren't going to like snuggle.
I mean, it was like we had done the rope.
We were we were both tired. I had come several times, you know, and he is someone who really takes his time and make sure that like I am fully satisfied and fully satisfied. you know, just laid out like that.
I have eked out every, you know, pain, pleasure, experience, discomfort that I can.
And I was just a puddle. And so he was like, okay, now I can come.
And then he did. And then, you know, he gave me his hand and he helped me up and we hugged each other and I got dressed and he stepped out of the room.
And then I went into his living room where he was sitting down, like drinking coffee and, And I gave him a hug and I was like, thank you.
And he was like, this was really great. Let's do it again.
I was like, okay, yeah, for sure. And then I left.
Did you want to do it again? Yeah. I wanted to do it again while I was doing it.
And when you got home, was it strange to reenter the real world where you're a partner and a mom and like an employee?
Was it strange to reenter? Yeah, it's very strange.
Even now, like anytime, you know, I do something like that and I have, you know, gone down other avenues of kinks and sin and I've been to different events and things like that.
It is always strange because... there's a duality to that aspect of your consciousness.
I always say that folks with a trauma history are experts at compartmentalizing, you know?
And so you do compartmentalize a little bit, At first, anyway, although as I'm saying that, I think of all the ways that like kink has allowed me to like step into my power more in my personal life now, like at work, you know, as a mother, like it is very empowering for me.
How many years has it been since that first session with Peter?
It's been about five years. about five years.
I would love to hear you reflect on how you think rope play, kink, how has it changed your relationship to your own body?
You know, it has changed my relationship to my body in that, similar to ultra running, I stop thinking of my body as a thing to present, and I start thinking of my body as a tool.
And from the very first time that Peter undressed me and walked around my body and sort of gauged it as a whole and not like, oh, you know, two fat thighs or two bubbly butt or, you know, as a whole, as a tool, it's made it so much easier to love my body the same way ultra running has, because you begin to see that the, you know, big squishy bubble butt that, you know, you hate dressing is also really great when you're running because you need your glutes.
Like, That's what's carrying you. That's what's doing the work of running, you know?
And it's similar to rope where when you start seeing your body as a tool, it's a lot easier to fall in love with it, you know?
And it's a lot easier to see what's beautiful about it instead of constantly like, is this my best side?
Is this my, you know, perfect outfit? There's a vulnerability to just exposing your whole body, right?
The animal is not self-conscious. Yes, exactly.
That's beautifully put. The animal is not self-conscious.
You never see like a horse being like, oh, my hooves.
God, my haunches. Yes, exactly. Haunches?
What's a haunch? I don't really know if that's a part of a horse.
You never see a grizzly bear being like, God, if I could lose these last 20 pounds.
Totally not. I love doing that. You never see a bird be like, I wish my wings weren't shaped that way.
Yes, exactly. Like animals just understand that their body is a tool, you know, and there's biology in that.
There's divine design. Grace, what were you hoping to find when you decided to try rope play?
I was hoping to find a different part of my brain.
I was hoping to find a new awareness of my body.
I was hoping to uncover something that I hadn't seen before in myself.
And did you find that? Oh my God, yeah. Totally.
Grace, what a conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time today.
You are so welcome. Thank you for having me.
It's been a delight. Thanks for listening, everyone.
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