My name's Hugh. I'm a co -host on The Imperfects.
I'm the son of Sri Lankan and English immigrants and I call Australia home.
We at The Imperfects acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded and we extend our respects to the elders past and present.
I've spent much of the last decade travelling around this country sharing stories.
In doing so, I acknowledge and pay homage to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people's rich history of storytelling.
I also acknowledge that whenever I talk about or practice resilience there is no greater example than the one set by the world's oldest living culture.
We're all imperfect and on this podcast I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.
I went from a non -verbal autistic kid who was off in his own world all the time to now someone with many hats.
You may not know how you're going to get to that goal you want to achieve but you'll find your way and you'll get there in the end like I did.
I'm Hugh van Karlenberg from The Resilience Project.
And I'm Ryan Shelton from My Mum.
And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.
And this is The Imperfects.
Well this is actually the last episode pretty much for the year.
Pretty much. And we are chatting with Michael Theo.
Well, I'll say there's many faces in Love on the Spectrum but he is definitely one of the main characters in Love on the Spectrum.
He's also one of the stars of the OBC show Austin.
And it was such a privilege to chat to this incredible young man.
But as you said, it's only nearly the last step because there is one special one next week that maybe we should get, yep.
Oh, That's awesome.
Merry Christmas. That cryptic glue.
So beautiful. What a segue here into what will be coming next week, which is a traditional Christmas episode.
For those who've listened for the past couple of years.
We've had incredible guests.
we've had Santa Claus in the vulnerability house, thanks to Glenn Robbins.
We've had Mrs. Claus, who we got in touch with through Ursula Carlson.
And this year, a real treat next week, we've got the forgotten son, often forgotten son, sadly, of Mr.
and Mrs. Claus, little boy Christmas.
And a huge thank you to comedian Guy Montgomery for putting us in touch with LBC.
Yeah, it actually makes me think about outside, I'll see my daughter's window is the chimney, and we have like a very thin steel cylinder, with any tiny gaps of smoke to get out.
A flute, thank you.
And we were standing in the window the other day looking out the window talking about the trees.
And she said, how, hang on, how's Father Christmas going to get down the chimney?
And I think I'm really good on my feet, like thinking quickly my feet.
I've never started, I'm doing more in my entire life.
I'm just like, I mean, oh, yeah, that well, that's such a good question.
It's actually, it's fine.
And maybe somebody there can tell me, because I'm sure just in case your kid's listening, but your parents might know the answers.
But I was like, I think he's one of those people I'd like a snake, he can make himself very flat, and just slide into little gaps like that.
And she goes, what?
All right. Yeah. That's the magic of Christmas.
It is. Yeah, it is.
That could be, it's a, yeah, I think that's what it is.
Some things can't be explained, and that's okay.
But then I feel like she was staring at the, she was just staring at the chimney for ages.
Because from her bed, you can see it.
And I feel like she's like, I don't want to see that.
That's weird. Wait, you mean when he actually arrives.
I think she's always felt like it's exciting.
She's running to the chimney.
So she's going to see it.
Yeah. She's like, Oh, that's, I don't want to say that.
Yeah, that's disgusting.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, so there's that.
So that's exciting.
I'll share a photo of our chimney.
I don't know, I don't know what other people would have thought of.
Can't wait to see a metal flute.
It's pretty standard.
Well, it's at the end of the year when the socials get a little tired.
We know what around chimney looks like.
Yeah. So make sure you follow us and like and subscribe to our socials.
We're sending out some pretty hot shit this year.
I should put that behind the payroll.
I think it's pretty good stuff.
It is good. She should do a boomerang of it too.
Boomerang video of the chimney.
And just to be clear, it's very normal, boring chimney, isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah. Great. And before we get to Michael, uh, another exciting thing that we want to tell everyone about, uh, over summer.
So we're going to have a few weeks off after Christmas, as we do every year, but we are introducing a brand new curriculum to the imperfect.
Yeah. This year. It's very exciting because you know, Alice Cooper famously sung schools out for summer.
Of course I do. We're flipping it schools in for summer.
Yeah. Yeah, it's cool.
Yeah, which is kind of works, but that's not exciting to learn.
No, this is though.
This is a cool school.
It's like a cool fun school where you learn stuff, but it's not annoying or boring.
Can you wear your cap backwards?
Yep. You can. You can.
So this is the academy of imperfection is putting on a very special, uh, summer program.
That's cool. That's real cool.
I hope it's got a cool theme.
It's, it's educational.
Leave a gap in the edit and I'll replace that with something better.
I like it. Educational.
Yeah, that's what it is.
So this is exactly what some of us call this.
Our summer school. Educational is as cool as the word.
Educational. So yeah, we're releasing three, uh, academy of imperfections over some brand new episodes, uh, with three incredible people.
Um, so that's something to look forward to.
Yeah. But Michael Theo, what a legend.
And we were so excited to have him in here.
And Hugh, you pulled the most incredible move to like make him feel comfortable early.
This was, this was masterful.
Well, the day before I had a conversation on the phone and it was, it was right up there.
It was one of my favorite pre -interview chats.
And I, I asked him, was there anything we could get you that you might like to, you know, at the start or while the interview is going something we could get you, that would be really nice.
And for those of you who remember what yowies are, those it's chocolate with toys in them.
Yeah, yeah. And understandably, um, he was a little bit stressed me first.
It's a stressful thing to come into an interview a little bit stressed.
And just before we start the interview, we, we produced some yowies for him.
And my gosh, did his face light up?
Oh, he was pumped. Yeah.
Oh, it was lovely. I mean, throughout this interview, we talk about his experience with autism, but there's a whole lot of stuff in there around his, um, I mean, he's living his dream.
And for an autistic person who had struggles throughout childhood and throughout school, um, it's really beautiful to listen to someone talk about how they've arrived at a place where they are just so unbelievably happy.
Uh, we know him from his quest to find love and love on the spectrum.
Uh, but hearing his journey, how he's had to navigate to get to where he's got, it's a really important thing for us to all listen to, because I think we, um, I think we need to put ourselves in the shoes of others in general, but I think especially neurodivergent people to understand how hard it can be
just to get by every single day.
So that'll be a good thing to come back after the chat and talk more about that.
So yeah, this is, uh, the man himself, Michael Theo.
Welcome to the imperfects.
Michael Theo. Thank you Hughes.
Where did you get the nickname Mr.
A plus from? Did you give that to yourself?
Actually, no. My mother came up with it.
It's because in the first season of love on the spectrum, I started saying that an A plus partner looks like me and then my mother started calling me Mr.
A plus and it just, it just stuck ever since.
I haven't had the chance to watch the TV show yet, but I've seen many clips and I'm so excited to start watching Austin.
And the thing that makes me want to watch it is how incredible you seem in that the performances that I've seen you do.
Uh, just they're funny, heartwarming, beautiful.
You are an incredible actor.
Thanks. I appreciate it.
Have you always wanted to be an actor?
Yep. Ever since I was a little kid.
What made you want to be an actor?
I believe my love of acting stemmed from television shows and especially animation.
And because of that, I was also often living in my own wall when I was under the age of 10.
And I was also nonverbal at the time I was taken to speech therapy, but I wasn't interested at the time.
So what really got me to start talking was my love of films and television shows, mostly animation, because the art of a voice acting in animation really appealed to me when I was a very little kid.
And I decided that's what I wanted to do when I grew older.
It doesn't surprise me to be, I mean, it does surprise me that someone who is nonverbal wants to be an actor, but now having done the speech therapy and like being influenced by films and television, you have such a great voice.
Thank you. Sometimes you meet people and you hear their voice and you're like, oh, you should be an actor or you should do animation or voice overs or, and then that your voice, you have one of those voices.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
I was also going to mention that it wasn't the speech therapy that helped me start talking.
It was the animated shows that I was watching because I repeat those lines and then repeat them in reality.
And because I saw the world as an animated world, that's why I was living in my own world, because I had a very unique perspective on the world.
And because my mother was helping me to express words in my own way instead of constantly repeating what I heard from a screen.
That's what eventually helped me break out of that shell.
But it did take quite a long time to get to where I am today because the speech therapy, I wasn't interested in it, but the animated films and television shows were the key to me becoming a verbal person.
Which shows did you like watching?
Oh, there was Thomas the Tank Engine, Looney Tunes, the Jetsons, the Flintstones.
I love those shows.
They're the best. And I was also watching some of those films done by Disney, Pixar and Dreamworks as well.
Did you like Aladdin?
Yep. Loved it. I love the song from it.
I can show you the world.
Nah, okay. I think that's the appropriate response.
If this was the X Factor, Michael has not swiveled his chair.
Or is that the voice?
Maybe that's the voice.
But I will admit on Aladdin, my favourite character is Iago.
Oh, which character is that?
That's the monkey. No, he's a parrot.
A parrot? A parrot.
Right, sorry. I find him very relatable.
Really? In what way?
He gets frustrated by a lot of things very easily.
Really? What's something...
Has anything frustrated you today?
Actually, no. Oh, that's good.
Well, hopefully we won't be the first.
I doubt it. Okay, that's good.
Maybe my singing was a bit frustrating.
No, it was just a little bit cringey.
Oh, great. Now, I think also there'll be people watching this on YouTube, maybe.
And they're probably wondering why there are small dinosaurs on the table.
Okay. Do you mind explaining?
Sure. These dinosaurs are small figures from Yowie chocolates.
My mother used to get these for me every week when I was a kid.
Yowie's was one of the things I actually contributed to my lifelong passion for animals.
Really? Yep, loved animals since I was a kid.
My top favourites would be lions and tigers.
In fact, I love all animals except spiders.
Yes. What is it about spiders that you don't like?
They have too many eyes and legs.
And I'm especially terrified of the large hairy ones like huntsmen, but they're harmless.
The more dangerous ones would be funnel webs, tarantulas, camel spiders, those Goliath bird eaters, and also in particular, Aragog from Harry Potter.
I don't know that one.
I haven't seen Harry Potter.
What's that? What's that one?
Aragog is a giant spider.
Okay, that sounds terrifying.
And he's hairy. Yep, he's terrifying.
Well, if you don't mind, Michael, and if any of these questions are uncomfortable, you don't have to answer them, of course.
But I'm really interested to know if you can remember what it feels like being a kid who is non -verbal.
Personally, I don't really remember how I felt as a non -verbal child because it was like well over 20 years ago, but my mother remembers that I was trying to get words out but I couldn't.
And she saw that I was frustrated by it.
I kind of remember it vaguely, but not that well.
And so my mother decided that we would use animation as the key to help me start talking.
So I started repeating these lines from shows and films, and I decided to use that as a way to get me to slowly start talking with my own words instead of repeating the words from a film or a show.
Because that's what parrots do, I guess.
My mother would always try to get me out of my own world and into the moment, the present.
And even though it did take quite a long time to get to that point, it was still worth it in the end.
And when I was in primary school, I had no idea how to socialise, because I wasn't interested.
And also because I had no idea how.
Because people on the spectrum don't really have the best social skills when they grow up.
But they can learn social skills as they age though.
Autism is basically a neurological disability that impacts social skills and the pace of the learning stage as a child.
And when you become an adult, that's not when the autism stops.
It's with you for life.
Because sure, parents can guide their kids in their childhood and teenage years, but they also need to prepare them for living with autism when they're adults as well.
Because it's something that can't be cured.
It's not a disease.
It's just something that you're born with.
Who you are. Yeah, it just becomes part of who you are.
Just like every neurotypical person is different.
I'm sure every autistic person is different.
And experiences autism differently.
How do you experience autism?
How does it present to you in life?
Well, I'll explain what I have.
I was actually diagnosed with aspergers.
I know the term is not used anymore, but that doesn't change the diagnosis.
I was diagnosed with it when I was like, around seven to eight years old.
And aspergers is a small branch of autism.
I just had difficulty with social skills, but also learning at the same pace as the other students in school.
Which is why I had a teacher's aid as well.
That helped me specifically.
But also my parents raised me to be as independent as the best way they could.
And I actually love the independence because I hate having to rely on people for things.
It feels awkward. And on top of that, I actually have high functioning aspergers, which means that I can still function normally like everybody else.
And I don't want or need special treatment.
I don't need it. I don't want it.
I don't even ask for it.
I just want to be treated the same as everybody else.
Because I still want to have my own property, you know, work, and find myself a wife to share my life with.
You have an independent life.
Exactly. What are your memories like of childhood?
Like at prom school, whether they had a happy memories or were they sad?
There were actually a lot of happy memories from when I was a kid.
But as a teenager, some of them weren't so great.
Because I didn't socialise a lot in primary school, I wasn't really entirely prepared for the social aspect of high school.
Because I still didn't know how to socialise with the other students.
And I was marginalised in high school as a result.
But it's not like I had no friends at all.
I eventually began to make more and more friends.
It took a long time, but I got there in the end.
Can you remember how you learnt to make friends?
My mother would also encourage me to work on my social skills.
And asking them questions about what they like to do for fun.
What do they want to do with themselves as they age?
And what they want to do in life?
Stuff like that. Ask them questions about them instead of harping on and on only about myself.
That must be hard though, because you're a very interesting person.
It does get a bit hard at times, but it's just a matter of practice.
Do you remember when your mum and dad told you that you were on the spectrum?
Do you have a memory of that?
I actually don't have a clear memory of it at all.
I never knew that I was on the spectrum until my mother told me when I was 13 years old, because being a kid, I probably wouldn't have understood what she was talking about.
Yeah. What did it feel like when she told you when you were 13?
When she told me, I then thought to myself, that explains why I didn't want to talk to anyone in school.
It all began to make sense to me now.
Yeah. Gosh, that must have been a good moment then in your life to find that out.
I think it was. Do you remember the first time you met someone else who was also on the spectrum?
One of my first friends I met on the spectrum was in year eight.
And how was that? I actually felt a relief to meet someone else on the spectrum.
Someone that could relate to me, someone that gets me.
And this person I've been friends to this day for 16 years.
It's beautiful. Thank you.
What's his name? Lincoln Jones.
Lincoln. Do you get to see Lincoln much these days?
I'm afraid not. Because I live in New South Wales.
He must be very excited that you're this famous person now in Australia.
He's very proud of me.
Well, famous person around the world, actually.
Around the world? You were on Ellen.
Oh yeah, I remember that.
This was like three years ago.
Yeah, but it happened.
Yeah, it happened. None of us have been on Ellen.
Because sometimes I do some acting.
And when I go on sets as an actor, I get really, really nervous.
Because I want to make sure I do a good job.
And I'm nervous that I'll be able to be as good as the other actors.
Were you nervous when you did your first acting?
I was a little bit nervous because I didn't know what to expect.
But also, you shouldn't go on a film or television set, trying to be as good as the other actors.
Just be yourself. And perform your role to the best way you can.
That's good advice.
Is that advice that you knew instinctively, or did someone tell that to you?
I think someone told me that I should just be myself.
Yeah, how did it come about that you went from Love On The Spectrum to acting in Austin?
Did someone contact you?
How did that happen?
I'll explain. Keon, who directed Love On The Spectrum, is friends with another director at Northern Pictures named Darren Ashton.
I know Darren Ashton.
Really? Yeah, I know Darren.
Lovely, lovely man.
Yes, I know. He's the best.
So in January 2020, Darren came to my place and personally offered me the role of Austin himself.
And there was no audition.
Really? After that moment, I saw it as a chance to pursue acting all over again.
But this time, I did it with more determination.
And because I was refusing to let that dream go.
And can you tell us about the character that you play?
Okay, sure. Austin is a forklift driver from Canberra who lives with his mother and he's also on the Spectrum.
And the character is also based on me.
Oh, they wrote it basing it on you.
Yeah. Drawing in for my experiences in life.
So that means then were you able to give input when you were on set?
Yes. And I also have the ability to improvise as well.
Gee, that's very helpful.
You improvised on set.
Yes. Wow. That is an incredible skill.
I would be terrible at improv.
Really? Yeah. Why do you think that here?
I think you'd be pretty good here.
Well, let's, Ryan, we'll do a scene and I'll do improv.
Alright. Feel free to jump in, Michael.
Sure. Hugh, thank you so much for coming to this pilot testing course.
We're obviously looking for new pilots for our planes.
And we hear you're the best pilot in the area.
Oh, okay. I'm a pilot.
Actually, I'll just jump in right there.
I believe that I have the skills to fly a plane smoothly because I've had 10 years of experience.
Oh, where did you get your experience?
I flew planes for Qantas and Jetstar and Virgin all in the space of 10 years.
Oh, that's amazing.
You're exactly the sort of pilot we're looking for.
I'm so glad you showed up because this Hugh guy sounds terrible.
So thanks so much for putting your hand up.
What's your name? Oh, my name's Henry.
Henry, lovely to meet you.
Wow. In the scene. That's improvisation.
What I did was improvise.
It was that, what I did or not really.
You keep working on that.
I'll tell you what, Hugh.
Thank God you're not here.
Oh, wait, that's right.
He is here. That's also improvisation.
Thank God you're here, Michael, saving that scene.
Help me improve my skills in acting and voice acting as well as, as the years passed in my life, I began to notice more and more different content.
Content from Pixar, DreamWorks, Blue Sky Studios, Disney, a lot of those things.
And I would practice any voice that I was drawn to.
Oh, so can you do voices like of characters, like impressions?
Yeah, definitely. Okay, how about Bugs Bunny?
Nope. How about Woody from, a Woody from Toy Story?
I could give it a shot.
Yeah. It's the same choice.
I cannot sound the same as Tom Hanks though.
Well, that's tough.
See, that is tricky.
Here we go. Okay. First off, we all knew operation playtime was a long shot.
It's pretty good. Very good.
With no practice. I know.
How about, how about the Roadrunner?
Meep, meep. That's perfect.
I'm trying to think of other good.
Elsa from Frozen? No, I've got one.
I don't do female characters.
Fair enough. How about Fred Flintstone?
Sure. I don't care.
The last person we need in our lives is the Great Gazoo.
That was brilliant.
That is excellent. Yeah, so good.
Outstanding. I actually don't know those cartoons as well as I should, but I do love Dreamworks, I love Dreamworks animations.
Since you mentioned the subject of a Dreamworks film, my favorite films from Dreamworks are The Kung Fu Panda franchise and Puss in Boots The Last Wish.
More than Trek. Yep.
I haven't seen Puss in Boots The Last Wish.
Seriously? Yeah. It was released two years ago.
You've gotten two years to watch it.
I haven't got around to it.
I agree with you Michael.
I was once a fan of the Madagascar films, but I grew out of them because there are some things about it that I'm not impressed by.
The size of the Central Park Zoo.
It looks to me it feels more like Central Park Penitentiary.
It is prison -like, isn't it?
The enclosures aren't large enough and they're too close to each other.
Oh, so you're more worried about the welfare of the animals.
Exactly because animals are not supposed to be there for entertainment, they're there for conservation purposes and to provide us with education about animals.
Because animals are these fascinating marvels that we should learn about all the time, especially in school.
So you are a very empathetic person, aren't you?
Yes, that's right. Yeah, you're very good at thinking about how other something else or someone else would feel.
Yeah, exactly. Because after all, when I go to a zoo, I don't go there to be entertained.
I go there just to admire the animals from a safe distance.
If I wanted to be entertained, I'd much rather go to the cinemas.
Yes. What is it about Puss in Boots The Last Wish that you love so much?
I explain why I love that film a lot.
It's because of the animation, the voice acting, and the messages behind the film.
The message is to appreciate your life as much as you can.
And it also deals with a serious and sensitive topic known as death.
Death comes for us all.
But all you can do between now and then is live your life to the fullest in the best way you can and just value your life as much as you can.
And if you ever have the guts to try to wish for more lives, it's not a good idea.
Really? Because as far as I'm concerned, one life is enough.
Make the most of it.
Exactly. Because where's the fun in being immortal?
I know. It's something that you hear people wanting, but like, why would you want to live forever?
I don't want to live forever.
Neither. Neither. When I was 21, I actually became a closet fan of an old show called The Powerpuff Girls.
Oh, I've never seen The Powerpuff Girls.
I know. Shocking. You're joking.
I've never seen it.
You've seen it? Yes.
What's your favorite?
Who's your favorite character, Hugh?
Not the main. Yeah.
Just a name. Just one name.
He doesn't need to know the name.
No, this is important because Hugh's claimed that he's a fan of Powerpuff Girls.
I just can't believe you haven't seen him.
The three girls are named Blossom, Bubbles and Buttercup.
Bubbles and Buttercup are my favorite.
The three of them are my favorite.
In the past few years, I've actually began to see more of the old Hanna -Barbera shows.
They didn't do just the Flintstones and the Jetsons.
They did Scooby -Doo, Wacky Races, Yogi Bear, Huckleberry Hound.
It was a time when television was pure.
Incredible. I mean, Love on the Spectrum is a pure.
That's a, it's one of the best shows I've ever seen in my entire life.
I would say that's pure and you must feel very proud to be one of the stars of that.
I actually am very proud to be one of the stars in it, but I will admit this.
Love on the Spectrum is more of a documentary, but some people like see it as a reality show, but I'll take it, I guess.
Yeah. I'd love to know what that experience was like.
I'm sure you've talked a lot about Love on the Spectrum.
Yeah. What was that like, like going on dates and meeting people when cameras are filming you?
It actually felt all right.
I barely noticed the cameras.
Really? Like you forgot they were filming you almost.
But also I was told not to look at the camera.
Was that hard? Sometimes it can be a little bit hard not to notice it.
And the dates I had in the first season, looking back on it, they weren't exactly the best dates I ever had.
What was the best date you've ever had on or off television?
One of the best dates that I've had off camera at least is going to the Tramway Museum in Loftus with the woman that I'm currently seeing.
Oh, beautiful. And so why was that date so special?
Because she and I happened to love railways.
And she loves Thomas the Tank Engine as much as I do.
Did you know that before you went on the date?
Yep. And so what is it about railways that you like?
I could never really explain why, but railways, I've always been of great fascination to me ever since I was three years old.
I started watching Thomas the Tank Engine when I was three years old, and everything about that show just appealed to me.
The narration, the characters, and how everything was set out.
It sparked a lifelong interest in railways.
I love Thomas the Tank Engine.
In fact, I still love it and watch it to this day.
I've got two young boys, and they love Thomas the Tank Engine, so I get to watch it a lot now.
But I refuse to watch the reboot.
Well, I wanted to ask you your opinion on the different themes, because there's the old theme song and the new theme song, but I think I know what your answer's going to be on which theme song's better.
What do you think? It's not going to be.
That's just... The theme team should never have existed in the first place.
The original theme song's one of the greatest theme songs in cartoon history.
I don't know why they changed it.
Anyway, I feel the same way as you on that, Michael.
Thank you. Did you want me to sing the new theme song as well?
Oh, no. Please don't.
And anyway, in my opinion, the best theme songs are the ones without lyrics.
So the original Thomas the Tank Engine?
Yep. But also The Good Place, Parks and Recreation, Brooklyn Nine -Nine, Faulty Towers.
None of them have lyrics.
So, but they're catchy to listen to.
Yeah, that's true. So Faulty Towers is one of your favorite shows?
It is, yes. What a great show that is.
I know. And some other old shows that I'm quite a fan of are I Dream of Genie and Gilligan's Island.
Well, you're wearing a Gilligan's Island t -shirt.
Yep, I am. Embarrassingly you had to explain to me because I never watched Gilligan's Island.
Gilligan's Island is an old television series from the 1960s.
My parents grew up with it and they introduced it to me when I was doing my first year of high school, which for me was my first year of hell.
Really? It's a very hard thing to do to go to a new school.
It is. We chatted on the phone.
We had a lovely chat on the phone yesterday.
And one of the things you said that you could maybe talk about is anxiety because you do get anxious from time to time.
Do you feel anxious a lot of the time or is it just sometimes?
Well, I was in my teenage years.
It was pretty bad to the point where I had to miss out on a few days of school.
And at one point had to lay down.
Really? My down I meant.
Well, what does it feel like for you when you feel anxious?
For me, I just, it would become frustration and also overly worried.
Yes. But what would help me calm down again is just being left alone and having some quiet space.
Was there anything and even now if you still get anxiety, but was there anything that showed up regularly and made you anxious?
Was there a consistent or repetitive thing?
Yes. In high school, there was the homework, the assignments, the exams, all of it was just too much for me, especially with mathematics.
But the one component of maths that I really struggled with the most was units of measurement.
So what are units? Like you mean centimetres and...
Yep. Centimetres, metres and millimetres and all that.
Because in my mind, I'm not intellectually gifted.
Not to that point, at least.
That's why I prefer working with my hands, because my strengths are in that.
Woodwork was my strongest subject at high school.
Okay. Because I love working with my hands.
I excel in it, doing something that's performed by the body, but with the mind.
Nah, I was never passionate about it.
My heart was never in it.
My heart was never in high school to begin with.
All of it was just too much for me and hence why it caused the anxiety.
Did making friends help with the anxiety?
It did help in some ways, but the academic side of school was still there.
Yeah. It just, my heart was just not in it.
It was too much for me and I just wasn't enjoying school because of that.
Yeah. But I also couldn't stand how immature the students were.
Okay. Yeah, that would make a difficult environment.
Yeah, it did. Yeah.
Do you remember your mum working when you were growing up?
Was she working or?
Yep. She worked. Both my parents did.
What did they do for work?
Oh, they worked in finances.
All right. Your mum sounds so wise.
She is. And so she obviously did so much for you.
Yeah. Growing up, can you talk a bit about your mum and what she means to you?
My mum's mother is one of the most important people in my life.
She supported me. She encouraged me to do things.
She raised me the best way she could.
I think she did more than her best.
And she basically was like the best mother a man could hope for.
But she also wanted herself to be this perfect mother, but no child that needs a perfect mother.
Because mothers aren't supposed to be perfect.
They're just meant to be loving maternal figures.
Realistically, at the end of the day, trying to be perfect is a wild goose chase.
Yes. Because humans aren't meant to be perfect.
Because humans are flawed creatures.
That could be the new promotion for this show, the imperfect.
Yes. That's right. Because if you're trying to be the best person ever, eventually no one gives a shit.
Perfect. And why should they?
Because everyone's got their own problems.
Everyone's living their own life.
Everyone's running their own race.
Why can't people just learn to live by that?
Exactly. We've been doing this show for six years.
I don't think anyone's put it as eloquently as that.
Yeah, absolutely. Do you want children of your own?
Honestly, I don't really know if I do.
Because the expenses turn me off from the idea.
Understandably. And also because I'm pursuing an acting career, and I'm not prepared to give that up.
Fair enough. That's a good thing to know about yourself, I think.
Yeah. This is my way of making a living.
Yeah, beautiful. And do you have aspirations as an actor?
Yes, I definitely have aspirations as an actor.
Do you feel comfortable sharing them?
Yeah, sure. Voice acting is one of them.
Any kind of role in voice acting, especially villainous characters.
Really? What is it about a villainous character that excites you or interests you?
It's a healthy way to channel any unreleased anger that you may have.
It's true. I mean, I know that I always find it much more fun when I'm acting.
I find it much more fun to play like the asshole character.
You know, the guy who no one likes.
Like that's really fun.
It is. And I want to be a versatile actor who can perform many roles in different genres, except for slashes and thrillers.
Okay, not interested in that kind of film.
Yeah, I don't watch those kind of films actually.
Even though I want to be a versatile performer in all genres, comedy is my main thought.
Because I still consider myself mostly a comedic actor.
Well, you're very good.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
And my favorite style of comedy is Deadpan.
If you ever saw Parks and Recreation, that character Trevor Nelson is an example of a deadpan character.
This is what he sounds like.
Ever since my client has opened his door across the street, your sales have plummeted.
It's only a matter of time before you're out of business.
But my client has recently had a moment of weakness, something he referred to as sympathy.
You got a great memory, Michael.
Thank you. Do you? How do you go when you're reading scripts?
Are you good at remembering the scripts?
Yes, I am. I just need my assistant to help me draw the lines before I start the day.
Yeah. And you remember, obviously, a lot of lines from shows and films.
Yeah, definitely. Amazing.
It was Lincoln, wasn't it, your friend?
Yep. Growing up, did you two laugh a lot together?
Yep. We two were basically inseparable.
We were like Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble, Shaggy and Scooby, SpongeBob and Patrick.
We're like those three duos.
And was a lot of that deadpan sort of humor a big thing?
Oh, not for you two.
No. I didn't even know about deadpan comedy until I got into my 20s.
That's when I started watching Parks and Recreation, The Good Place and Brooklyn 99.
That's why I got into deadpan comedy because of those deadpan characters like Ron Swanson, April Ludgate.
Ron Swanson, one of the greatest characters in TV history.
Yes, I know. He's the man I wish my dad was.
That's deadpan comedy.
That is deadpan comedy.
I love imitating him.
Yeah, can you do some Ron Swanson?
I don't see what the problem is.
I will give you a certain amount of gold in exchange for a recreational vehicle.
This will be my new home.
The address is wherever it is poked.
It's pretty funny. Excellent.
I'm so impressed with all that you've learned to do.
And I'm wondering, as an adult, on the spectrum, what are the things that you still find difficult?
Learning new things is something that I still find a bit challenging, but I just go into it and just take each moment as it comes.
This might be a difficult question, so if it doesn't work for you, that's fine.
But I wondered, in the past, we haven't seen many people with autism acting and in big productions like you are, and there's a handful of actors out there now with autism that we know about and see on the screens.
Does being a part of a new generation of people on our screens showing autism as it is, does that fill you with pride?
Does it make you think about other people with autism, or is it not something you've considered?
At times it's something that I have considered, and I'm actually glad they're bringing more autistic people into the industry, because autistic characters can only be played by autistic actors, because they have the lived experience while non -autistic actors don't have that.
And also because Austin's on the spectrum and I am too.
Back in the 2000s on screen, autism wasn't featured that much.
In reality, it wasn't socially or publicly accepted as it is today.
Even though all that progress has been accomplished, in terms of employment and dating, there's still a fair bit of work to be done.
Absolutely, yeah. Well I think you're right in the middle of doing that work.
Thank you. It's very, very inspiring what you're doing.
Thank you. There'll be a lot of people listening to this episode who are on the spectrum.
There'll be lots of people who are not on the spectrum.
What do you think it's important for people not on the spectrum to know about people who are on the spectrum?
People on the spectrum just want to be treated the same as everybody else.
They don't want or need special treatment.
Everyone on the autism spectrum is different.
Some of them are extroverts.
Some are introverts.
Some like to be left alone.
Some like to be social butterflies like me.
All you have to do is just ask them what they want and what you can do to accommodate them.
Not make assumptions or tell them what they want.
Listen to what they want.
For all employers in the world, this is what you should know about people on the spectrum.
They just want to work at the same capacity as everybody else does.
All you need to do is just give them a chance.
When I say a chance, I don't mean one day.
That's not enough for a chance.
Just be patient with them.
Just talk to them. Ask them what can I do to make you feel included?
What can I do to accommodate you?
Talk to them. Ask them questions like that.
It's not that hard.
Don't write them off.
Exactly. Because people on the spectrum want to work as much as everybody else does.
Do what you can to make them feel included.
Beautifully said. Thank you.
And speaking of which, in terms of dating...
There's been no dating app that's accommodated the needs of autistic people.
But luckily, there is one now.
Really? It's called Wable.
Which stands for Willing and Able.
It's a new dating app for people on the spectrum.
And it's not just for find love.
It's also for making friends as well.
I've been using the app and I've managed to make a friend out of it.
Really. That's really good.
It launched earlier in February this year.
You must have been so excited when that launched.
Yes. And I'll tell you why I was excited.
Because I actually happen to be the ambassador for Wable.
There you go. So did they reach out to you and ask you to be involved?
Yes, they did. The CEO and co -founder named Holly Wable.
I mean, Holly Fowler I meant.
She was one of the many people in Melbourne, binging Love on the Spectrum back in 2020 during that infamous kerfuffle.
Lockdown. Yeah. I didn't want to mention the word.
I'll never mention it again.
Perfect. So she was inspired by my journey to create a safe platform for people on the spectrum so they can find love and make friends themselves.
So it was inspired by you?
Essentially, yeah. But I just don't like to take a lot of credit for it.
With friendships, I know you mentioned Lincoln, of course.
But do you find it easier to make friends with people on the spectrum or just anyone?
I find it easy to make friends with pretty much anyone, whether they're on the spectrum or not.
Because if they're on the spectrum or not, what is the difference?
They're both friendships at the end of the day.
If I feel very personally connected to them, they're no different.
Yep, absolutely. And also, because I made a reference to that kerfuffle from 2020.
Yep, from 2020. That was a bad time for me as well.
I was anxious and in low spirits almost every day and I was living in survival mode.
For someone like you who's a social butterfly and someone who obviously gets a lot of joy from seeing people and spending time with people, that must have been really hard.
Exactly. It did feel that way.
In fact, at one point, my spirits were so low to the point that my supervisor in my old job was concerned about it and decided to give me the week off work so I could get my head right.
And it helped because what my mother and I did was we went on long power walks together.
And I also consulted with a therapist and did a little bit of reading and listened to some meditation music and that all helped.
That's amazing. So, things for me can take a little while to get to where I need to be or want to be, but it's worth it in the end.
I would like to congratulate you on something.
What's that? I've got it written down here in front of me because I do want to get it wrong, but I'd like to congratulate you on the casting guild of Australia's Rising Star Award.
Thank you. Because this is a very big deal.
Yeah, I'm very flattered and honored, but just curious, how did you find out about that?
Well, I've got a very good researcher called Bella behind the curtain.
Oh yes, of course. You know Bella.
In fact, I'm most curious to see who will be the other nine rising stars.
And anyway, when I was a little kid, I went from a nonverbal, autistic kid who was off in his own world all the time to now someone with many hats.
An actor, a former podcaster, employee of aspect, actually autism consultant at aspect.
Ambassador for Wable, and I'm also writing a children's book.
Oh, really? What's it called?
Or is it a secret? It's a secret.
Okay, good. That's all right.
That is so inspiring and so incredible.
Thank you. Exactly as you said, to go from a nonverbal child to what you're doing is just, it's wonderful.
It's incredible and I think it's so important to highlight that.
So a lot of people out there can hear it and yeah, and can be inspired and see potentially a journey out there for them that they can't quite see there yet.
Yeah, of course. You may not know how you're going to get that goal you want to achieve, but you'll find your way and you'll get there in the end, like I did.
I think it's a lovely sentiment and I agree with you totally, Josh.
And I think also for people out there on the spectrum who are not sure how they're going to get to where they want to go, but also to parents out there who have kids on the spectrum, who are finding things really hard, listening to you, I think will give them great hope that their kids could one day
be like you. But also the thing is parents who have kids on the spectrum can't just give in to what other people tell them.
They should think about what's best for their kids.
And if the parent decides that their child is going to have better, then do it.
So trust their parental instincts.
Exactly. But also to remember that your child is not going to be a child forever and sheltering them from everything and being overprotective of them is the last thing that you should do for your autistic kids.
They'll just grow up to be vulnerable and when you pass on, how's your son or daughter supposed to survive?
Children, whether they're autistic or not, need to be taught independence and learn how to fend for themselves because the purpose of a parent is to prepare your kids for the world.
Beautifully said. Michael, you are saying beautifully about how your mother tried to get you to be in the present moment.
Yep. Do you think she was, by example, very good at being in the present moment with you?
Yes, she was. I couldn't think of a better example than Mum.
That's beautiful. She did an excellent job bringing me out of that shell and I'm really grateful that she did because if she didn't, I wouldn't be the person that I am today.
But also because of my own hard work of getting to where I wanted to be.
Absolutely. Because I wanted to fight it as well, as much as Mum did.
What's been the hardest part of your life and your journey when you look back on it so far?
I think what's the hardest thing about my journey has been is that breaking down all the social barriers in life, the barriers that have been set up by society because people on the spectrum should not be seen as stereotypes because they're all different.
You said earlier on that your advice to people acting is just to be yourself.
I think you have applied that to your life as well.
And if you are going to be an actor, don't pursue the fame.
Just let it come to you and if it comes, just take it in stride.
If you're ego driven, it's a bad idea because you can't be better than everybody else.
Yeah, it's just about focusing on the acting, focus on the work.
Yeah, on the work, the craft itself.
Fame is something that I never wanted to pursue.
How do you feel about the fame now?
I feel fine. It's overall lovely, but okay.
Well, it has been such a privilege to chat to you today.
To spend time with you has brought us all a lot of joy.
Thank you, gentlemen.
Thanks for having me on.
I really appreciate it.
How good is that? I mean, firstly, I love that guy.
Even considering the way he grew up, I mean, being nonverbal.
It's unbelievable to the use where he is now, considering he's nonverbal for so long.
But I love hearing how cartoons were such a big thing for him and how he connected with cartoons and obviously still does.
Brilliant. I mean, it feels like a really great way to finish the season for me because I think one of the major takeaways I've had or one of the feelings I've really had is how great it's been to chat to people who are neurodivergent and have them on the podcast to hear what their life is like and to
hear what they have gone through to get where they are now.
It's so incredibly impressive because the world is not designed for neurodivergent people.
And so the extra effort it takes to just get through every day is so incredible.
We've chatted with Grace Tame and we've chatted with Fern Brady, both autistic people.
We've chatted with Jack Steele and Jackson Tozer, both ADHD.
We've chatted with Janelle Booker about, as an expert's view, a psychologist.
And I just feel like, I mean, with the rates of diagnosis increasing for both ADHD and autism, I feel like it's on neurotypical people to listen more and learn more to help make their world easier.
The world is absolutely not set up for them.
It's set up for neurotypical people and it's on us to make the world easier for them.
And even with, you know, I've had so many things happen this year where, despite all the compositions we've had, I still catch myself not thinking properly through what it's like to be in their shoes.
So a good example would be when I picked up Michael from, I walked to the hotel where he was staying and we walked back to the studio, we shook hands and then he said, where are we going?
I said, we're walking down that way and he walked in front of me for a bit.
And I was sort of trying to catch up with him and he was on a mission to get there.
And I thought, oh, maybe I've done something.
Have I, it was something I said yesterday in the pre -interview that he didn't like, or have I offended him?
And then when I caught up to him and we started chatting when we got back here, I realized, no, it was just like, he must be exhausted from, he's travelled from Wollongong that morning, drove into the airport, got to the airport and then come to Melbourne, checked into the hotel.
And that's a lot. Doing this interview, I think is a lot for anyone, let alone someone who is trying to understand different social cues that are around and read emotions.
He's just had to manage a lot to get to where he was.
And he was me thinking, I made it about me.
It was like, what have I done?
I must have done something.
Even Grace Tame, who was so incredible.
And I remember, I don't think you can underestimate how much it means for neurodivergent people to be asked what they need.
And remember when we turned the lights down for Grace, because we knew the sensory stuff for an autistic person.
And she was in tears.
That really meant a lot to her.
Penny and I were at the Melbourne marathon the other day, because Penny ran the half marathon and we were making our way through the crowd at the end.
And there are hundreds of thousands of people outside the MCG.
And we sort of came around the corner and quite literally bumped into Grace.
And I got really excited just, and I went to hug her, she kind of stepped away a little bit and tried to avoid being hugged, basically.
And in the next two seconds, my bro went, oh, what have you done?
You've done something.
She doesn't like you.
I'd think the same thing.
Yeah. But then I said, how are you going?
She goes, terrible.
I'm autistic. This is my nightmare.
Get me out of here.
There's people everywhere.
Way too loud. Yeah.
And I went, oh yeah, of course, like there's so much going on for her.
And yet I've made that about myself.
And I think we just got to get better at when we know someone's neurodivergent, just thinking, gosh, I'm in awe of any neurodivergent people with the work they have to do to make sense of the world around them to function because he's not set up for them.
And I think the conversations we've had this year with those people will have many more to come, for me, have been really important.
Yeah. I think the show sort of started years ago under a premise of like we, it wasn't exactly this, but the idea of that we don't know what other people are going through, in respect to, and originally it was a sort of different vision of that.
But I've found it to be in every case this year, but especially with different neurodivergent people have spoken to this year.
It's been such an honor to be, for them to be so generous as to let us into what life is like for each of them individually.
And it's just such a reminder that everyone is, everyone, everyone is going through things differently and experiencing things differently.
But I had no idea about what it's like to be neurodivergent and to get some examples of that and the generosity of the people who have come on to share what that's like.
It's just, what an honor to have those conversations.
It's been a great year.
God. And I was going to say, we should thank some people, but the three of us pretty much did everything, didn't we?
Yeah. I mean, I've cut a lot of videos and edited a shit ton.
What's your favourite tool on the editing software here?
The magic touch. I think that's called George Martin, the magic touch.
Yeah. Okay. No, I mean, we have so many.
Well, first and foremost, I think we should thank the guests.
The show would be nothing without the guests that would just be us talking about things, weird things that happen to you at the bakery.
Luckily, we have the guests and they've just been so generous, vulnerable.
I can't believe some of the people we've gotten to speak to this year.
I know. Really. Yeah.
And the effort they go to, like, they really put a lot of thought into it.
And they really make themselves vulnerable.
And that's not an easy thing to do.
So we are very grateful for that.
Yeah. We are blessed with the most extraordinary team of people.
They are just the best in the world of what they do, but also the best people in the world.
So that's a great combination.
So as we go through and name them all, why don't we also say the first thing that comes to mind when we think of them?
Okay. Great. Yep. Bridget North East, our producer.
Yeah. She's like, producer and partner in the company.
Yeah. Yeah. In everything.
Yeah. Safe. I don't know.
First one that's coming to mind is Queen.
Cool. But in a good way.
Okay, good. But like, also that everything is going to be okay.
I'm just getting a bit loved.
I feel so loved on Roundbridge.
Assistant producer, another Northeast in Bella, Northeast.
Optimistic and calm.
There's a sense of curiosity and calm that she brings that is just infectious and optimistic.
Just calm. Okay. I cannot believe how incredibly impressive she is at such a young age.
It just blows my mind.
I have incredible professional respect for Bella Northeast.
Yeah, we're so lucky to have Bella.
She's brilliant. George Munn, who edits the episodes, does the videos, does the social media.
Yeah. Happy. No matter what mood I'm in, when I come in here, if I see George, it turns into happiness.
It's like, I think it's very rare to have such a happy, easy -going person who's also very, very good at what they do.
Rare combination. I don't know what to wear as a 44 -year -old man.
Yeah. And I've tried some things this year, and he's always so supportive.
I saw you comparing pant heights before.
He's always so supportive of what I'm trying to wear.
Yeah. And I reckon there must have been times where he's like, I'm not sure, mate.
Because he goes, I love that.
I love what you're wearing.
So he makes me feel validated for my experimental clothing choices.
Next up, we have Jamison Moore, who does, edits all of Dr.
M's episodes. She's the best storyteller in the world.
Giggle and laugh makes me giggle.
I am desperately in love with her.
Which, just for HR, she is my partner, so I can say that.
She's also really good at what she does.
But first and foremost, yeah, desperately in love.
I am so happy whenever I'm around Jam.
She makes me feel so happy.
Next up, we have Dr.
M. Dr. M, she's like a warm hug, a warm, intelligent hug.
Dr. M, I'm just like, I feel just very grateful that we're able to have her as part of our show.
Dr. M, for me, the first thing I think about is like, we knew each other when we were like 17, 18 years old and I feel incredible pride when I see the amazing stuff she's doing in the world.
So I feel proud. But then also there's something nice about hanging out with someone who you've known for a long time, like a really long time.
Also as a side note, there must have been something in the water at the Baldwin cinema.
You two both work there at the same time.
And look at the incredible things you've both done.
Something's happening at Baldwin cinema.
I'd be sending my kids to work there.
Must be something in the post mix.
Yeah. Yep. He was happy with that.
I think what you meant to say There's a disproportionate amount of pride in my own current post mix.
And that's the team.
Yep. And then also a massive thanks to I heart as well for looking after all the ads, making sure we have these incredible companies and brands supporting us.
We just could not do it without them.
So that is a big thank you to them.
The other group to probably thank is the partners of like everyone who's on the show.
I did that. But I feel like they make massive sacrifices with their life for us to be able to do this.
And it kind of, I don't know if it was in the plan for her to make the massive sacrifices because we put a lot of work into this and we travel a lot with a live show.
And when we do that, there's someone looking at the slack at the home front and that should be acknowledged as well.
Yeah, thanks. And the resilience project for their support too.
Oh, thank you to the resilience project.
Give us so much support.
What a wonderful organisation that is.
And my journal Christmas couldn't help himself.
But most importantly, thanks to you listening to the show.
I'm so surprised when anyone says that they listened to it and they got something out of it.
It's just so, it's so cool.
So thank you very, very much.
Sounds like we're finishing, but like we're literally taking a couple weeks off.
Not even that, we're back next week.
Thanks mate. But then we're literally back in like less than a month.
So like this is way over the top.
This is an episode on its own.
Thank you. All right.
Merry Christmas. See you next week.
That's the thing. Christmas, Hanukkah and the rest.
Love you all. Love you all.
Ciao ciao. The glade in the garden, fog in the dark night, I fall to stay with you.
Hugh, it's Ryan. Geez, what a world it would be if we had more Michael Theos in it.
Which actually is pretty good segue into the reason I wanted to call you.
Would you be interested in having a clone?
I just found a cloning kit online, sort of middle of this year.
And I was thinking of cloning you actually, basically so I can just hang out with you more.
But I wanted to get your permission first, obviously.
I cloned myself a few months ago and it's pretty fun.
Isn't it cloned? I'm bored.
Okay. He's in a bad mood today, but usually we have so much fun together.
No we don't. We do.
We do. Anyway, let me know if you want to clone.
It's Ryan. I'm hungry.
And clone Ryan from the podcast.
To call back, press 22.
To replay message, press 1, 21.
The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh van Carlenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh van Carlenberg.
Our executive producer is Bridget North East, assistant producer, Bella North East.
This episode is edited by George Martin with music from No Mono.
The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
