From the brains behind Brains On, it's Smash Boom Best. The show for people with big opinions.
Hi, I'm Molly Bloom, and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best. Today's debate is a showdown between two beloved stories, Matilda versus Alice in Wonderland.
Author and grim grimor grimaced podcast host Adam Gidwitz is here to defend Roald Dahl's Brainpower and Rebellion for Team Matilda, and filmmaker and rapper Jun Sekiya is here to sing the praises of Lewis Carroll's Whimsical World of Wonder for Team Alice in Wonderland.
And here to judge it all is Elsa from Minneapolis.
Elsa Loves being in Speech at School in the Humorous category is going through a major dolly part and phase and check this out has played both Matilda and Alice on stage.
Hi Elsa! Hi Molly. So Elsa you are truly the expert here what do you love about Matilda and Alice and like what do you feel like you learned about them playing them on stage?
Yes well that's it's so fun to have a special connection with both of them with Matilda she really uses her knowledge as a power I guess to take her friends and everybody around her through this sort of journey of rebellion.
And then Alice in Wonderland, what I really like is that she's in this whole other world is experiencing all of these, you know, kind of fantastical sort of experiences.
So it's very cool. They're both very different, yet very similar at the same time.
What would you feel like is their main, like, similarity?
That they're both very curious.
They're both very curious, and they both want to learn more, and see what there is more to the world.
And what about their, like, main differences?
I think that Alice is more prim and proper, and Matilda is a bit more tough and wants to, you know, really learn and read.
So I think that those are the major differences between the two.
Do you have any advice for our debaters today as an experienced judge?
Good luck, and I wish both of you the best. Oh, so wonderful.
Well, will Elsa side with Adam or June?
Only time will tell.
But first, here are the rules of the game.
Every debate consists of four rounds.
The Declaration of Greatness, The Micro Round, The Sneak Attack, and The Final Six.
After each round, our judge, Elsa, will award points to the team that impresses her the most, but she'll keep her decisions top secret until the end of the debate.
Listeners, we want you to judge too.
Mark down your points as you listen.
At the end of the show head to our website, SmashBoom .org, and vote for whichever team you think won.
Adam, June, and Elsa, are you ready?
Yes! Let's do it! So ready!
Okay, then it's time for the....
Declaration of Greatness In this round, our debaters will present a well -crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side.
Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponents' statements.
With Trekoyne and Adam, you're up first. Tell us what makes Matilda such a thrill -da.
Matilda is easily one of the greatest stories of all time.
It's about an extraordinary little girl who lives with two of the meanest, most ignorant parents ever.
They refuse to get her books.
What's wrong with the telly, they want to know.
So she starts sneaking out to the library, where she reads every single book in the children's section and then moves on to grown -up books, like great expectations.
By the time she starts school, she can do high school work, but the cruel principle, Ms. Trunchbull, forces her to stay in first grade.
Matilda is powerfully bored and furious at the injustices Ms. Trunchbull visits upon her classmates.
She is so bored, in fact, and so furious, that one day something strange happens.
And now quite slowly, there began to creep over Matilda a most extraordinary and peculiar feeling.
A sense of power was brewing in those eyes of hers and all of a sudden, she found she was frightened by nobody in the world.
And that is when Matilda becomes a superhero.
But before she becomes a hero, Matilda is just a kid who feels utterly powerless, a kid who's pushed aside by nearly every adult in her life?
Here's just one example.
Her father is used car salesman who cheats his customers.
When Matilda finds out she is appalled.
But Daddy, that's disgusting.
You're cheating people who trust you.
If you don't like it then don't eat the food in this house.
It's bought with the profits.
It's dirty money. I hate it.
Who the heck do you think you are?
The archbishop of Canterbury or something?
Preaching to me about honesty, you're just an ignorant little squirt who hasn't the foggiest idea of what you're talking about.
But Matilda won't be kept down for long, and she fights back with amazing pranks.
Which brings me to the first reason why Matilda is so incredible.
Even if this book were nothing more than a prank manual, the pranks alone would make it one of the most useful books of all time.
From super gluing the inside of your dad's favorite hat just before he puts it on...
What is this? My hat won't come off!
Help! To putting your mom's hair dye in your dad's shampoo bottle...
My hair! Holy moly!
I'm platinum blonde!
To putting a newt in your headmistress's drink...
What the...? Any one of these pranks will get you in such deep trouble that you definitely should not try them at home.
But they're good, aren't they?
Soon even the pranks aren't enough, though.
At school, the evil Ms. Trunchbull uses her power and Olympic -level athletic ability to terrify students and teachers alike, and it's here that Matilda becomes a superhero.
Her pent -up brilliance finally finds an outlet through her eye balls, she can move objects with her eyes.
And with this superpower, she begins a campaign to scare the Trunchbull so badly that she will ultimately flee town, freeing them all.
You see, Matilda isn't just a brilliant and lovable girl.
She overcomes her mother, her father and Miss Trunchbull to free herself and her whole school.
She doesn't just accept her fate, she creates her own destiny.
But the story of Matilda isn't just her story, it's all of our stories.
Now, we're not all geniuses who learn to read at the age of two, much less have so much unused brain power we learn to move things with our eyes.
But there have been times for all of us when we have felt unappreciated.
Matilda's parents and the Trunchbull refuse to see that she's special, when nothing could be more obvious and plain to us, the readers.
It makes us scream with rage and indignation how blind they are to the simple, kind, extraordinary specialness of this tiny girl.
We have all felt like screaming with rage when someone has refused to see what is good and right and special about a situation or a person or about us.
Why don't the other kids like me at school?
Why doesn't my teacher ever call me?
When will my parents see what's really special about me, instead of just finding things to criticize.
Matilda is just an extreme example of how we all feel.
And so her incredible triumph at the end is satisfying because it isn't just her victory, it is ours too.
Wow, a declaration of greatness about a girl who can move things with her mind and Adam has moved us all with his words.
Elsa, what stood out to you about Adam's declaration of greatness?
Well, I love how he went through Matilda's journey of gaining her powers.
And I could really envision everything when he was telling it.
It was almost like I was there.
And it really felt like a story, which was really nice tie to Matilda.
Okay, June, it is time for your rebuttal.
Tell us why Matilda is meh.
You've got 30 seconds and your time starts now.
Okay, so Adam talks about Matilda as a superhero, which I think is an interesting choice of words because to me, Matilda is a super villain.
That's how Roald Dahl was actually first trying to write Matilda as a character who uses her telekinetic powers to torment her parents and teachers.
And if you look at the book, the seat of that is actually still there because as terrible as her parents are, she's essentially teaching children that it's okay to fight fire with fire.
And time! Adam, anything you'd like to say in return?
If fighting cruel and stupid adults with superpowers is wrong, I don't wanna be right.
All right, June, it is your turn.
Tell us why Alice in Wonderland has such grand command.
Drop the beat. Ladies and gentlemen, esteemed judge of Smash Boom best, I'd like to start with a few ryhmes?
oh, yeah. catch me in the rabbit hole dazzled by a magic show by the wonderlander standing up with alice.
yo, no competition but tilde's just an average show.
now let me introduce you to our cast of characters.
i mean characters. sorry i'm a bad rapper but at least i'm not as tacky as the mad hatter.
at his tea party crunch he got a jam platter and a teacup now listen to the glass shatter.
how about tweetle dum?
do i even need a punnison and then for silliness we're leaving all your TD I'm with Tweetle D have you ever at a match. Running out of time haven't even got the Cheshire Cat.
A treasure stash of characters in fun jewels.
No dumb rules, no humdrum school.
No punch pulled on punk fools like Crunchbowl.
Wonderland's munching on Matilda like Lunchable.
Alice in Wonderland, ladies and gentlemen.
Uh, number one on top.
Greatest of all time.
Yeah. Su - So look, raps aside, I like the book Matilda.
It's funny, easy to read, and has one really memorable character.
But Alice in Wonderland and all of its incredible characters are in another league.
Why? Let's spill the tea.
First, Alice in Wonderland is truly old school.
It was written more than 150 years ago in 1865 when Abraham Lincoln was president and the height of fashion was wearing big skirts over literal steel cages.
Back then there weren't many books for kids, and the ones that did exist were often about lazy or disobedient kids being punished or learning their lesson.
Enter Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.
Alice blew the door open for kids books that were pure fun.
If you haven't read it, the story is truly wild.
It's about a little girl named Alice who falls down a rabbit hole and enters a fantasy world called Wonderland.
There she meets all sorts of rude -talking animals and has to escape a bloodthirsty Queen.
Reading Alice in Wonderland is like watching an ultra lush Imax movie.
Enchanted mushrooms, giant blue caterpillars, croquet mallet clubs made of live flamingos.
It's your wildest weirdest dream scenarios Alice brought to Vivid Life.
That's right, Alice has a conversation with a literal flower.
Seriously, there are so many strange and magical attractions packed in this story, reading it is like going to a theme park.
Which makes sense because Alice in Wonderland was one of the biggest inspirations for Walt Disney himself.
When Walt was a young cartoonist just starting out he moved to Los Angeles with only a single small suitcase.
Inside was a short cartoon he'd made inspired by… you guessed it… Alice in Wonderland.
But Alice in Wonderland has inspired even more.
From bands like The Beatles, to movies like The Matrix to singers like Lady Gaga and Taylor Swift, Alice has influenced generations of art, music and movies.
And that's because you can interpret the story however you want.
Ask 100 people what the story means and you'll get 100 different answers.
Is it a story about how kids should grow up?
Or about how adults should grow down and be less serious?
Is it allegory about food, about the queen of England, about language and logic, yes to all the above, you, the reader, get to choose your own adventure.
Matilda is great but in the end, it's a pretty narrow story about the good guys being the bad ones, which doesn't leave much room for interpretation.
And for that you gotta give the edge to wonderland, to the queen you love to hate, to tweedle D and Tweedle Dum to mad, silly fun and Cheshire cat grins.
The tea has been spilt, and there's no way to put it back in the pot.
No punch pulled on punk fools like Trunchbull, Wonderland's munching on Matilda like Lunchables.
a jam -packed and rap packed argument there for Alice in Wonderland.
Incredible, Elsa, what stood out to you about June's declaration of greatness?
First of all, I loved the rap and how he used that to tell Alice's story.
I loved how he described in great detail what Wonderland looks like and it was awesome being able to hear how the story inspires and continues to inspire so many people.
Especially like Taylor Swift, Lady Gaga, that was really nice to hear.
Absolutely. Okay, Adam, it is time for your rebuttal.
Tell us why thinking of Alice fills you with malice.
You've got 30 seconds and your time starts now.
First of all, Alice does not fill me with malice.
I love that book, Um, but...
who is Alice? She's a character who isn't really fleshed out at all.
We don't really know much about her emotionally, and it's, therefore, really hard to connect with her.
The book ends up feeling a little bit more like, um, a series of random puzzles and weird things.
But if the whole thing were wrapped by June, maybe I would change my vote to Alice.
That's definitely possible.
And time. June, do you have anything you'd like to say in response?
Yeah, I think that's part of its strength because it allows the reader to put themselves into Alice's shoes and experience Wonderland for themselves so I don't think that's a weakness at all actually.
Okay Elsa you've heard the arguments and it's time to award some points please give one point to the Declaration of Greatness you liked best and one point to the rebuttal that won you over you get to decide what makes a winning argument.
Did one team's jokes make you giggle?
Was another team's logic impeccable.
Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to.
Have you made your decision?
Yes. Excellent. To June and Adam.
How are you two feeling so far?
I was feeling great until June started to rap.
I was like, I have this in the bag.
And the rapping started, and I was like, forget it.
I'm a little nervous, I'm not gonna lie, yeah.
All right, it's time for a quick break.
Devour a chapter of your latest book and get ready for a Tea Party.
And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Best. You're listening to State of Debate, home to raging rhetoric and awe -inspiring argumentation.
Howdy ho, Debate -a -Rinos, I'm Todd Douglas and I'm here with the ranch to my celery sticks.
Taylor Lincoln. And would you believe it?
We just caught another logical fallacy.
Logical fallacies are debate no -no's that make your argument so, so much weaker.
We just saw someone use the false dichotomy fallacy.
That's when a person makes it seem like there are only two sides to an argument, even though there are many different sides.
Check it out. Hey Jojo!
Do you want an apple?
They're delicious. Mmm no thanks, I'm good.
What, you just hate apples?
Uh, that's not what I said.
Well, either you like them or you don't.
If you don't want this apple, well, you must really not like apples.
Not true, Jenny. I just had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch and I'm still full!
Just admit you hate apples, JoJo.
Um, excuse me? That's a false dichotomy.
Just because I don't want an apple right now, doesn't necessarily mean I don't like them.
I'm just too full. And there could be lots of other reasons I don't want an apple.
Like, maybe I just brush my teeth, or I only like Granny Smiths, or maybe I'm allergic.
Oh, whoopsie daisy, my bad.
Sorry for getting ahead of myself.
This should be a fallacy free friendship.
No worries, save me an apple for later.
You got it. JoJo stopped that false dichotomy fallacy in its tracks.
Right. Things are rarely black and white.
There are usually lots of different sides to a story or an argument.
And in this case, many different sides to a snack.
Speaking of, I've got a hankering for a Honeycrisp.
Ooooh, make that two tickets to Crunch Town.
We'll catch you next time on State of Debate!
Brains on Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults.
Since you're a fan of Smash Boom best, you'll love the other shows in our universe.
Come on, let's explore.
It's Alien Laundry Day.
While I wash my nose mufflers and tummy togas, I'll listen to a new podcast!
Hee hee hee! How about...
Forever ago, my favorite history podcast. Whoa.
I was not expecting that to work.
Or if it did sound good.
That's the DJ -dolo technique.
DJ -dolo! When I say pizza, you say bagel, pizza.
Zorp! Signal time! Stay right there, tummy togas.
Must find forever ago, now.
Listen to Forever Ago, wherever you get your podcasts.
Smash. Boom. The best. You're listening to Smash Boom Best. I'm your host Molly Bloom.
And I'm your judge Elsa.
And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners.
Take a listen to this playful debate idea from Rory.
Both bouncy, delightful, and nostalgic as heck.
We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Rory thinks should win.
And now it's back to our debate.
Matilda versus Alice in Wonderland!
That's right, and it's time for round two, the...
Micro round. For the Micro Round Challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a prompt they received in advance.
For Adam and June, the prompt was, Baddie reputation.
In this challenge, a villain from each side needs to clear their reputation.
They want to set the record straight about how they're really not that bad.
Will they redeem themselves?
It's up to Elsa to decide.
Adam went first last time So June you're up.
Do your best to clear the reputation of a baddie from Alice in Wonderland Order order in the court.
We will now hear the arguments of the defendant Thank you.
Good, sir. I The Queen of Hearts rightful sovereign of Wonderland am accused of being a tyrant While it's true I have a flair for ruthless rhetoric, I am above all a community builder.
Think of how disconnected we all live from each other.
The caterpillar on its mushroom.
The Cheshire Cat in its tree.
The mad hatter at his sad little tea party in the woods.
Where would we be without my croquet games to bring us together?
Drifting apart, wrapped up in our own selfish little lives!
And what do you say to the accusation that you, uh, randomly sentence people to death?
Good sir, I'd like to point to your use of the word sentence, as there is a great difference between a death sentence and a death doing.
One is a sentence and Therefore just said, while the other is an action and, therefore, done.
And if you consult the record, you will see that I have never done any death.
That can't be right.
By Jove, her rulings are never enforced.
Action, that is, the lack of it speaks louder than words.
I am afraid the defendant is right.
Wait, the queen of hearts is innocent.
Innocent? Are you calling me naive?
Order. Order in the court.
You dare command the queen.
Off with your head!
Wow. A shocking courtroom twist there.
All right, Adam, it is your turn.
Let's hear from a baddie in the world of Matilda.
Well, it's going to be another great day of swindling suckers out of their money.
I mean, selling quality -used cars for fair prices.
Ah Harry Wormwood, you're cleverer than the whole lot of them put together aren't you?
You handsome devil!
Right, now, where's that hair oil?
Ah, here it is! work it in with your fingertips old boy make those black locks shine.
Yes you're handsome and clever and rich and a very good father too so why won't that nasty little pimple Matilda do as you say blast it?
You tear up one of her library books and she acts like you committed a crime you're just looking out for what's best for her.
No one reads anymore watch more telly that's what I say And she tried to shame you for playing a few harmless tricks on your customers?
How naive can she be?
Everyone cheats and if they don't, they're getting cheated.
It's a dog -eat -dog world and you're the biggest, toughest, handsomest dog out there old boy!
Ugh, and all the thinking Matilda does!
Who wants a kid? Who thinks?
You know what they say about people who think too much?
They've got their heads up there.
Ah! What's wrong with my hair?
Oh! My beautiful hair.
It's platinum blonde.
Matilda. Matilda is behind this, you bet your bottom dollar.
Matilda! Matilda! Ah, poor Mr. Wormwood can't get through his daily ablutions without pranks.
Poor guy. Okay. Elsa, what did you like about Adam and June's micro rounds?
For June's, I loved how the queen acted and how she claimed that she brought people together.
And then for Adam's, I loved how Mr. Wormwood was just talking to himself and kind of hyping himself up in a way.
Yeah. I thought that was pretty funny.
He's doing his - uh, what do they call it?
Like his morning - he has affirmations.
Affirmations. Yes, affirmations!
He's doing the daily affirmations into the mirror.
All right. Please award a point, but don't tell us who it's going to.
straightforward music Have you made your decision?
Yes. Fantastic that it's time for our third round.
The super stealthy...
Haha! Ha -ha! Sneak attack.
This is our improvised round where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot.
Today's sneak attack is called by any other name.
Let's say your story didn't have a name, or that Matilda and Alice in Wonderland were not options for titles.
We want you to come up with three alternative titles for your side.
For example, if your challenge was for the movie Frozen, your alternative title might be snow sisters or winter's chilling embrace or don't get engaged to a sketchy prince you met at a party.
Does all of this make sense?
Yes. Yup. All right.
So we're gonna start with Adam and we will take turns going back and forth.
So Adam, let's hear your first alternate title for Matilda.
Matilda Wormwood's infinite guide to the best pranks of all time.
Excellent. Oops. All right, June, it is your turn.
Let's hear your first alternate title for Alice in Wonderland.
Super color wonder world.
Nice, love it. All right, Adam, your second alternative title, please.
The Tragedy of the Trunch Bowl.
Mm, another, is that like a Wicked -type tale where we are rehaying?
Yeah, we get her side of it.
Yeah, all right, June, your turn again.
Let's hear your second alternative title for Alice in Wonderland.
Alice and the Queen who set off with her head.
I love it very descriptive.
Okay. Adam, let's hear your final title for Matilda.
Power eyeballs. That's a number one bestseller right there.
Come on. How could you not want to pick up that book?
June, what is your last alternative title for Alice in Wonderland?
Annoying Talking Animals...uh Tor.
Did you say Annoying Talking Animals Tor?
Yeah, yeah a colon a tor.
Wonderful, again another book that I would not be able to pass up.
Okay Elsa please think about these excellent alternative titles and think about which side impressed you the most, and please award your fourth point.
Have you made your decision?
Yes. Wow, okay then it's time for our final round.
The final six. In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side.
June, let's hear your six words for making people see the wonder of Alice in Wonderland.
Wonder filled seed of million worlds.
Oh, very nice. All right, Adam, it's your turn.
Please give us six words on the majesty of Matilda.
Girl genius, fighting stupidity and cruelty.
Very nice. All right.
Elsa, it is time to award a final point for this final six.
Are you ready to crown one team the Smash Boom Best?
Yes! Drumroll, please.
And the winner is...
Matilda! No! Thank you, Elsa.
What was the moment that really decided it?
What was your favorite part?
Ooh, I think the mic were around.
That was really it for me.
I thought it was really funny.
It was all about hearing Mr. Wormwood brush his teeth, right?
Yes, yes. The depiction of that, the fact that you guys actually found Mr. Wormwood and got him to brush his teeth into a mic was really unbelievable.
I know. He did have a lot going on, so he helped us out.
June is not only an incredible actor, but also an incredible researcher.
I thought I knew about Alice in Wonderland, and I learned a lot more from his declaration of greatness, so it was an amazing job.
Thank you. So Adam, going in, I was already so afraid because I listened to his previous Smash Boom best debates and he did not disappoint.
He came with so many like Woody angles on what made Matilda so great, and I just like, I could tell how much he loved the book.
and it came through in his declaration of greatness.
Well, excellent work to both of you.
That is it for today's debate battle, Elsa crowned Matilda the Smash Boom best, but what about you?
Head to smashboom .org and vote to tell us who you think won.
Smash Boom best is brought to you by Brains On and APM Studios.
It's produced by me, Molly Bloom, Anna Wegel and Aran Woldusilasi.
We had engineering help from Derek Ramirez and Gary O 'Keefe with sound designed by Anna Weigel.
Our editors are Shaila Farzan.
And Sandin Todd. With fact checking by Rebecca Rand.
And we had production help from the rest of the Brains On Universe team.
Rosie DuPont. Rachel Breeze.
Anna Goldfield. Nico Gonzalez -Whistler.
Ruby Guthrie. Lauren Humphert.
Joshua Ray. Rebecca Rand.
And Mark Sanchez. Our executive producer is Beth Perlman and the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandrav there and Joann Griffith.
Our announcer is Marley Feuerworker -Otto And we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross and Taylor Kaufman.
Adam, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout out to today?
Elsa for inspiring me from the very beginning with her love of Matilda.
Oh, thank you. So nice.
And how about you, Jun?
Any special shout outs?
I'm going to shout out my mom, my sister, and my dad just because I'm not often on radio.
And then Elsa, for having such a crazy life story with playing both of those characters.
Like, probably the best person on the planet to judge this debate.
And then Somin, my mentor, who got me on.
I tried to avenge you, Somin, and beat Adam, but I could not cut the mustard in the end, and I'm sorry.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
And how about you, Elsa?
Any special thanks or shout outs?
Well, both of you. You both did an amazing job, my parents and all my friends at school.
Before we go, let's check in.
and see who Rory thinks should win the slinkys versus slap bracelets debate.
I think slinkys would win because they have more than one purpose and they're more fun to play with.
Smash Boom Best is a nonprofit public radio program.
If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knockdown drag -out debate head to SmashBoom .org slash contact and drop us a line.
And while you're at it Join SmartyPass for bonus episodes and ad -free versions of all four shows in the Brainzon universe.
We'll be back with a new Smash Boom Best debate battle next week, Hamsters vs Goldfish.
Bye! Keep reading. Bye guys!
Ta -ta! Oh better than the rest, it's Smash Bros West, it's Smash Bros West. Nailed it.
No notes. That's the cherry on top.
Nailed it.
