Hi, crime junkies.
I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.
And I'm Britt.
And I have an interesting one for you today.
One where I ask you to put aside old tropes and quick judgments and listen all the way to the end of the story.
Because you just might find the thing that I have come to learn over the years.
That when you go beyond the surface level of a case, things are never as simple as they appear.
Because this case on its surface seems like one that you might have heard before.
A tragic tale.
Old is true crime.
Woman tells her husband she wants a divorce.
Woman goes missing.
And husband does and says all the wrong things which make everyone around him think that he is oh so guilty of a crime that they can't prove even happened.
He eventually dies under a cloud of suspicion and the case is still unsolved.
But if the husband did it, and it was that obvious, why couldn't police make their case?
For just a moment, I want us all to consider something.
What if the reason this case hasn't been solved isn't because answers went with her husband to the grave?
What if it's because no one ever looked for answers in the right place?
And if we could step back and reconsider what we think we know?
Is it possible that to finally find Bonnie Lee Schultz?
In the summer of 1997, Bonnie Lee Schultz found herself in a position that many women have.
She had gotten married young to her high school boyfriend and jumped quickly into the role of homemaker, following her husband's job wherever it took them.
And over 26 years of marriage, she raised two kids who she loved more than anything.
But no amount of love from them back could fill the space that she felt growing between her and her husband Rick.
It wasn't the kind of thing that I think happens all at once because of something said or done.
It's this like lifetime of small decisions that send two people growing in separate directions.
But there came a time for Bonnie when I think finding a way back to each other probably didn't seem possible.
About the time her youngest would have been going into first grade, Bonnie decided to join the workforce.
So she got a job at a company called RGIS, or sometimes called Regis, doing inventory audits at stores in the area.
I don't know if the goal was just to like get a little more independence and identity outside of the home, or if it was just to have some extra money, since her husband kept her on a tight budget.
But it served to do both, nonetheless.
And Rick wasn't a fan.
Bonnie told her friend Diane that Rick made it clear.
I mean she could go get her full time job, but he still expected her to have the house cleaned and dinners ready at the same way he did when she was a stay at home mom.
So she juggled it all.
But with time away came perspective, and perspective is everything.
The more Bonnie was around other people and saw other relationships, she became less satisfied with her own.
Now I have no idea how many conversations she and Rick had in the privacy of their own home about her unhappiness or the unique challenges of their relationship.
But they never discussed marital problems in public, at least not until 1997.
That's when things were coming to a head.
Aside from whatever she was feeling internally about her marriage.
Her mother got diagnosed with cancer and made a quick decline.
She passed away in 1995, which I'm sure kind of brought with it a whole other host of feelings.
Mm-hmm.
And so by Easter 1997, when her and Rick were in Wisconsin for her niece's first communion, Bonnie's brother Mike, says that he and his siblings witnessed the first fight that he had ever seen between the couple.
Bonnie had instigated it, pointing out that Rick didn't do things for her that other husbands did for their wives.
The specifics are lost on Mike all these years later, but he said it was kind of her just being like you know so-and-so, does this for their wife.
This person does that.
You don't do any of these things for me.
And he said it might have started as banter, but it actually got heated until finally the couple just like stopped.
And probably in like good Midwest fashion, everyone sat in awkward silence for about half a second before trying to just like change the subject and pretend like they didn't see what just happened.
Well, and I wonder how much of that was brought on by her mom's situation.
Like not just watching her die and all the emotions that come with that but, like you said, it was quick.
So like the idea that any moment could be your last.
Your life is so short.
Right.
It would make you like really take stock of things.
That's what I was saying, like brings up this whole host of feelings.
Like, am I happy?
Am I living the life that I want to live?
And I mean I could read into this for days, because traditionally the farther back you go in generations, the more you have just these like expectations of what it means to be a wife and a mother and married.
And like you pick a path at 19 and then all of a sudden that is your lot in life when you're 45.
Like, was her mother happy?
I don't know.
I know nothing about her mother's life and marriage.
Actually, Rick does say that he feels that this kind of was like playing a part.
Yeah, but I see your point.
I think it's a good one.
Like death in general just gets people thinking, and it is very possible and likely, based on what Rick later says, that whatever was bubbling under the surface got accelerated by her mother's death.
Because after that fight in Wisconsin things don't go back to status quo when they get back to Indianapolis.
Two weeks before she went missing, Bonnie called one of her closest friends, Diane DeSando.
The two actually lived pretty close to each other, and so they would often go for walks whenever one phoned the other.
But this time when Bonnie called, Diane knew that it was different right away.
I mean, for one, it was late when she called, like 9 p.m.
And when she heard Bonnie's voice, she could tell right away that she was upset.
So the two met up for a walk and she said Bonnie just like unloaded.
She said Rick made her feel unappreciated and ugly.
Their intimacy was gone and she had to beg him for any affection.
And this, all of this was already taking Diane aback.
I mean, they hung out like with the couple, like her and her husband all together.
They played cards all the time.
She had no idea, but you never really know, yeah.
But then bonnie, this is when she dropped the real bomb.
She said i'm about to have an affair and i really don't want to do that to rick, but you know, i need somebody that makes me feel appreciated and loved, and i don't feel that anymore with him.
And so Diane was like well, why don't you just ask Rick for a divorce?
Tell him you don't want to be married anymore.
And Bonnie said that she was afraid of how Rick would react.
But clearly that's where things were headed, because she also said that she was going to start looking for apartments, though she had no idea how she was going to actually afford one.
I mean, she wanted something close by so the kids could still see their dad.
But even the two bedrooms were too much.
And she probably really needed three since her son was 15 and her daughter was 10.
And the bigger issue at hand was that she didn't even know how to get a divorce or how much that would even cost.
And so she was really looking to Diane for some kind of advice or help.
And Diane was still married.
So she's like, listen, I have no clue.
Like, what about one of your sisters?
Can you ask them?
And Bonnie was like, no, no, no, no.
I don't want any family knowing at this point.
So Diane made another suggestion.
She said, well, isn't there a lady at work who you said is divorced?
Like, maybe you can ask her.
And there was possibly more than one.
But I know for sure that Bonnie began confiding in a woman named Anita Cardone.
Just to pause for a second.
Can we go back to the affair comment real quick?
Like, was there someone specific she was talking about or was she just like, I'm so lonely.
I have to do something like.
This is the path that I'm on based on, like where my relationship with my husband is.
In this conversation with Diane, she doesn't name anyone specific.
And Diane didn't press for a name or details at the time.
She just kind of wanted to let Bonnie vent without prying too much.
And she assumed if there was someone, it would probably just be someone that Bonnie worked with.
And there actually was someone, and Diane's assumptions were spot on.
The man she was having an affair with was John Guy, and he worked at RGIS with Bonnie and Anita.
Now I don't know how her relationship with John started or exactly when, but Bonnie was getting bolder.
With every day that passed, she seemed more comfortable standing on her own, going places, making plans, whether Rick approved or not.
With people he didn't know.
She put a deposit down for a cruise that she planned to take with coworkers in December and, encouraged by Anita, she began going out more after work with, like that group of people to just grab drinks or to at least be social with those drinking because, like she wasn't much of a drinker herself,
So somewhere in all of that, something began to blossom between Bonnie and this John guy.
And she was probably feeling seen and cared for and so many other feelings that she probably resigned herself to believing were for other people.
Mm-hmm.
But it wasn't a fairy tale.
John told her he wasn't going to date a married woman.
So there wasn't a happy ending where she didn't hurt someone.
But for probably the first time in 26 years, Bonnie was going to choose herself.
On July 3rd 1997 she sat with Rick on the front porch of their home and, in no uncertain terms, told him that she wanted a divorce.
They went back and forth for a while, but there was no talking her out of it.
The time for compromise had passed.
Like, her mind was made up.
She wasn't going to keep arguing about it.
She told Rick that she was going to go to a house party with Anita to watch fireworks that night and that she would be back because she promised to take their daughter Gretchen, to a movie and then the family was going to go see a fireworks show together the next day.
It was going to be July 4th.
Diane recalls Bonnie saying how excited that Gretchen was for the fireworks.
So she was like set on going, even if it was going to be awkward being around Rick and their friends when no one else would know that they were about to separate.
And like the thing I want to get across is that whatever was happening between her and Rick, it did not change how she felt about her kids.
So at around 830 that night, after they have this conversation, she went inside and leaned down to kiss her daughter goodbye.
And her daughter Gretchen remembers her mom's necklace swinging as she did this.
The number one mom pendant that she and her brother Josh had gotten her for Mother's Day was like tapping her in the face.
With it being 97, I can close my eyes and see this pendant.
Yeah.
So Bonnie kisses her goodbye.
She walks out the door and drives off in her blue 1990 Mercury Sable.
And the mystery of what happens next has plagued those who love Bonnie for 28 years.
Now, if Bonnie left her house calm, cool and collected, that mask had melted away by the time she got to the Houlihan's restaurant where she met Anita and other co-workers.
Because Anita says that when Bonnie shows up she looked really upset.
Like Anita could tell that she'd been crying.
So she hustled Bonnie to the bathroom so they could talk in private.
And Bonnie told Anita that she just had this big fight with her husband, Rick.
She told him she wanted a divorce.
Rick said no.
Which is, that's not how that works.
Right.
And Anita said that Bonnie looked so upset that she even asked if Rick hit her.
But Bonnie said no.
Though she also told Anita that she didn't know what Rick might do.
Once Bonnie calmed down, they ate dinner with a few co-workers and then they went to that party where they could see fireworks at a house that was owned by this woman that John was friendly with.
Her name was Phyllis.
So they all stay at Phyllis's house until about 1230.
And then that's when a small group of them decide to move that party from the house to this bar that Phyllis worked at called the Time Out Lounge.
And it seems like they might have bopped over to another place first but, like all in all, they were at the Time Out Lounge as it got close to closing time.
And we actually talked to Phyllis for this story.
And it felt a little bit like we got to step back into a time machine, because guess where you can find her.
She still tends bar at the Time Out Lounge.
And she told us that she remembers that night like it was yesterday.
Phyllis didn't know Bonnie all that well.
She just knew her through John, and they'd come in a couple of times before.
And she said Bonnie never drank much, maybe a beer, and things were like par for the course that night.
She wasn't at dinner, but by the time Bonnie got to her house she seemed fine, as they watched fireworks and they all hung out at the bar.
Now, Anita told investigators that she left the bar at around 2 or 2.30 in the morning.
And Phyllis said that she called it quits not long after that, just before closing time around like 245.
And when she called it quits, Bonnie and John were still hanging out.
They actually had hung back with some staff till about 330 when it was very much like a you don't have to go, but you can't stay here situation.
The bar was like going to officially close up shop.
So when the final people trickled out of the parking lot, John and Bonnie were still there together, talking outside their cars.
And that was the last time other people saw Bonnie.
Less than five hours later, Gretchen was waking up to a whole new reality.
That morning, when she came downstairs, her dad was in the living room, fully dressed, reading with the dog in his lap.
It wasn't weird that he was up before her, but you know it was a little out of the norm that he wasn't still in his PJs.
And when she asked where her mom was, her dad just said that she was probably at a friend's house.
Like no biggie.
But it does feel odd when the day keeps slipping by without her there.
She doesn't show up to take Gretchen to the movie as planned.
Josh gets back from the sleepover that he was at by the afternoon, but Bonnie is still not there.
So...
At 5.10 p.m., Rick reports her missing.
A deputy from the Marion County Sheriff's Department goes to their house to take the report on the 4th.
He gets her vehicle information.
But when he hears that they had been having marital issues and they're talking about it before she leaves the house that night to go hang out with friends, he might make some assumptions that Bonnie is just going to turn back up.
I mean, he literally says, like, basically, call us if she does.
And then he leaves.
So not knowing what else to do, Rick tries to keep things as normal as possible for the kids.
They go to their friend's house to watch the fireworks as planned.
And Rick just tells the other people there that Bonnie had gone out with friends.
He doesn't mention that he had just reported her missing?
Not to them, no.
Wait, do the kids at this point realize that she's missing?
Like, they would have seen the deputy show up.
We talked to Josh.
He says that he doesn't remember the deputy coming to the house that Friday or his dad reporting her missing.
Which to me, like there is probably a world where he was trying to shield them from all of that.
Yeah.
So Josh can't remember exactly how or what his dad told him in those first few days.
He just knows that he knew something was wrong by Saturday, the next day for sure.
Now, no one calls or comes by the house on Saturday.
So not knowing what else to do.
That's when Rick starts looking for contact numbers for people that Bonnie worked with.
Specifically, Anita, since he knew that's who Bonnie was going out with that night.
Now, it took him some back and forth with Bonnie's boss, Felix, to get Anita on the phone.
But when he finally does, she tells him she has no clue where Bonnie was.
Mm-hmm.
She said they each headed home at like three o'clock in the morning.
Bonnie was fine then.
Now we know this isn't the whole truth, but she wasn't about to tell Rick that his wife hung back with John.
But she at least calls John right after she gets off the phone with Rick to see if he is with her.
And he's like, no, he had no clue.
He said that people couldn't find her and he hadn't seen her talk to her since they left the timeout lounge.
So since Anita is saying that Bonnie was driving home the last she saw her, Rick decides to go out and look for Bonnie or her car that Saturday night.
And then again with Josh first thing Sunday morning.
And Josh says that he remembers his dad seeming worried, but not overly frantic.
They were just kind of looking anywhere they could think of for her car or for any sign of her.
But no matter how many streets and parking lots they searched, there is just no sign of Bonnie.
So that night, this is Sunday night now, Rick calls her friend Diane, the one that she walks with.
And he's calling her to tell her that Bonnie's missing.
Now, it's about 7 p.m. when she gets that call.
And she said she answered the phone and left.
Rick's voice is kind of shaky and he he's just like um, I'm just calling to tell you that Bonnie's missing.
Is is this the first call she's getting about Bonnie?
Yeah.
So he didn't call her at all before to see if Diane had seen her, knew where she was.
No, which like you would kind of think.
Right.
But she says this is the first time she's finding out that nobody knows where Bonnie is.
It kind of feels like there's zero rhyme or reason as to who Rick is telling when he's telling them what they're telling.
And like, this all feels super weird.
It gave Diane a bad feeling, too.
And she said instantly, she thought, quote, you son of a, you killed her.
You did something to her.
End quote.
That's what she told us.
Now, Diane's husband told her, you know, you're just jumping to conclusions.
Bonnie is probably just staying with a friend or something.
But she's like, who?
You know, like whose house would she be at?
He said she's been gone since Thursday.
It's Sunday now.
He's just telling me.
Never called and asked, like, have you seen her?
Is she with you?
Have you talked to her?
Do you know where she is?
Like, never got that call.
So her husband telling her not to worry did not make her worry any less.
Shocker.
Yeah.
She said that right then she marched over to their house ready to confront Rick.
But as she's going over there, she like knocks on the door and it's Gretchen who answers.
Which like totally knocks her off her axis because she like she forgot about the kids in all of this.
And she's not about to interrogate Gretchen's dad in front of her.
So she decides to like tone it down a little bit and just like talk to him.
Except the conversation did not make her feel any better.
So she says, like, tell me what happened.
Tell me how things went down.
And he goes, well, you know, she went out that night with some people that she worked with.
And apparently she was out until three o'clock when the bar closed and she never came home.
He told her that the lady she works with I assume he means Anita kept calling him and saying she wanted to talk to the cops.
Like, give me the cop that's involved.
And I'm guessing Anita wanted to tell someone what she knew about Bonnie's like real last movements.
But she still didn't want to tell Rick anything.
But by the way, there is no cop involved.
The sheriff's office has still not called them back.
A detective hasn't even been assigned to the case yet.
But that report the deputy took is just in like holiday weekend purgatory waiting for regular business hours to start.
Okay.
Which is like wild.
Yeah.
And like, I don't know, maybe fast track the missing person.
But so anyway, so he's telling Diane about Anita, like blowing him up.
And he made a comment.
He goes.
You know it's a holiday weekend and nobody's going to find her car or anything until after the holiday.
Every place will be closed till Monday.
So it's going to be a few days before anybody even finds her car or sees her, you know, somewhere like behind a doctor's office.
That feels like a weirdly specific example.
Diane says she just looked at him like, what the hell, man?
Like, what does that mean?
Yeah.
And then she said there was this other moment, when he was sitting in a chair, like looking down at his feet.
And all of a sudden he goes and she is too stupid to even know how to use an ATM card.
Like meaning Bonnie.
And she said her eyes just went wide and her mouth like dropped open.
Yeah.
And he looks up from his feet and sees the shock in her face.
Like, what are you saying about your missing wife right now?
And without her actually saying that out loud, he goes oh well, I mean, you know, she's just never used one before.
So she ends up leaving the house not feeling any better than when she got there, but also unsure what to do about her growing suspicions.
So that's Sunday night.
Monday is when Bonnie's case finally gets assigned to a detective.
And that person gives Rick a call to see if Bonnie has come back yet.
I'm glad that's the first course of action, I guess.
She hasn't.
And Rick tells them he hasn't found anyone who has talked to her, seen her.
And so this is when the detective starts making more calls.
Making more calls like, do they not go to the house and talk to Rick or the kids?
Maybe like poke around a little bit?
No.
And this is really frustrating for those looking back on the case, because there's a thousand little things that have been speculated like in all these years since Bonnie went missing.
Stuff.
That would probably be a whole lot more clear or definitive if the early days of this case would have been handled differently.
Right.
But it seems like day one after being assigned the case, the Marion County detective is just making calls, getting statements from the people who were last with Bonnie, like Anita, who tells them how upset Bonnie was when she showed up.
And she tells them the full story that she didn't tell Rick.
That John was there with them and Bonnie and John had been having an affair for a couple of months.
She definitely did not think that Rick knew.
And she says that she definitely didn't say anything to him when he called her looking for Bonnie.
Right.
And so she's admitting to investigators that she lied to Rick, like she didn't want to tell him anything that would throw Bonnie under the bus.
She said she didn't even tell him where else they went that night.
She just told him that she and Bonnie left the party at 3 a.m.
But the truth she tells investigators is that when she left at around 2 230 am, Bonnie was still with John.
But then she also tells him, listen, like I called John.
John has no clue where she is, so she's not with him.
Which, as you can imagine, when the detective hears this, they want to talk to John directly.
And he confirms what Anita said, that she left before he and Bonnie did.
And he says that him and Bonnie stayed inside till around 3.30 a.m.
And then after that they were like chatting, kissing next to their cars in the parking lot for like an hour.
He says
And he says Bonnie mentioned to him this big argument that she had with Rick earlier that night and that Rick told Bonnie he would fight a divorce.
And he said they were also just generally talking about other things.
Like she said she was going to take her 10-year-old daughter to the movies later that day.
So that means as of like 4 in the morning, she's still planning on being home that day.
Yeah.
And John says that after they were done talking, so this would be around like 445 in the morning him and Bonnie get into their own cars to each head to their own respective homes.
Now, they didn't live near one another, but they did both need to travel west to get to their homes.
Mm-hmm.
So he says Bonnie was following his car for part of the drive.
And as they turn south out of the timeout lounge parking lot, they would have been driving down Allisonville Road to 62nd Street.
Like this is all very familiar to us.
We're like in this area all the time.
But they turn onto 62nd Street heading west.
And then at Compton Street, that's when John needs to turn off to get to his house.
So at the light, he went into the left turn lane.
Bonnie pulled up next to him.
He says he waved to her as he turned, and then Bonnie continued straight towards her house, which would have been like another 20 minutes away.
But that, he says, is the last time he saw her.
Now, I assume they talked to other people as well who were there that night.
But how long it took to make contact with people and when exactly those conversations happened is a little TBD.
I just know that it's not until August 6th, a full month after Bonnie went missing, that investigators actually talked to Rick in person for a recorded interview that we actually got a transcript of.
Our records request from the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department was... Can I guess?
Oh, yeah.
Denied.
Denied.
Always.
But Bonnie's son, Josh, actually had copies of this transcript and shared them with us.
We informed IMPD that we would be using this in our episode and asked if we could have the recordings of this to at least, if not play, so you could hear him directly.
Match tone and inflection.
Because I don't want the vibe of it.
I don't want to misrepresent anything said by Richard Schultz, aka whoever calls Rick.
I know I've been calling him Rick.
Yeah.
His name's Richard.
But again, they denied that request.
So these sections of the transcript are going to be read by voice actors and it may not reflect the exact tone.
What is your name, sir?
Richard E. Schultz.
What is your age?
46.
And do you know why you're down here this morning?
Uh, questioning relating to the disappearance of my wife.
All right, sir.
When was the last time you saw Mrs. Schultz?
At approximately 8.30 p.m.
Friday or Thursday, July 3rd.
Okay.
And would you tell us, was there any discussions on July 3rd, that evening or prior to her leaving?
Yes, there was.
And what were those discussions?
We had discussed, as we had previously, some situations in regards to divorce.
Now, when you say situations, that's a general term.
I need you to be specific financial aspects, i believe would be the best way to put about a divorce.
All right sir, how we could.
Her desire was to stay in the house with the kids and stay where fairly, in the school systems, and we were happy with the school systems.
And uh, what we could do to meet that wish, as well as provide some finances for me to set up a separate apartment or whatever.
If it came to that, Did she in fact ask you to move out of the house at a future date, on July 3rd 1997, prior to leaving?
She did not ask me to move out.
Did you discuss previously with her about you moving out?
We had discussed previously about a possibility of either one of us moving out.
And who brought that up?
I think it was It was just a joint part of the conversation as to what the possibilities were.
The discussion about her moving out was primarily it would It would be easier for me to obtain a mortgage to keep the house than it would be probably for her.
But the point I want to make about Friday's discussion was I was willing to procure the mortgage, allow her to live in the house with the kids.
Again, as long as we were able to come up with enough finances that I could set up a separate house.
I was willing to make the payments so she could stay in the house with the kids.
And I would move out as my indication of some willingness to compromise on these issues so we could discuss intermediate steps to divorce rather than going to that final step right away.
Were you surprised when she talked to you about divorce?
Very.
And when was the first time she brought up divorce?
I'd say in the end of May, sometime during the month of May, a couple of months prior to the beginning of July, in that time frame,
What was her reason for wanting a divorce?
Lack of sexual activity on my part.
That was the sole reason?
And her fear of ending up being alone.
And she defined alone as the fact that we had nothing in common.
How did you take that?
My reaction was, you know, we had the same thing in common as most married people do.
I mean we had children.
Our lives revolved around the children sporting activities, school activities.
I mean, Bonnie was in booster clubs for Josh's sports activities.
She was in the PTA for Gretchen.
She was a member of the altar church.
I had been the treasurer of the church.
I've been a coach for Little League.
I mean, our lives just revolved around the kids.
So I mean to say we had nothing in common I thought was a gross overstatement.
Did it anger you?
It bewildered me.
I don't think it angered me.
In the whole month or two that lead up to the time of her leaving.
I was trying to find out, you know what, what caused her to come to these types of conclusions, or whatever.
I mean, it was what did she say was thrown out in a very matter of fact type of situation rather than again, apparent to me building up over time.
And she just said, you know, she was unhappy with some of the things that were going on in her life.
She felt underappreciated at times by me and the kids.
And again, it was just a half a dozen or so conversations over that period of time, trying to find out what the source of all this was.
It hit me out of the blue.
And the period of time would be from somewhere in May to the beginning of July when she left.
But I don't remember the specific date that she brought it up or whatever.
It strikes me as...
It struck me as a very short period of time, from the time that she started to discuss the voice her displeasure to you know sometime in the round of the first or middle of June saying well, I just think that we to just get a divorce.
There are no answers.
Well, you know, in my own opinion, there are intermediate steps to take before we do that.
I think that we could, for counseling, try and find out if we can reconcile before we go to divorce.
And what did she say to that?
She didn't.
She didn't say very much.
She's just hung up on the divorce situation.
And again I tried to appease her to a certain degree by saying that you know, I think that there's a way we can financially handle.
We wouldn't.
No matter which direction we went, we wouldn't lose the house and the kids living where they were or whatever, which I was hoping was a peace offering or whatever you want to call it, to try to get her to discuss or consider of the intermediate steps before the before a divorce.
Now, I want to just jump in really quick and compare this to what we actually know.
The timing makes sense.
So we know that the fight they had in front of her family was around Easter, the one where she's saying he doesn't do things that other husbands do for their wives.
Everyone's sitting awkwardly watching it happen.
So the idea that, like since May, she has been saying she feels unappreciated by her family, like that track.
That makes sense.
Easter's spring.
Yeah.
May's right after.
And Rick says that he notices this strong shift a couple of months ago.
So that lines up with what Anita has told police that like she's been seeing John for like that amount of time.
And Rick is super honest about Bonnie having issues with a lack of intimacy on his part, which to me would be an easy thing to lie about.
But he doesn't.
Yeah.
The thing that is a little TBD in this is his response to her wanting a divorce.
And it feels so nuanced to me.
So he's saying that like he just wants to figure it out.
Like, let's take some steps first before we just like jump straight to divorce, which feels reasonable.
But you have Anita saying that Bonnie is super upset that night and Rick would not give her the divorce, which makes you want to say like oh, he's lying.
But I will say that when police talked to their 10-year-old daughter, who was home that night, Gretchen...
She said she was watching them outside through the window as they were like on the porch having this conversation.
She says it's like 15, 20 minutes long.
And she could tell that her mom was like a little upset just by the way she was talking.
It was an intense conversation.
Yeah, but she didn't necessarily even describe it as an argument.
Like mom seemed upset, which like I don't think contradicts anything that Rick is saying.
Right.
So let's just jump back into the interview.
Has Mrs. Schultz ever left like this before?
Never.
Has she ever threatened to leave before?
No.
Have you ever been physically violent towards her?
Have you ever struck her, pushed her, shoved her, held her tight against her will, or anything at all?
No.
Never?
Ever?
Never.
When she asked you for a divorce?
Did you think, at any time during those three-month time period and I know that's just a ballpark figure on the time frame think that there was another person in her life, another male?
I did not.
When she told you that she was disappointed in the lack of sexual activity, did you then think there possibly may be another male?
I would.
I probably.
I probably thought there was a possibility, but I just...
I still don't think so.
I mean, it's possible.
Sure.
Well, I need... I'm trying to find out what you're thinking.
Did you consider another male?
No.
At all?
No.
During that whole three-month time period, you never considered that Bonnie may be having an affair?
I did not.
Do you know any of her co... or did you know any of her co-workers prior to her disappearance?
No.
Okay, so you know of no co-workers' address or phone numbers prior to her disappearance?
I did not.
Again, this all tracks with what other people know.
The way that Bonnie explained things to Diane on their walk.
It did not seem like Rick knew there was another man.
And Anita and John are very clear and say that Rick did not know about the affair.
I mean even up until the point of Saturday, when Rick is calling Anita looking for Bonnie, he's not asking about another man.
Right.
And Anita isn't offering that up.
She is still covering for Bonnie.
Right.
He's just asking specifically like about Bonnie, not even like who they were.
Where they were.
Just where they were.
Just where they were.
When was the last time you saw her?
Which is what makes this next part of the interview stand out to detectives.
What time does Bonnie leave?
July 3rd, 1997.
8.30, maybe 8.40 p.m.
Okay.
Do you know where she's going?
Specifically?
No.
She told me she was going to a party, a house party with Anita.
And I asked her if Anita was there, and she said she thought she had gone to work.
I asked her if she knew where Bonnie was, and she said she didn't know.
And then after talking, I believe it was after talking to her, Felix had returned my beep.
I had beeped him and talked to him about the situation.
He had a manager from Regis call me later that evening, like, say, in the 7 o'clock area.
On Saturday?
On Saturday from the job that Bonnie was supposed to be at.
He indicated she was not there.
He indicated that Anita was.
I asked him to have Anita call me.
He said that he would do that.
She called a half an hour, 45 minutes later.
I asked her if she knew where Bonnie was.
She said no.
She said they had left a timeout lounge the night before around three.
And I need you to speak up.
You got quiet on me.
Oh, I'm sorry.
I keep forgetting the name of the place.
The timeout lounge name just gets me every time I bring it up.
Here.
This is the main reason I want to see this recorded interview so badly, because this is the moment detectives still point to 28 years later, the moment they believe Rick knows he messed up.
Sergeant Kistner with IMPD has viewed that tape and he says that you can read the words on the page, but what you cannot see is Rick's body language.
He says meaning Kistner.
Kistner says that Anita is very clear that she never told Rick where she and Bonnie had been when he called on Saturday.
According to her, all she said was that they headed home around 3 a.m.
Full stop.
So how would Rick know about the timeout lounge?
Kistner says that he and the current lead detective agree that.
You can see it in his demeanor that he realized he stepped in it.
And if Anita never told him where they were or anything more, then this next part really doesn't make sense.
So Anita told you that they had left the timeout lounge around 3 o'clock in the morning?
That's correct.
Okay, left about 3 o'clock in the morning?
Yes.
So this was maybe around 8 on Saturday evening.
I got in the car.
I drove to the Time Out Lounge.
I went across 86th Street.
So you knew where the Time Out Lounge was?
I looked it up in the phone book.
Okay.
Or I believe, or Anita may have told me.
I don't remember how I found out where it was.
I drove over there going east on 86th Street to Allisonville.
I found the place came back through Broad Ripple on 62nd Street around 830 quarter till 9 on Saturday night.
It's very busy.
There are lots of people on the street and lots of cars, and I did not see anything.
Sunday morning at 5 o'clock, Josh and I got up and went to try to retrace those same steps.
How do you know to go through Broad Ripple?
You went to 86 to Allisonville Road, and you found the Time Out Lounge.
Why would you not go back the same way that you went?
Well, I didn't see anything on the way over.
Why?
I mean, why go back the same way?
I was trying to figure out as many possible ways that she would come home.
Did you go 465?
No, I did not.
But you went to 86.3 to go to 62nd on the way back through Broad Ripple?
Yeah.
Why?
I mean, if you're looking for how she would go home, I would think that you would cover all of your bases.
Well, why didn't you go 465?
Because at that point in time, the police report had been filed, and I assumed that it would be.
If the car would have been seen along 465.
It's much more heavily traveled than some of these other areas.
So you go out 86, but you come back 62nd.
What's the interest coming back on 62nd?
It's just a different possible route.
I was going to try as many as possible.
Are those the only two that you tried that evening?
Yes.
Okay.
And, as I indicated, we got up early Sunday morning, my son and I, and we went.
Anita told me, I believe, on I don't remember when It was the first phone call or the second one that she had seen her heading west on 62nd Street.
Anita told you that she saw Mrs. Schultz?
When you say her?
Yes.
Heading west on 62nd Street?
From the timeout lounge.
At what time?
At 3 or 3.30 when they left the bar.
Anita said she saw her?
Yes.
Your wife?
Did Anita say anybody else was with them?
She did not.
She said they were there alone.
I get why investigators are suspicious.
Yes, we know from John that Bonnie took 62nd Street home and that's the last place he saw her as they waved goodbye.
But how would Rick know that?
I mean, he's saying he's checking all the routes, right?
Sure.
But then he doesn't?
Like 62nd Street is the one that he calls out specifically to investigators.
And later in the interview he explains.
Well, you know like she was most familiar with this route because of like X, Y and Z reasons, which all the reasons were valid.
And in 1997, this is a time before Google Maps.
So like I kind of get that gut instinct off the bat.
Yeah.
But you've been down 62nd Street before.
A million times.
It turns into Broad Ripple Avenue which has, like this, strip of restaurants and bars where like, all the college kids go, or like at least used to.
I don't know what's cool these days.
And it is very busy on a weekend.
For sure.
So he says his reason for not checking 465, which is one of our major highways, is that like, oh well, if there was an accident then police would have seen that.
But like, if that's your reasoning, I'm pretty sure the same can be said for that area.
Yeah.
And like, sure, that busy road doesn't stretch all the way to her house.
Like, check the whole route.
Fine, whatever.
But check more.
Yeah.
So why doesn't he?
Like the feeling everyone says they get is that it's like he knew what route she took home.
And if he knew, then there are only a couple of options.
One, Anita misremembered and she actually did tell him or let it slip and he had more to go off of.
Or two, and the theory that police seem to be hinting at, is that Rick followed Bonnie that night.
And it wasn't just the fact that he knew her route home that made them think that.
It's something that John ends up telling them later on.
Sergeant Kistner says that in subsequent conversations with John he ends up telling investigators like hey, you know, looking back on it, I had this gut feeling that somebody was watching us that night before we left in the parking lot at the timeout lounge.
And then he tells him about another instance prior to that in which they were leaving the lounge and he saw a car pull out behind Bonnie and it was actually following her.
But he got stopped at the light, so he wasn't able to follow it or confirm his suspicions.
And obviously that time she was fine, so he didn't really think anything of it until now, of course.
But now, now as in like not the first time they talk to him.
This is after when I'm sure everyone is kind of side-eyeing, getting suspicious of Rick.
Correct.
And, to be clear, there is nothing detectives have told us that gives any insinuation that it's Rick specifically, he felt was the one watching.
Right.
Just like just someone feeling watched.
Yeah.
And I actually have a bit of a hard time believing that it was Rick who followed her before.
If someone was in fact following her, because that would mean that he would have been behind her, like got home after her or at least right at the same time as her.
And in all the conversations she had with friends and coworkers, she never said that Rick had followed her.
And she still thought he didn't know about John.
So like it feels like if John was picking up on that vibe, he would have.
I think it's like if someone had followed her before, if someone was following her and it was the same person both times.
I just don't.
She would have.
She would have known it was her husband.
She would have known that he knew about the affair and I feel like other people would have heard about that.
Anyways, I don't know how much stock you can put in a feeling in hindsight.
What investigators feel like they can put stock in is a polygraph.
And both John and Rick readily agree to them.
One passes, one fails.
What's your guess?
I mean, I'm assuming that John passes and Rick fails.
Yes. you are correct, which only bolsters their suspicions.
And did the police talk to the kids at any point?
Like, Gretchen, we know, was home that night.
She's 10.
Right, Josh was at a sleepover, but yeah, she was home the whole time.
Yeah, she remembers the conversation.
That was, like, at least tense.
But what next?
Like, was dad there?
Like, does she remember him leaving?
This should be easy to figure out.
Yeah, she's, like, old enough to, like, be aware, right?
Yeah.
And yes, they do talk to the kids, but I think they kind of do it in this like a little bit like shady boots way.
Like, don't love.
So in the first interview that they have, or the first recorded interview they have with Rick, they ask him if they can interview the kids.
And he's like, yes, of course.
They ask if they can talk to them alone.
And at first he's like, yes.
But then eventually he says, you know, you can talk to Josh alone.
But like, I want to be there when you talk to Gretchen.
Which like she's only 10.
Her mom is missing.
And like he's six.
Josh is 16.
Josh is like 15.
Yeah.
So like I refuse to fault him for wanting to be there for his 10 year old who whose mom is missing.
For sure.
Whatever.
But they just kind of go behind his back.
Oh.
Like one day they show up at the house at a time when Rick isn't home and they talk to the kids without him there.
Is that even legal?
Oh.
Right.
OK, so I was like, um, they're minors.
And he explicitly said he wanted to be there when you talk to Gretchen.
Like, this feels pretty black and white to me.
And so like I was so like twisted up about this that we even asked the sergeant Sergeant Kistner about this.
Now, he wasn't the one who did this and went to the house in 97, obviously.
Wait, but like now.
Yeah.
I'm like, are we good with this?
And he said it wasn't a formal interview with the kids, like it wasn't recorded or anything.
So he said detectives felt like Rick was being controlling.
So this was their attempt to try and see if the kids might mention something offhand, like if their dad wasn't over them, which like
Still didn't give me my answer.
So I like he's saying it's gray.
Well, he was just saying, like, I understand why they did it.
So then I went to our lawyer, Crystal, and I'm like, no, but like on paper, is this legal?
And she said it actually is.
It is legal for police to talk to minors without parental consent in Indiana.
And, just like Sergeant Kistner said, Crystal said that if the parent is a suspect, police would have an interest to do this.
They'd have a reason to do it.
Yeah, to do it outside of their presence to avoid any kind of like coaching or intimidation.
So all of that to say, they do end up talking to the kids solo.
Now, Josh can't tell them much because he wasn't home that night.
And Gretchen tells them a lot of the same stuff her dad and Bonnie's friends said about what her mom was last wearing, which was a light tan purse sandals, navy pants, a striped like light and dark blue type shirt, a herringbone necklace, wedding ring gold, watch.
And Gretchen remembers something else that her mom was wearing, too.
That number one mom necklace, the one that was like right in her face we talked about as her mom kissed her goodbye.
Right.
And then there's this moment where I have to imagine the energy in the room shifts for detectives.
Sergeant Kistner wasn't there.
He just read about this.
So he doesn't know exactly how it unfolded.
But apparently at some point, while they're there, Gretchen goes up to her mom and dad's bedroom and she comes downstairs and she presents them the number one mom necklace.
And she tells the detectives that it was in a different spot than where her mom normally keeps it.
That just gave me like the most full body chills.
I know.
I mean, is this Gretchen's way of like telling them something, like hinting at something?
I don't know what this is.
But we did get confirmation from the police that this is the item that has been referenced online and in reporting but never actually named until now.
They actually approved us releasing this information.
Like this is the item everyone talks about that she supposedly like I guess they said the kid said she was never without it.
I don't know what that means, but it was this necklace.
Now, we really wanted to speak with Gretchen ourselves for this reporting, but she wasn't up for it.
Because in my mind, I'm like, you know, it's been so many years since this happened.
What if Bonnie wasn't wearing the necklace that night?
Like, what if we're misinterpreting old reports?
Like, this either means everything or we are missing a piece and this actually means nothing.
Like, what if her mom took it off real quick?
Like I was talking to our director of reporting and she was like, oh yeah, there's like plenty of things I have where I'm like, oh my God, I love this.
I'm never going to take it off.
I have a very specific pair of earrings that May insisted she get for my birthday.
And I have worn them exactly in front of her.
Yeah, she's seen me wear them.
Our other producer miela, said that her mom has a box of stuff.
It's literally like a box of this stuff that like kids make and you're like this is, or like give you because they love it and they like think you love it too.
I know i can imagine as a mom like literally making sure it dangles and hits josie in the face so she like knows i'm wearing it, you know what i mean and then like just drop it somewhere the place i don't normally put it because i'm about to head out the door.
Well Well, and with that in mind, like did anybody see her wearing it when she went out that night?
Again, I can picture this necklace.
This is a distinct kind of necklace in the 90s.
So this is what kills me.
Apparently, her shirt had a really high neckline, so nobody remembers seeing any necklaces.
I mean, people talk about her wearing that herringbone necklace, so that might have been outside.
But no one mentions this one.
Well yeah, and since her like chest isn't exposed, you can't prove that she wasn't wearing it like underneath this like high-neck shirt.
Now, even though we couldn't talk to Gretchen, we did talk to Bonnie's son Josh for this episode.
We asked him about this necklace, and...
You know, he wasn't there when she left the house, obviously, so he couldn't speak to that.
But I didn't know if maybe he remembered this moment when Gretchen like, gives them this, or if he and Gretchen ever talked about this after.
But like, whatever this big, significant moment was to detectives, was not that for him, because he says he does not remember it.
What about any other family members?
Did anybody else bring this up?
I mean, you said she had sisters, like no one?
No, we didn't get to speak to her sisters in our reporting.
Like they did help verify some facts for us, but they didn't want to have like long conversations about this.
Like it's still just too painful.
But we did have a really long conversation with Bonnie's brother.
So that's Mike.
And, you know, it's interesting.
Like I think it's so easy for us as reporters crime junkies listening to be like oh, if this was me in a situation like I would bulldoze my way through people until I got the answers I needed.
Oftentimes, that is not what real life looks like.
In the very early days, like her siblings weren't even really in contact with police.
They were kind of getting what little update they could from Rick in the first like week or so.
So he's actually the one who does eventually call them and tell them that Bonnie's missing.
But kind of like he called Diane a little bit later, he did the same with them.
He calls them on the 6th.
And at the time, they're like, well, do we need to come down?
Do we need to look?
What do you need from us?
Yeah.
He's like, no, no, no.
Don't come search.
I'm sure she's going to be back.
And at that time, they were really not suspicious of him at all.
But after like a week of Bonnie being gone, they're finally, like you know what, like we're coming down from Wisconsin to help look for her.
And that was the following Friday.
So Mike and his sisters drive through the night.
They get to Rick's place at like 530 in the morning and ring the doorbell.
They're obviously there with, like, bags and stuff, right?
Like they don't know how long they're going to be there, but the hope is that they're going to stay till they find their sister.
But Mike says that when Rick opens the door, his first words are something like oh, you're staying the night.
Yeah Rick, we're staying the night and the night after that, and the night after that and the night until Bonnie comes home.
It was just odd.
But, like...
Whatever.
They brushed it off.
Everyone is in a weird place right now.
And for the next two days, everyone just divides and conquers.
Mike and Rick go in one car looking for Bonnie.
Josh and another uncle go in another car.
And they just drive and drive all day looking for her or the car.
And that goes on until eventually.
Like the family members from Wisconsin, they have to go home because no cars found.
There's no crime scene.
And they felt like there was nothing else they could do.
And they all had jobs and families that they had to go back to.
Like time does not stop when you have a missing family member.
I tell people this all the time.
And still, even in that moment, they go home not thinking Rick did anything.
So he's out there.
He's looking for his wife and the kids are standing beside him.
Had Bonnie's family always had a pretty good relationship with Rick?
Like families could be different and blending them could be interesting.
Yeah, I mean, he's been in their family for like 26 years now.
So like, and listen, Rick for sure had his quirks or like kind of just like one big quirk, really.
And I heard this from several people that we talked to.
Rick did not like to lose.
Racquetball, cards, whatever.
He was a very sore loser.
Like his whole mood would shift if he didn't win.
And like in a way where it's not just like... It affects everybody.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Knowing that about him, I wonder if he viewed losing his marriage in the same way.
Like, divorce would be him not winning at marriage.
Or him, like, losing her to someone.
I mean, he says he didn't know about the affair.
But anyway, so that's the relationship.
It was a fine relationship.
There was just this one weird thing about him.
They just don't play games with Reg.
Pretty much.
It was already to the point where they're like, let's do anything else.
Yeah.
So anyways, they go back to Wisconsin and eventually detectives do start reaching out to interview them.
And the first was Detective Michael Kelly.
And it seems like he might really be the first one to introduce them to the idea that Rick might have something to do with this.
And Bonnie's brother Mike, says that Detective Kelly tells them about the whole number one mom necklace, which was odd.
And detectives tell them that they even collected this necklace, not to like process it as evidence.
They actually had a psychic look at it, but eventually Rick wanted it back or something.
Wait, did the psychic see anything?
Oh, nothing that they think is important.
Whatever psychic they took it to, they felt like the necklace had been broken.
Like that's all really that came of it.
But it definitely wasn't broken when they had it.
And then they didn't do any kind of exam to try and track down and see if it was like repaired or anything.
Like I I think they kind of just like wrote it off.
But again, Rick like wants it back.
So they eventually give it back to Rick.
But here's the interesting thing that Detective Kelly says.
He says that when he meets up with Rick to give it back, Rick says something to him.
And learning what he said flips the switch for Bonnie's brother, Mike.
According to him, Detective Kelly said that when he met Rick to give him this necklace...
He had to meet him out in public.
He hands it back to him.
And before Detective Kelly gave it back, like right before, Rick asked him if he was wearing a wire.
Detective Kelly told him no.
And so he hands the necklace back.
And then Rick told him that he will never figure this out.
That is the thing that finally changed Mike's mind about what happened to his sister.
And he's super transparent.
He's like, look, I'm taking detective's word for it.
I can't prove that that even happened.
But he's like, why would a detective lie to me about this?
And from that moment on, it's been different.
And that permeates through Bonnie's side of the family, making them view everything in this new light.
Like, why did he wait days to call?
Why didn't he want them to help come look right then that first weekend?
Why would he be surprised that they showed up with bags when they came?
And then his sister Sue, Bonnie's sister Sue, remembers something now that's chilling to her.
She says, when they first showed up at Rick's house, Rick had on different glasses than like he normally would wear.
And she's like, oh, like new glasses, Rick?
And he says, no, these are my old ones.
My other ones broke.
And she also noticed that there was a scratch on the side of his face, like next to his eye where, like the arm of the glasses would connect to the rims.
But before you say anything, let me say two things first.
To circle all the way back to your original question did the family ever grill Gretchen about the necklace?
No.
One of Bonnie's sisters really tried to keep a relationship with the kids, which is hard to do if you're coming in hot.
And everyone else just thought that they were really taking their dad's side and there became this like huge rift in the family.
Like they didn't want to make things harder on the kids.
And they were kids.
Like they're not going to grill them when they're already dealing with the trauma of their mom being missing, especially when the grilling would have been about their dad.
And then number two, to hop back to the glasses and the possible cut, I'll ask this question again.
Is it everything or is it nothing?
Because we asked the current detective about this.
I'm sorry, like, was there a cut on his face and broken glasses?
Seems notable.
Feels like we should be talking about this.
And the current detectives say there is zero mention in the responding deputy's note about a cut on Richard's face.
And by responding deputy you mean from the department who took the weekend off before assigning a detective and then didn't actually talk to Rick in person for like a month.
Or didn't do the recorded interview for a month.
But yeah, and this is what I mean, about how the lack of an investigation in this case, I think, hinders both ways.
If he did have that cut, they missed their chance to take photos and to add that as evidence.
If there wasn't a cut, and this is just bad memories or whatever, or it happened after Bonnie went missing.
There's also no proof of that.
Yeah, and Rick can never prove that he didn't have a cut because no one did anything, but now he's paying for it by being under this cloud of suspicion.
Yeah, but I mean...
I feel like maybe he should be under a cloud of suspicion.
Yes, but only if the investigation was thorough.
And this is the drumbeat that I heard so loud and clear from Bonnie and Rick's son, Josh.
He said he is willing to accept that his dad did something if they can just show him that his dad did something.
He's like, you don't think I want to know if my dad murdered my mom?
Of course I want to know.
But what's not fair to do is like a half-ass investigation and then point the finger at the only parent they have left, make them wonder if the man they live with and love is a killer.
You know, really mess with their heads but not be able to give them any specifics.
Because there are none.
Where did this happen?
When did this happen?
How did this happen?
The idea that they can put forward this very vague theory that just points to their dad, because they say he had motive, but also acknowledge that there are all these holes and look past all those holes because the holes were put there by them.
By them and the lack of investigation.
And yet not give their dad any breaks.
That is what is like bullshit to them.
So he's like look, I'm willing to also accept that he looks the most guilty out of everyone if you dug in harder and actually looked at everyone.
But they didn't even do that.
And that's what we tried to do.
And I do think there is an entirely different side to this story that hasn't been told.
So if you're feeling sure about yourself now, Hang on, because I have an entire part two of Bonnie's story that is full of surprises, contradictions and new theories about what could have happened to Bonnie Lee Schultz that 4th of July morning back in 1997.
Now, anyone who's part of the Crime Junkie fan club doesn't have to hang on.
You can go listen to that episode right now in our Crime Junkie app ad-free.
And for everyone else, you will get part two next Monday.
We'll see you then.
You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, CrimeJunkie.com.
And don't forget, if you want part two of Bonnie's story right now, you can join the fan club.
The fan club has all of our episodes ad-free and tons of bonus episodes.
Just go to our website, CrimeJunkie.com to join.
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We'll be back next week with part two of Bonnie's story.
Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production.
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