Hey, it's Christopher Kimball from Milk Street Radio.
Sounds like I'm bragging and I am.
We're the number one most downloaded food podcast in America.
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Hey, it's Meredith. but listeners of all ages will find relatable wisdom in the stories she shares.
Today, I want to share a brief recent conversation I had with Laura.
We talked about what I learned from my parents' divorce, what it felt like to strike up a relationship during the pandemic and the knowing that comes with age.
After that conversation, stick around for an excerpt of a Dating While Gray episode called Love is a Family Affair.
You'll hear from a widower named Herb who offered dating tips to his daughter, Jen.
I hope you enjoy the listen.
And if you want to hear more Dating While Gray episodes, you can find the show wherever you get your podcasts.
So the Love Letters tagline is where real people tell stories about dating relationships and falling in love.
If that sounds familiar, it's because Meredith is one of my role models.
I found out about her back in 2018.
I'd just been selected for an incubation program to develop my Dating While Gray writing project into a podcast.
And one of our first assignments was to find an aspirational show.
Meredith had only recently launched the Love Letters podcast, but she'd been writing the advice column for over a decade.
For context, I'm turning 47 this year.
So it's amazing the confidence I had at 31 to be like I know how to tell people about their 30-year marriages.
I did think I had some expertise.
I knew what I didn't know, which I think was important.
I was often saying, you know what, I've never had kids and I still am not a parent, right?
I had grown up in a household with a divorcing mother and was probably maybe too involved in that journey through discussion.
And I was constantly thinking about who my sister was dating, who my mother was dating, who my friends were dating, who they weren't dating.
And I felt it very comfortable to be a voyeur and not date anybody at all, really for most of that time.
And I felt like it was really an anthropology project of sorts to see how all these different generations of people in my life were experiencing love.
At the same time and we've talked about it a little bit on Dating While Gray.
It must have been very awkward difficult, or was it, having parents who were divorcing.
Well, it's interesting.
As a child of divorce.
You have all these judgments you make of like here's how they're doing it wrong.
Here's how my parents are doing it wrong.
And then you become the age they were when they got divorced.
And it gives you a lot more empathy.
Like, of course, they were doing it wrong.
They were in their early 40s.
Divorce is hard and there's no way around it.
But staying married would have been a lot worse for all of us.
So I am very grateful that My mother in particular.
You know some may say there was an oversharing in my household, but her ability to be transparent with me really made me look at everybody like people.
Her willingness to show me what she didn't know and to ask me for advice as like a teenager and be like.
Does this seem weird to you?
And I'd be like, it does seem weird.
We were collectively clueless and figuring it out together.
I'm wondering about dating when you're younger or dating when you're, I guess, more experienced with dating, versus dating when you're older or dating when you really have no experience.
Like, for example, dating apps, which I finally gotten comfortable calling them dating apps as opposed to online dating.
Online dating, yeah.
I do it too.
Yeah, I'm not ready to proclaim them quote, the best way to meet a romantic partner for people over 50, even though a lot of dating coaches and relationships experts will tell you oh, it's the best way.
I'm not sure dating apps ever feel like the best way to date for anybody at any age, because when you're in them you're like oh, this is a little bit terrible and?
And to be 25 and experiencing that can be overwhelming and unpleasant, and to be 70 and experiencing that can be deeply unpleasant.
I think they can work for both ages.
I think It's also important to put them in context, which is that we overuse them.
We are on them for too many hours.
We are like digging for some sort of buried treasure sometimes.
And it can't take the place of real life, of community, of connections.
You mentioned calling them apps, as opposed to online dating, which I have trouble with still calling.
It's like that says to me, oh, well, you're used to them now.
And I think, as you get used to them, you figure out how they're best for you, which are the platforms that your eyes like looking at.
You begin to realize when to forgive that someone doesn't know how to take a good photo of themselves.
You begin to notice when someone takes a photo that is too good of themselves.
And you get your own habits of what you accept.
And there are other ways.
So I love setups.
I love meeting in real life, as they say.
But I think that there are a lot of people who want partners and they are on these apps.
So I know that in 2018, you had a romance with somebody you met at work, which used to be a very common way of meeting somebody.
Yes.
So, okay, without jumping to the end, you are in a relationship now, yes?
I am, and I do not work with him, thank goodness.
I met him on an app while it was locked down.
So I was on this app with a friend who was going through a relationship breakup, and So it was more for moral support that I was on the app.
I was like, he was like, if I can do it, you have to do it with me.
And I would turn it on for like seven minutes at a time.
Oh, why seven?
I don't know.
It was like random, but like minutes.
Like I wasn't just like fully on there.
It was like, it felt like an eclipse, right?
Like, oh, here are the minutes.
I would do this with him.
It's like testing the waters.
But I also had the luxury of saying, I'm not going to meet any of these people in person.
It is a lockdown.
I'm not leaving my house.
This is just for sport.
And this person and I like connected, kept in touch, eventually took long walks together.
We had a very like Regency romance style courtship for that reason.
Lots of, lots of walking.
We're burning a lot of calories.
And I wasn't even, I thought maybe this is my weird pandemic friend that I've made.
And when things opened up and we were vaccinated, I was like, oh wait, no, I like him.
So it is interesting to me that like that era, I think slowed everybody down a little bit.
And we always talk about how, like if the world had been sped up, would we have time, would we have had time to truly connect?
You know, we are two people over 40 who he's divorced.
So the last time he dated, there were less rules.
And I think it's also very difficult when you're older, to over a certain age or after a place in life to be like oh, I like things how I like them.
I get a lot of letters from people over 60, I would say.
And I think that's because of the globe's demographic.
And that's one of the biggest things is like I would really like a partner, but if you move where I put my napkins, I will lose my mind.
And how do we do that?
How do we accept partnership that is new without everything becoming chaos in our lives?
I've had a lot of women tell me lately that they have reclaimed they've used the expression reclaimed their feminine energy.
And what I think I'm hearing them say is, I am a feminist, but...
I want to be wooed, or I want to revert to some of those traditional dating rules or standards where the man is supposed to do the pursuing.
And, you know, if he doesn't call by the, you know, blah, blah.
And so what are your feelings about these rules?
Listen, do whatever you want and have the rules you want to have.
But I think maybe what you're hearing and what I'm hearing is a lot of people are tired and have not been romanced in a long time.
Oh, can you say that again?
Say that again.
That's important.
A lot of people are very tired and have not been romanced in a long time.
Yes.
And that is rough.
And if you want that, I'm all in on that.
Now, once you get to this granular level of well, that means this person calls first and this person responds second it can get a, But sometimes people are shy and you have to message them first.
I mean, Bumble and heterosexual relationships like sets it up that way.
But give someone the chance to be romantic in the way that they are.
Give someone the chance to get to know you so that they can cater that romance to who you are.
I get it.
I think it's great if you feel like reclaiming your feminine energy and like accepting that kind of showing of affection, like I just would say, like it's a two-way street for that.
And it may look different and it may look better.
May I ask, are you living with your partner?
Not today.
Ask again next week.
Oh, is this breaking news?
Maybe.
I mean, we're figuring this out.
Again, figuring it out.
But it is a constant discussion, I will say that.
And you're hitting on a thing, right?
Which is that, like, we are two people now who've lived alone for some years.
And, you know, you have to ask yourself, like, is this why it works?
Because there's like a room to miss someone.
But no, I have never been married and I've never had a 30-year relationship.
And I go out of my way to truly imagine what it would be like to start something new, especially when you didn't want to, especially if the end of that relationship was not your choice.
And I can be super pep talky and hopeful and say the world is different and think about what it would be like to be with someone who chooses you.
Or think about what it would be like to be alone and have a bunch of friends and do cool stuff and be like a character on TV who, like you know, is aspirational.
But I know that, especially in the beginning, as you set up new routines, it doesn't feel like that.
So I do know that.
But that's one of the moments where I'm like oh, I have to remember that I spent a lot of years mastering being solo.
And I got real good at it, too good at it, if I am to be honest.
And I also had a commenter say to me you know Meredith, often you will say lean on your community of friends.
And not all of us have that.
Not all of us have that in a way that feels true and as real as our romantic relationships.
And I was like, oh, right.
So some people are starting over and building the friends they would actually choose after 50 and And that is something that I really have to I have really taken a step back when I get letters like this and say OK well, let's not assume that their best friend from college is someone they even like.
Yeah.
Like, how do you go about building something new?
Because I will tell you that in a romantic relationship, I feel that way, where I'm like well, this is.
This is a brand new experience for me.
And some of the things that I should know really well, especially with my day job, feel new, weirdly unfamiliar.
So I am calling upon my own column and letter writers to say well, what did people say?
And vice versa.
So that's what I would say is that I am every day imagining what it would be like to build the things I already have.
OK, is there anything else I need to know?
You know, listen, if anybody wants some feel good advice, come to lovelettersatboston.com.
It's all anonymous and the best letters are from people over 50 because there's so much to say.
Speed Dating While Great audio production and mix is by Steve Black Audio.
For more on the show, including how to get in touch with me, go to datingwhilegreat.com.
I'm Laura Stassi.
Thanks for listening.
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We're all out of the ordinary.
There's a battle playing out right now over who should control American universities.
We're going to bankrupt these universities.
In season one, we were guessing what was to come.
Now, we know.
We want nothing less than $500 million from Harvard.
From the Boston Globe and on the media, it's season two of The Harvard Plan.
This time, it really is personal.
Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
If you like what you've seen with my headshots through the years, you can thank one of my college friends.
I'm Jennifer, 62 years old.
Okay, Dad, so why don't you say your name?
You just say Herb.
Hi, this is Herb.
Jen's a professional photographer.
Her 92-year-old father lives with her.
Herb's health is declining, and speaking has become difficult.
But Herb has persevered.
And so too has Jen.
Because living together, that was never the plan.
Maybe it was bad luck, bad timing, or maybe it was fate that brought Herb to live with Jen.
Now, this story has a few twists and turns.
So let me start at the beginning with Herb and Jen's mom, Jerry.
Back in 1999, Jen's parents moved from another state to a college town about 100 miles from Jen's house.
Jen's married, has a little kid, and soon she'll be expecting a second child.
Herb had recently retired from a long career.
He and Jerry had sold the bed and breakfast they'd been running and they had plans to take advantage of everything their new hometown has to offer.
But then Jen's mom is diagnosed with a very aggressive cancer.
She dies only a few months later, at the age of 64.
Of course, Herb is grief-stricken and stunned.
They'd been in their new house for only a year.
He's still active and healthy.
And after 39 years as a husband, he's suddenly not.
As a way to process his emotions and figure out a way forward.
Herb starts thinking about his marriage and what had made it so fulfilling.
He puts his thoughts to paper and he types up a list.
He titles it Requirements for a Successful Long-Term Relationship.
There are a total of 13 attributes on the list.
Herb writes.
They're not in any order of priority, but it's important for both partners to possess them.
To quote ensure a successful marriage.
Go ahead, Dad.
Take a nice deep breath.
So you have lots of air in your lungs.
Okay?
Number one.
2.
An attempt by both partners to be non-judgmental.
3.
Strong sense of humor and the ability to laugh at one's own foibles and not to take yourself too seriously.
4.
The self-confidence that you can do almost anything and indeed attempt it.
Great.
That was good. the self-confidence that you can do almost anything and indeed attempt it.
Herb gives copies of the list to Jen and her siblings.
Jen tucks it away.
Undoubtedly she recognizes that many of the attributes Herb cites are missing in her own romantic partnership.
Jen's marriage has been crumbling for a while now.
She and her husband split up in 2002.
And at the age of 40 and with two little kids, Jen's on her own.
5.
A spiritual underpinning.
Even though I may question the existence of a God, I feel the presence of a force or power that interacts with something that is receptive.
6.
A passion for intimacy and the desire to communicate it.
7.
It is important that both partners not be prejudiced toward any group and never refer to a person by a derogatory name and or stereotype description.
Number eight sensitivity to the feelings of others and not saying something for the sole purpose of degrading or embarrassing another.
Number nine the ability to compromise over differences and achieve an agreement in which neither partner feels that he or she has been ill-treated.
That's Jen's brother David and sister Jessica reading from their father's list.
After Herb writes it, he reconnects with a childhood neighbor.
She's now a widow living in California.
Let's call her Marie.
Marie is about eight years older than Herb, but you wouldn't necessarily know it.
They start a long-distance relationship and eventually decide they want to make their love official.
So they declare their commitment to each other in front of family and friends.
That's in early 2003.
Herb and Marie decide they'll live half the year in her California home near her family.
And then they'll drive cross-country to spend the other half living in Herb's home near his family.
For almost two decades, it works great.
And then it doesn't.
Ten.
Mutual respect for each other's space and to recognize that sometimes there's a need to be alone.
It's almost time for Herb and Marie to leave California for their latest cross-country trek.
But Herb's driver's license in his home state is expiring, and his house needs a little bit of work.
Marie doesn't like to fly, so Herb decides to make this quick trip without her to get those chores done.
It's all good.
It's one of his attributes.
Sometimes there's a need to be alone.
Herb packs a small suitcase and boards a plane heading to the East Coast.
He arrives on March 1, 2020.
No one could have predicted that days later, the world would go into coronavirus lockdown.
Herb can't travel to get to Marie, and Marie can't travel to get to Herb.
At first, everything is as fine as it can be.
Herb creates a pandemic bubble with his kids.
Marie creates one with her kids.
Herb and Marie talk on the phone every day.
My friend Jen's work is dried up.
It's a big financial strain.
But the free time allows her to help her dad tackle some of those long put-off projects like going through her mom's stuff and cleaning out the garage.
And like her dad, Jen has repartnered.
She met Chris when she's in her early 50s through a cycling group.
They're practically neighbors, and they are very happily living apart together.
Chris, who's never been married, understands and supports jen's devotion to family.
11 speak out as soon as possible about real or perceived problems and not allow anger or frustration to build up.
Do not let the sun set on any problem 12.
Opinions and points of view different from one's own are acceptable and will not give rise to the feeling that the other person is non-supported tick by.
Then in early July, after Jen and her dad returned from a road trip to see sister Jessica, Herb has a stroke.
For two months, he's in the hospital in rehab.
Afterward, as Jen says, the only option is for him to move in.
With home health aid and virtual classes through the Stroke Comeback Center, Herb is progressing well.
Jen's brother David, arranges his work schedule so that he can make regular trips from out of town to help out.
But then, you're not going to believe this.
I'm not making it up.
A tree comes crashing down on Jen's house.
They're all inside.
Jen, Herb, Herb's health care aide, David.
Thankfully, no one is hurt.
But the family is displaced while major repairs are made.
It's traumatic and stressful.
Jen is now juggling insurance claims, contractors, physical therapy appointments for Herb.
It becomes more and more difficult for Herb and Marie to communicate.
And every time Jen and her siblings start talking about how to get Herb and Marie together, something inevitably arises to thwart the plan.
Like April a year ago, Herb falls and breaks a hip.
He now needs around-the-clock care.
It seems unlikely that he and Marie, who recently turned 100 years old, will ever again see or talk to each other in a meaningful way.
And Herb's at the point of his very long life that I remember my dad experiencing a bit of, shortly before he died at age 95.
Herb's looking back on his years and all the memories.
He's expressing some regrets.
And he's longing for the companionship and love that he once had in abundance with Marie and before that, with Jen's mom Jerry.
As for Herb's list of attributes, my friend Jen already knew instinctively that Chris possesses them.
Still, she dusted off her copy so that her brother and sister could take turns reading it aloud at her wedding.
After eight years of dating, Jen and Chris tied the knot.
They had a small ceremony for family, and then in October they repeated their marriage vows during a Quaker worship service.
Jen and Chris are still living apart together, but for them, the ultimate expression of their unconditional love is marriage.
Thirteen, most important is the existence of unconditional love, for if this exists, most of the above will be achieved.
13.
Most important is the existence of unconditional love.
For this exists for the survival of the seed.
Wonderful.
Thank you so much, Dad.
Dating While Grace audio production and mix is by Steve Lack Audio.
Theme music by D. Peter Schmidt.
Please like and follow Dating While Grey wherever you get podcasts.
That way you'll never miss an episode.
And if you're so inclined, leave a review letting everyone know what you love about us.
For more on the show, check out datingwhilegrey.com.
That's where you can find the Dating While Grey archive of episodes.
You can also find links to send me questions comments, tips and true stories through email and voicemail.
You know I love hearing from you.
While you're there, sign up for the free Dating While Grey, e-newsletter delivered every Friday to your inbox.
That's dating while gray.com.
I'm Laura Stassi.
Thanks so much for listening.
