Ready? This is episode 420, featuring a coaching call with a runner named Dan on how he improved from 338 to 308 in the marathon. and what it would take to chop another 30 minutes off that time.
Welcome to the Strength Running Podcast.
We surround you with the We'll see you next time. give you the best guidance possible to take your running to the next level.
I'm your host coach Jason Fitzgerald. I'm a former cross-country and track athlete for Connecticut College.
I've been coaching runners since 2010, and I used to write for Trail Runner Magazine and Runner's World.
Today, I'm the head coach of Strength Running, host of this podcast, and I work with a small handful of startups in the running space.
You can learn more about me and strength running at strengthrunning.com.
It's a big day for me. I am getting ready for a big mountain adventure tomorrow.
I'm hiking the four loop pass from Aspen, Colorado, which is a 27 mile hike over four different passes at pretty high altitude.
I'm really excited about it, but to be honest, I'm also a little nervous for what's going to be a 12 to 14 hour day on my feet.
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And now without further delay, please enjoy this coaching call with Dan about how to create a massive marathon breakthrough.
All right, here we go. Dan, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for having me, Jason. Really excited for this.
Really happy to be here. Yeah, we're doing something fun today.
We are going to do almost like a little bit of a hybrid coaching call episode and then... talk a little bit more generally about massive marathon breakthroughs.
Because you actually sent me an email You're curious about what it might take to actually just take a huge amount of time off of your marathon.
And I know you have already done that. You have gone from 3.38. to a 308 marathon.
But now you're curious, what might it take to get down to 230 or 240?
So that's really what our conversation is going to be all about today.
Maybe we can start with just a little bit about who you are, how long you've been running, a couple details about you as a runner, Dan.
Yeah, so I got into running as an adult, so I'm 32 years old now and I got into running in 2021. kind of in COVID where I live I'm up in Canada and they shut down all the gyms throughout COVID and so I kind of decided to take up running kind of at that point.
And I did my first, um, I did my, yeah, I did a 75 hard challenge, which If you don't know, it's the discipline challenge basically where you do for 75 consecutive days You drink a gallon of water, you read 10 pages in a book, you stick to a diet of your choosing, no alcohol.
And then you do two 45-minute workouts a day.
One has to be outside. But because... Uh, the gyms were all closed in my area.
That's when I decided to pick up running and.
Took me about two months before I kind of started to enjoy running.
I really hated it for the first, uh, for the first while.
Uh, in retrospect is probably because I was, you know, now that I know a little bit more, I was probably running too fast and too frequently and too long, all of the, uh, classic you know, beginner mistakes.
But by the end, I really, you know, started to enjoy it.
So near the end, then my wife arranged a unofficial half marathon.
All the races were again canceled within our area.
So she did an unofficial one. She kind of mapped out the area. where I kind of took a stab at, you know, my first half marathon.
As soon as I finished, then I was like, okay, a marathon is going to be on the horizon for me.
Uh, at which point I ran my first official full marathon in June of 2022. ran a four-hour and 45-minute marathon, and it was a beast, and it was...
You know, I did all the classic mistakes of hitting the wall and, you know, under training and everything, but, uh, you know, I completed it and that's, that's really what I cared about.
I do think I was in better shape than kind of the time gave me credit for because the race was 30 degrees Celsius when it started at 7 AM.
Uh, and it was by the end of the race, it was.
It was in the high 30s Celsius, which I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit.
That is the 86 degrees. So that is pretty warm.
Yeah, yeah. So I think I was a little bit more fit than the 445, but just wasn't acclimated to the heat and wasn't used to that.
Yeah. So then after that marathon, I was kind of, you know, a little bit done with running at that point.
I didn't, I didn't really understand the nuance of, of Uh, nutrition and proper training and that sort of thing.
So I found I was just always tired and I would go for a long run and I would need to like lay on the couch for two hours after my long run.
And I just wasn't doing the training properly.
Fast forward to... Yeah, so I took some time off at that point.
Fast forward to... 2024, so last year, then I kind of got back into running, got back into it, wanted to take another stab. at the marathon.
And so then at that point, I started training in January. listening to more podcasts, reading more books, kind of taking it a little bit more seriously at that point.
And then in June of 2024, that's where I ran the 338 marathon.
And then, and I was kind of doing things a little bit better at that point.
So as soon as I finished that marathon, I kept on training.
I was much more motivated to continue doing running and kind of keep up with things.
And so I then trained Uh, pretty good for a half marathon in the fall of 2024.
Where I brought my time down to is one 27 and change basically for a half marathon.
And I was extremely excited about that. That was a big step forward for me.
You should. That's a great time, Dan. Yeah.
And then kind of over winter, this last winter, then kept up with my base kind of over the wintertime.
And then I think I was averaging 60 to 70 kilometers a week, which would be kind of in that 40 mile range, you know, kind of in that range.
Yes, that's when I started my marathon block for, again, a June of 2025 marathon where I brought that down to a 308.
There we go, there's the couple year history.
Now, did you do much running between that marathon in 2022
And then when you started training for your second marathon in 2024.
So that's like a year and a half break right there.
Yeah, very little, maybe one or two runs a month if we're being generous. but I basically took a full year off.
I would love to compare what you did for the 338 program Marathon compared with what you did for the 308 Marathon.
Now, obviously you could probably do the same training twice in a row and still improve.
And there's not really too much there. to actually learn from other than the fact that consistent training is going to result in gradual improvement over time.
But was there any major differences between the training cycles between those two marathons?
Because the obvious outcome, 338 versus 308, It's huge.
I mean, that's a 30-minute difference. That's more than a minute per mile.
Yeah, I can tell you almost exactly what I did differently.
For my first and second marathon, so the four hour and then the 3.38, I followed Run With Hal.
Like Hal Higdon has a, has an app and a training plan.
So I followed his, I think I did intermediate one. for the 338 plan.
And then for the 308, then I bumped up to the fifth 1855 plan.
So 18 weeks later. peaking at 55 miles, which I did a little bit modified.
I added on a little bit extra onto that one.
And so some of the classics of, There's more speed work involved in that, a more dedicated long run with some marathon pace miles in there.
Those would kind of be some of the key added volume as well to begin with.
1855 plan. This is an 18 week plan that peaks at 55 miles a week.
What was your peak mileage for the 338 marathon?
For the three 38 marathon, most of my weeks were in the 60 to 70 kilometer range. which had one week peaking at 95 and one week at 88.
But for the most part, 60, I would say it was the average 60 kilometers.
Okay, 60 kilometers, we're talking about a little over 40 miles a week for our US listeners.
And then you bump that up to 55 miles a week, which is about...
88 kilometers or so per week. So definitely had higher peaks there. the second time around, even though some of your peaks, the first training cycle, were as high as that.
But obviously, you were likely... much more consistent with the higher volumes the second time around.
Is that right? Yeah, that's right. I think the first time around, it was kind of like, you know, I'd do an 88 kilometer run or a kilometer a week.
So like, you know, 50, 55 miles one week.
And then the next week would be like 40 miles, you know, I'd miss one or two key runs.
And it was kind of like that zigzag up and down for the 308.
And I was very consistent. That's exactly right. love to talk a little more about the long runs, because you mentioned you started doing a little bit more of a dedicated long run.
I'd love to know just a little bit of the differences between what you did in the first training cycle and then the second training cycle when it came to the long run.
So yeah, so this is actually where I'd love to pick your brain on it because as I kind of got more into running, scheduling, making time for the long run is something that you kind of have to work with in your schedule.
So for the three 38 marathon, I had a hard time of carving out two hours, two and a half hours for a dedicated long run.
I've. two young kids at home. So I wanted to spend, you know, just working with kids and working kids, part of me, uh, fitting in the long run can be difficult.
So I was often splitting. Uh, the marathon and either doing a double or adding in an additional day.
So I was kind of, I was, you know, instead of doing a.
30 kilometer run, I would do a 20 kilometer one run in the morning and then a 10 kilometer run in the evening, that sort of thing.
Whereas for the 308 tonight, it was, I did all in one chunk.
I make sure to kind of prioritize getting it all in one.
So I would love to hear from you. Like, how does the, adaptation kind of differ if you're splitting it versus having it all in one chunk.
Yeah, this is a really good question. And a lot of the times I am a little bit agnostic on whether or not to split long runs for runners, like if you have that 30 kilometer run, should you split it into 20 in the morning and 10 kilometers in the evening?
For anyone training for like a half marathon or longer, I think it's in their best interests to do the long run as one long run. because that's basically what you're training for.
You're training for one long race. And so you've gotta have that one very specific training session where That is the physiological metric that you're training, is your body's ability to be on your feet for many hours, your body's ability to... use fuel appropriately for such a long time.
Even some of the logistical things like how do I plan my fueling for a two and a half hour run That's very different than how you plan your fueling for two hour and 15 minute runs.
You know, that's a lot easier. And so part of it is just the logistical planning of what do you bring with you?
When do you eat it? How much do you eat?
All those different things. So for anyone training for a half or longer, I say, let's keep the long run maintained as one single run.
Because you're going to get more aerobic development from that run, a little bit more aerobic fitness.
You're going to just gain more endurance over time if you're not splitting it up. splitting it up does make it a little bit easier.
You get that extra recovery. You can fuel and hydrate in between the double.
So it makes it a little bit easier to do.
Usually, if you're looking at, say, the training plan of an elite-level marathoner, they might double four or five days a week.
But the way that they're doing it is almost designed to make it easier.
They're not doubling on a long run day. That is one long run.
But they might want to get in 14 miles in one day.
And it's easier just to split that up and to maybe... eight in the morning with some quality and then easy six in the afternoon.
Whereas if you were to do that whole thing as you know, one 14 mile run, That's your medium long run for the week.
They might not want to do that day after day after day.
And there's some interesting research showing that you get like a human growth hormone stimulus when you go for a run.
And so by going for two runs in a day, you get that little bit of extra hit of growth hormone, which might be beneficial in the long term from an adaptation perspective.
But, you know, the Cliff Notes answer to this is if you're training for a long race, let's not split up the long run.
Whereas if you're training for let's say a 5K or even a 10K, it makes a little bit more sense to split up the long run if you are strapped for time.
I do think there's value in getting in that one long run as one individual training session, even if you are training for something as short as say the 5k.
But if you have to split it up every once in a while, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Dan, the other thing that I'd love to know a little bit more about are the workouts.
I know you did more workouts for the 308 marathon, but was there a substantial difference in the intensity of the workouts, maybe the duration of those workouts, You know, maybe the frequency, maybe the second time around you did two workouts a week compared to one.
I'd love to know the high level differences between the two cycles.
Yeah, so for my 338 marathon, I wasn't really doing a ton of workouts.
I was kind of more so doing volume. I didn't really understand the benefits of workouts or, you know, why running at certain paces mattered.
I was kind of just running to hit the volume that you know, the plan kind of prescribed.
If I was feeling tired and I didn't want to go do hill strides, I didn't think that it was that big of a deal.
I just didn't know. I didn't have the knowledge.
Whereas for my 308, then I'd kind of learned enough in that span of time that, okay, running at a dedicated hard pace, uh, really mattered.
So I was often doing, uh, one workout a week plus one long run, which had some the long run often had some marathon pace miles in there.
It varied depending on the week, but for all intents and purposes, there would have been basically two workouts a week.
Okay, so pretty standard, except for the first training cycle where it's not very standard to not do any workouts.
So... I think I understand the major differences between the two cycles, both from a volume... but also workout and long run perspective.
And I'd love to hear from you. Why do you think you improved by so much in a single year in the marathon?
I think it was the, the workouts really made a huge difference.
Adding in either track workouts or half marathon paced tempo or threshold workouts really made a huge difference in fitness.
I was really, I think after my three 38 marathon, then I, I kept up running, so I didn't take, you know, two months off before another build, you know, I kind of, I took like a recovery block, but, um, post marathon, but then I kind of got right back into, into training.
I did do like a specific half marathon block going into the fall of 2024, where I got that one 27 half marathon.
And I think that's where I kind of built in quite a bit of speed that I wasn't used to doing beforehand, which I think that's where I built in some speed and then there's kind of just building in a little bit more endurance kind of after that, at that point.
Yeah, I think that's a really good reflection.
You know, I think everything that you said is true.
You know, you're the second time, or technically your third marathon, but... the second training cycle here that we're discussing, you did a lot more things right than the first time around that obviously resulted in such a better finish time.
From my mind, the number one most important thing that you did is, you didn't go from sort of couch to marathon.
You had that season before the season, which is this concept I love talking about, which is, you know, if you want to have a big breakthrough in the marathon, you can't go from couch to marathon, or you can't just go from, you know, mediocre season where you're just kind of piddling around at 30 kilometers a week, you kind of have to have a good season where you're driving solid physiological changes and adaptations.
You did that with the speed work, with the half marathon PR.
I mean, that 87-minute half... time i think is is an amazing time that was likely a breakthrough for you and it paved the way for that incredible marathon performance that you then had in June of 2025.
So that's number one, you had a season before the season.
So for anyone listening, if you wanna have a breakthrough performance, whether it's the marathon or any other race, the season that comes before, I think, sets the stage for what you are then capable of doing. in the season that we're now talking about, which might be a marathon season, but it could be any season.
So really pay attention to the season before the season, Which I guess is just a way of saying, let's be consistent with our training.
You know, like my college coach loved to tell us all the time, it's a lifestyle.
It's not just a sport that you can participate in for six months out of the year because you're never going to progress.
You're always going to be kind of starting from scratch and building from that ground zero.
The other thing that I think you did really well is it seemed like you were a lot more consistent with almost everything.
Number one, your volume was not necessarily higher at the peak, but you just... consistently did those weeks, week after week after week after week. reminds me of what I like to say about, you know, like a high mileage week, you know, like 80 or 90 kilometer week, you know, what's better than a 90 kilometer week? two 90-kilometer weeks.
Let's just keep stressing the body so that we keep getting those adaptations.
So you ran more and you were consistent with more.
That obviously played a big role in your dramatic improvement. you also started doing more speed work.
Not only did you have that season before the season that expose you to speed work that literally made you faster so that you were a faster runner going into marathon season. you then were able to layer on even more faster workouts during your marathon cycle, which kind of have this nice symbiotic relationship between you know your long runs and your overall mileage and it really helps elevate your total performances Yeah, so those are the big things.
I mean, you planned ahead. You had a great season ahead of time.
You ran more consistently. You actually did speed workouts consistently.
The final thing is perhaps... your long runs.
And I think you just executed much better long runs the second time around.
And since we're talking about the marathon, what's the most important thing for the marathon?
Overall mileage and long runs. And both of those were a lot better.
I would also say speed is really important with the marathon.
It's not that you have to do a lot of speed work to be a good marathoner.
But you do have to be a fast runner to then run a fast marathon.
And so by running that 87-minute half marathon...
You demonstrated your abilities as a fast runner, carried that fitness into marathon season, and ended up reaping the rewards from that. a lot of things that you did right there.
And I think a lot of it has to come down to the fact that you sort of just knew a little bit more about the training process and what to do and all that.
And I think... That's almost the entire point of this podcast.
One of the things I love saying is knowledge is a competitive advantage. learn more about the sport, learn more about how you individually respond to the different training strategies and things that we talk about.
And then you can go and implement that for yourself and you're going to be a lot better.
And you clearly are a lot better than you were just a year ago, Dan.
Yeah, no, I talk a lot of that up to finding your podcast and listening to lots of the back episodes. you know, from strength running as well, which I will add that I did add in like a strength routine in 2024 after my 338 marathon as well.
So then I started adding in lots of lower body strength workouts after that too.
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Yeah, that's great. I think the second part of our conversation probably will feature a little bit more chat about strength training because Now I want to talk about, like, what if you want to do that again?
What if you now you now you want to. You want to beat my time.
You want to run 238, take another 30 minutes off your marathon time.
The good news is that based on your background, I still think you have a tremendous amount of improvement left in the marathon.
So... you're not even close to plateauing just yet.
The bad news is that it's not going to be as easy as this last time where you just took 30 minutes off your marathon time, it gets harder the faster you get. you're likely going to have to work even harder to take off less time.
And hopefully that doesn't discourage you.
I remember working three years to take two seconds off of a 5k time you know it's just kind of the way the way things go but So let's talk about some of the strategies that I think are really helpful long term.
Right. Like one of the things that you did right from cycle one to cycle two, that's going to be important. for this other big project of another massive improvement is continuing to run a lot of miles.
I think trying to gradually increase that peak mileage week of each training cycle, I think is a good goal.
Maybe getting five to 10 kilometers higher season to season.
I think it does depend a little bit on how you felt at around 90 kilometers a week.
Some runners... feel like they're about to break when they're having these sorts of big mileage weeks.
I know for me, when I ran about 90 miles per week, I just felt like I was going to break at all times.
And so it was just this delicate balancing act of running the mileage, but also trying to keep yourself healthy and trying not to get So like, how did you feel running 80, 90 kilometers a week?
Was it something that... you know, kind of took over your life and you were tired all the time and your body was constantly sore and achy with these little, you know, niggles from time to time or Was it fairly manageable?
I would say it was fairly manageable for sure.
Yeah, I didn't feel a ton of fatigue. I'd say lately I've been much better at making sure my easy runs are like super easy so that I can kind of recover nicely on those.
But yeah, lately, the last couple of weeks, I've been hitting upwards of 100 kilometers, which has been really nice.
Um, yeah, I've been feeling overall really good with that.
That's also one where I feel like I've gotten much better with my nutrition. being much more purposeful with eating and fueling during the daytime, not just during my runs. surrounding my workouts with, you know, with carbs beforehand and carbs afterwards, you know, really prioritizing having carbs for breakfast and kind of throughout my day as well as there's I feel like that's helped a ton with recovery.
Yeah, I think the more you run, the more you realize that you have to then start paying attention to way more other things.
So if you're running 20 kilometers a week, you can get away with a lot. just because I don't think the stress level is that high, but a hundred kilometers a week, the stress level is obviously a lot higher.
And so you have to really dial in your nutrition, your sleep, you know, your stress levels.
You kind of have to think about all these other things, you know, recovery strategies, things like that.
You know, one thing that we briefly mentioned, you said that you started a strength training routine recently for the last training cycle.
I think that becomes more and more important when your training gets more and more advanced.
Let's think of strength training as... building armor around yourself that protects you from the stresses of running.
So if you're not running a lot or you're not running any workouts, Honestly, you may not even need to strength train purely from the perspective of keeping you healthy.
But when you're running 100 kilometers a week, when you start doing substantial long runs and workouts, it just becomes more important to keep you healthy, to give you that dose of growth hormone and testosterone that you get after a heavy weightlifting session compared with kind of the catabolic effects of running that just make you more tired.
And it's a very one-dimensional type of fitness.
And so being a little bit more holistic a little bit more well-rounded is going to really help you as you get into the more advanced levels of training so let's make sure we're doing plenty of strength training, which then will allow additional training.
So it sort of unlocks more capacity for more training.
Just like if you were to run 150 kilometers a week you would be unlocking all of this new aerobic fitness and endurance, and you'd likely have a giant marathon PR.
But before you can do that, we first have to build the body that can withstand much higher mileage and longer workouts and more frequent workouts and things like that.
And that starts with strength training. Once you've done the strength training, then you can start worrying about the higher mileage levels.
I'm very encouraged by the fact that 90 kilometers a week Wasn't that stressful for you and you're already up at a hundred still feeling pretty good.
So, you know, my hunch is that the next time you're in peak training for a marathon. you might be able to continue reaching a little bit.
Don't get too greedy. You're already kind of in that PR territory in terms of overall weekly mileage. you'll still improve you kinda just have to answer the question like how much do I want to improve you know you can keep you know, pushing the ball down the hill a little bit, you can keep pushing the envelope.
But if you reach too much, you are flirting with an injury.
So just keep that in mind. Okay. Yeah, that's very good to know.
How do you think about structuring strength training into a week in terms of Whether you do like a dedicated, uh, 45 minute to an hour in the gym, you know, heavyweights, or you do more frequent bite-sized uh you know core stability home body workouts how do you think of the difference between the two of those Yeah, I think both are really important and they kind of accomplish two different goals for runners.
And if we were to consider an ideal or best case scenario, you'd have both in your program.
I think you would have two dedicated days in the gym, somewhere between 30 and 60 minutes.
I think if every workout was 60 minutes, that might be a little bit too long.
Some of them just don't have to be that long.
We're not bodybuilders. We don't have to spend that much time in the gym. but two dedicated, pure weightlifting days where we're working on strength, we're working on power.
The other days that you're running, I do like it when you sandwich a run in between that dynamic warm-up and some kind of post-run. core or strength workout.
And here is where you're doing the body weight work You're using a band maybe or a medicine ball.
You're not doing, you know, what I would call quote-unquote weightlifting, right?
But you're doing some type of strength work that's relatively low intensity.
And, you know, if you use any of the routines that I've put together, like the ITV rehab routine, the ballista routine, the gauntlet plank workout, all these different body weight routines, like the standard core routine and, they're all 10 to 20 minute routines that, you know, you're either using body weight or you're using like a, a minor implement like a band and,
And the goal here is to keep you healthy.
Yes, we're gonna get a little stronger. We're gonna work on some of the smaller muscles that are important for runners.
If you have ever been injured and you went to the physical therapist's office, You're probably familiar with a lot of these exercises.
They form a lot of the treatment approaches for many common running injuries.
And so we're instead just going to be doing it healthy as prehab rather than rehab.
And so that's the general approach. Let's spend two days in the gym.
But then all the other days that you're running, let's say you're running five days a week, you got your two gym days, and then you got three other days that you're running, you're gonna be doing some kind of post-run core strength workout.
It doesn't take very long. It's not terribly difficult, but it does help you get a little stronger.
It does help you just feel better after a run.
Instead of just going from run to shower to work and then you kind of just feel kind of tight the rest of the day and your legs feel maybe a little sore, a little tired, engaging in some other exercises where you're experiencing new ranges of motion, you're going through these different planes of motion and things like that, you just loosen up better and you feel better throughout the day.
And I think there's some value in that subjective feeling of just feeling better throughout the day, especially when you're training really hard.
Because if you're training hard and you're just kind of feeling beat down and sore and tired and your legs just kind of feel trashed every day, that's not the place that you want to be.
And it's indicative that you might be starting to flirt with a potential injury.
So that's kind of how I would think about ideal strength training.
And The body weight work can almost remain the same throughout the entire season.
It's almost like maintenance work where Whereas ideally, the strength training in the gym, the actual weightlifting, this will progress and change and evolve over time so that it's meeting many of the similar goals that you might have in a training plan.
So, early in a training plan, it's a little bit more base oriented.
You're building that foundation. Later in the training plan, it might be more speed oriented. you might be preparing for a race for that peak performance and the strength training has to follow that general pattern too so that you know, you're not lifting too much weight the week of your goal race and, you know, the goals are aligned, in other words.
Cool, awesome, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Now, if we're talking about getting down into some really competitive times like you start one or wanting to run 235, 230.
Okay, now we're starting to flirt with what we might call a sub-elite time.
It's not elite, but... You're certainly competitive enough where you might get a guaranteed entry into the New York City Marathon.
You're certainly starting to be a very privileged runner for sure.
Once you get there, you have to worry about everything.
The more complex your training is, the more advanced you are, the more everything matters.
So a couple of things that would really be helpful is number one, running with a group or a team. having support when you do workouts or long runs, especially long runs that have some quality in them, just because you're gonna be performing at such a level that it almost becomes difficult to perform at those levels if you don't have support.
And I remember talking to a friend of mine, very talented.
He's a 225 marathoner. And we were going on a run together a couple years ago, and we were joking about how it's too hard to train for the mile now. because we don't have a team.
We need to just train for the long stuff like a marathon.
Because you could do a tempo run or a long run by yourself, but... my God, some of those complex track workouts, you just need other people to pull you through them.
And so... The analogy is very similar here.
When you start doing more complex things, it just becomes more advantageous to have that group with you.
So I don't know if you have that ability to train with other people, to find a group, a team, a club, etc.
But it is something that you might want to think about because it could help. you know, unlock a new frontier.
That's funny that you say that because I just joined a track club here in my hometown, Winnipeg.
So the Manitoba Runners Association puts on a, it's a super cheap track club with former college track athletes as the coaches. meets once a week and we go through a track workout, there's like 15 to 20 people And, uh, you know, it gets held for like three months long in summertime.
And then there's a second one that happens over winter time as well, which I'm that one I'm really excited for, especially.
Here in Canada, it gets very cold and very desolate.
So to have a track group to run with in wintertime is going to be something I'm looking forward to for sure.
Yeah, I think that's a great positive step forward for you.
And just remember, you're going to learn from these people too.
Like going back to that idea that knowledge is a competitive advantage, there's going to be a coach there.
There's going to be other runners there.
Hopefully there are runners there who are a lot better than you, Dan.
That's a good thing. You can learn about them.
How do they think about running? What perspectives do they have? do I approach things like an amateur?
Whereas they approach things with a more professional mindset and you really start picking up on some of the finer nuances of how to train at a higher level.
And that I think can help unlock new levels of performance for you.
And I love that it's a track club because a lot of the things that we've been talking about, whether it's your overall mileage, whether it's your long runs, whether it's doing strength training so that you can do more mileage and long runs, really what we're talking about is aerobic development.
And that's obviously the most important thing for the marathon.
But if you think about your marathon performance, we need to push it up from the bottom, but we also need to pull it up from the top.
So your endurance is pushing it up from below.
That's your floor. The floor is just your aerobic fitness, your endurance, your aerobic metabolism, where the ceiling is like your mile time.
How fast are you? If I put you in a middle distance race, how fast are you 800 meters a mile 1500 you know maybe the 3k And we've got to pull it up from the top too.
And so when you start getting into these very, very competitive marathon times, you will almost always find that the only people who can run 235, 230 or faster are the people who also are incredibly fast in other distances first.
They are not the runners who are... just running marathons year after year after year, and they're not really participating in too many other races.
And so this is where... Working on that, some of those track distance times, the 5K, even the 10K, I think is really important.
And you got a little bit of a taste of this when you ran that half marathon.
And then all of a sudden, improved by 30 minutes in the marathon.
Like, that's incredible. And it's because you demonstrated such a faster performance earlier.
I remember when I ran my first marathon, it was the New York City Marathon.
I didn't really know what to expect, although I was somewhat arrogant going into it, thinking that, Oh, I'm going to be negative splitting the race in Central Park.
It's going to be so easy. Why can't I run six-minute mile pace?
You know, I'm a collegiate athlete. You know, my 5K time is so much faster than that.
And of course I was very humbled by the marathon, as many of us are the first time we do it, but I still ended up running a 2.44 as my first marathon.
And I remember all these people almost incredulous that I was able to run that time.
And it was like, well, it's in line with all my other times, you know, like I've run a 433 mile.
Did you really expect me to go run a 433 marathon?
It just wasn't going to happen. And so the learning from this is if you focus on the shorter distances first, which are easier to improve by because you can run them more frequently.
You don't have to do 20 mile long runs. You get better faster.
And so that's another option for you is instead of maybe doing two marathons a year or even one marathon a year, you could take an entire year.
And in the spring, you're working on middle distances.
In the fall, you work on a half marathon.
And then that spring marathon is not going to know what hit it because you are just going to be such a faster runner going into that race.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Would it be...
Um, then on the other end, like the, the endurance aerobic building and would it be a bad idea to do like an ultra marathon block where you're just focused on like slow, long miles to build that aerobic engine.
And then on one end, you have the speed blocks I actually don't think ultra training is really going to help your marathon as much as you think it might. just because you're gonna get a lot of endurance stimulus Even if you're training for a 5k, like even if you're training for a 5k, I would recommend doing a good long run.
I would not recommend cutting your mileage substantially.
You know, run 80, 90 kilometers a week if you're training for a 5K.
You're just going to change the workouts that you do.
And in your long run, isn't going to be as long.
You know, it might be, you know, instead of getting up to 32, 34 kilometers a You might cap yourself at 26 or 28 kilometers.
So they're not as stressful they don't take as much out of you you might double a little bit more to make some of those some of the mileage easier to accomplish but You know, you get just as much from training for a marathon from an endurance perspective, I think, as you would training for a 50K. um i'm not convinced that the physiological adaptations you get from ultra training are that much different than training for a marathon.
So I would say train for almost anything. except the ultra.
And then if you really care about the marathon, that's what you kind of come back to every once in a while to test yourself yet again.
Okay, cool. That's good to know. That makes a lot of sense.
I know you've said before how like with marathon training, if you're doing one or two key races a year.
If it doesn't go well, it really sucks when you only have one or two attempts at it.
Whereas with a 5K or a 10K, you can go back week after week after week and keep attempting a faster and a peak time. which I've definitely found that to be the case.
So that's good to know. I will... definitely work that into the calendar.
Yeah, but with that said, if you want to do an ultramarathon...
It's very much like training for a marathon.
You're going to get a similar training stimulus from an ultra cycle as you will from a marathon cycle you know obviously a little bit more speed oriented for a marathon but just because you can race it faster.
It's usually on the road compared to a trail.
It's just a little bit of a different event.
But if an ultra interests you, You know, we're not really talking about what actually is exciting for you, Dan.
We're sort of just talking about the nuts and bolts of training and how to get faster.
But a big part of this is doing things that interest you so that you stay motivated and driven and ambitious to keep working hard.
If you want it to take four months, and instead of run a marathon, you run an ultra, or you're like, Jason, I don't care about that half marathon cycle.
I'm doing an ultra. Great. Go do it. Have fun.
Whatever kind of keeps you in the sport.
As long as you're progressing with training, I think that you're going to keep progressing with your finish times.
Right, right. it can be really helpful to then get a coach.
I think coaches are really good for beginners and for people who are really competitive.
Now for beginners, it's like, let's not make mistakes. let's start this whole running career off on the right foot.
But for the advanced runner, it's Like, I need that second set of eyes, that impartial, neutral judgment to tell me... when I'm doing too much, when I might need to pull back, when I might need to do things a little bit more aggressively.
You know, I always find it interesting with my clients, the things that I...
I'm much more conservative about with them versus the things that I'm much more aggressive about.
And that's one of the things you'll probably learn working with a coach is they might have you pull back on certain elements of your training, but then go a little bit harder on other aspects of your training.
And that just might be... what's needed to take you to the next level.
So a coach is always that extra set of eyes, that extra resource for someone who, you know, like if your next marathon is 301 and you're upset because you didn't get under three, you know, I think based on that 87-minute half, you're probably right around that three-hour marathon mark. and a coach would be a really helpful resource for you as you tried to kind of thread that needle of getting faster, figuring out a goal time, how to train for it, working with the time that you have, et cetera, et cetera.
And then finally, the last thing that I'll say about kind of this massive improvement that we're all looking for is... is something you mentioned talking about that 330A.
You said there were some zigzags. You can't have any zigzags when you're shooting for those super fast times.
It's like a level of consistency that's almost maniacal.
Everyone's like, oh, you shouldn't be obsessed with your running.
It's like, I don't know how to tell you this, who's running under two and a half hours for the marathon is kind of obsessed with their running.
They're not missing any workouts because of the weather.
They're finding a way to get it done. And they're not zigzagging at all.
They are just consistent metronomes. They get the work in. they've almost done the really hard work of figuring out the schedule of how to get the work in.
And then it's just a matter of being disciplined after that.
So those are some of the things that I think are the most impactful when you're thinking about, okay, if I'm a 308 marathoner, I know what it took to go from 338 to 308.
Yes, it's going to take a little bit more of the same. to keep improving, it's also going to take a little bit of a different approach to really get to that next level.
Yeah, that makes sense. How do you think about like over the course of a year, let's say you do an 18 week marathon build and then you have. you know, a five-week post-marathon recovery.
And then, you know, you do another, let's say, you know, maybe moving into a you know, a 5k or 10k or half marathon training block after that, you know, that kind of, you know, those two alone takes up most of the weeks. in a calendar year, is there anything specific in the end of like the, the preseason and the, you know, the, the, not the off season, but the season in between. that would kind of really help elevate getting to that next level?
Or is it kind of just, you know, focus on base, make sure you're recovering well, kind of relax a little bit before kind of going into it?
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think if you're thinking about a year in its entirety, it'd be a good idea to break it up into probably three distinct cycles.
Each cycle doesn't have to be the same length.
You know, a marathon might be longer than a 5K season.
A base phase of training might be shorter than any other phase of training.
So they don't have to be the same. But as long as you're moving from cycle to cycle in kind of a cyclical nature of like, okay, training in this cycle is going to go roughly from… general to specific, it's gonna go easy to hard It's going to go from basically a little bit more of base training to competition phases of training where you're doing workouts, you might be running tune-up races,
Then you're in that peaking phase of training where you might be tapering.
You run one or two goal races. Then you have to rest.
Then you might take a week off. Then you might have two weeks of really easy training to get yourself back into things.
And then the whole cycle repeats itself.
So that's what I would call a race cycle because you're training for races, you're doing workouts.
Base training is a little bit different where you're not gonna have the same intensity in your workouts, you're not gonna have races, you're gonna be more focused on volume, maybe cross-training, your long run, more aerobic workouts.
I think the in-between times are, are where you should probably just rest and rest completely, probably no more than a week or so.
I think seven days is kind of like perfect rest.
Maybe a little more if you've had a really long, difficult, grueling training cycle.
But you do kind of want to get back to things pretty quickly. you can start with a 30-kilometer week, which is going to feel like a vacation to you.
And so that's not a hard week of training by any means.
But you're kind of... maintaining fitness overall.
I think what's most important is as you continue on this project of just improvements and getting better, Dan, is... understanding and working on whatever limits you.
So for some runners, they're very injury prone. you don't need to dedicate a specific season or phase of training to building injury resilience, a lot of it just has to do with best practices.
So I know you're slowing down your easy runs.
That's fantastic. You've implemented strength training.
Amazing. So you're already like that's probably 50% of the equation right there.
I think the number one way to reduce injuries is just good training, making sure that you're not running too fast, you have proper progressions, you're doing workouts that are appropriate for you and your abilities.
You are not increasing your mileage, your long run distance by, by, too much, too aggressively.
But other people might be limited by their inability to run a lot.
They could be limited by their schedule, in which case it's going to be very difficult to realize your potential in a long endurance race like a marathon.
But it could be a mindset issue, thinking that you can't run more than 30 miles a week or whatever it might be.
You also might be someone who's limited by equivalent performances.
So you've run an 87-minute half marathon.
I don't know what your 5K time is, but it sounds like you haven't raced a lot of 5Ks.
And so your improvement could come from focusing on the middle distances and just driving those times really low.
So there's a lot of different options to see where your particular weaknesses might be or what limits you personally you know i know for me I was limited by my injury risk.
So I was always an injury prone runner. That's what got me started with strength training.
I wish I had known it earlier, and I would have taken a different approach in my competitive years, but...
Hindsight's 20-20. So I try to teach runners what I know now, not what I didn't know then.
So those are some of the things to think about as you move forward.
Let me ask you a question. What do you think limits you from a training perspective?
Are you... You don't seem particularly injury prone.
It seems like you're pretty good at increasing your volume to levels that many people would struggle with.
What is that thing that you think might be holding you back?
I do wonder if it's top-line speed. So...
I've only raced. Yeah. So for my three Oh eight marathon block, I did do a 10 K race in there.
And I ran a 38, 30, but I've never raced a 5k.
Uh, so I don't know what my 5k time would be.
I feel like I could be much more consistent with strength training.
I find that one to be difficult to fit into the schedule when hitting, you know, a new peak week, just from a time perspective.
Those are the first two things that if I were to reflect myself, that would kind of be it.
And you know what? You know what, Dan? That's actually a little bit easy to fix.
Like if you were highly injury prone, that's a tough nut to crack.
There could be a lot of things going on there, but if it's just inexperience with some of the shorter middle distance races, That's not a hard problem to solve.
You should kind of just get out there and throw yourself into the fire, see what happens.
You know, that's the great thing about these middle distances.
It's a lot of trial and error. A lot of error. you know, be okay with that.
You know, I think running, being a distance runner is almost an exercise in managing failure because it happens so often with poor runs and workouts and races and you just kind of have to roll with it.
But that might be the thing that you can work on next.
So that the next time you end up lining up for a marathon, you're almost guaranteeing yourself a pretty big personal best as long as things go well.
Right, right. Well, Dan, I'm excited for you.
I'm a little envious because you're on this amazing upward trajectory of... running faster and getting better and improving PRs.
And it's just a very exciting place to be.
I remember when I was in that spot myself, and for anyone there right now, take advantage of it.
Every day is such a gift when you're improving because... you almost don't know how good you can potentially get.
The sky's the limit. And you just have this wide open horizon of possibilities in front of you.
So I find it... Very exciting. I think it's the thing that got me hooked on running in the first place.
And so whenever I'm talking to a runner in that spot too, I get a little excited myself.
So I know you just raced a marathon like two months ago.
What's next for you? What are you thinking?
Twin Cities Marathon in October. So Minneapolis.
So that'll be a couple months away. already started the next, the next marathon block already.
So hoping for, you know, to break sub three in that race.
So, We'll see, fingers crossed. Fingers crossed.
Yeah, I think it might be fun to do You might forego the traditional half marathon tune-up race and instead do a 5K and a 10K. just to get a little bit of extra exposure to speed.
I don't think you really need a half marathon as a tune-up race. it's probably the best indication of how your marathon will go.
So as long as you're okay not getting that data point, you know, if you were to really improve substantially in those shorter distances, that's additional amazing data points that you're on the right track.
But for someone like you, I think you might benefit from the more speed oriented approach to your tune up races. just because that's the thing that you're probably lacking the most in your running experience.
And so that's where the most improvement lies for you.
Okay. How many tune-up races would be like would be a good target within a marathon block to go for?
I think if... If you're racing a half, you could do just the half marathon, or if you wanted to add one other shorter race in there, maybe a 5K or a 10K. a couple of weeks before the half marathon, that's a good approach.
If you wanted to not do a half marathon, Maybe two to three races is good.
Maybe a 5K and two 10Ks or a 5K and a 10K.
You just want to make sure that the racing isn't taking away from the necessary training.
So one of the problems that I run into with some runners is that they've signed up for all these tune-up races, But they need those weekends to continue building their long run.
And so by running the races, it's a great way to work on speed.
It's a great way to test your fitness. It's a great way to improve your VO2 max and your running economy, but we're not building the long run, which is arguably the most important thing for the marathon.
So only do a bunch of tune-up races if your long run is already in a good spot and you're not compromising anything. like the marathon or the long run progression over the course of the couple months of marathon training that you're doing.
Right. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. So yeah, like if you have 12 weeks to train for a marathon and, And at the very beginning of that 12 weeks, you're already super comfortable running a 16 mile long run.
You can run a bunch of tune-up races, but if you're 12 weeks out and your long run is 11 miles, you've got to spend every weekend building that long run or else you're not really going to be prepared for 26.2 on race day.
Right. How would you schedule? Either the day before or the day after a tune-up race, would you kind of just keep doing your training as normal and do a tune-up race on fatigued legs?
Or would you purposely kind of have like a little mini taper of a day or two.
I might do a little mini taper, you know, certainly not a two-week taper or even an entire week taper, but...
If it's a Saturday race, maybe whatever you normally do on Thursday gets seriously reduced.
And then Friday is just an easy three, four or five miles with some strides and you're just kind of gearing up for the next day.
It's almost a. a priming day for the race on Saturday.
What happens afterward, I think, is dependent upon the race that you run.
So if it's a 5K, you almost could do a long run the next day.
You know, you could do maybe a modified long run, a shorter long run just to get in some extra volume.
But if it's a half marathon, you might need a recovery run.
I know for me... After my first half marathon, I was very beat up and sore afterwards.
I was also like 23 years old and I think I recovered with like five dirty martinis.
I do not recommend that. the indiscretions of youth were substantial.
But you just might need a recovery day after a more a grueling race like a half marathon where you're just really hammering your legs for quite a long time.
So it's a little bit of a, it depends kind of an answer based on what race you do that weekend.
Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.
But in general, I think pretty much you want to be racing on tired legs during a season.
Unless you're doing a 5K one week out from the marathon, which I don't think is a great thing to do, but...
It's doable. You can certainly do it. In that kind of a scenario, it's going to happen in your taper immediately.
I would not recommend a longer run the day afterwards or even a long cool down.
That's another option too is, You might warm up two or three miles, three, four, five kilometers, race a 5K, Maybe you do a substantial cool down, you know, very easy effort.
So the whole the volume of that day is pretty substantial.
That's an option where it kind of gives you some of the benefit of a long run without without really having to do a long run.
Oh, interesting. Yeah, that makes sense.
It's almost like getting a tempo within you know, within a run. you know, having a warm up during tempo and then having to cool down.
Yeah. In this case, you're you're basically warming up for a long run with a 5K race.
Yeah. That sounds hard. Reminds me of watching, I think, I don't know if it was FlowTrack or another service, but they had video of Galen Rupp doing a workout after a race on an indoor track and Yeah, you can do some crazy things.
You can run a workout after a race. You can do a really long cool down after a race.
It's just, are you ready for that kind of a stress?
Does it serve your long-term goals? Are you fueled appropriately for it?
As long as those conditions are met, you can... break some of these more traditional rules in running.
Like you always have to do an easy cool down after a race.
Well, yes and no. What's some of the craziest workouts that you've done?
Oh, my goodness. I... I think some of the harder track workouts I did as a college track runner still give me PTSD to this day.
I remember running... 2x800, 2xMILE, 2x800.
Now, it's not a terribly challenging workout just to hear about it, but it depends on how you're running it.
I think the speed at which I ran that workout is probably better than a lot of my middle distance PRs.
I wish I could kind of take that day and just race a 3K or 5K instead because I was running just very fast.
I look at him like, wow, how did I do that?
Do you remember what the rest was in between?
Yes, it was a 400-meter jog after the 800s, and it was an 800-meter jog after the miles.
And I remember running about eight-minute pace for the recoveries, which at the time was a very relaxed effort.
And I think I ran like... two 219s, and then I ran 452, 449, 219, 218.
And I look at that and I'm like, yeah, that's better than most of my other races that I've run.
It's a good lesson. Don't run workouts so hard that you then can't perform in a race.
Right. Yeah. Well, Dan, I appreciate you coming on and doing this little bit of a hybrid type of podcast episode where we talked about you, but then we sort of talked a little more generally and and related it back to you a little bit.
Hopefully this helps. Any runner who wants to improve, and not necessarily in the marathon, I think one of the great things about running is that it's very transferable to other race distances.
So whether you're a miler, a 5K athlete, a marathoner, or an ultra marathoner, A lot of these principles transcend the event, and so they're going to be helpful for you no matter what you're training for.
So... Dan, best of luck at Twin Cities coming up this fall.
I think I did a podcast with the race director and we did a course preview.
So that's something you might. might want to look into.
Yeah, I'll find that for sure. Yeah. Eli Ash, I think was his name.
He's a great guy. Talked a lot about kind of what to expect on the course, how he thinks about chunking the course for... you know, a great performance.
So hopefully that can help you get that sub three marathon.
Are you going to update me this fall and let me know?
If you get under three, I definitely will.
Yeah, yeah, I definitely will. Yeah, well, thanks again.
Best of luck with your training. I hope this gave you some good ideas on how to approach your training so that you can just keep getting better because you're on that trend.
I want it to continue. Yeah. Thanks so much, Jason, for your advice and for your podcast and this time.
Yeah. Very insightful for me. So I, you know, taking notes and I've learned a lot.
So very much appreciate that. Awesome. Thanks, Dan.
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