So have you ever felt like something kind of crucial was missing from your life, even when you achieved success and hit all the quote happiness milestones?
Maybe like a voice inside whispered there must be something more a richer, more vibrant way of moving through the world.
Well if that's been your experience my guess today just may blow open your concept of what it truly means to live a rich, fulfilling existence.
Renowned psychologist Shigeru Oishi exposes the pitfalls of rigid happiness chasing and reveals the radical path to a psychologically rich life, one brimming with novel adventures and diverse emotional textures and profound perspective shifts.
You'll discover powerful mindset pivots to navigate uncertainty with curiosity instead of anxiety, plus simple strategies to savor and embed life's richest moments into lasting personal growth.
Shigehiro is a professor of psychology at the University of Chicago and a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences who has received numerous honors, and his trailblazing research explores the components of a truly rich life across cultures.
His insights really shatter conventional wisdom around happiness and meaning, and he reveals how aesthetic experiences and playfulness can unlock untapped dimensions of vitality sharing three essential ingredients for curating a psychologically rich existence.
So excited to share this conversation with you.
I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.
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Super excited to dive into your work.
I spent a considerable amount of time talking to so many folks who I would imagine in some way you consider colleagues, folks in the world of social sciences, part of psychology, and really deepening into, you know, what makes a good life, which is really what, you know, that this show has been all about for so many years.
We've explored happiness a lot.
We've explored meaningfulness a lot.
We've explored relationships.
And you introduce sort of like a third element, psychological richness, which I'm super excited to dive into.
Before we get there, though, let's talk about a couple of other things.
One of the things that you speak about is this tension between a life of stability, of certainty, predictability, and a life of openness, a life of exploration.
Tease us out a bit for me.
Yeah, I think, to me, a lot of important life decisions about The Clash's famous song, Should I Stay or Should I Go?
I mean, do you have a job?
Then the big question, especially when there's something new, opportunity comes around, then should I stay with what I have or should I go?
And then relationship, of course, is the same way, buying a new house or not is a new way.
But even the small everyday decisions, I think, is really about, or should I go to my favorite restaurant again, or should I try something new?
So I think the life of stability versus adventure is not just about the entire life, but also everyday life.
And it turned out, I mean, what was really surprising to me after doing happiness research for over 20 years was that usually the correct of the happy life, a more stable type of life.
Number one predictor, as you know, is close relationships.
Obviously, the more stable it is, the better it is for your happiness.
Right? I think this stability, stable life versus life of explorations or adventure is indeed at the core of what is good life and maybe you know some happiness is a little bit lean toward the stable life meaningful life is probably lean toward the stable life because in order for you to feel like you're making difference in the world you cannot just volunteer once or twice you have to do it week after week for long extended period of time.
So that's what sort of motivated me to think about, oh, if all the good things about happiness and the meaning revolving around the stable life, then what about those people who have really adventurous life?
Are they not leading a good life?
Anthony Bourdain, for instance, it's like crazy life in many way, but a lot of people admire that type of life as well.
As life of motherly resource and so forth, so anyway.
Yeah, I mean, it is really interesting.
It's interesting that you bring up this notion of equating happiness and equating meaning with stability.
My personal experience, it's changed over the seasons of my life.
I think when I was younger, I probably made less of that correlation.
For me, it was like, let me try new things, let me play, let me start a new company, and let me go do all these different things, that sort of free -wheeling creative expression, changing jobs, changing careers, for me that was the root of happiness, that was the root of, I found meaning, I found expression, I found significance in change and a lack of stability.
And then I move into a later season of life where I become married, I become a parent.
And it's like a switch flips in me, and all of a sudden I'm like, oh, the corollis for happiness and meaning.
So I wonder if you see this sort of like a seasonal change in these things.
Definitely, and there are individual differences too.
That the sensation seeker, you know, we have a paper about sensation seekers and how daily physical pleasure really matters to them.
Whereas those of us who are not really sensation seekers, like a physical sensation of pleasure doesn't matter that much, day to day.
So there are individual differences.
of course, there is a life stage differences.
The younger people need a lot more stimulation than the older people.
So I think it is true that on average, there are life stage differences, individual differences in terms of preference for the stable factor versus more unstable, unpredictable, or challenging factors.
At the same time, which way is easier for you to get to sort the state of happiness, then I think overall, actually for you, it is probably easier for now.
Feel like you're satisfied with your life.
You find your life to be meaningful and so forth done when you are just changing the job and starting new company and so forth.
There's excitement probably, but while you really content and peaceful and satisfied with your choice at that moment, maybe, but maybe not, you know, I don't know.
Let me what, Why are you completely happy at the time?
It's fine. Of course there are windows of just profound unhappiness mixed in with profound happiness, especially when you're an entrepreneur.
There's wild swings up and down and there's, it's a very jagged curve.
But you brought up this phrase, sensation seekers, which now I'm really curious about.
Tell me more about what you mean when you use the phrase, sensation seekers, and how do you know if this is you?
Yeah, also, sensation seeking is, Well, there is a famous scale, like self -report scale.
So those people who score high on sensation seeking is constantly seeking new stimulation.
So going to bungee jumping and dangerous skateboarding and surfing.
And so essentially it's sort of like, you look at the checklist of things you really like to do and how dangerous are they?
And if for you, the things you really like to do are very dangerous, then that's probably your sensation seeker.
On the other hand, what you really want to do is sit in a quiet room and read Jane Austen.
Then probably you're not sensation seeker.
So there are scales to measure that.
I'm going through my head and I'm thinking, there are times where I actually like to do that.
As we have this conversation, I'm just back from three days of snowboarding at altitude in Colorado.
And I also just want to curl up on my couch later this afternoon and spend hours diving into a new book.
So is it more a state or a trait?
Shigeru Miyamoto There are state, but also trait as well.
I mean, some people need constant stimulation.
So let's say you just did the snowboarding, but then after just a day or two, oh, I just need something else.
I feel bored. So it's almost combined with the boredom ploneness.
that you need this high for you to get going.
Whereas other people, occasionally, they enjoy this skate.
It's not boardings or skating or whatever.
But then it's not like after a week or so they feel like deprived.
The true sensation seekers always feel deprived after not doing these kinds of things for a while.
So you can think of this almost as an addiction to, you know, three seconds, essentially.
You just need the thrills.
Right, yeah. That would not be me actually.
That's the trait Sensation Seeker versus sort of the state occasional, you know, Sensation Seeker.
So I was speaking of those trait sensation seekers.
Right where you sort of open your eyes in the morning and this is like your dominant mode.
Like, I need to go out and have this super heightened level of sensation and stimulation and potentially risk, it sounds like, as a part of that in some way, shape or form?
Yeah, risk is part of that too.
Yeah, for sure. You brought up happiness and meaning, and again, some of the things that you talk about are some of the mythology around it.
You literally label both as being, happiness isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there is a happiness trap.
Meaning isn't necessarily a bad thing, but like there can be a trap side.
Walk me through. Let's start with happiness.
What are we talking about when I'm talking about a happiness trap.
I think when we are talking about happiness trap, it's the sense that you have to be happy and also another thing I think is the very interesting fact is that traditionally happiness was essentially about good luck and fortune.
So English word, hap was luck.
If you look the Webster unabridged dictionary from the 1800s.
That's the definition.
But in 1962, they essentially said good luck and fortune is the archaic definition of happiness.
So, it became sort of out of fashion.
Now, the happiness is defined as something like the satisfaction of one's desires and needs.
And even more, if I ask American audience, what is happiness to you?
What kind of words do you sort of associate with the word happiness or somebody being happy?
A lot of people say, oh, somebody who is really successful and happiness is a sign of personal success.
Or one person even wrote victory.
And that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that.
But now you really clearly see if you are seeing the happiness as a sign of personal success, then you are much more likely to see unhappiness as a personal failure, right?
And it's really really painful then to accept these negative events.
And as we know, negative things happens, like look at the LA's like you know, wildfires.
That's not your fault at all, but just these things happen.
And when you're trying to tell yourself or I have to be happy I should be happy about my life and so it is really difficult to take this negative now consider happiness is a good luck and fortune then unhappiness is simply you're being unlucky then negative events and things like that are quite easy to accept and you're not gonna get down you know it's like oh it just was a bad luck so I'll try again but if you think that happiness is a sign of personal success, and I don't feel happy about my life.
Then I feel like a loser.
And that really is not a good way to move forward. So that's why I call it happiness trap.
And indeed, interestingly, the research shows that the Barry Shultz famous maximizing versus satisficing research that actually there's a satisficer who can say, oh, this is good enough, way more happier than the people who are just constantly thinking about and seeking.
What is better out there?
I mean, it's so fascinating when you when you do equate happiness with success, and then, like you said, then you find yourself not happy, maybe through circumstances entirely outside of your control at this particular moment, then there's this script running that says, well, then I'm not successful.
I'm not living a successful life.
It's like it piles on, it creates this downward spiral.
It really does. Also, just make you avoid the potential danger.
So, I feel like John Hyde talks about the anxious generations, and I think anxious generation is really the generation they try to be happy.
And they know, once they go outside of their comfort zone, then they could encounter something unexpected, something they might not like, then they don't want to do it.
That's another element of sort of the happiness trap.
Because you're so focused on maximizing positive emotions and minimizing negative emotions, you're just staying within the comfort zone, and you're not challenging enough.
Current generation, unfortunately, is not like you when you are young trying all kinds of new things, and then they're becoming much, much less adventurous and risk seeking.
That's so interesting.
So you're basically saying that if you view not being happy as, quote, some sort of personal failure, then that may sort of make you less likely to start to try all of these different things that may add incredibly to your life, but you see them as having a risk of failure because you don't want to have that failure because that means you're not happy.
And then that translates to being not successful.
and the eyes of your peers around you.
Yeah that's so interesting the way it all ties together like that.
Rather than saying, I may try this thing, it may not work.
I may not be happy for a moment in time.
And that's actually okay.
That's just part of the human condition.
You see like I've been teaching at the university for so long.
So always some students first question is, is this class easy?
Can I get an A in this class, right?
There are always students like that.
But I feel like more and more students are so concerned about the grades and yes, it is competitive.
You have to have a very high GPA to get into consulting firm or whatever, but that's the same phenomenon.
Like you're trying to maximize happiness and trying to maximize your GPA, then what happens is that you're not taking challenging classes or the courses that really, truly interest you perhaps, rather you're choosing the EZA, unfortunately those are a lot of psychology courses, so I welcome those in some way, but at the same time I feel like they should be ready for a challenge.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
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You also speak and what you describe as a meaning trap, this sort of almost like a risk of obsessive meaning seeking.
Take me deeper into this.
I think the trap one part is that when you think about somebody who led the meaningful life or leading meaningful life, we often think about super famous person like Mother Teresa obviously led the life of meaning.
I mean, she just worked and worked for the others in Calcutta and her life.
Or Steve Jobs who changed essentially the world, right?
So oftentimes I think in graduation speech, the speaker always say find your passion, go out there and change the world.
But I mean, how many people can do that, really?
So it's setting up a really, really high bar for the meaningful life.
So a lot of us feel like, oh, maybe my life is not that meaningful because what kind of difference am I making in the world?
But at the same time, ironically, just like happiness trapped, empirical findings about meaning is very, very different from this pre -notion of meaningful life is something grand.
Actually, 90 percent of Americans say their life is meaningful.
How could it be, right?
Ninety percent of Americans really making a huge difference in the world.
By definition, you can't be that outlier if you're 90 percent.
No. So, what they find meaning is a small thing in life, right, raising kids.
Of course, it takes a lot of time, and every day you're just trying hard to help them, or you know, helping our Asian parents or just doing, you know, coaching little league baseball.
You know, those are the things that gives you a sense of meaning, but that's a pretty small, like you have to choose one or two particular causes, right.
In order to do it repeatedly, making a difference and seeing the difference that effort gave rise to.
So that's perfectly fine.
I have nothing against happiness or nothing against meaning.
Indeed, 25 years, I still do happiness research. I still do meaning.
I think the happiness and meaning important path to the good life, but the recent findings, and this was really disturbing to me personally, that Laura King's lab found that those people who endorse right -wing authoritarianism, I you have to obey to the authority no matter what.
I mean it's like very extreme.
And it turned out those people who endorse those items tend to report that their lives are more meaningful than the people who do not endorse right -wing authoritarianism.
So what's happening is that some cases you can just draw narrow sort of the in group.
These are the people I care and I draw meaning.
I find meaning from helping these small number of...
but then sometimes these people don't care about others.
So that's the potential misplaced meaning in life that sometimes meaningful life seems to be very narrow in some case might be harmful to others.
I mean, it's so interesting because when you hear the conversation around meaning, it's pretty much always framed in the positive.
And you're not saying that meaning is a bad You're saying like meaning is important, meaning matters.
We all want more of it.
It's a part of a life well lived, but I would almost describe it as like, there's an overexpression or an extreme expression or a particular expression of meaning seeking that can become very insular and very isolating, even though when you're in it, to you it feels deeply meaningful, but it makes your world smaller and potentially even can end up causing harm to those outside that small world.
Did I get that right?
Yeah, definitely. Extreme example is really why some people joined terrorist organizations.
And one of the reasons is that terrorist organization, of course, gives you that guiding principle of how you live your life and how you sacrifice your life for the greater good.
But sometimes, of course, if it's a terrorist organization, you have the target group to harm.
So maybe this is obviously extreme case, but you don't have meaning in life.
Therefore you join particular group and then you feel like you're enlightened.
And now you have a sense of mission.
I know how to devote my life, but some case that could hurt the other people who are not within your group.
So that's That's the part of the meaning trap.
I mean, extreme case.
Yeah, yeah, no, of course.
If we accept that happiness matters to a life we live, except that meaning matters to a life we live, and also that both of those, there's a potential dark side.
I would imagine there is to anything that is expressed in a dysfunctional way, right?
Definitely. Then you introduce this third concept, which I think is really fascinating, which is this idea that you call psychological richness.
So take me into this.
Yeah. So we define psychologically rich life as a life filled with interesting, unusual, diverse experiences.
And oftentimes these experiences come with the change in perspective.
And here we are talking about, you know, a lot of changes in your life.
And, you know, your experience in different things in the different phase of your life, or you know, different years and things like that.
So isn't that much of stability in your life?
Maybe, but instead you, you know, one year you study abroad in Mexico, you know, another year there's a job offer from Singapore and might move to Singapore.
And it's kind of interesting, but people who do study abroad, for instance, I mean, study abroad is hard. If you don't the language there.
All of a sudden, you feel like you're the dumbest person on earth.
So that in terms of happiness, it's not happiness maximizing strategy to do study abroad.
If you're not being able to speak the language for instance, or don't know that custom.
And sometimes, you know, if you live in a different culture, your meaning system and beliefs are challenged.
So sometimes you feel like, oh, what am I doing?
What I believe to be meaningful path, might not be the necessarily meaningful path, but these students after the study abroad come back with a fresh new perspective, and then they know, Oh, I learn really something new.
I didn't know these things happens and could be valuable and so forth.
So the experience like study abroad, it is very hard to quantify what's the utility?
What's the value if you measure happiness, not much there, if you measure meaning, not much there either.
But if you measure in terms of psychological richness or richness of experiences, then definitely study abroad is adding a lot.
Moving to a new city is another one that it doesn't really make people happy.
So this is a prediction era, often time, right?
People take a job...
It's like, I'm going to go to this new place, everything will be better.
Yeah, exactly. More exciting, more friends, new, yeah, yeah, yeah.
because I'm going to make a lot more money and it's going to be great.
And it's like, okay, you have a new job.
Yeah. Your pain might have increased, but you have to get to know all the new people.
You don't know how things work and it's really frustrating and so forth.
So, if you look at the happiness, I mean, some move obviously is happiness producing, but some moves and many of them are not very much happiness enhancing at all.
These kinds of decisions people make like, should I go?
Should I stay? And then when they go, if you just look at this as a happiness, as an ultimate outcome, then it's not a good decision.
But at the same time, if you use this third dimension of psychological richness, do you have more interesting stories to tell?
Probably, yes. Was it hard?
Yes, very, very hard. Would I do it again?
Maybe. Psychological richness to me is just trying to capture the aspects of life that people admire but not really well captured by the existing concepts like happiness and meaning.
And particularly experience like a study abroad or taking job abroad, move into a new city, putting yourself in a new environment.
Those are the things that I think people admire.
Objectively speaking, there is something admirable about those kinds of life.
If you just measure happiness or meaning, you're not capturing those.
So my hope is to capture these kinds of adventurous life as a third way and third path to a good life.
It is so interesting, right?
Because so often we judge what we've done by did it make me happier, was it meaningful, or when we're looking at something and asking ourselves should I do this or should I not do it.
We're like, do I think it'll make me happier or do I think it'll have meaning in it?
And you're offering like a third metric here.
You're saying, well, it actually might not have either, at least in the moment.
But if it adds adventure, exploration, stories to your life, it adds to this experience of psychological richness.
And that that is on par with these other elements of happiness and meaning in what actually makes for a life well lived.
So this is something to consider in your decision making process as well.
Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say.
So in the long run, if you lived very comfortable life, And you know, you're already happy, happy with what you have. And at the end of life, at deathbed, you might say, yeah, I had a good life, I was happy.
On the other hand, if you led that life and never challenged yourself, went beyond the comfort zone, then would you become a wise person, wiser than you could have been?
Probably not. So I feel like somebody who led the psychologist, rich life, they might not necessarily say it was fun.
I lead the happy life, but at the same time, I think they can say that, Oh, I learned a lot.
I feel like I'm much wiser.
So the wisdom to me is the big sort of the reward for leading the psychologically rich life.
But at the same time, some people are so stressed out and they want to be happy.
So then there's a good strategy already, right?
Just have coffee with your friends, enjoy your dinner with your wife or siblings.
That's great. That's great.
You should do it. But if that's not for you, then maybe there's another way as well.
And I'm glad you actually shared that because there will be some people who are listening to this and you're like, I'm feeling like life isn't quite what I want it to be and I'm wondering what else could be a part of it.
And so you offer this notion of psychological out richness and exploration.
And at the same time, it's almost like in Buddhism.
You have a monastic path and a householder path.
And in either way, it's sort of saying you're still doing the thing.
But everyone comes to this moment, to this season of life with a different history, with a different set of expectations, and with different set points for what will make them feel nourished, make them feel like they're flourishing.
So maybe there are folks who are actually just having a very quiet, deeply connected life with people around them, and with a place where they are.
That actually is enough, like that's really good.
Yeah, that's great.
So I think that, I mean, those people who are completely content, satisfied with what they have and they know exactly what they want.
So like oftentimes, international survey of happiest country.
Those are like Finland, No Way, and so forth.
But then you read about then what's a secret to happiness.
And they all say, oh we don't expect too much we know what's enough.
So I think if that's what you want, and then that's exactly what you should be pursuing.
That's great. And you know exactly what you like and you can get it because we know how to get there.
Yeah I mean that brings up another really interesting point was this notion that happiness or fulfillment, the definition of that varies dramatically based on culture.
One culture may say you keep your expectations winds pretty low, and then it's easy to hit that bar.
And then you feel like good, I'm doing the thing.
I'm succeeding, I'm checking those boxes.
Whereas you get another country or another culture or maybe just another community or group which has a completely different bar.
And you feel like it's almost unattainable so that I'm not living that life that I want to live.
And it speaks to how subjective this often is.
It really is. And I think that Williams James said it really nicely that you can increase.
So he was talking about self -esteem, but I'm just replacing self -esteem with the happiness, but you can maximize happiness by achieving all your ambitions you have. So that's sort of the American approach. I have these kinds of ambitions and I want to achieve them.
And when you achieve them, yeah, you are probably happy, at least for a while.
Other way to do it, why do you need to achieve all those?
Just reduce the ambition to one or two manageable one, then all you need to do is achieve just the two things and then you're equally happy.
So these are two completely different approaches.
There are cultural variations, there are individual differences, developmental stage differences, but it is interesting.
And I do a lot of cross -cultural research. So one really interesting research here is that we just asked my colleague in 30 different countries, what is happiness?
the word happiness in your own language?
And then just, could you look it up the definition of happiness in the most authoritative dictionary in your own language, and then just could you translate that into English so we can look at the meaning?
24 out of 30 countries, primary definition of happiness are still good luck and fortune, and six countries are not.
And of course the US is one of them.
Of course, right. The US is like, more stuff.
Yeah, more stuff. Satisfaction on my knees.
Right, right, right.
Not that either one is necessarily good or bad, it's just interesting to see how the cultural differences really can affect those definitions.
And those definitions affect how we perceive ourselves and what we strive for.
Exactly. That approach to happiness is completely different.
As you said, the Nordic approach to happiness is appreciating what you have. And traditionally American approaches is just to go out there and pursue actively and try to achieve as many things as possible.
So, that could be very exhausting path to happiness.
And I think a lot of people are finding that right now.
They're finding they're burned out, they're exhausted, they're overwhelmed and trying to figure out, why am I feeling this way?
And there may be, probably even checking so many of the boxes that they aspire to check, and yet they're not feeling the way they wanted to feel.
And it's like, well, maybe our fundamental definition of is in some way off.
Because it's not, we're doing all the things, but we're not feeling the way that we want to feel.
And just to be fair, really, one of the earliest most important findings from happiness research was exactly that.
Like Dan Gilbert's effective forecasting error.
like, we think the promotions or wedding or something like that will make us happy.
Not really. I mean, it does make us happy, but it doesn't last that long.
And what makes us happy is the little thing.
So it's, happiness is not an intensity, but the frequency of the positive emotions.
So that's why interpersonal relationship is so important because your friends, and your partner will make you happy every day.
Promotion, I don't know.
How often do you get promotion?
I don't even know. Like once every five years, ten years?
So, you shouldn't depend your happiness on that infrequent, intense events.
You should really focus on everyday experiences.
And that's the key, if you want to be happy.
I remember reading Dan's work on effective forecasting And it was blown away when, if I have this right, I remember he was saying that the research shows that we tend to think that 20 years out, we're really good at predicting how we would feel if we check these spots.
If we have a partner, if we have a job, if we have certain money in the bank, if we have a house, and we are notoriously horrible at that.
In fact, from what I remember, the research showed that if we ask a stranger who is 20 years further down the road who has those things we aspire to how they feel, their answer is gonna be more accurate then our answer would eventually be for ourselves in that time window because we're just terrible at figuring out how things will make us feel.
And in my lab, when I was in graduate school, at Dina's, looked at the longitudinal studies about the life events, and essentially the effect of these engagements or promotion, it lasts only three months to six months.
That's it. So we just adapt, hedonic adaptation is everywhere.
So it is really difficult to rely on these big events, but the little one, it happens often so that's the reliable source of happiness.
Yeah so let's drop a little bit more in detail into this experience of psychological richness.
It sounds like, okay so here's an...
it's effectively like here's another bucket that we can explore filling to feel the way we want to feel, and live the life we want to live.
So what are the ingredients here?
It sounds like one of them is probably some level of novelty, like something new and different.
It's interesting. We started out with the focus group group.
So I asked under graduate in my lab, so just think about what you did last weekend.
What was the happy event?
Yeah. The usual thing.
And then the meaningful event, the usual thing I said, okay, what was the psychologically rich event?
What I mean is something interesting, you know, something unusual.
And then the one person, grace did this interesting thing over the weekend.
she went to professional wrestling match and she never had been to that kind of stuff.
So she had the stereotype, Oh, these are like orchestrated violence with just a fake stuff.
But she went there and realized that there are a lot of little kids and why there are little kids in the professional wrestling match?
And then later she realized that the WWE is really doing huge anti -bullying campaigns.
So, these bullied kids come here and root for these professional wrestlers, and wrestlers are the hero for them.
So, she came back. This is very unusual experiences.
You don't go to professional wrestling match every day.
Indeed, this was the first time she went there.
She experienced a lot of different kinds of emotions, and, of course, came back with a completely perspective, completely different perspective on professional wrestlers and professional wrestling organization.
So, this was really psychological -rich experiences because there were these three ingredients.
Okay. Another student, Rachel, the same weekend, she reported this interesting, unusual experience, which is she lives in the apartment.
She went to the lounge and then she found this guy typing something, but completely naked.
So it's like, she's wondering like, what is he doing here?
Naked typing, right?
Like weird guy. But then she thought, is it hot?
No, it's not even hot.
Is he hot? I mean, the physically attractive.
No, he's not even like a well -built this guy is like showing off his muscle or anything like that.
So, she reports coming back that was really weird and interesting unusual experience.
Is this psychologically rich experience?
No, because this experience did not change her perspective in life or perspective on young men or whatever at all.
So obviously the novelty, unusualness and things like that are important ingredient.
But I think crucial difference, what makes some experience really psychologically deeper and interesting versus not is the variety of emotions experience during the activities, but also you really have to have something like change.
So we earlier talked about study abroad and what's amazing about study abroad is of course, you're so frustrated, you have really diverse different kinds of emotions, right?
And also you really often come away with a very different perspective in life.
So I think the psychological rich experience has to have those novelty, diversity of sort of the emotional experience, some complexity, but also sort of this new perspective changing insight.
Yeah, I mean, so that's so interesting, so effectively three ingredients if I have it, right?
One is novelty, so it's got to be new and different from what you would normally do.
The second is a variety or diversity of emotions wrapped up in it.
And the third is perspective changing.
Like you can't walk away kind of feeling the same way about yourself or the world.
Like something has to shift. That's right.
It's fascinating because when you think about, the thing that pops to my mind that sort of checks those boxes for a lot of people is travel.
I think that's why a lot of people go to, and travel to places which are not sort of necessarily comfortable for you, Maybe to another country with a radically diverse culture, a language that you don't understand or speak, and then rather than just going on the tourist bus and checking the boxes, but actually spending time with people and understanding the culture, it's really uncomfortable oftentimes.
But if you're there long enough and you're curious enough, you come away, not just with great stories to tell, but you see yourself and the world differently.
But the thing that was popping into my mind also, because a lot of people may be listening to this, well, that's lovely for those who can do that type of travel.
But what about the rest of us?
And I would imagine you can get similar experiences all day, every day, just in your local community.
So this is not a thing where you have to have resources or privilege to actually drop into this.
Yeah, I mean, goodwill hunting is a good case, right?
Well, hunting said famously, you don't have to spend $150 ,000 for the fancy education.
All you need is a library card and maybe $1 .50 late charge.
You can go to library and read incredible novels.
Go through unbelievable amount of...
I mean, Anna Karenina, for instance.
Just go up and down the emotionally and come away with a completely different concept of love or your life and things like that.
So, definitely you can do it without spending a lot of money.
I mean, movie nowadays is expensive, but even movie, right?
Some movie is just like fun and you just come away and, oh, spent two hours like it was fun.
Whereas some movie is really deep, disturbing sometimes, but does change you, remains you, stays with you.
So I think there are a lot of opportunities out there without spending too much money to expose yourself to the different kinds of experiences vicariously.
And you can really, really feel like, oh, I see the world in a very different way now, or I can see the viewpoint.
I love that because it's so accessible.
You think about books that take you somewhere and leave you changed.
Think about documentaries, like fantastic documentaries where you're just like, wow, I recently watched a documentary about waste, actually.
And my mind was blown.
It wasn't something I've ever been exposed to before in that way and I was like I have changed my behavior since like I've seen things differently and it really affected me you know so it's I love this invitation that says that you don't necessarily have to be the protagonist in the story you can be the one who's the witness and that experience can also have this effect yeah definitely and some of the experiences that are probably most psychologically rich are not even like intentional one a lot of people say oh when I was like fifth grade, there was a huge earthquake and I lost my house and everything.
So it's a terrible story at the beginning, but then often time they see something really unusual.
The neighbors that they never talked to came over and help us like search our dog and then you really see the humanities in a very, very different way.
So, over time, you can reconstruct that earthquake experience as psychologically rich experience.
Is it a painful experience?
Of course, it's an extremely painful experience.
Does it add to your meaning?
No really, but you have some extraordinary experience in your pocket and you see the world thanks to that very differently.
And my research also showed that those people who experience natural disaster, they tend to become way more pro -social.
They are much more likely to seek pro -social occupations.
So social workers, teachers, the probability of then becoming those are much higher compared to those who never experienced.
So to me that the psychologically rich experiences or opportunities is out there, not necessarily, you have to just constantly seek yourself.
Right, sometimes it's just things that happen to you or around you.
Exactly. I think it also speaks to the role of potentially adversity, you know, and it gives us a frame.
It gives us, you know, a way to frame adversity potentially is, we're not saying this is a good thing, you should go, go seeking horrible things, but if you're alive long enough, bad things happen.
But if you have the frame that says, you know, like as I meet adversity, whether I invited it or not, that maybe there is a way for this to actually affect me in a way that it adds to my experience of life, it changes my perspective, it's, you know, it's novel, it's, you know, all the emotions are there, it's just my perspective and I didn't ask for it, I didn't want it but when I move through it, that it actually has added in a meaningful way to the way I'm living my life from that moment forward. "-Yeah, exactly." as you're describing that i was i was living in new york city for many years and i
was there during 9 11 and that was my experience there was like profound profound hark you know horror and shock and and upset and you know knowing people who didn't come home that day and but being in new york then has changed me it gave me a world view that says we are promised nothing there's an urgency not a frantic urgency but there's a an urgency to the way that i've lived my life since That is different in a noticeable way I think.
And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.
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So you know, travel has this incredible way of shifting our perspective, but the logistics can pull us out of the moment.
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Terms apply. On the flip side of this, and this is one of the things that you speak about and write about is this notion of playfulness as a quality that folds into psychological richness.
Cheese this out for me a bit also.
So playfulness is, according to Eric, you know, Ericsson, is the escape from social and economic realities.
We, adults have so many responsibilities, like for me, I have to teach, I have to grade, obviously I have to do a lot of things.
But that playfulness or being playful means you take some time out from these realities and he says reside in somewhere in between reality and fantasy.
And of course, if you have a dog, right, then the dog lives in this area every day when he chased a tennis ball.
If you have five years old, every day live in this reality and fantasy world in between just that we adult have a lot of serious business to take care of.
So we forget how to be playful.
So being playful is really being like 5 years old, being like a dog and do a lot of pretend and just forget about what other people think about, which is actually very difficult things to do.
Yeah. I think by the time we get older, we're so bound by social propriety.
And so often, part of that is, there's a seriousness.
There's a gravitas to the way you live your life.
The playfulness is the thing that you did when you were a kid.
and when you start to be that way, you almost feel uncomfortable because it's been trained out of us.
Oh, it is very uncomfortable.
Right. But I wonder if you're in a place where everybody is doing that, where it becomes normalized and all of a sudden, it's like those are the moments where, if you're at a concert for someone, like you love and just like, there are tens of thousands of people all lost in the moment and singing and dancing, even though you're normal, if you would never do that, but everyone around you is doing it.
So you're like, oh, I'm okay doing this and it can reconnect you.
Like, oh, I can feel this way and that matters.
Definitely, I think historically, if you look at festivals, right?
Festival where like New Orleans, of course, you know, like you just like put the mask and just go crazy.
And that's really organized way, like cultural defense against monotonic, like boring life.
And the culture often creates the opportunity for everybody to be playful.
Japan is an extremely serious country as you might know.
But then there's an Obon festival where we all just dance together.
And of course, there's a karaoke box where you can go and sing and go crazy.
So I think that it would be nice to have some easy outlet, like culturally approved outlet, like a concert, like the karaoke box and festivals.
And those are the things that you can do, but then you can just sort of imitate that at home.
And then you can, you can easily do the singing parties or dancing.
It is difficult for like 50 something years old like myself, but I think you can, and we should occasionally for sure.
Yeah, that's so great.
And I think some of us touch, you know, if you're fortunate, and if you make a decision to become a parent and you have like a young child in the house, you drop into that, just because that's what you do with a young kid.
You're kind of in it together, but then they reach a certain age and they seem to shift a little bit and you're like, oh, I guess I'm not doing that anymore.
And you probably never realize how much it added to your life to just be able to like have that freedom to.
Definitely, definitely.
So parenting is extremely difficult.
Like happiness researchers knows that being parents it's not really happiness producing, activities at all.
Meaning, yes. But I think when the kids are small, it is really enrich your life because you play with kids and then you become kids.
What you have to do is even when your kids became teenagers, you just have to find somebody to play with and be playful yourself.
Yeah. You can't do it around them anymore because all you get is rollbacks.
Teenage years are hard. It's like drop me off two blocks from school.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Teenagers are hard, I mean hard. One of the other things that you explore, under this sort of, like the umbrella of psychological richness, is the notion of aesthetic experiences I thought was really interesting.
Like the value of beauty and art.
You know, I personally love going to museums. So I've been thinking about like, what's the role of art?
And does it increase happiness?
Yes, some, yes, right?
Monet's beautiful painting might do.
But at the same time, Picasso's and something like that would not necessarily do.
And essentially, I came back and think that, yeah, I think that art is not really made to boost happiness or even give you a sense of meaning per se.
Obviously, most of the artists just had something inside they wanted to just express.
So they just did it, not for others, but oftentimes for themselves.
But some art really resonate the way you feel about or just make you think about the life in a very different way.
The Picasso's like two woman like sitting together in one figure.
And in Chicago Institute, there's one piece by Picasso, two women, and from one angle is his wife, and from the other angle, it's his lover.
And he created this, right?
Because he was so conflicted about, should I stay or should I go?
And these things, right?
Like when you see it initially, it's like, what is this weird painting?
But then you learn about it and then it's like, oh wow.
And now I see this.
And you think about your conflict or something like that.
So I think those are the thing again it's new and gives you a new perspectives and sometimes you feel like oh yeah now I get it.
Oh you have to see it from this way and then there's a behind the story like this, so how many things we do day to day gives you the opportunity to think about that hard and think about like these kinds of diverse perspective, so I think art is just a wonderful way to transcend yourself and transport yourself, detach from the everyday realities, and just live again in a fantasy world a little bit, and then you can just come back safely and then move on with your life.
So that's really a wonderful way to, I think, enrich your life.
Yeah, I so agree with that.
I'm somebody who tends to love different forms of art and it's funny, because I'll sometimes have a conversation with somebody and they'll say, I'm not an art person.
Like I just don't, I don't get art.
Art's not my thing.
And I'm always kind of like raising an eyebrow at that because I'm thinking to myself, well like, that's like saying I don't like food.
Okay, so maybe you don't like this kind of food or this particular chef or this restaurant or this type of cuisine, but there's such a diversity of expression and sharing and beauty that is created and offered out.
And when you find that one thing, when you're walking through a museum and maybe that there are 40 exhibits and 39 just do nothing for you, and then you stop in this one tiny one and your jaw drops and you're having trouble breathing, your heart is beating, you have no idea what's happening to you.
And you're like, oh, wow, this matters to me.
Like this, it's just so deeply powerful.
But I think similar to what we've been talking about here, let's bring this down to the everyday level.
We can have that aesthetic experience sitting on a front porch and just being present to what's around us.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, you can just look up the sky and sometimes a crowd looks like a human, rabbit or whatever, and sometimes you find it something new, right?
And you don't have to just go to the museum all the time.
But I think if you pay attention enough, In summer, I volunteer to water a street tree around, and you know, once you start doing that everyday, all of a sudden it becomes my tree, and it's just like, oh my gosh, I see the new leaves here and so forth, and then, those are completely new things you can add to your life without any money, or anything, just pay attention and you find something.
Yeah, I love that. Because it also brings in this idea that to experience psychological richness pretty much everything that we've talked about.
It feels like to me, and I'm curious if how this lands with you that a unifying element is attentiveness.
Is awareness, is actually like not spinning about the future or the past, but like if you can really bring your attention to the moment and just, you know, become aware of like what am I actually experiencing that there's probably so much more opportunity to experience these things all around us all day, every day than most of us even imagine.
Yeah, definitely. It has a lot to do with attention.
It has a lot to do with whether you talk about your observations.
So it is nice to have partner or friends or kids who listen to you, that, look, I heard this interesting talk today, or I saw this, something like that.
And the memory, the way it works is unless you rehearse and you talk about it, it doesn't stay with you, you just forget.
And once you forget, you're not really accumulating these experiences.
So, to me, psychological richness is just like material wealth and material richness.
The materially rich people have a lot of assets or money in their banks and a huge portfolio.
Just like that, psychological richness is the currency now is instead of dollar, we're talking about the experience and the story.
So then if you can just accumulate these interesting experiences and you have a lot of stories, then you have a very, very rich, psychologically rich portfolio.
So in order to have that, that's why the sensation seeker, they do experience a lot of things, but they don't necessarily reflect upon and You need to really keep it and you know, store it in your memorabilia.
So that's the things that you need to pay attention, but also you have to cherish that experience and you really have to, you want to store in your memorabilia and adds up so that psychologically speaking, you are really wealthy person.
Do you have a practical take on how to do that?
I mean, journaling is it something where...
I think if you can do journal, I think that really, really helps.
I'm the same. I've tried it, just like it's never taken.
I just cannot never do it.
But at the same time I feel very fortunate that I can talk to my wife and often, you know, reminiscent and recall this trip and, oh, do you remember that trip when we went this and that?
And you know, when you do it, you're just bringing back and then just like, you know, bringing this almost receding memory into that so that you don't, you know, lose these experiences.
So, I think, you know, to me, I just try to like talk about the interesting experience I had every day.
And that's one way to sort of keep stock of these interesting experiences.
But if you're a conscientious person, I think the journaling will work.
If you're sort of more a visual person taking photo, you know, every day or when you find something interesting and then keep it, then you have album of memorabilia for the future.
So I think there are many different ways you can do it.
No, I love that idea.
I wonder if, in the age that we live in, also, just like we were talking about earlier in our conversation, there are potential certain risks to aggressive of happiness -seeking or aggressive meaning -seeking that there's also potential risk to aggressive recording of what you're experiencing.
I think we see it now with people, you know, you're at that concert and everybody's there having the time of their lives and you're obsessed with getting just the right picture or just the right video because you want to post it on whatever your platform is and share it and get, you know, credit for having been there and rather than just being in the moment and enjoying it, you know, part of your brain is sitting there saying, how do I capture this and share it in a way that is the best possible.
So I feel like there's the aggressive over -expression of that that we're seeing a lot of also, which just takes us out of the experience itself.
I mean, the step one is, you have to do the experience part.
So, it always, you know, drive me crazy.
When I go to, you know, Chicago Art Institute, some people just go there, take picture, move on, take picture, move on, take picture.
And I know they are not gonna look at it like, you know, afterward. it.
Plus, if you really wanted to look at it, all these photos are already there so you can find it.
I feel like you do have to experience first. You have to immerse yourself and that is number one key.
Just like a good memory in order for you to remember that encoding is extremely important, so you have to have the full encoding experiencing.
If you're just like, oh, taking pictures, then you're just already outsourcing.
So, you're not deeply processing this initial experience.
So, number one, you have to pay attention deeply absolved.
And then you can move on to sort of how to store that experience.
Yeah, and as you're describing that literally just a few weeks ago, I was at a local art museum.
And I wandered into an exhibit of somebody I'd never heard of before.
And it was just mesmerized by her work, and literally I felt the impulse as I stood in front of each painting to reach down, take my phone out of my pocket, take a picture, and I had to keep telling myself, nuh nuh nuh, like if you wanna go back afterwards and just capture a few because, you know, to remember it, great.
But just be here now.
Like for now, just move through it, take your time, breathe, sit.
Be affected by the aesthetic experience.
And then if I want to go back and just capture a few on my phone camera afterwards, then I will actually have the emotional imprint of that aesthetic experience that I can tie to the image when I look at it again.
But if I'd never allowed myself to actually have that imprint, then the image, it just reminds me that I did the thing, but the thing becomes hollow.
Right, right, exactly, exactly.
I'm just so deeply fascinated by this work and excited to continue to deepen into it.
In actually the appendix of your recent book, you developed a psychologically rich life questionnaire.
Tell me about where this comes from and how people might be able to actually tap it to bring more of this into their own lives.
Yeah, one of the first things we did was just try to define what we mean by the psychological rich life.
And then we just generated as a lab members, like we had maybe 10 or 15 of us, just write a sentence that capture what we think is a psychological rich life.
So we had like 85 items. And then just get rid of redundancy and so forth and ended up with 17 items, which is in the appendix.
We are self -report, but asking, what do you think?
When you die, do you think you will say that you had a interesting life?
Do you have a lot of interesting stories to tell?" And things like that.
So definitely people can take that questionnaire, I still haven't done this, but I will put it on my website so that people can just answer and then get the feedback, you know, where they are, whether they're living really psychologically rich life, average, or relatively psychologically poor, you know, life.
So yeah, that's just really one way to quantify and one way for me and us to just study.
What predicts really the psychological rich life?
What are the core rates?
So what I talked about today have a lot to do with this, essentially the data that we collected using these questionnaires.
We also coded all kinds of obituaries, so that we know what kind of life each person lead.
So we do, you know, in a different ways to capture psychologically rich life.
But a question here is one easy way to do it.
Yeah, I love it as just a tool to get a baseline.
It's not a judgment.
It's just saying okay, so here's an interesting insight, you know, like do with it whatever feels right to you.
Yeah. Yeah. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well.
So I always wrap these conversations with the same questions.
So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?
I think it's you know you have to ask yourself what do you care?
What kind of life is the ideal life for you?
And I think it's all about your honest answer to it and I would say the fulfillment of whatever you care, whatever you value is a good life.
And for some I think it's a happiness, for some it's a meaning and for others it's I think the psychologically rich life adventurous life, or curious life.
And I think for others, there might be something else.
And I think it will be interesting to figure out what's the fourth dimension, fifth dimensions, and sixth dimension.
So I'm not constraining myself to be just three.
But I think that three provides a little bit bigger, wider range of what is a good life than just two.
Hey if you loved this episode, safe bet you'll also love the conversation we had with Cory Keyes about escaping the epidemic of languishing!
You can find a link to that episode in the show notes.
This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields.
Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young, Christopher Carter crafted our theme music.
And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too.
If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring chances are you did because you're still listening here.
Do me a personal favor, a seven -second favor, share it with just one person.
I mean if you want to share it with more that's awesome too but just one person even then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter because that's how we all come alive together.
Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project.
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