Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Roundtable.
You're listening to Roundtable with myself, He Young.
I'm joined by You -shun in the studio and Bob Jones via video link.
Coming up, your boss isn't a fire breathing dragon.
But they're not an all knowing Saint either.
Managing up is a strategic approach to understanding your manager's goals and communication style, enabling you to align your efforts and drive better business outcomes together.
We discuss how exactly do you go about it, and morning shower, night showers, sometimes shower, or like a select group of Hollywood celebrities, no shower at all.
We're about to shake up everything you thought you knew about showering.
Our podcast listeners can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcast. Now, let's move on to the next topic discussion today.
Managing up is a work strategy.
It's about guiding your boss through smart empathetic communication to create a win -win partnership.
It's not supposed to be about manipulation or just trying to please.
If misused, managing up can feel political or insincere, which may harm trust and teamwork.
Today, let's explore how to practice managing up authentically and professionally to support both your success and a healthy work environment.
We often hear about managing teams downwards, but what about managing up or xiāng xiāng guānli in Chinese.
You shouldn't give us a little bit more on the origin of managing up as a leadership work strategy.
Yeah, although similar concepts on influencing your boss have existed for a long time, it is believed that the term managing up was first popularized by Rosanne Badowski, who spent over a decade as Jack Walsh's executive assistant at General Electric.
She then formalized the concept in her book, Managing Up, in October 2004.
Today, Managing Up features prominently in corporate training programs, MBA courses, and executive coaching, which is a testament to its enduring relevance.
Oh, what a nightmare.
Why? Oh it's you know where do you start with this one because I think it really does depend on on the kind of team that you're working in and I've had good experiences and bad experiences certainly with one company which started off by being very top -down which means that you are an employee and there were there were next to no opportunities to actually express yourself and say well maybe we could do things a different way or you know you you as a boss you know maybe you could do things a different way to make me feel happier that just wasn't the way it was that it was very structured, and you
did what you were told, and that was it.
And then they went through a bit of a culture change, and they said, Right, we're going to have performance reviews, which means that we'll look down on you and tell you what you're doing right or wrong.
And then you'll have the opportunity to look towards us and tell us what we're doing right or wrong as bosses.
And it didn't work.
It just it just can't be done because there are so many pitfalls when it comes to making even innocent things like making suggestions about how you might be able to do the work better can come across as being aggressive or even Suggesting that your boss can't do the job properly.
I have had good experiences as well In in some businesses where you almost felt as though you didn't know the management was there and they were really good And they were very friendly they became almost like your friends but at the end of the day you all knew that you had a task to do and Everybody had a place everybody had a role to play in making sure that that task actually happened so for example if we had a Project an ongoing project then the boss might come down and sit with us and say well, what do you reckon?
How are we gonna do this and would get a response from them?
Then we would actually tell the boss.
This is what you need to do to help us do this So it was very much more Collegiate it was more sort of collaboration in terms of management, but I can't quite see how managing up unless you have a very Enlightened boss you have a boss who really understands what's going on at the end of the day The boss is the boss the boss is in charge The boss has to carry the can if something goes wrong so with that comes a certain amount of status and I think if you start undermining that status, that's not a good look if you're in a business Yeah I always also think you need to be really really clever to
maybe require your boss to do certain things for you um Or we say you might think you are managing up but in reality Maybe maybe you're just doing what your manager wants you to do, and you may not even be aware of that kind of maybe leadership techniques that your boss has been involved in, um, so that's why I was thinking maybe managing up this thing is more about finding a communication style that both employees and leaders feel comfortable with and can accept.
You know, never assume that you fully understand how your company or the society operates of course you know confidence is a good thing but it's also important to remember the there's an old Chinese saying there's always a higher mountain right um ishanga or ishanga or meaning that there's always someone better or something beyond your current understanding so yeah i think have a map in your mind is good but still have a mutual understanding is also very important i think this you raised two very important things there one is the first i think were being very very careful about what you say about manipulation that sometimes
you can manipulate your boss because you can make it sound as if they had the good idea or you can you can try and change their behavior by a little bit of psychology and that of course it can go horribly wrong but also I was thinking that bosses have bosses you're entirely right and you don't know as an employee what they have to face and they will perhaps be also be trying to manage up.
They'll be trying to work with their own boss to try and make sure...
even to try and protect the team that they have under underneath.
They are like a gatekeeper in a sense of making sure that their own team, their own little kingdom is going to be safe.
And they also have the job of trying to find it I don't know how you would do this as a boss to be honest to try and you're looking two ways I think the Romans had a two -faced god didn't they a Janus or something where you actually can look two ways at exactly the same time and somehow try and find some kind of compromise in the middle I think it's an incredibly difficult but you raise some exactly the right points there that it's so difficult to find the right way to do it and Don't go overboard, don't be too manipulative, yeah, actually, um, playing tricks is something that comes visible so easily
in the eyes of most people because you're all in this workplace and how did your boss get into his or her position by playing these tricks so i think it's kind of dangerous to feel like you can outsmart other people especially those who got promoted before you did but also I think what's kind of refreshing in this debate of managing up is that bosses are human beings.
They are subject to the same kind of emotions as everybody else.
They're not invincible they're not always so intelligent and extra smart or whatever it is and I think putting that into the reasonable perspective I think is a good starting point and what you guys mentioned about about your boss mountain thing or whatever it is.
To me, essentially this is about information asymmetry.
That is, your boss usually knows more about what's going on in the organization, about a particular project and they don't always bother or they don't have to let you know every nitty -gritty detail.
And therefore you don't necessarily have all the information to come up with the best solution for the team.
So sometimes trying to influence the overall trajectory is just impossible.
And one thing that I would kind of disagree with how maybe we perceive this, as opposed to what Bob said earlier, okay, maybe what you want is I want my boss to change X, Y, Z so it makes my life easier, but I don't think we can think like that Because if we do unless you're a complete genius then it will backfire So the way to look at it is okay.
I don't completely believe this.
But this is what the theory goes So you're making your boss's life easier So when you're proposing what you want to do here and then he or she will come on board easier for example if you're raising this problem that you're facing with your work to your boss come up with possibly one or two or three plans how your boss could deal with this problem instead of just presenting the problem but actually offer some ideas of solutions that your boss could pick from i know that's difficult and you could ask that is above my pay grade if i can do that i will become the and not the subordinate.
But I think maybe managing up has something to do with this kind of mindset instead of just, oh, making my life easier, boss.
Bob, what do you think?
You partly answered my thinking, actually, there.
It comes down to what is going to be best for the business and the company is if it does well.
Now, if you can, to do that, you need your boss to tell you or to give you the information so that you can do your job properly so you have to communicate to the boss that that is what you need and they don't they wouldn't always know what you know or what you don't know what kind of information you need so yeah I mean it comes down to you have to find some kind of way where the boss doesn't feel threatened that you're asking for certain information but at the same time as you say they have the bigger picture, they know what's going on, know what they can tell you and what they can't tell you.
So, yeah, I mean how do you do that?
I don't think anybody's found a perfect way yet.
Yeah, and also I was thinking this is a process of you and your boss, you are building the trust with each other.
You know, proactively addressing some potential maybe misunderstanding and conflicts and also ensure your achievements are recognized it's not like you are only building trust with each other by telling them what you've done but telling them that what you need in the way that's telling them that you are actually doing something but there is maybe some obstacles in front of you and I think that is also trying to make your boss understand what you are actually doing because sometimes they only know the results of your work but not fully understand the process of your job could you guys give us some
ways in successfully managing up oh now I would go back to the idea of manipulation a little bit of psychology there does that make me a bad person I hope not say that you just you need to work out what makes your boss happy?
What makes them more receptive to your ideas.
Don't go in there and become conflictual about what you're trying to say.
But certainly find out how much they want you to offer your opinions before you actually give them.
Find the way to communicate within the team and teams differ.
I mean there are good teams and there are bad teams but they all have their own internal culture and you have to find out what that is so that everybody can work smoothly together.
I would say that depends on different scenarios that you may come across in during your jobs, but all in all, I think as I said, genuinely talk to your boss and tell them what you are thinking and you are not doing this just because of your personal benefits but for the whole good of the company.
But I would offer a word of warning that could all go horribly, horribly wrong that if you start, maybe, suggesting too much or maybe coming up with too many ideas, and especially if those ideas are better than your boss's, the boss's boss may come to hear about it and will say, hey, I've got the wrong person in that job and maybe this person is going to be better.
Now, maybe that'll happen naturally and maybe that you'll get promotion and maybe that you'll, you know, be able to, you know, get away from the and the ...
okay... should we talk about hatred that you might suddenly find in a workplace?
You wanna avoid that.
There's gonna be ways to do it, but just be very very careful.
You're listening to Round Table.
Coming up, let's talk about something we all do or don't do.
Shower time. Spoiler, not everyone's scrubbing down daily.
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Then tune in to Roundtable, where east meets west. And understanding is the goal.
You're listening to Roundtable with myself He Young.
I'm joined by Bob Jones via video link and Yu Shun in the studio with me.
Not like this is any of my business.
Do you shower every day?
Are you a scrub -and -go morning person?
Or do you prefer to wind down with a pre -bed rinse or bath?
We all know the shower debate is real, but here's the kicker.
Do you really need a daily shower, and if so when's the best time?
So no need for a daily shower apparently.
What is this supported by?
Yes, and before we get into that, I would like to list out some of the stats that people internationally and how often they shower.
A 2015 survey by Spanish media showed that Brazilians bathe an average of 12 times per week, while Colombians and Australians average 10 and eight times respectively.
And in comparison, Chinese people bathe roughly once every two days, on average, that sounds very low.
But this data is a bit outdated and as far as I know, most people around me do take a shower every day, especially online, there are often debates about this.
Some say that people in northern regions don't shower daily due to the colder climate while in the south where it's warmer, and most people do shower everyday.
Yet dermatologists say that many people do not need or may not want to shower this frequently.
You know, Dr. Joyce Park is a dermatologist in Seattle, and she was saying, there is no one size fits all approach when it comes to washing your skin and hair and the ideal frequency depends on your skin and hair type and how much you sweat and how dirty you get and she also added showering too frequently can definitely dry out your skin and worsening redness itchiness and flaking and also triggering eczema flares.
Oh, that's good to know and is it better to shower in the morning or at night, Bob?
Well that's a very good question.
I will admit and I will give you my little routine and maybe it's good and maybe it's bad I don't care it's what I have to do.
So I go for a run first thing in the morning so as soon as I come back I have a shower that's shower number one.
Then I tend to do my work and then probably go for a swim in the afternoon and after the swim I have another shower.
And then maybe later on in the afternoon maybe I've been for a long walk or I've done something else then I will think, you know what, I want to change gear.
I want to relax. I want to feel better, so I might have shower number three.
So that puts me in the, I don't know where I come in the league table of countries there, but I think it's probably slightly more than average, especially for British people, but that is my, that's what I do.
Do I need to have all those showers?
Absolutely yes, for all sorts of different reasons.
It's not all about, remember, it's not all about keeping clean.
Some of it is to do with health because there is one way of looking at it that people, psychologists and doctors say that actually taking a cold shower is very good for your mental health as well.
So it's not just about keeping clean, there could be other reasons why you might want to take a shower.
So as far as I'm concerned I'm happy to take as many showers as I can.
Bob, with all respect I suppose you you might have single -handedly improved the average shower times that Brits spend every day thanks to your contribution.
And you know why I don't want to take a shower every day?
It's because I want to save the planet.
You know, I'm on my moral high horse and I bet it's very difficult to get me down that horse.
You're going to take that, yeah?
That's where I will rest for the rest of the show.
And with that, we are signing off.
Thank you so much Yoo Shoon and Bob Jones for joining the discussion.
I'm Heo Young. We will see you next time.
