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you guys get like the most excited you've ever been in your entire lives, okay?
So that they know it's time for them to come out.
All right, guys. One, two, three. Yeah.
What the fuck are you all doing here? This is insane.
This is really weird. It is. Thank you so much for coming to our second live.
Oh, one more time. Let's hear it for Liz and that Guy Fieri rap.
Okay. I will buy that kid's album. Seriously.
I love it. So what we're gonna do tonight is we're gonna do two cases for you guys.
What? We're going to do two cases. I'll do my case.
Is anybody surprised by that? It's a mini morbid.
It's totally mini morbid. And then Ash is going to do her case, but in between...
We're gonna do a fun trivia game where we're gonna test some of your serial killer and true crime knowledge.
We have a little gifty, little nifty-gifty for anybody who volunteers to do it.
We're not going to tell you what it is yet.
We'll tell you when we do it. You'll find out.
It's good. You'll love it. So I think without further ado, we're going to get it.
Did anybody come to the first live show?
We're doing the same cases. We're totally kidding.
We're not totally kidding. Just kidding.
We just wanted to piss you off real quick.
And also, you probably heard this at the first live show, but I feel like it's I just have a really quick little story about how dumb I am.
In high school, I was auditioning for a play.
And I had to respond to the person who was saying to me something like, injustice will be done.
And my line was supposed to say, amen. But I read it, ahem.
And I said it, like, vigorously. I was like, ahem!
So I feel like tonight will go better than that.
So that's... That's what I'm hanging on to right now.
I mean, it went better last time. It went better last time.
We're okay. So my case tonight is one some of you might know, Leopold and Lou.
Because I said this to a couple of people and they're like, I'm like, you'll know it.
It's Leopold. And they're like, no, I don't know what the fuck that is.
She texted it to me and I was like, yeah, I know what that is.
Also, my hand's shaking. So, Leopold and Loeb, we're going to start off, this is a night, we decided to do like roaring 20s murders because...
They're fun murders, you know. This was in 1924.
I'm going to start you off with two two quotes from the defense attorney and from the prosecution.
So you get a little idea of what this is going to be like.
So the prosecution said for this murder, This cruel and vicious murder, this gruesome crime, this atrocious murder, the most cruel, cowardly, dastardly murder ever committed in the Annals of American Judas Prudence.
And the defense attorney about this said, Everyone knows that this was the most unfortunate homicide.
They technically are. It wasn't one of those fortunate opposites.
It was pretty unfortunate. Bummer. That it is the cruelest, the worst, the most atrocious ever committed in the United States is pure imagination without a vestige of truth.
A death in any situation is horrible, but when it comes to the question of murder, it is doubly horrible.
But there are degrees of atrocity, and as I say, Instead of this being one of the worst, it is perhaps one of the least painful.
Which is like, whoa, defense attorney. I don't know if you can speak to that.
I feel like maybe the victim should speak to that, but okay.
So, we're going to start off with... This guy right here.
Nathan Freudenthal Leopold Jr. was born on November 19th, 1904.
To Florence and Nathan Senior, Chicago, Illinois.
Yeah. Sweetie. He could use Jonathan Van Ness to help him out.
Oh, girl. Yeah, he could. He was the youngest of three boys with brothers Michael and Samuel.
His parents were Jewish immigrants from Germany, and he was from a lot of wealth.
His father's half of the family was highly successful in the freight and shipping business.
And his mother's... His mother's... His mother's... I'm breaking, it's okay.
I have it. His mother's side had a bunch of successful bankers, because you know finance, money.
His father, in fact, was one of the wealthiest businessmen in Chicago at the time, and his family was super prominent, super well-respected, so you know it's all good.
He was incredibly smart from a young age.
Please ignore my hands shaking, they shake anyways. so he was super smart from a young age of course being so brilliant can be tough because it usually doesn't come with the whole social aspect of So he had some tough time making friends.
And this was also due to the fact that he was brilliant, but also the fact that he knew he was brilliant.
And he thought this made him superior to everybody else, so he kind of acted that way.
Unfortunately, you can know every single one of the first trillion digits of pi.
So he was also, as if that wasn't insufferable enough, he was also just a super dick about how rich he was.
Even though it's like, your parents are rich dick.
It's not you. You're like 15 right now. I'm unimpressed.
So unfortunately for Nathan, he was pretty ruthlessly bullied, which I'm never cool with.
Police are just universal. I think I can make that blanket statement without offending anybody.
Unless there's a police here. Someone's like real offended right now.
It was a different time. You've learned.
Changed your ways. So basically he was targeted for all the above reasons, and also because he was small, he was shy, He didn't really like any sports, and he also had a governess that would bring him to school, pick him up, so people were like, you're weird.
I love that, right? I think that's awesome.
The governess name was Matilda Sweetie Wants.
And she basically took over as a mother of the house. they adored her and she was apparently very like outrageous for the roaring 20s and she In a second you're gonna find out she really was outrageous, like that was an accurate description.
It wasn't just like, oh my God, she's wearing pants.
How outrageous. So she was exactly what you needed out of a replacement mom for like part of the time.
Except that there was also this part where she started sleeping with his 17-year-old brother and him when he was 12.
That's outrageous. Truly outrageous. Yes.
Someone got Jim from that. I say that all the time and no one gets it.
I'm always like, that's truly outrageous.
And everyone's like, yeah, it is. So he's way too smart for his age.
He's got a superiority complex stemming from his parents being wealthier than digits can comprehend at this point.
And he has a fucking governess because he's wealthy.
And his parents don't want to actually raise him themselves.
And the governess is sexually abusing him.
So, I mean... He's also small, he's shy, he's a boy in the 20s who hates 1920s gender-normative boy things like sports.
Really, what did anybody expect? Yeah, it's like, poor kid really didn't have a lot of options.
This guy. Yeah, this guy. Like at first I was like, oh, Nathan.
Then I read the West and I was like, oh, fuck you, Nathan.
That's why I got that kid. Now normally there would be someone to turn to to give a kid encouragement.
They could go to someone and be like, I'm being bullied.
But his brothers really didn't give a shit.
They were like, suck it up, vodka. And then his dad was off being a successful businessman.
His mom had apparently become bedridden with some weird illness when she was pregnant with him, so he was just kind of on his own.
One of his classmates was quoted as saying Nathan was very egocentric.
Practically all the time I was with him, In ordinary social conversation, he attempted by any sort of ruse possible to monopolize the conversation.
It didn't make any difference what was being said or what was being talked about.
He always attempted to get the conversation revolving around him so he could do most of the talking.
He thought his mentality was a great deal superior to any ordinary person.
Dick. So he took a very, this is also kind of funny, he took like a very intense interest in Ornithology?
Excuse me, what? Sounds fancy. It's the study of birds.
I don't know. He was a bird person. So that's like being any kind of like blah person.
I feel like you should just like... You don't want to transition from being like just a person to like a that person.
I don't know. I don't know. But just the fact that he was into birds made me like...
I don't like that. I don't know what it is.
Sorry if you're in birds. I think this is my husband's fault.
He fucking hates birds. I don't trust other people.
See, back there he's like shivering. He's like, we're birds.
So the summer before entering the University of Chicago however, he met A hot older guy by the name of Richard Loeb.
Hot is like him. I mean, he thought he was hot.
You have really high standards. I do. Just look at John back there.
He's back in the way. That's Lube. Oh, yeah.
It does nothing for me. But, like, fix your fucking tie.
Yeah. Or is that just a glare? I think that's just, like, slipped.
He's very like, I want one hair to be sticking up because I'm getting an alfalfa.
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Check it out at a Sleep Number store or sleepnumber.com today. was born on June 11th, 1905 in Chicago.
He was one of the youngest of four boys born into A super wealthy family.
That's how these two met. They were like, you're rich, I'm rich, we're dicks, cool.
His father, Albert Loeb, was a lawyer who became vice president of Sears Roebuck and Company.
Richard was like Nathan, In the sense that he was a young prodigy too, he was like super smart, like way too smart for his age.
He also had a governess as well. His governess did not sexually abuse him, so points to her.
She just read him stories and made him study and was an all-around mom to him.
She didn't do anything wrong, but there is something that can make Loeb a little relatable.
He was super into true crime. He was weirdo.
All right, Lo. All right. I don't want to make him one of us.
I was just going to say, like, continue hating him, though, because he's the worst.
But for a moment, I was like, all right.
Then I was like, no. Yeah. Okay. I had a feeling.
You nailed it. You're on this. I actually don't.
So he loved, like, detective novels, crime stories.
And he takes that way too far later. He was also the opposite of Leopold because He was outgoing.
He was popular. Somehow he got both sides of the equation because he was like super popular, super cool, and also super brilliant.
I love it. I told Debbie in the closet over there.
I was like, you know, I know a Gemini. He was the treasurer of his class.
He was seemingly an all-around charismatic individual.
Unfortunately, he was also kind of sheltered because his governess was really obsessed with getting him to just study, study, study, get good grades, be this amazing person.
So she kind of kept him in. He didn't really get a normal childhood.
He couldn't talk about this with his parents because, like Leopold, they weren't really concerned with actually raising him.
That's why they got a governess. They were like, yeah, you do that.
He was only 14 years old when he started classes at the University of barely did freshman year when I was supposed to.
That's a lot. That's a lot. And it was in October of 1919.
It's one of the crazy 1920s. Everybody's in prohibition.
You guys are on brand. We're bootlegging in here.
Let's do it. He didn't do great at the University of Chicago.
He didn't do awful, but he didn't do great.
Because he was just fucking too young to be in college.
But his governess kind of forced him to achieve it.
She ended up leaving the family at 19, 20 when he was 15.
Because his parents were like, oh, he's all done growing.
You can leave now. At 15? Yeah, they were like, he's fine.
He's fully covered. He's an adult. We don't need to raise him anymore.
He can try. He could have used a little more cooking, I think.
He said that this really affected him. because she was a real tough lady, but he relied on her for a lot, because she was basically like a surrogate mother.
So he said, quote, when she left, I sort of broke loose.
And that is like the fucking understatement of the century.
When you find out what this fucker did. It's like I just kind of broke loose a little.
It's like, dude. What did you do? He did so much.
So much. He looks like he has something in that chin.
He harbors it. His chin's so big because it's holding so many secrets. secrets.
So when he met Nathan Leopold in the summer before Nathan entered the University of Chicago at 15 years old.
So they were both like way too young to be in college.
He was already kind of in a bad state because his governess left.
That's the worst when that happens. You know how it is.
Your governess leaves, you're like, it put me in a bad place. but he was six months younger than Nathan but he acted like he was like this older cool guy because he had already been to college and he was like oh I know the ropes I'll teach you When they entered school in October 1920, Loeb was not really giving a shit about academics and really just wanted to join a frat.
Hell yeah. That was his shit. Even in 1920 he was like, I want to be a frat dude.
He was. He seems like a frat dude. I was going to say he was.
No offense to any frat dudes. No. We love you.
I love you. I swear. Don't make me funnel a beer.
No, please don't. He was slowly slipping into rebellion now, this guy.
And it was basically because of the government's piece.
Isn't it funny that once the hired nanny is gone, His parents were so ineffective that he literally like lost his shit.
Like his parents couldn't, he was like, that was it.
No one could help me. I had nobody anymore.
That was it. My nanny left, and I just decided to murder people.
I was as good as an orphan. Leopold, however, buckled down and wanted to graduate as quickly as possible because he really didn't like school because he got bullied.
So he's like, let's get the fuck out of here with my degree.
So he got tons of good grades. He spent a lot of his time studying.
Leopold eventually, the other one with the unibrow, Leopold Fell head over heels in love with Loeb.
But why? We can blame him. Me. With that deep heart.
That chin, though. That chin, though. The cream is the chin.
I will say, he has like a little bit of cheekbones going on, though.
Like, they're in there. I feel like he's suave for the 20.
Something's happening. This one's happening.
Yeah, we shouldn't shit in the room. I don't shit.
I mean, yeah, we should. Yes, yes. Yeah, we will.
We're getting there. Together they started doing shitty things together because, you know.
They're shitty. They started cheating at card games with their friends just for the thrill of cheating their friends out of fucking money.
That's right. Just friend things. Next, Loeb started drinking a ton and he would make Leopold drive him to a street near campus where he would run out of the car with a brick And smash all the parked cars windows while Leopold just like hung out with the kid in the car like, what?
What a birthday, what a time. Yeah, so fun.
When Loeb realized that his key to his mother's car, which was a Milburn electric car, which fit all the cars of the same make, He started stealing cars like that because he stole her key and made a copy of it.
So he would just steal cars. And then just like leave them in places. thrifty for him at that time.
Well, now they're fucking rich. It's like, dude, you guys are rich.
Just go spend your money. Why are you doing this shit?
That's what I would do if I was rich. I mean, you're supposed to know what to do.
Yeah, just go spend your money. What are you doing?
He was obviously going through something.
And the thrill of being an absolute shit flower was somehow easing that pain that was inside of him.
And he was just bringing me a hold. I feel like he's just along for the ride.
He is, but then later. There's a moment where you're like, oh, you have a lot inside of you as well.
Yeah, don't worry. You're like, yeah, stop that.
No, no, no, no. No, go right ahead. But Leopold's gonna, he's gonna shock you.
Okay. He comes out, like, with the, like, woo, here I come.
In the 20s. Yeah. When it happens, you're like, oh, shit, that's dark. so he started upping the ante with his criminal acts like each time like he needed This was all about the thrill.
This entire crime that they end up committing, just for the thrill.
There was no other reason for it. Like that's how fucked up they are.
It's always a scary motive. They're just bored rich kids and they were like, I feel like we can do this and get away with it.
So they started upping the antique. They started setting fires, smashing windows of storefronts.
He was saying that these little acts were like sexually thrilling to him.
Never good. And so whenever somebody's like, oh, when I like, destroy property or set fire to things, I like start getting a boner. like this is btkish right here that's what i'm saying So yeah, so it's going to end up real bad.
And right by his side this whole time was Leopold just being like, A little lackey, feeling like, I'll do anything to please you, love.
She's like, girl. So this was all building and building, and Leopold was becoming more and more willing to do literally anything for Loeb.
You can feel bad for like a second. And while Loeb was being more and more invested in his own narcissism, His constant need for thrills was creating fucking mayhem.
They were just doing so much shit. Then in 1921, Loeb decided he wanted to transfer to the University of Michigan, and they are, like, out of nowhere.
Was he leaving his mans? He was leaving his mans.
Oh, no. Obviously, Leopold lost his fucking shit.
Knew it. Because he was like, I can't live without you.
I'm in. So he did what anyone does in that situation.
Leopold transferred to the University of Michigan for no fucking reason except to follow Loeb to the University of Michigan.
Never chase a boy. Don't do that. Don't do it.
Because this doesn't end well. This is a cautionary tale.
It always is. And that fall, Leopold's mother, the unibrow, finally passed away from that mystery illness that she was bedridden from, so apparently it was real.
R.I.P. Mama. Yeah, R.I.P. Florence, I think?
Sure, Florence. I can't remember. He was devastated, like, that's sad.
And he stayed back in Chicago for the whole thing, like the memorial and all that good stuff.
When he got back to school at the University of Michigan, he was like, Loeb was like, yeah, I'm good with being friends with you anymore.
Like, out of nowhere, he was just like, nah, I'm over it.
Oh god. Yeah. So, yeah. And he was like, you know why I'm pledging Zeta Beta Tau fraternity?
Come on. And what happened was this fine association told him, you can't be friends with Leopold because he's a suspected gay.
And that's just not something we're cool with.
So Loeb was like, okay, I'll just cut him out.
Like, shut it. Fuck you, Loeb. Also a quick little side note, I hope somebody understands this.
Zeta Beta Tau keeps making me think of in Scream 2, which is arguably the best scream.
When Sarah Michelle Gellar is like, Omega Beta Zeta.
Every time I hear it, I was like, this is Cece.
Cece Cooper, Omega Beta Zeta. She's the sober sister.
She was great in that. I'm glad all the people knew that.
I love that. I had a friend who only answered his phone as Omega Beta Zeta.
It was awesome. So yeah, that's a little deep cut.
And I really do think this is one of the best screens.
It is. Right, if it's, like, Mickey, hello.
Hello. Timothy, like, Olaf, elephant, whatever the fuck his last name is.
It's definitely all of it. We're into it.
That's all we care about. It's Timothy. So now Leopold is devastated.
Just simply devastated. And he tried to hang.
But instead, he just transfers back to the University of Chicago.
I know. That's really sad. And that was in fall of 1922.
I mean, that's a lot. That's a lot. I don't know what the next slide is.
Oops. I went ahead. But whatever. Is that a child?
There we go. Okay, they kind of look alike.
They do. Yeah, they do. That's freaky. And also, without his unibrow leggings, all right.
He still has a unibrow. No, I meant, like, take away the unibrow.
Oh, oh, oh, I was like, girl, it's there.
No, keep her unbrowed. The 20s? So... So yeah, so what's crazy is once he got back to Chicago, he was so devastated, but he excelled so hard in school.
Like he was like, I'm going to put all my energy into school.
And he was super psyched about birds again.
We love a bird show. He even published two papers in scientific journals.
How about birds? What? Yeah! I know! Great!
Right? Like, I'm a scientist. I don't fucking publish paper for this kind of stuff.
God, shit. All right, but Leopold graduated with honors from the University of Chicago in March 1923.
And he was planning to start law school at the University of Chicago Law School.
Not the same law school, but you're a lawyer.
I was like, did you go there? I was like, you didn't go there, but go to law school.
You know law things. You know lawyers. You do know what they do.
Loeb graduated without honors from the University of Michigan in June 1923, and having earned whatever grades in undergrad, just like my grades.
He decided to pursue graduate work in American Constitutional History at, you guessed it, University of Chicago.
Because he's following his man. So Leopold and Loeb.
It's not good. They should have stayed apart.
So in September 1923, they became friends again.
Because Will was like, well, I'm not pledging that fraternity anymore, so we can be friends.
And Leopold was like, cool, cool, cool. All right.
And so, Loeb also charmed Leopold's pants off, literally, because they started sleeping together.
I mean, good job though. I was like, yeah, boys!
But I was like, oh, no. This is a bad thing.
Of course, Lowe still pretended outwardly to be a ladies' man.
He tried to be like Sebastian from Chrome Tensions and talk about the conquest.
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All right, back to the show. So this is when the two of them got back into committing relatively small crimes, again for the thrill of it.
And then they began to discuss... To discuss how easy it would be for two brilliant, wealthy fuckheads like themselves to commit the perfect crime.
Now, what is the perfect clinic? Well, to Loeb, it was kidnapping a child, killing said child, and then getting the ransom but not needing the ransom because you're fucking As a primer for this horrific idea, the two of them drove back to Ann Arbor with revolvers in their pockets.
And they broke into Loeb's old fraternity house.
Why? Yes, the omega betazation. And they were planning to rob them.
They were like, let's just draw this out real quick.
They stole $74 from the courtroom. So like, this is what I thought back then.
I mean sure, why not? I mean they're rich so it doesn't matter.
Well they stole some odds and ends. They also stole a portable typewriter which Leopold almost like blew his load over.
Everything I read about Leopold was like this typewriter.
Okay. Okay. Super awesome typewriter they have.
Awesome. But again, it was just for the thrill of getting away with being shit.
So Leopold was kind of pissed though because he was starting to feel like he was just being the lackey to Loeb, which he was.
And he was like, you know what, we're not sleeping together enough for me to be doing this for you.
Which, like, good for him. He's like, what am I getting here?
If you're gonna drag me on all these fucking excursions, you better up the ship.
So, Loeb was actually super annoyed by Leopold's, like, obsessively.
Just admiration of him. Come on. But he knew he was in too deep with this friendship and like obviously Leopold knew way too much shit now that he is done So he was like, you know what?
He was like, okay How about you keep committing crimes with me that will only escalate each time we do them and will probably lead to a horrific murder that will forever be known? and we won't be hated for it forever.
We can sleep together Three times every two months.
What? Like, schedule it. Like, Tuesday I'm free.
How about you? Three times every two months.
That seems like a piss-poor offer to me.
I don't like that offer. negotiate go back to the drawing like the board table and be like all right no this is my time yeah but yeah come on But Leopold was like, cool, cool, cool.
That works for me. That's fine. All right.
That's awesome. He's a down ass bitch. I know.
I'm here. I'm here for it. Damn. He is a down-ass bitch.
A down-ass bitch. Down-ass bitch. The original down-ass bitch, Leopold.
So literally right after committing this stupid fucking frat house burglary that didn't even get them anything except for that like... cream worthy type of food.
Sorry. That was so real. I'm getting very vivid, I'm sorry.
I don't know what's come over me today. So they immediately start planning the perfect crime because Lone was like fired up.
He's like, let's do this. So they thought they would kidnap a child, like they had talked about, demand the ransom through some, like, but they wanted to do some, like, intricate method of getting the ransom.
They didn't just want to be like, hey, give us $10,000 and we'll give you your kid back.
They were like, no, we're going to put it on a train.
We're going to send that train here. Then we're going to have them throw it out the window. in the cab, it's gonna go to a drugstore, then we're gonna call them again and we're gonna do this and clap three times.
Just stop, guys. Just stop. Because that was kind of his thing.
He just liked planning. Like, he was like, ooh, I love it.
Yeah, he just loved it. He just loved it.
He's sparky big time. He really did. He was like, that's my thing.
So after demanding ransom from the parents through some crazy-ass method, they would of course kill the child because they were looking to get away with this shit. and you can't keep someone alive that could possibly identify you for the useless shitbags that you are.
So up until this point, it looks like Leopold is the sad lackey, like we were saying.
Like, maybe we should just kind of, like, pity him.
Maybe he's sad because his governess was weird and outrageous and, like, and not unibrow.
I'm here to say wrong. Wrong. So as soon as they start talking about this, Leopold is like, so I have this little fantasy that maybe Step back, because weird little Leopold has a fantasy.
And it involves a group of, he just is like, I always think of this, like a group of German soldiers just assaulting a French woman.
Excuse me? And it's like, what? You know, it just pops into my fucking memory every now and then.
It's so detailed. It's like I have this fantasy.
He was like, and sometimes in this fantasy, he was a soldier and he participated in this, but sometimes.
Which is like, so in your fantasy, you're also a fucking useless lackey?
Like in your wildest dreams, you're like, and I just sat there and watched.
It was great. So he was like, because of this, can we kidnap a girl so I can assault her and live out this fantasy?
Don't worry, they don't. Spoiler alert. So now after probably staring at the school in silence for like 10 minutes, Lo was like, No.
You can't do that. That's not... Because apparently this was where he drew the line in the set.
He's like, that's real fucked up. No, that weird French woman fantasy is where we don't do that.
I just keep thinking of me and being like, what if you're French woman?
But I bet she wouldn't say it. But no. And he was like, so let's just kidnap a boy because you're weirding me out, Leopold.
So all throughout the winter of that year, they meticulously planned this scenario out.
During the winter quarter, details of the kidnapping plan grew bigger and bigger.
They figured they would somehow get a random boy into their car, probably using Leopold's charm and charisma because, you know, he's got that in spades.
Then they would get him unconscious somehow, which I love how they're like, we'll just get him unconscious, it'll be fine. human, like it's hard to get someone unconscious, which they find out later, by the way, spoiler alert.
So, so far this plan is shit. They're just like, we're going to get him in the car somehow.
We're going to knock his ass out somehow.
We'll figure it out this week. You probably don't want to be just ad-libbing, like, improv-ing this as you go.
So they were going to get him unconscious, and once they had an unconscious boy in the car, they would then go to some predetermined spot near the border of two states.
And they would hide the body in this random drainage dish.
So they figured the drainage pipe would create an environment that would quickly decompose the body. and flowing water in the hot summer heat, which I'm not wrong.
But they sucked at it, so it didn't get to that point.
They sucked at murder. Now, Loeb is showing his diabolical side because when they're discussing this and they're like, how are we gonna kill the kid?
That's important. His main focus was that they both needed to be killing him.
Like, one of them was not gonna be more culpable than the other, so they were like, We're both going to kill him at the same time.
So they were like, let's just strangle him by yanking on a rope together.
It's both of us just, whoo. That's horrific.
Logistically, that makes no sense. I have no idea how this is going to work.
It's like the worst game of chess I've ever heard.
Yeah, it really is. That was kind of gross, sorry.
It was. No, it really was gross, but it was important.
Hashtag morbid. So they decide $10,000 was a good random amount because they didn't give a shit either way since the money was not the point.
So they're like, $10,000, sure. The point was just pure thrill. but how they were going to get the ransom while still maintaining their anonymity anonymity anonymity there you go i can never say worse that was a big one That was good.
Good job. Because I can't say that stuff.
Their plan for this was complicated. Which again got a little all hot and bothered.
So the Michigan Central train from Chicago to Boston, yeah Boston!
Deported. Departed from Central Station at 12th Street and Michigan Avenue each day, and the train left Central Station at 3 o'clock every day.
18 minutes later, it stopped at 63rd Street Station.
You're probably like, why the fuck are you telling me this, Elena?
I don't give a shit. Another lie I was.
I figured you were. I could feel that. You were like, stop.
No one cares. It's recording. They figured they would call the father of this boy that they killed and tell him to go to the pharmacy on 63rd Street. next to the train station and they told him, we're gonna tell him to wait for a call.
When they called again, it would be to tell him to get on the train that would be coming from Central Station.
He would be told to walk to the caboose. and look in the telegraph box where they would have stashed a letter ahead of time.
This is so fucking stupid. This is far too public.
Like, I'm already like, nope, not doing it.
I'd be like, you know what, just keep the cake.
I'd be like, you know what, this is too much.
I have like five more. Yeah, I got a few more.
It's fine. It's too much. The letter would say quake, quake, quake, quake, quake.
It was going to say, hey, throw your ransom from the train five seconds after it passes the red brick water tower that belonged to the champion manufacturing company.
This random thing had to be in a cigar box, by the way.
That was specific. So this person had to go buy a cigar box, put the ransom in it, Throw it from the train five seconds after it passes this, like, fucking brick building.
That's too much. And by their calculation, the box would hit somewhere between like around 74th Street and they would just be close to it and they would just grab it and run.
It seems real dumb to me, because it's like, what?
So you're just going to run up to it and be like, oh, that's mine!
They're trying to be anonymous here and they're like, we'll just run out the middle of the street and grab it.
It's fine. No worries. Now they rehearsed this.
They went through it together. Like they got on the train, they threw it out of the thing, they were like real serious about this.
Well, and it worked. When they rehearsed it, it worked.
So they were like, all right, let's do this.
You know the perfect crime. Yeah, and they decided they needed a rental car because Leopold drove some fancy douche rocket car.
And they figured it would be, like, too suspicious because somebody was going to be like, oh, look, there's that douche rocket car.
And they could spot it again. I know that.
You know that one. I know that asshole. So they adopted alter egos and they got a renter car.
Yeah, good for them. On Tuesday, May 20th, Leopold went into a drugstore.
He asked for a pint of hydrochloric acid, And then he casually said, and let me have a half pint of ether also.
Because I'm feeling crazy today. And the pharmacist was like, hey, why do you need that acid?
He was just like, you want to tell me? And Leopold was like, an experiment.
And then he spurred you big time to add the seniors.
Like he literally told him that and the pharmacist was like, Cool, here you go.
And you just gave it to him, like, no questions asked.
Here you go. Here's hydrochloric acid and ether.
You're probably fine. Do with it what you want.
Yeah, you have a severe unibrow. Everything's growing out.
Nothing weird is going to happen at all.
It's just, yeah, there you go. I'm trying to take care of that.
I will do anything. That's the experiment.
Yeah, it's an experiment. While he was doing that, Loeb went to the hardware store on Cottage Grove Avenue, and he brought a rope and a sharp chisel.
Yikes. Those are not casual items to buy.
Don't go to Lowe's and expect that you're going to get away with that.
Don't be like, I just need a rope and a chisel, please.
Go separately? Yeah, that's fine. Wednesday, May 21st was the day they picked to commit the crime.
Um, they, oh, by the way, they also composed the ransom note on that fucking typewriter.
Of course they did. Which Lea Polder's probably like, yes!
He's like, nothing less. Every time it shoots over, he's like, oh!
Shit! Party big time! Party big time over and over again.
So on Wednesday, May 21st, they were like, we're going to do this.
It's happening. So the full plan. They were going to pick up Loeb at 11, go back to Leopold's house to get the sharp-ended chisel, the tape, cloth to gag the kid.
The ether, the acid, a flashlight, and boots because shoes.
And it was muddy. Just the essentials. These two fuckers are not getting muddy, that's for sure.
Well, they don't look like they want to.
So they were like, we need boots. And they were going to get the car from the rental place using the fake name Morton Ballard.
Seems legit. I would believe one of them was Morton Ballard.
I think maybe they were. Yeah, that makes sense.
They were going to bring Leopold's ostentatious rich kid car back to his house.
Drive the rental car to a restaurant called Kramer's.
Have a little lunch. Gotta fuel up. Then they would both drive to Jackson Park and wait for all the kids to start coming out of school at the Harvard school nearby.
And this is when they would choose a boy walking all alone.
And the Harvard School was like a private elite school, so they knew any of these boys were going to have rich-ass parents, so they were like, we'll just grab any of them.
Any of them, kill them. They would kill the boy together, of course, because Loeb was like, no way is one of us getting more of this than the other.
They were gonna use the rope. They were both gonna pull it together.
Both of them had loaded revolvers on their person in case shit went awry, which it was likely going to.
And they were, like I said, they were willing to kid-brag like any old kid that was walking through Harvard, but they did have their, like, you know, top fantasy list of kids that they've already, like, checked out.
Not weird at all. That made me so uncomfortable.
So their dream list of victims. They discussed each of these kids as they were watching them come out because they both had agreed on the kid, of course.
One of these boys was named Armand Deutsch.
I want to say, I was going to say douche.
Not douche. Deutsch, I want to say. He was 11 years old.
He went to the Harvard School. And he was the grandson of Julius Rosenwald.
You know him, right? He's definitely rich.
He was the president of Sears Robot Company.
Rich. Now remember... One of their fathers was So these guys are thinking this is brilliant.
They're going to go for kids that are connected.
They're like, you know what? We're going to go to kids that are close to us because it'll be easy.
We'll be able to get them in the car. But it's like, yeah, they're also connected to you, you fucking dumbasses.
And the next one that they were thinking of getting was was Johnny Levinson.
Johnny's father was Saul Levinson, and he was one of the wealthiest attorneys in Chicago.
The boy was nine years old. No, too young.
Don't worry, they don't take him. Spoiler alert.
Because when I heard that, I was like, oh no, he's nine.
Like, don't do that. They're like, take one of the older ones.
Don't take one of the older ones. Take one of the 14.
Is that a 11-year-old? He's seen some shit.
You can take him. A nine? No. And this kid, Johnny Levinson, was in the same class Lowe's younger brother, Tommy.
So that was like a little too cool. I'm like, wait.
So they're just choosing kids that have connections to Lowe.
I don't understand why. Loeb is like, yeah, I don't know if I want to have this too.
All of a sudden he's like, you know what, the connections might be a bad thing.
But then they saw Johnny Levinson come out.
Yeah, I want him. So he just walked out.
And he walked up to Johnny Levinson, and he's like, oh, hey, Johnny, you're in my brother's class.
That's fine, right, that I'm talking to you?
And he was like, what are you doing after school, kid?
And the kid was like, I'm going to play baseball on 49th Street, I guess.
And Loeb was like, cool, see you later. Then he went back to Leopold and he was like, this is perfect.
We're going to go. We're going to watch this kid play baseball.
It's like, what the fuck? You're going to go watch him play baseball and kidnap him.
That's weird. We're going to watch him play baseball.
Then we're going to kidnap Johnny. kill his ass and then the whole plan's gonna go great.
So this was the plan now, Johnny Levinson, he's the guy.
So Leopold went home to get his glasses because Of course he didn't.
I know this is important, but I forgot my glasses.
And Lube was like, all right, I'll go to the drugstore.
He looked up Johnny's address in the telephone book.
And this way, they figured they could follow him home and snatch him on his way home.
Like monsters, like heinous monsters. Now, drugstores back then, by the way, were like They had like an ice cream counter and like candy shit.
Like it wasn't like Rite Aid today. And so like you get like root beer floats and shit.
And then they just had like telephones and telephone books.
Like it was weird. Because when I first read that, I was like, you went to the drugstore to look up the address?
Like what? But you know, they didn't have Google.
So, you know, what are you going to do? So it was a trip.
When they got back to the baseball lot, they were like, all right, let's do this.
But the game was over. Because they're fucking stupid.
Like, they're so smart, but so stupid. Baseball games last, like, a good amount of time.
They do. That's why I take you to get your fucking I think Leopold has like an array of tortoise shell glasses and he's like, I don't know which one's gonna work today.
Which ones match these boots? Yeah, which ones match the boots?
So the game was over. Johnny was gone. They missed their opportunity, and Johnny lived.
So yay, Johnny. Can you imagine being Johnny after this and being like, holy shit.
Thank God we, like, killed that other team in baseball and we got to go home early.
The town of Agde in France is famous for sun, sand, sea and sex.
But lately life on the coast has taken a strange turn.
The town's mayor, a respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption.
His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant.
Then there's the mysterious phone calls that local people have been getting.
I am the Archangel Michael. The whole town has been thrown into chaos.
As the mayor is unable to carry out his duties, I would like to address you all.
Legal proceedings have been initiated. Join me, Anna Richardson, and journalist Leo Schick for The Mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption, and magic.
Binge all episodes of The Mystic and the Mare exclusively and ad-free right now on Wondery+.
Start your free trial in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or the Wondery app.
So they kept driving around for lone children to snatch, like fucking monsters.
Because they were like, we're not done. Today's the day.
Johnny didn't work out, but we're doing it.
So at one point they went back to Leopold's house and just watched kids play. the corner gross gross you're not supposed to do that and it turned out that because they were like all right we'll just watch these fucking kids play we'll wait for one of them to wander off by themselves and Don't just snatch them.
Bummer for them because they were all hanging out with each other and none of them loved each other by themselves.
Because they were all smart kids who were like buddy system.
So at this point it's like 4.30 p.m. They've been at it for a couple hours.
So Leopold's like, oh, let's do this tomorrow.
We gotta get back to that time murder. Fuck, I just want to type shit.
He's like in his room just staring at the typewriter.
He's like, can we do this tomorrow? Can we leave?
And Loeb is like, well, let's just try one more drive.
If we don't find a good one, we'll go back at it again tomorrow and you can go back to your typewriter.
So Leopold drove and Loeb sat behind him in the backseat.
A little past 5 p.m., Loeb saw someone. a boy about 14 years old walking alone.
He was walking around Ellis Avenue And according to the book that I was looking at a lot of this information for called For the Thrill of It by Simon Betts.
This is me in it, so I feel like it's like, whoo.
This boy was wearing a tan jacket, just to set the scene.
Wearing a tan jacket with matching knee trousers.
Adorable. Like knee trousers. That's so cute.
A colored shirt. a necktie, and he had brown shoes on and black and white checkered socks.
What a little nugget. Love it. So Loeb leans forward.
Leopold and says, that's the kid. And Leopold looks over and is like, That's your fucking cousin, you goddamn nutbag.
That's not verbatim, but like it feels like it.
I feel like he was like are you fucking kidding me?
That's your fucking cousin? It was his cousin.
And this little fucker in the backseat is like, that's the kid.
He's like, what's your fucking cousin? So Lob's like, oh, Lob.
Lob is like... Someone's like, that's fine.
He's the kid. What? I'm not alright. Is that the kid that I saw?
That's the kid. Can we go past him now? Because I'm upset.
I'm really sorry. The boy's name was Bobby Franks.
He was 14 years old. He was Moab's fucking cousin.
Loeb had actually played tennis with him the day before.
Are you shitting me? Yeah. So they followed him, pulled up alongside him, and Loeb yelled out, Hey, Bob.
Hey, cuzzo. What up, Bob? And he looked at them, pushed open the passenger side door and said, hello, Bob.
I'll give you a ride. He said, hey, Bob, so many times.
He was like, hey, Bobber. And Bobby, right?
Bobby was like, no, thanks, I'll just walk.
I was like, good for you, Bob. And then he was like, no, come on in the car.
I want to talk to you about the tennis racket you had yesterday.
I want to get one for my brother. And this kid loved tennis, so he was like, Oh shit, okay, we'll talk about a tennis racket.
Am I going to cry on stage? Maybe. So Bobby agreed.
He's 14. At least he's not like nine. You know, he's seen some shit, like you said.
So Bobby was like, so Loeb is like, you know Leopold, right?
And in this, when I was reading the book, he was like, you know Leopold, right?
And I thought Bobby was going to be like, oh yeah, I know Leopold.
But he said, you know Leopold, right? And he said, no.
And that was it. Like, they didn't explain it.
He was like, oh, well, that's Leopold. And he was like, you don't mind us taking you around the block, do you?
And Bobby said, quote, certainly not. He wanted to go for like a drive with his older cousin.
Sure did. That's awful. The two talked about tennis, and when Bobby turned back around to look forward...
Lobe grabbed the chisel. The fucking chisel?
Grabbed Bobby with his left arm, covering his mouth, and then he smashed the blood side of the chisel down on his skull.
Then he did it again harder, but Bobby was still conscious because remember, you don't just knock people unconscious just by being like, boop!
Like, that doesn't happen. I hate that you know that.
I know. Shit. Just remember that. I'm not going for any tries with you.
So he did. So Bobby turned around to face Lope, looked him in the fucking eye.
His little cousin is like, what the hell are you doing with that chisel?
He's like, how dare you? Why are you beating me in the head?
And he turned around, he looked at him, and that's when Loeb... smashed two more hard blows onto his forehead.
The fourth one created a legitimate hole in his forehead. gross, I know.
Blood went everywhere, because head wounds are crazy messy.
So it went all over both of them. It was all over the inside of the car, the rental car, by the way, so they did not think this one through.
Yeah, that was dumb. Like, what are you doing?
Still, the boy was conscious. Are you with a fucking hole in his head?
Yeah, it happens. But he's bleezing. He's bleezing everywhere.
I'm not really sure. I think I'm broken.
I don't know what happened. I need to get plugged in.
I don't know. I need to charge. So he's causing a scene.
So Loeb just yanks Bobby into the backseat.
Which is like some next level shit. And he took the cloth they brought and he just jammed it as hard as he could down his throat and taped it over his mouth.
I need to take a deep breath now. Bobby's dead now.
That was the end of that. So not exactly how they planned it. with both of them lovingly yanking on a rope together.
That wasn't at all what happened here. Now, Bobby's on the floor in the back seat, And the entire car is covered in blood.
So they drove to that predetermined place about 20 minutes away, Gary.
It was only a bit past 6 p.m. and it wasn't dark out.
And they were like, we need nightfall to dispose of this body.
And then they were like, I'm hungry. Are you hungry?
Starving, because murder. Yeah. So you know.
So Leopold grabbed some hot dogs and two root beers and they just sat in the car and had some hot dogs and some root beer.
All fucking things to eat. Yeah, you know, I know hot dogs.
I like that that's what I'm talking about.
I don't know why. I know you're like, I'm all the things to eat. fucking hot dog from a convenience store.
Disgusting. Especially from a convenience store after you just like, I don't know, murdered your cousin.
Yeah, not cool. So once it got dark, they rolled Bobby onto the blanket that they brought and carried him into the ditch.
They removed his clothing, and Leopold poured the bottle of hydrochloric acid on Bobby's face.
This was intended to burn the skin and render him unidentifiable.
Then, and this makes me question his supposed intelligence.
This is weird. So Leopold poured the rest of the acid onto Bobby's Never reasons.
He did this because someone told him once, you could be identified by the goddamn shape of your junk.
That's not true. It's not true. It's not true.
I'm here to stay for the record. That's not true.
Like, they don't show up to a dead body and be like, oh my god, the face has been mutilated.
Look at this. He has no teeth. Look at that penis.
That's Jim. That's him. We really did it.
Let's call the family. Let's get him down here.
And I love that Leopold was like, this must be true.
Like, what thought process is that? Like, oh, Leopold.
Oh, Leopold. I'm not about it. He then shoved the body into the ditch and threw into the drainage pipe because he was like, no one will find it here.
Another spoiler alert. I'm just getting you guys ready.
This is an intense case. I don't want to shock anybody too much.
So as they walk back to the car... Leopold thought he heard something fall to the pavement.
And he was like, what was that? But he flashed the flashlight.
He didn't see anything. And he was like, oh, it's just my crazy imagination.
It's not. Spoiler alert. It'll come back.
So they drove back into town. They went to the drugstore, purchased a postage stamp and they sent the random letter to Bobby's father.
Now, when I read this, I was like, so you went straight to the pharmacy Were you both, like, completely covered in blood when you went in there?
Right. And was this the same pharmacist that was like, what you doing with acid in here?
And he was like, experiment. And he's like, okay.
And then they come in and he's like, still experimenting.
And they're like, sure are. So that's kind of weird.
So they sent the letter, then they went back to Loeb's house, they burned all of Bobby's clothing, because they're trying to be smart about this.
Then they went back to the drugstore and they called Bobby's father Jacob.
And they wanted to let him know that the ransom letter was going to be on the way tomorrow.
Like they were going to call him and be like, just stay by your mail.
The ransom letter's coming. And that's like one of these Ozo's uncles.
So Leopold is the one speaking because it's .
Leopold spoke with Flora Franks, the mother, because Jacob Franks was out that evening.
And he said, quote, this is Mr. Johnson, which is kind of funny.
Your boy has been kidnapped. We have him and you need not worry.
He is safe. He's not. But don't try to trace this call.
We must have money. We will let you know tomorrow that what we want.
We are, this part's just funny. We are kidnappers and we need business.
We need business, mister. And if you refuse us what we want or try to report us to the police, we will kill your boy.
Then they hung up on her and Leopold drove Lope home.
Now on the way home, Loeb realized, he was fiddling around in his pockets, and he realized, oh shit, I have the chisel still in my pocket that's covered in blood.
Again, super smart, just tossed it out the window.
And at that moment when he tossed it out the window, a night watchman named Bernard Hunt Just stepped out and picked it up.
He was like, huh, it's a chisel covered in blood.
Weird. So he looked up and was like, oh, there's that car. that I'm going to remember, and I'm going to report later and testify about it.
Amazing. So, good job, Bernard. So well done, boys.
Leopold had a chauffeur, because of course he did.
His name was Sven Englund and he testified later that he saw the boys scrubbing the interior of the rental car the next morning.
And Leopold was weird and shifty about it and claimed he had just spilled wine in the car.
Lots and lots of wine. Lots of very coagulated wine.
Very weird. I don't know what happened. Now it was ransom time.
So they set up that whole train business where Loeb left the ransom note and the telegraph box and the train's caboose, all that shit.
So Leopold called Jacob Franks, the boy's father, and said, quote, this is George Johnson speaking.
There will be a yellow cab at your door in 10 minutes. get into it and proceed immediately to the drugstore at 1465 East 36th Street.
Jacob Franks asked, could I have a little more time?
He's like, I have a morning meeting. He's like, I have shit to do.
Can I do this later? And they said, quote, no, sir, you can't have any more time.
You must go immediately. Click. Now, Where am I?
So as they were going back, I was like, no, he had a chauffeur.
No, he didn't. So as they're going back to the train station, and they think they have this ship wrapped up, they're like, we're doing this.
They just noticed like the Chicago Daily Journal is out and it's saying on the front page that police had found a young boy's new body in a ditch. body of Bobby Franks had been found less than 24 hours after these fuckers murdered and dumped him in there.
He was unidentified at this moment. But that was going to change soon.
This was obviously not part of the plan.
He was not supposed to be found literally the next day.
So they abandoned the ransom plan now because they were like, well, now he's dead.
He's going to be identified. whatever, so whatever, we don't need the ransom anymore, we're just gonna go with this.
Everyone in their respective homes was also talking about the murders.
Because this was huge news. So like both their parents are like, can you believe that boy got murdered?
And they're like sitting there just like.
Getting off on this whole thing because everybody's talking about it.
They're like stroking the typewriter He's just sitting there just like typing and being like everyone is wild So not everyone is wild and is writing an editorial about it.
Sorry, I'm sick. And so Loeb even talked to a reporter the next day and said, quote, If I was going to murder any bullet buddy, he was just the kind of cocky little son of a bitch that I would pick.
Wait, he said that in an interview before he was caught?
Sure did. He was like, I didn't murder them.
But if I did. He OJ'd before OJ. If I didn't.
If I didn't. It would be that cocky little son of a bitch that I did it, which is like, oh my God.
You can't be like that. Sweet little boy.
Who could have done that? no he was just like yeah i would have done that too that puts you like top of the list for something right so also this is like them discovering the ditch with Bobby's body in it unfortunately.
So then it was revealed that the body was Bobby Frank's and the hydrochloric acid had just discolored his face.
It had not burned his skin. And the thing that Leopold thought he dropped, but he couldn't find anything?
Was it his glasses? That was just his distinctive tortoise shell glasses.
I fucking knew it. So Thursday, May 29th, 1924, Leopold.
Was about to take a group of school children to look at fucking birds.
I told you it's weird. Someone in the audience likes birds and now hates you.
Just don't murder school children and then take them to see birds.
That's weird. I don't know. That's weird.
It just keeps coming around that's all And police showed up at his home and said they wanted to take him to the state's attorney's office And then they asked him Hey, Leopold, do you have glasses?
And he was like, sure do. And they were like, did you lose those glasses?
And he was like, no. And they were like, where are they?
And he was like, I don't know, they're somewhere at my house.
So they were like, why don't you find those fucking glasses while we sit here?
So we pretended to look around and obviously could not find the glasses, and they were like, yeah, why don't you come with us real quick, because we have something to tell you.
There's the glasses. So they brought both he and Loven for questioning separately. through the glasses matching handwriting samples from the envelopes in one of Leopold's maids confirming that he owned that stolen typewriter. that the notes were typed on, the case was starting to just close in on them pretty easily.
And then Sven England, the chauffeur, He came in and was like, yeah, the boys were driving a second unknown car on the day of the murders. because Leopold's car was in the garage all day and Leopold had told the police I was driving my douche rocket car all day and he was like Direct quote.
He was not. It was in the garage all day.
Because that fucker like came up to him and was like, fix my brakes.
And then just dropped it off. So he remembered that.
He was like, he was a dick. He dropped that car off, told me to fix his brakes.
I'm just a chauffeur. I don't fix cars, so I remember that.
So he smashed their aisle alibi to pieces right there, which, like, good job, Sven.
And Bernard Hunt also testified that he was like, oh yeah, I saw them throw a bloody drizzle from the fucking car.
So on May 31st, 10 days after the murder, Loeb, which is shocking, was the first one to break down and confess. but each one of them put the shit on the other one.
So like, true love. True love. They were just like, no, he did it.
He totally did it. I'm just the wacky. Leopold admitted that they did it purely for the thrill of it.
He said to a reporter quote, a thirst for knowledge is highly commendable.
No matter what extreme pain or injury it may have inflicted upon others.
A six year old boy is justified in pulling the wings from a fly.
If by doing so he learns without wings, the fly is helpless.
The fuck? That is not the same thing. No.
That's also a really dark analogy. Also, like, no.
As a six-year-old, you should not be pulling wings off of things.
That's not okay. Wings off of things. Don't pull wings off of things.
There he is in his jail cell wearing like a 15 piece suit.
And he's like... He's like, can you bring my typewriter?
I found it. Where's my typewriter? I hate this.
So the state's attorney, Robert Crowe, He looks like a bird.
That's not Robert Crowe, actually. That's the other guy.
Robert Crowe's next. Hold on. There's Robert Crowe.
He's more adorable. He was up against the defense attorney, which was Clarence Darrow, which was a famous lawyer.
He looks like a character in Harry Potter.
He really does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Nailed it.
Yeah. I mean, that skin has seen some shit.
That shit has seen some bad shit, Harper's Secrets.
And I like the little, like, hair just flopped in front of his face.
Like, it's like, I'm sassy. I'm kind of sassy.
And then this adorable man. That's a situation all in itself.
I don't know. I feel like his name is Eugene.
So they were looking for the death penalty against them.
So July 21st, 1924, they began trial. And it wasn't a matter of proving their innocence because they confessed, but they wanted to see if their age, which at the time they were 18 and 19 years old.
They were pretty young. Are you kidding me?
Yeah, they were super young. Wow. They wanted to prove that their age, their confessions, the fact that they said they pleaded guilty.
And the possibility of getting them denied insane could help their thing.
They were not insane. They were totally sane.
William Allenson White, the president of the American Psychiatric Association, testified that they were both they were both completely neglected as children by their parental figures, which like, yeah, they were.
And they said that the abuse from the governess probably had something to do with them turning into Hugh Jessels.
Hugh Patrick, president of the American Neurological Association, William Crone and Harold Singer, who were authors of The Insanity of the Law, And Archibald Church, professor of mental disease and medical jurisprudence at Northwestern University, all said that neither one of them had any indication of insanity or mental defect.
They all were like, nope, we're like the gods and goddesses of this subject and they are fucking sane.
They did it. They did it exactly. I was like, whoop whoop.
So September 10th, 1924, the sentencing was broadcast across the city.
Their age is what kept them from the gallows because they did decide not to do the death penalty.
I'm like kind of glad though, like live with that. about it every day.
They each got 99 years for the kidnapping and then life in prison for the murder.
The judge said, The court believes that it is within his province to decline to impose the sentence of death on persons who are not full age.
This determination appears to be in accordance with the progress of criminal law all over the world and with the dictates of enlightened humanity.
Same. In 1936, inside of Statesville Prison, James Day, a prisoner serving a sentence for grand larceny stabbed Loeb in the shower room, and despite trying to fix him on up, he died at 30 years old of his wounds.
Leopold served 33 years in prison and then got paroled in 1950.
Oh shit. Yeah. It's huge. He moved to Puerto Rico.
He got a degree in social work at the University of Puerto Rico.
He wrote about fucking birds again. And now he was writing about tropical birds because he was everywhere.
He had to live a damn life. He did. Fuck that guy.
That's not fair. And in 1961, he got married.
Who fucking married him? Yeah, I don't know.
Some lady. Peppered. A bird. A bird buried in his house.
That's what happened. In August 29, 1971, he died at the ripe young age of 66 of a heart attack in Puerto Rico.
Enjoy that heart attack. I'm glad your heart rebelled against you.
And just to end on something, Two fun facts.
In letters from prison, Loeb referred to his parents as Mopsy and Popsy.
That's like disturbing. I hate that. Leopold and Loeb were called Dickie and babe throughout the trial and I hate that and now you all have to know that too.
And I just didn't want to be alone with that.
Dickie and babe. Who called them that? I'm so sorry.
I don't really know. But there's them whispering to each other during the trial.
There's them with great cheekbones, I will say.
They really look so much alike. That looks contours.
He got the Kim K. Palette. He did. He really did.
It's true. So that is the story of Leopold and Blue.
You did so good. Thank you. You're a badass.
I'm sweating. Same, and I'm like wearing a tank top.
And a fancy blazer. Alright, so now... I need to like shake it out for a second.
I'm like nervous. Oh look, I put up a picture of Ash.
See the resemblance. All right, guys. So I'm going to talk to this girl, Thelma Todd.
I hand-wrote my notes because my notes are too fucking long to type with.
Okay. Side note. I almost took a video of her last night to put in this slideshow being like, Because it was hilarious.
It's really fucking hard. I was dedicated to the game.
You're very dedicated. It's fine. Whatever.
Okay. So Thelma Todd was an actress in the mid-1920s and 30s who was found dead in her car on the morning of December 16, 1935.
I'm like trying to figure out how to comfortably hold this.
I feel like I'm reading you like a bedtime story.
That's a pot of ten. Can you start snapping next to me?
What better thing to talk about at this live show than a possibly murdered actress?
That's what I asked myself. That's what we're here for.
Yeah, so we're going to go back to the beginning and I'll paint you this really beautiful but gruesome picture of what happened.
Love it. So Thelma was born July 29th, 1906. in Lawrence, Massachusetts.
Not a Boston girl, Massachusetts. Her parents were John and Alice, which are like, Thelma's dad was involved in the town politics as superintendent of the streets.
Which sounds like he has street cred. He's running those streets.
I think he just like was in charge of like what went on the streets.
And her mom was probably a stay-at-home mom because it was like 1906 and she couldn't even wear pants yet.
Thelma did really good in school and after high school she went to college to pursue her dream of becoming a teacher.
Awesome as fuck. Thelma's mom really wanted her to compete in beauty pageants.
She was like, you're fucking gorgeous. What are you doing teaching?
So she did that. What are you doing teaching?
She's like, don't waste your time. Stop holding your lines, you're pretty.
Well, I'm just saying what her mom was like.
So, Thelma was like, yeah, sure, whatever.
And she actually won the title of Miss Massachusetts in 1925.
And she also competed in the Miss America pageant, which is fancy.
But it's fine. So while she was there, she caught the eye of some Hollywood scouts.
She started acting in short films, which...
They were primarily silent films at the time, but then later on she gets to start talking in her films.
If you go to the next slide, this is her and Zazu Fitz.
That's actually a picture of me and Ash.
I see the results. That's us recording the podcast.
That's kind of what my coat looks like. I love it.
so how roach was the producer slash director that had the idea of setting them up together because he thought it was time for a female comedy duo it was progressive as fuck yeah um he also worked with Laurel and Hardy, if you're familiar with them.
So Thelma and Zazu were like the female version of them.
Zazu and Thelma did films together like Show Business, The Pajama Party, which I feel like that's the pajama party for sure.
You know, like that saucy robe. That's very saucy.
And they also played in Asleep in the Feet, which sounds painful.
What now? I don't know. Zazie and Thelma did over a dozen films together in just three years.
But Zazie wanted more money because she was like, I'm awesome and I'm a great silent actress.
Very expressive with my face. And Hal Roach was like, yeah, I don't want to give you more money.
So Zazu left. And she was replaced by Nixon. also you.
It's like being you again. Perfect. They did films like Beauty and the Bus and Three Chumps Ahead in 1935.
Although she started in silent films, like I said, Thelma went on to talking in her films, which is good.
Eventually they started calling her the ice cream blonde and hot toddy.
Hot toddy. That's what I call you. I'm like, hot toddy, yeah.
Do you? Since when? I do, I call you that.
Let's make that a thing. I call you that behind your back.
That's what I'm talking about. This is such a hot topic.
That's me. So Thelma starred in a film called The Corsair, which was directed by Roland West.
And if you want to see him. And you can go to the next slide.
I do want to see him. He's like nothing special.
No. Yeah. Got that open thing going on.
I really hate that so much. I hate that so much.
He does. He has like a lack of brow. Like it's gone over here.
Poor guy. I'm confused. So Thelma thought he was awesome.
She was like, you're a hottie-tottie, like myself.
And they started hanging on the low. And by hanging on the low, I mean he was married and they were having an affair.
Not very low. No. On the low. Their affair was really off and on again, so when Thelma met Pat, I think it's DeSicco, and I want to say that because he sucks, so that's just what I'm going to call it.
DeSicco. It's probably DeTrick. but I'm gonna say a sicko.
Whatever. And fell in love? I wrote fell in love question mark because it doesn't sound like love to me.
She was free to do what she wanted, because she wasn't tied down to this man, so he was married.
So she meets DeSicco, and they decide to get married in 1932.
And they have a straight up fucking nightmare of a marriage.
Yeah, sick. He looks like a dick. He already is pissed off.
He's already not having fun. This won't last.
Selma unfortunately at this point was basically addicted to diet pills.
Because previously when she had started acting, they put a clause into her contract called the potato clause.
Where she couldn't gain more than five pounds or she'd get fired.
What? I thought that was just like everywhere I go, I need a potato.
Because I was like, well, I'm putting that in my contract.
Should we put that in our contract? I'm going to be like, everywhere I go needs some form of potato.
Hash browns all the fucking time. Baked potato crunch.
So many options. Hashtag Irish. Well, Thelma definitely wasn't eating potatoes because they were like no good.
So Thelma and Pat fought a shit ton. She was on diet pills and also they drank a ton, which is not a good combination.
Never. Never a good combination. Um, nine out of ten times their fights ended really badly.
One time she broke Pat's nose. And one time, this is really fucked up and I'm going to say this word wrong. but she had to have an emergency appendectomy. reasons.
Quick fun fact, he was also married to my girl, Gloria Vanderbilt.
Oh, shit. And he was really, really awful to her, too.
If you watch a documentary, she talks all about it.
So casual. So it doesn't work out with him.
They get divorced and she starts hanging out with Roland West again.
And they decide to open her cafe together, which was called Thelma Todd's Cafe.
It was right along the Pacific Coast Highway.
It opened up in the summer of 1934 at 175-75 Pacific Coast Highway, and it was huge among Thelma's fellow actors and actresses.
Like anybody who was anybody was at that fucking cafe 24-7.
Um, there was private areas upstairs where the more elite guests could go hang out.
You're looking at it so disdainfully. You're like, I wouldn't go there.
Because I'm like, fuck you, I wouldn't be allowed in there.
I don't want to go in there anyway. I don't want to go in there.
They had elite rooms upstairs. I don't know why I get so upset about that.
The way you were looking at that, I was like, did that coffee do something to you?
Didn't let her in. I guess so, I guess not. elite rooms upstairs, and then there might have been some gambling going on, but that was illegal, so let's not talk about it.
Thelma loved being there. She was always working behind the counter.
She would make change for people. She would put drinks together.
A gin fizz was apparently really popular back then and you could get it for cheap.
Which sounds 20s. Very 20s. And there's a ton of pictures of her at the restaurant and they were always like surfacing in newspapers and magazines.
In October of 1935, the LA Times reported that the cafe was doing so well Thelma was planning on building an addition and was also ready to spend about $10,000 on improvements.
Which in today's money would have been $148,000.
Damn. I typed that to look it up. I Googled that.
It took me about 25 minutes to type that into the key here.
So the weird part about this whole deal is that Thelma opened the cafe with not only Roland, but his fucking wife as well.
Um, his wife was Jewel Carmen, who apparently was, like, the chillest of homegirls because...
They all also lived either, I found multiple things, they either lived together in an apartment above this, or if you see like that house thing up there.
One of them lived up there and then one of them lived on the bottom.
So either they were like straight up roomies or like straight up neighbors.
Yeah, that's the chillest wife ever. Far too close to an offer.
Especially if that's your man's side chick.
You don't need to be that close to her. No.
Not at all. So when Thelma and Roland's affair is at one of its off-again points, she heads over to the Coconut Grove.
And she runs into Lucky Luciano. No. Yes.
Lucky Luciano. No. I think he's a fucking babe.
Yes! Thank you! Yes, he is. She literally was like, I question everything about you.
What? He's got that whole mafia thing going.
I cannot. You know what it is? When I was younger, I was fucking obsessed with mob wives.
And I was like, I'm gonna be a mob wife, and then now I'm, like, a girl mob.
And I was like, that requires a lot of action.
I didn't realize that when, like, Drita and Renee were fighting.
So. But I think he's fucking me. Yeah, I mean, go off.
Go off. Okay, so Thelma thought he was a fucking babe too.
Yeah. And... He's a babe. He's a babe. I don't know what to say, though.
So, he was a well-known mob guy who was involved in all kinds of shady business, including being the official head of the Genovese crime family.
Like, shit. And also, he is literally considered to be the father of modern organized crime in the U.S.
So like, Maybe it's because he's, like, doing some shit that I'm like, oh.
But then I'd look at his face and be like, no.
Why? It's because it got punched in the face too many times.
That's hot. You know? I'm done, yes. Nailed it.
I'm literally dead. All right. So he, and I said, and he was a total babe.
Because I've argued that point 45 times now.
I feel like in case anyone didn't know. I wrote it down, so I had to say it again.
Yeah, you gotta write it down. I said he would have had me swingy-swing-swinging all over the coconut room.
Except for, forget I said that when I tell you this love story, because it's not beautiful.
I'm shocked. It's like a really nice, neat cue.
He sees Thelma and he's like, hey, good looking, what's going on?
Come have a glass of champagne with me. Hot stuff.
That's how people talked back then. That's how Lepi did it.
He did this, you know, the little gimmick hanger.
It gets the ladies going. So she was like, oh, I gave up drinking because my ex-husband used to assault me all the time. and we used to get into drunk arguments, so I thought that was bad.
So no thanks. And he... Fucking grabs her and pours a bottle of John Barry on down her throat.
Nice. You're like, well... I wouldn't be that serious.
I'd be like, okay, let's put it. I don't find the silver lining in this, you know?
She was like, you know what, let's get it.
I said, and she fell in love with the mace.
He'd also be a huge ass mobster. Got her connections to much stronger...
Diet pills. Which, at this point, they are not fucking diet pills.
They're doing, like, methamphetamine. It's fine.
It's crossed over. It's straight up cocaine.
So yeah, that's a wholesome love story for you.
Yeah. Which, as you can see, has kind of filled this thing at this point.
Yeah. She's not killing it the way she took the part.
She loves the bad voice. So Lucky was...
Pretty much, if you're thinking he was solely in this because Thelma was this young, gorgeous, ridiculously successful starlet, You're half right.
He thought she was hot. He was like, you're successful.
But also, he definitely wanted to use the onion's third floor. of her cafe as like some illegal casino rundown thing.
That's the official name of the project.
He wanted to put a casino up there. But she didn't really want to do that.
So he was trying to coerce her into doing that.
But let's get you back on track now that you're familiar with the shady characters in Selma's life.
On the night of December 14th, 1935, Thelma was getting ready to go to a party being thrown for Stanley Lupito by his daughter Aya, who was also an actress.
I think she was like 16. She got dressed in a potato cloth.
She got dressed in a mob and silver evening gown. with an expensive mink wrap and was decked out in gorgeous jewels.
You. Yeah, me. All the time. Look at this me.
As she was about to get into the limo where her mom and her driver Ernie Peters were waiting for her, Roland yelled after her.
You remember the married guy that she's like on and off again with.
He's like, you better be home by 2 a.m. She's like, fuck you, I'll be home at 2.05.
That's a direct quote. Get it, though. I love it.
While she was at the party, guess who she runs into?
No. Is it this fucker? It's not like that.
It's DeSicco. Oh, DeSicco. DeSicco. And DeSicco wasn't fucking invited to this party.
So it's like, why are you here? And he was there with one of her fucking friends.
So they get into this heated argument that everybody is witnessing, so that's never good.
And also apparently he had asked Ida to not only invite him to this party, but to seat him next to Thelma if he did get invited.
Because he knew it was going to piss her off.
He's trying to stir up some shit. Yeah, exactly.
Also, it was at the Trocadero on Sunset Boulevard.
That's where this party is. It's the rules.
Other than fighting with Jessica, Thelma, all her friends said that she was excited for the upcoming holidays.
And despite downing a couple of cocktails, of Dom Perignon.
She was like getting a buzz on, but she was by no means sloppy or incoherent.
She could handle her fucking liquor. Probably because of all the diet pills.
So later during the party, she sat at Sid Grauman's table, and he was really fancy.
Yes, thank you. They're from California.
We're from California. Did you come from California?
We did. Holy shit. Wow, we love you. That's amazing.
Thank you. You're welcome. Those are awesome.
So cool. Damn. I'm glad you're sitting in front of me.
What did he do? I would blow my mind every time.
I really don't. So she sits at this table.
And she's hanging out with him for like a half hour before she asked him to call Roland and tell him that she'd be arriving soon.
But so she gets into the car her chauffeur said that she was unusually quiet on the way home because normally she's very chatty And he dropped her off at 3.45 AM.
So not even close to 2 AM. Yeah, real fuck you.
I'm on my way home. He offered to walk her up the stairs, but she declined and she was like, night-night.
And the next day, her maid, Mae Whitehead, was the one to find her dead body at 9.30 a.m. on Monday morning.
She found Felna slumped over, if you go to the next slide, in her Lincoln Phaeton in the driver's seat.
Woof. She still looks, I mean, her hair looks fucking good.
Her hair looks great. And she's got that main coat on.
If you're going to die, that's what you want to wear.
Yeah. I'm saying, I'm just saying. um so obviously the driver's side door was wide open when she found her which is like kind of weird yeah so May said that the doors to the garage where Thelma's car was parked it was actually rolled The door to the garage was closed, but it was unlocked.
So after realizing Thelma was not just asleep... she rushed down to the cafe to get roland she's like roland she's dead she's dead i don't know why she has that accent Yeah, totally.
Yeah, the coroner ruled that Thelma may have been dead for 12 hours before she was discovered, but a couple witnesses say that wasn't possible.
Because they had seen her Sunday afternoon.
Which is creepy. Because the coroner said she's supposed to be like, what?
Because I'm confused. How does it happen?
Martha Ford said that she got a call from Thelma and Thelma had asked her if it was okay if she show up to a party that was supposed to happen that day.
It was Martha's party. wearing the clothes that she'd worn the night before, which was very unlike Thelma.
Like she obviously is a fucking actress and has plenty of clothes.
She's fancy. And she is going to be like, photographed.
Why would you be photographed in the same outfit twice?
So Marv was like, yeah, that's fine. And Thelma's like, you just wait until I walk in and you'll fall dead.
But really, she was already dead. Supposedly.
Choice words. Yeah, choice words. She said you'll fall dead because she was bringing a surprise guest.
Martha 100% believed that she had spoken with Thelma and not an imposter when she told the authorities this.
And then, Jewel Carmen, Roland's wife, Said that she saw Thelma driving Sunday morning with a handsome stranger in the passenger seat.
Which is convenient if she killed her because...
It's interesting that she saw her elsewhere, you know, setting up a little.
Seems fishy. Seems fishy. So although Thelma's death was officially ruled an accident...
Many people disagree. The police said that she was either warming up her car to get warm or going somewhere.
Or maybe she had planned on sleeping there because Roland probably locked her out of the house and she wasn't home at 2 a.m.
And she died of carbon monoxide poisoning.
But there's a few. First of all, when Thelma's mom was informed of her daughter's death I said not to scream that at the top of my lungs for you.
Thank you. She screamed. Immediately, Pat DeSicco is considered a suspect because he's a douchebag.
He's a sicko. And also, he's your ex-husband.
And... about this today. And it just had a public fight, is what I was gonna say, at the party and everybody saw them.
Lucky Luciano also had his time in the hot seat because he wanted to put that gambling ring in and apparently like days previous somebody saw them out to dinner And he was asking her about putting the casino on the third floor.
And she was like, over my dead body. And apparently he said that could be arranged.
Ooh, that's some mobster shit. And also, he, at the time that her body got discovered, was on a flight out of California at 7.45 a.m.
Convenient. Convenient. And he never returned to California, interestingly enough.
Convenient. Yeah. Maybe while she'd been involved with him, she found out something that she shouldn't have also, and that's why he decided to kill her.
And he was probably worried that she was going to sink his mob ship and take his mob ship.
Suspicions also fell on Roland West because he was the one who, one, yelled at her that she better be back at 2 o'clock.
Two, locked her out of the house, which led to her fucking death anyways.
And three, he was super jealous and possessive and Thelma was out partying without him and doing her thing, which probably pissed him off.
And after Mae had found Thelma, Roland could have had time to make Thelma's death appear like an accident before the authorities got there. because he was other than Mae, the first person to discover her dead body.
And some people say that on his deathbed, Roland admitted that he had a lot more to do with her death than he initially let on.
People always do that shit when they're on the deathbed.
Like, they don't give any, like, real details.
They're just like, maybe that happened. It might have had something to do with it.
Bye now. I'm going to help you guys out at all.
So, I see the light. So I'm going to end this by telling you some of the weird shit surrounding the body in the crime scene.
And you can do with that what you will. Make your own choice.
So one thing is that there were undigested peas and carrots in Thelma's stomach.
And those hadn't been served at the party that she was at.
So it doesn't, like she had to have gone somewhere between the party and So she had, like, nobody knows where she would have gone unless maybe she went to the cafe.
I'm not going to explain it, but it's a little weird.
Number two is that according to the medical examiner and the coroner, Thelma's only bodily injury was a split lip and a chipped tooth, which was presumably from like hitting her face on the steering wheel when she passed out. but some people say that they saw bruising along her neck and that some people say she had a broken nose.
And if you look, I didn't include it in here because it's a little gruesome, but her autopsy photo, if you look at her neck, it does kind of look like there's bruising.
It could be liver moris. That's what somebody said, but then somebody said that it wasn't enough time to set in.
I don't look for a lot of time. These girls can't be taken too much.
I'm just throwing it out. I'm devil's advocating this.
But also the broken nose is like... Yeah, the broken nose is weird.
Because you wouldn't have passed out with that.
Again after an investigation a grand jury Grove found that there was no evidence of murder and that the Homicide Bureau decided to close the case officially, listed it as an accidental death with suicidal tendencies.
But all of Thelma's friends and family were like, there's no way she would have killed herself.
It doesn't make any sense. She was in the prime of her career.
So nobody knows what happened for sure to 29-year-old Hollywood starlet, Elma Todd.
Oh, and if you go to the next slide, that's her funeral.
And if I die, I better get that many fucking bouquets.
I'll be so pissed off. If you die. Well, what if I die?
I am immortal, but if I die. If I die. I want that.
So many flowers. All right, so that is the end of our show.
We're going to stick around and we'll say hi and do whatever.
I think we're going to go in the restaurant.
We'll hang out for however long you guys want to.
I have to wake up at like... 3 15 to feed my newborn anyway so like let's do this anyways in like an hour so um and if you guys want we um have t-shirts in the back that my wonderful friend Vasco designed.
And John, that beautiful man creature back there, is going to be selling them.
And he might cook you dinner. They'll definitely sell you a shirt.
So if you want to go do that, feel free.
And we'll see you guys soon. Thank you.
If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
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