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Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.
Okay, so what about the danger of assuming rationality in negotiation?
Because typically people approach negotiation and they're like, oh, you know, 1 plus 1 equals 2, everybody knows that.
And then those people always end up being frustrated.
So what role does rationality play to you?
You know, rationality, if this was a rational world, would we have the presidential candidates that we have today?
This was a rational world with the US government lockdown and going to sequester.
You know, if this was a rational world, would we need the United Nations?
You know, we could go on and on and on.
You have this kind of coaching them.
You really love p-carol.
I mean, it makes people feel better.
So we've done this enough.
I mean, why not apply this tactically?
Is it wrong to apply it tactically?
Is this nefarious in some way?
Yeah, only if you're trying to manipulate somebody into something that's bad for them.
You know, what one man's manipulation is another man's persuasion or another man's influence.
You see a beautiful girl, you tell her she's beautiful.
You're trying to manipulate her into going on a date with you.
You're trying to manipulate a beautiful woman into falling in love with you.
You see someone who you work with who's done a great job for your company.
And you say, man, great job.
You know, you're actually trying to manipulate them into feeling better about their efforts and doing it again.
So it's not that any of these tools are by definition wrong.
It's a pent-upon, you know, what you're trying to do with them.
See, that's fascinating because you are, in a sense, manipulating their emotions for your own purposes, but then again, like you said, it comes down to whether or not you're doing it in a way that's detrimental to them.
Right. And that's the kind of ethical line.
Right. Yeah, there's a very definite ethical line that I would draw in how I apply these skills.
You know, but sometimes people get really worried about because emotional intelligence is ridiculously powerful.
There was an article written not that long ago called the Dark Side of Emotional Intelligence because it can have a Dark Side when you understand how powerful it could be.
And a lot of times people say, I'm not sure you're worried about this.
And I say, have you got a smartphone?
Have you got an iPhone? Have you got a Blackberry, a droid?
Have you got a Samsung Galaxy?
Have you got any of these phones?
You know, reaching your pocket, pull out your smartphone.
Have you got one of those?
And everybody does. And I'll say, you know, there's some really bad people that use these.
Um, oh, but wait a minute, that didn't stop you from using your phone because somebody else is using it with bad intent.
No, it's just a tool. And it depends upon how you're using it.
It's up to you. It's up to your own integrity.
That's a brilliant example.
And I tell you, I think the emotional aspect of this is something that's overlooked for a lot of reasons.
One of them being that some people have fooled themselves into believing that, oh, emotions don't belong in the business world.
And so they're leaving one of the most powerful persuasive tools on the table because they believe that emotions don't belong.
It's all logic. Yeah, exactly.
And, you know, and the same guy who tell you that emotions don't belong, they'll tell you that you should be passionate about your company's mission.
You know, you should have a passion and purpose.
And, you know, wait a minute, aren't those synonyms?
Right. Emotion versus passion.
It's in the eye that beholder, isn't it?
Right. And one of the things I really liked about tactical empathy is that you didn't just stop there when it comes to identifying with people's emotions and getting deeper there.
You brought in mirroring, which I was a powerful tool that you were able to use to get deeper and get people to elaborate.
Can you tell them a little bit about that one?
You know, marrying is this ridiculously simple little tool that works wonders.
And it might be the closest thing to a Jedi mind trick that we've got.
You know, it's not your, the mirror you learned in your networking one-on-one session where they say mirror someone's body language or mirror their tonal voice or mirror their energy level.
That's, no, it's none of those things.
It's repeating the last one to three words of what someone has just said.
The last one to three words of what they've just said.
Yeah. Of what they've just said.
And those were examples of mirrors.
And it causes people to go on.
The connectors, the reward they clarify, they tell you more.
They feel encouraged. And if you don't do it naturally, you don't believe it till you try it.
And people take themselves hostage all the time.
They say, well, that's too wouldn't or that's too formulaic or, you know, that's too parrot-like.
Nobody's going to like it.
So I'm not going to try it.
You're taking yourself hostage by beating yourself like that.
And when we teach it, it's actually one of the first skills we teach because it feels so awkward until you know how it works.
And people love it. Once they catch on, they absolutely love it.
They do it all the time. Yeah.
It's so powerful and so simple to execute.
And I think one of the things that you mentioned in the book that is one of the keys to mirroring effectively was being patient and comfortable in the three to four seconds of silence that happens after you mirror.
Right. Right. Exactly.
You know, in three seconds can feel like an eternity.
And people are horrified.
I would say fully half of us are horrified to shut up and let that three seconds pass and even be silent until the other person speaks.
I mean, effective pauses are named that for a reason.
They can be powerful tools if you can just learn.
Please be still for three seconds.
Right. William, I know you have a really good story about maintaining your equipment.
And it under arrests and staying cool under pressure.
Can you tell the audience about the difficult conversation you had with Hugo Shavitz?
Sure. It was twenty years ago.
There were a million people on the streets of the capital of Venezuela, Caracas, demanding the immediate resignation downfall of President Hugo Shavitz.
There were a million people on the street supporting him.
This was breaking out before armoring themselves or rumors, civil war was in the offing.
And former president Jimmy Carter asked me if I would go down there and just listen and see what I could.
And so in the course of that, I had a number of meetings with President Shavitz.
One of the leaders on the other side, I grew up to and he leaned very close to my face.
I could feel his, you know, I could smell it.
He was breath, you know.
And he proceeded to shout at me for approximately thirty minutes.
And you know, I was kind of stunned.
I wasn't expecting this.
You know, I was feeling a little embarrassed in front of the entire dress down.
I was seeing all this work I've been doing for months down the drain.
You know, going through this whole internal thought process and feelings going.
Right in mind, at once said to me, he said, William, when you're a tough situation, pinch the palm of your hand.
And I said, if not, why would I pinch the palm of my hand?
He said, because that will give you temporary pain to keep you alert.
Whatever reason, that was my way of going to the balcony was pinching the palm of my hand.
So that I could then, when you go to the balcony, the balcony is that place of common perspective.
We all have inside of ourselves.
We have to access it where you can keep your eyes on the prize.
And what was the prize here?
I could ask myself the fundamental question, what do I want here?
It's like, oh, and you know, my goal is to try and calm the situation.
And then I could further ask myself, because I was preparing, you know, my defenses, you know, as we do, you know, what are you going to say and respond to all these attacks?
And I said to myself, is it really going to advance things if I get into an argument with the president?
Is it his way? And I could say no.
So then I put my tongue and I listened and having paid attention to myself at my own feelings for a moment in that those little moments of silence that you're talking about, Kwame.
I just took those little moments of silence to pay attention.
My nervous system subbed a little bit.
And I was able to listen to him.
I like the balcony. It was watching it as if it was a play unfolding, you know, and, and, and is he trying to impress his, his cabinet?
Why is he doing this? And just, he bring curiosity.
Why not just give everyone a break, a perego on Spanish, you know, a truce for three weeks where it's a lot of people enjoy the holidays of their families, come back in January, maybe everybody will be in a better mood to listen.
Well, he looks at me, the moment of silence.
He says, you know what? That's an excellent idea.
I'm going to propose that my next speech and he collapsed, I'm back.
So, you know, his mood is completely shifted and when I've learned then and there or realized what was dramatically is at the greatest power that we have negotiation is the power not to react.
It's too paused. It's to go to the balcony.
The best way to start a negotiation is to stop.
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Hey, I'm Michael Covnet, host of the Next Big Idea Daily.
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There's nothing wrong with that.
In fact, it is a way that you can find a win-win agreement.
If you know when you start to identify what it is, it's important to the other side.
That's how you find clues for answering the question, what constitutes a win-win?
Absolutely. If you say to me, I add I'll do X for you if you do Y for me, let me be the optimum agreement for us.
That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.
Would you suggest being explicit about the fact that this concession is contingent upon receiving something in return?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
If you say to me, I want the following concession from you.
What I have to say to you is, if I give you that concession, will you give me such concession so you make a trial close out of it?
I love that. That's a brilliant point.
That is a brilliant point because this is something that I have a lot of negotiators struggle with.
When it comes to the horse trading aspect of it, when we're going back and forth making concessions and trying to make these deals, how to do it in a way that doesn't concede too much value.
See, if you don't do that, if you don't say, if I give you this, will you give me that?
If you don't do that, you're really negotiating against yourself.
If I ask you for a concession and you say, okay, you can have this concession.
So what am I going to do now?
I want to ask you for another concession and another concession.
But as soon as you say to me, wait a minute, if I give you this concession, will you give me that concession?
Now you're getting something out of it and you're preventing me from ramping up and asking you for all kinds of things.
Exactly. Exactly. And also, if you can do this correctly and implement a little bit of creativity in the process, giving a concession doesn't necessarily mean that you're losing value.
It could be something that simply creates value for the other side without causing much damage to your position.
Well, there we have to get into a definition of what a concession is and how a concession should be made.
The purpose of a concession is to give a sense of satisfaction to the other party.
So it might not even be a significant concession that you make.
It might be something really small, but if they have a sense of satisfaction, it will make them feel that they are a winner in the negotiation.
Right. Oh, this is great.
And this brings up another point that people ask about when it comes to apologies in negotiation.
Because like you said, it gives people a sense of satisfaction.
So what is your take on apologizing in a negotiation if the other side feels as though a mistake was made or it feels as though they've been slided in some way?
Well, it's a double-edged sword.
I mean, if you make a made a mistake, I think it's important to fess out.
But I also believe that very often people will be overly apologetic and say, oh, I'm so sorry.
I wish I could do that. I can't.
Now you have to show confidence in your position.
You have to behave in a way that what you're doing makes sense.
So you can't always be apologizing.
It's one thing. It's one thing if you make a mistake.
But otherwise, if you're a seller, for example, you don't want to apologize for your price.
You don't want to say, gee, I know my price is too high.
I'm sorry. Now forget that.
Your price is not too high.
You're not sorry. What you want to do is justify it.
Say, this is the reason why my price is high.
Right. Hey, listeners.
I have a quick question.
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Now you notice the head tilt there, the inquisitiveness in which I actually conveyed my sentiments also.
So by saying something along the lines of your best offer, your soliciting.
Then the person that emitted that first gesture to continue to give you more insight, to give you more input from which you can then even slightly shift your perspective of how you present yourself from that point on.
Let's take it a step further and the person said, that's absolutely my best offer.
Now you notice the synchronization with the words and the finger coming down on the words I was pronouncing that emphasis on that's my best offer.
You may also notice the deepening of my voice tonality as I said that.
That gesture also indicates a more seriousness now for that particular individual that speaking those words per his mindset, his or her mindset, and the position in which that if we are not paying attention to body language, or if we're on the phone or trying to negotiate be an email, we're not even privy to being able to read the body language.
We're missing out on an incredible amount of information that can help us in the negotiation.
Now see, Quarming, you just shined again and showed why you're such an excellent negotiator too.
That was a great synopsis for sure.
There is definitely value ad as you highlight it and being able to read body language.
And I'll add nonverbal communications because you spoke about being on the phone and not being able to see the gestures that someone may emit.
You can hear some of them though in the way that they speak.
Someone just presented an offer to you and the person said, I can do that at $100,000.
That's different from I can do that at $100,000, which is even more different than I can do that at $100,000.
Now the same words were spoken, but three different sentiments were conveyed via the tonality and pace at which someone emitted those words.
And thus if you observe even how they say something when you can't see someone's body language gestures, you can still listen to their nonverbal cues and hear what's actually not seen.
And gather that as additional information from which you can reposition your offer or counter-offer.
This is so cool. Because I think there's an element that could be almost overwhelming because you're saying, oh, wait a second, because I'm here talking to you speaking English.
Okay, that's one thing that's occurring.
But then the same words delivered in different ways mean completely different things.
And then when we blend tonality with the body language, that's an additional thing for us to read.
And so again, it can feel overwhelming to say, oh my.
You can see yourself throughout the negotiation, if by chance something occurs that you at plan four or did not plan for, because to the degree that you are prepared, you will more likely be able to reach the outcome that you're seeking from the negotiation.
So let's talk about preparation if you wish.
And preparing for a negotiation, again, depend upon to what degree it's worth it.
I have actually had clients that have hired private investigators together additional information gone through social media channels to position how you the negotiator wanted that entity to be perceived by the other parties that may have had a state that were not necessarily at the negotiation table such that they've placed that individual in a particular
position before the negotiation even starts.
And doing that again allows the plans that one can then implement to become more successful or not.
So there's a lot that goes into the negotiation.
And again, dependent upon how valuable the outcome is to you, you should take painstaking efforts to initially figure out who it is you're negotiating with, what are their triggers, what triggers you might want to invoke in them to get them to do certain things.
And how it is that you're going to get back on track for where you thought you'd be at any one point in time in the negotiation to make sure that you continue down the path you've set it for.
Today we're really celebrating the third edition of your best-selling book, Difficult Conversations.
Can you tell us about that?
Thank you for asking about it because it's been a project that has been in process for a few years, in fact, and it's probably a little bit overdue.
So difficult conversations came out in 1999.
We issued a second edition is that we also really re-examined two kinds of things.
One is what are the limits to this approach?
Like when doesn't it make sense to listen to someone else and understand, work to understand their perspective perhaps?
And then the second was that we spent six months pretty intensively working, trying to figure out what we think about power and the role of power in difficult conversations.
So we totally re-wrote, chat questions, I think it's four and five at the back of the book, which are all about power.
And we probably wrote 300 pages worth for the 10 pages that made it into the book as we tried to figure out what we thought.
So that a little bit of a walking tour through the third edition.
Incredible. Okay, there's so much to explore here.
And I think for me one of the most fascinating things is the fact that this was really a groundbreaking piece of literature when it came out and to see that we have stuck to it and then continued to hone it and change it and tweak it.
That's exciting for me because it shows a lot of depth and nuance but still within the same parameters of the initial book.
And so that gives us a lot of room for exploration.
And since you spoke about blame versus contribution, I think we should just go ahead and start there because that can just understanding that concept alone before even getting into the skills can completely change relationships and interactions.
So can you give us a bit of background there?
Yeah, you bet. So probably one thing I should say is that one of the key insights that we had while working on the book was that in order to understand a difficult conversation, you've got to look at what people are really having this problem.
And so blame is a feature either implicitly.
We don't quite say it, but it's quite clear that I think that you are the problem, not me, or sometimes explicitly.
Like look, you screwed this up and you're the one who needs to fix it.
And it's not always, it's often pointed at the other person, but it's not always pointed at the other person.
It's not actually easier if we feel like this is all our fault and we feel guilty for the problem.
So so the usual advice I think around blame is well, gosh, blame usually isn't helpful, right?
It chills conversation.
It makes people defensive.
In organizations, if you've ever lived in what you would describe as a blaming culture, it means it's really hard on relationships and trust.
Like do I trust you're not going to throw me into the bus if this doesn't work?
It means people are reluctant to take risks.
It also like people spend so much time trying to avoid the blame and talk about whose fault it is, rather than just fixing the problem.
So it's a huge drain on morale and productivity.
So great. We all we all would agree with that from experience.
The usual advice is, okay, just don't blame people.
And you know, that seems like good advice.
But the problem is that it's still in our internal voices.
So we end up having these crazy conversations where it's like, well, you know, I'm not saying this is a base fault, but like if you could not scream that up next time, that be helpful.
So nobody's really fooled.
So anyway, what do you do instead?
I think that the key is rather than trying to sidestep blame to channel that energy into something more constructive.
And that's what we refer to in the book as joint contribution.
Assuming it's not just either your fault or my fault, or will agree to blame somebody not in the room.
Because those guys is fault, they're the ones who dropped the ball.
But instead to assume almost every problem has been produced by things that each of us did or didn't do.
And so it's we each contributed to where we are today.
Even if my contribution is, you know, I could kind of see this coming and I probably should have dealt with it earlier, but I was just too busy.
So it's not necessarily did something wrong, the fact that I have avoided this or not addressed it until now doesn't mean I did something wrong, but it is part of why it has festered for a while and now it's worse than it was last week or last month.
And that if we can shift our mindset just to understanding, boy, what are we each contribute to where we're at today?
That's the thing that actually tells us, well, what would we have to change if we want to not make the same mistake or be in the same place?
Or what do we each need to change if we're going to actually improve the way we're handling this?
And so it's aimed not at finger pointing and punishment, which is the underlying underpinnings of blame, but instead assuming we should do things that may not be blameworthy, they might have been perfectly reasonable, but now looking back, we realize they didn't help.
And the point of this conversation is to try to figure out how to fix it.
Oh, my goodness. This is great.
And what I love about this is how practical it is, number one, because we can recognize how we can tie the theory to practicality in a meaningful way in the conversation.
And then what I realize is that a lot of times, not just in negotiation, but also in life, we get advice from people that essentially comes down to be less human.
Because think about it.
Yeah. Yeah. So we're saying, hey, don't blame people, but the internal voice is still going to be blaming.
And then that subconscious drive will direct the conversation in a way that will be trying to escape blame and still assign blame without seeming as if we're blaming.
But what we're doing is we're recognizing, all right, this negotiation advice is going to go to humans.
So let's embrace that humanity, recognize that we will still have this energy channeled in this direction.
Now let's channel that energy in a productive way.
Yeah. And I think in a way that has a purpose that we both buy and consign on to.
Because sometimes my purpose in having the conversation is like, I really need to confront you and let you know what you're screwing up because somebody needs to tell you that you're the problem or what ways you're the problem.
And that's not really a conversation.
You're going to be that interested in joining.
So it's no wonder I'm predicting it's not going to go well because I am actually, my purpose is not one that is likely to be successful.
My purpose is to tell you off, tell you what's what and what's true or get you to change.
And I'm actually not in control of any of those things.
Maybe you are in control of those things.
So I'm kind of setting myself up to fail.
Yeah. Absolutely. And now let's say we have a listener who this is new for them and they say, all right, Sheila, I'm on board now.
All right, I'm going to shift from blame to contribution.
But the person who I'm talking to unfortunately hasn't read the book and they haven't listened to this episode and they are blaming me all the time.
And so how do I change that dynamic when it seems like the other person doesn't want to play by the same rules?
Yeah. Well, so the first thing I would say is it's clear that we both know some of the same people.
And you're right to identify that the fact that I can't control the other person also means it feels really risky to take this whole contribution approach.
And so counterintuitively, our advice is actually, if you can see what you have contributed to the problem looking back, taking responsibility and owning your contribution to the problem early and often in the conversation is actually good advice.
Why is it good advice? It's not without risks just to be clear.
But first of all, it's relatively rare that the other person is not clear on what you have contributed to the problem.
Like they actually have a list of things that you have contributed to the problem.
And so in many cases, it's not that you're telling them something they don't already know.
What you're telling them is I actually also know that.
So I might start the conversation by saying, I think we probably should have had this conversation a while ago.
And I've just been a little bit distracted.
So I just want to mention that I do think we're a little bit behind the eight ball and I'm partly responsible for that.
Right, I wish I had said something when I saw you at the conference last year because I had a sense that this may be an issue, but I just didn't think to mention it to you.
So whatever I'm doing, I'm naming, hey, there's some things looking back that I wish I had done differently.
The reason that that matters is that I am sending you a super clear signal that this is not a conversation about blame.
I am inviting you to trust me.
In the research, one of the fastest ways to create trust is to do what's called making a statement against interest, which I'm sure you know.
So if I admit something or say something that it otherwise wouldn't be in my interest to share, I'm signaling that I'm being candid and truthful.
And then the third is that the other big, reliable dynamic in the research is reciprocity.
If I attack you, you're going to attack me back.
If I own my contribution, I'm making it at least a little more likely that you're going to be willing to own yours.
And you may not take that invitation in the first round, but that doesn't have to be the end of the conversation.
In other words, let's imagine I own my contribution and you say, well, I'm just relieved to hear that you say that you think this is all your fault because I would agree with that.
And then I can say, look, I do have some things I wish I had done differently.
I don't think I can fix this by myself.
So if you're not willing to also look at some things that I think would have to change if we're going to go forward and fix this problem, I fear that we're going to be stuck.
So I don't have to accept that you keep all the blame on me.
And that actually gives me a way to mitigate that risk because I'm not agreeing with that.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
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