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Lisa, thanks for joining us today.
It is such a pleasure to be with you.
Yes, it is a pleasure to have you, my friend.
How would you get started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Well, probably the best thing I've known for is actually the best thing I've done is have children, but that's another issue.
But the thing that I'm best known for professionally is on the author of several books, including Selling with Noble Purpose.
And the subtitle of that book is really the focus of my work that I do with companies around the world.
The subtitle is how to drive revenue and do work that makes you proud.
So our whole consultancy is around helping organizations, particularly big sales teams, produce the revenue that they need while at the same time doing meaningful, noble Purpose work.
This is really, really great.
And everybody will have a link to Lisa's book and her company in the chat in the description of this episode.
And Lisa, I think it would be a good place for us to start is just chatting about that subtitle because that is a really interesting and unique approach to Selling.
Well, it's interesting because the data tells us that salespeople that have a purpose bigger than money who want to go beyond closing the deal, who truly want to improve life for their customers, actually outsell the salespeople just focused on targets.
And we've all probably experienced that from the buyer side where we've had someone who truly cares about us.
And we can feel the difference and the challenges.
And so I started doing this research about 12 years ago.
And the data was really clear that these salespeople who had this different true north, this noble purpose, they really, they didn't want to just help the buyer.
They actually wanted to improve life for the buyer.
And there's a nuance difference there that counts for a while, which I'll get to in a second.
But what the research showed is those people sold more.
And it was kind of counter to what you might think.
But because so often salespeople are told, hit the number, hit the number, hit the number, we got to close this deal.
What's it going to take to get this deal over the line?
I mean, you're the American negotiation institute.
And it's probably born out of every leader that says, we got to get this deal over the line.
How are we going to do this?
And once you start doing that, focusing on your end of the deal, you lessen your power and you less in your effectiveness.
Yes, I love this. And this is so important to get into because when you think about the distinction between skill set and mindset, yes, they're different things, but they are intricate, like intricately bound because you can't separate these two things because again, you can have all the skills in the world.
But if you have the wrong mindset, then you're not going to be as skillful or as effective.
And so really what you're talking about is the mindset side in addition to the skill set, right?
That's right. It starts there.
And it's the difference between if I'm a teacher and I come in and I think I want to be the best teacher in the world, that's certainly better than thinking, oh, God, just get me through the day and give me my paycheck and I'll go home.
But thinking I want to be the best teacher, I'm going to get pretty good results.
But if I go in and I think I want to help create the best students in the world, we're going to get an entirely different outcome.
And it's going to affect the way I show up in a myriad of ways.
So when I'm presenting, I'm not going to be thinking as much of, am I doing this right?
Am I compelling? Am I interesting?
Am I connecting? Instead, I'm going to be looking at them going, are they getting it?
Oh, they're not getting it.
It's shifts my focus. And the same thing is true in sales.
If I go in thinking, I want to close the biggest deal in the world, I want to be the best salesperson in the world.
If I'm pretty smart and I've got good discipline, I'll be pretty good.
But if I go in and I think I want to make a difference to my customers, the customers will feel the difference.
I will ask different questions.
I will present differently and the research tells us three things will happen.
I will close bigger deals.
I will close stickier deals and I will close deals at a higher margin.
And those are all very important things.
And there's another bit of research that tells us a fourth thing.
I'll be happier. Wow. So bigger deals, stickier deals, more margins and happier.
This is like a really great infomercial.
But wait, there's more.
It just keeps on. And this is great too.
Because again, assuming here that the person who is being sold to probably enjoys the process a lot more with this mindset.
Yes, absolutely. And so when I said I'd be happier, what's really important to note is these, we called them the noble purpose sellers, where we identified them in our research.
These noble purpose sellers weren't just happier because they were closing bigger deals.
I mean, that does make you kind of happy.
But they were actually experiencing more purpose and meaning on a day to day basis.
And the reason for this is once we get beyond food and shelter, human beings have two fundamental needs, belonging and significance.
Belonging is a part of something bigger than myself.
And significance is my individual contribution matters.
So if I come into call on you and I'm just selling for myself and I want to be number one, I want to hit my target, you know, I'm a pretty motivated person.
Somebody with that mindset is going to do okay.
Maybe they want to provide for their family, which is really important.
But at a certain point, you're going to run to obstacles.
You're going to run into challenges.
You're going to get tired.
You're going to get burnt out.
And if you know, I'm actually helping these customers.
This is bigger than just me, with our researchers and research from University of Michigan State University.
And what it found was these sellers that have this noble purpose, experience more tenacity and more resilience in the face of challenge.
Because it's bigger than you.
And we're at our best when we're in the service of something bigger than ourselves.
Oh, this is really great.
And speaking of something bigger than yourself, I have to remind myself as you were talking that I'm here to serve the audience because when you referenced another big 10 school, I was like, we will not talk about that research, Lisa.
Okay, we're buckeys here.
Okay. But I'm going to go.
That's right. I need to be a better podcast interviewer.
And I'm going to focus on a higher noble purpose, which is helping my audience.
And this is really, really great because when you think about the psychology of happiness, positive psychology, this is relatively new because usually psychology in the past was always focused on maladies.
So the problems that we're experiencing, the negative emotions, how we experience less.
And now the psychologist, the science is catching up to the positive side where we're figuring out what it takes to really make us happy.
And like you said, belonging and significance, that's really what it comes down to once your basic needs are met.
Now, the thing is when it comes to the business world, we're all stressed out.
We're anxious. We have a lot on our plate.
There's a lot of ambiguity and change happening, which makes it really difficult.
And so a lot of times people are just focused on the basics.
What it takes for me to survive day to day and get things done.
Now, when you have busy professionals like that, and they're in a field that is more transactional or seems more transactional, how do you create a noble purpose within somebody who is maybe just coming for the money?
Humans are complex. We have a lot of emotions, and they're all mixed up.
And there's nothing wrong with wanting to make a living for yourself, your family, and there's nothing wrong wanting to make a lot of money.
And so I want to tell you how the money and the meaning are actually very connected.
So you mentioned that the positive psychology is just getting there.
Well, if you think about psychology is finally catching up with the poets and the mystics and the filmmakers.
Go ahead and watch that old movie.
It's a wonderful life. Oh my gosh, I made a difference.
I really do matter. The whole throughline of that story that we see every year at Christmas is your regular old life makes a difference.
So what's even more lagging than the psychology, the psychology started catching up about 10 or 20 years ago.
What's more lagging is the business community.
And the business community is the last one because it has been very transactional.
And so here's what I say for organizations, and I work with a lot of very large organizations.
If people are already buying from you, you have a noble purpose.
You just need to name it in claimant.
So unless you're selling, you know, I don't know, crack or you're driving or whatever, you know, you you have a noble purpose because the noble purpose is the impact you're having on customers.
And so a lot of people will say like we worked with an accounting firm and they're like, we're just accountants, we don't have a noble purpose.
And then I start asking them, what impact do you have on your clients?
Well, we, you know, help them sleep at night.
We help handle the part of the business.
They don't want to handle.
And I'm like, well, there you go.
But when you have a through line to that.
And in their case, I think their noble purpose was we help our clients, we help our clients reduce risk and seize opportunities.
Well, that's very different than just, well, I'm going to count, you know, it's like the teacher that says, I'm a teacher versus the teacher that says, I'm creating the leaders of tomorrow.
You know, that's a, that's a different kind of teacher.
And we all know whose class we'd rather be in.
And so you're, you can find your own noble purpose by answering three very specific questions.
And these are in the book.
I'll talk to you now. Hello, my friends.
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How do you make a difference?
How does what you sell make a difference?
Number two, how do you do it differently than your competition?
And maybe you have some features, differences, or maybe you just care more.
Maybe you're nicer. Maybe you're more thorough.
How do you do it differently?
And then the third question is on your best day, what do you love about your job?
And you are creating the story about why you're working and what impact it has.
And unless all the people listen to this are independently wealthy, you're going to work tomorrow.
So the best thing for you to do is the research sells us.
If you can focus on those three things, how do I make a difference?
How do I do it differently in the competition on my best day?
What do I love about my job?
If you can knit together a narrative around that and that becomes the story you tell yourself, you will become more successful.
You have better relationships with your customers.
You enjoy your job more.
This is great. Lisa, I really appreciate this.
And I appreciate that you used an accounting firm as the example, especially as a lawyer here too, because it's easy, especially when you're in a technical field or a financial field or something like that to just say, ah, purpose, no, that's not what we do.
We're about the law. We're about the numbers.
We're about the data. That's really it.
And I love the fact that you're pushing people to dig a little bit deeper to find that purpose because it's there if you look.
It's there if you look. And I will also tell you so I use an accounting firm one example.
We also work with a concrete company.
And if you think that concrete is not important, you try to live in your life without concrete.
It holds up half the world literally.
And so as you think about this, and I know your emphasis is on negotiation.
So often when we get into a negotiation, it is because the client is telling us you're a commodity.
You are a commodity and there's no difference from you to anybody else.
And so if you're a commodity, well, I'm just going to get the lowest price I can.
Who wouldn't? And so what selling what a noble purpose does is it helps you.
One, a lot of times you don't have to negotiate because you've already been so clear on how you're affecting the customer for the positive.
But if you do negotiate, you're not negotiating from that non-differentiated commodity space.
And that's where negotiations go south is when you're a commodity or when the buyer thinks you're a commodity.
Yes. So let's go a little bit deeper onto that because that's really important.
That's something that people run into all the time.
So if you believe you have a differentiated solution, if you believe you have a true noble purpose and you're talking to somebody who is viewing you as a commodity, how do you change their perspective?
So the way the best way you change their perspective is questions.
So if I were to sit here and tell you, oh, I'm not a commodity, I'm just on the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But let's go back to our accounting term, which is a group that gets commoditized because just a bunch of accountants will towerally rate.
So when you are in a conversation with a buyer, this needs to happen before the deal is on the table.
The kinds of questions you need to ask them are the question we're always trying to answer for ourselves and our buyer is a single question we call the game changing question.
How will the customer be different as a result of doing business with us?
And so the way you get the answer to that question as a seller, as someone who's trying to proactively secure a contract is you start asking them questions like, well, when your accounting is working for you, what impact does that have on the business?
When they're mistakes, what impact does that have?
When you're working with a firm that you have complete confidence, what effect does that have on your ability to do the other things in your business?
If you have to call your firm every week, is that a good thing?
Does it give you more confidence?
Does it give you less confidence?
And so what you're exploring with your buyer is what I call the ripple effect.
The outer edges of the thing that you're doing.
So we'll go back to that old movie.
It's a wonderful life. And that was all about the outer edges of what he was doing.
It was, oh, we gave you a home loan.
And that was more than just a home.
That acted as a centerpiece for you to have prosperity as an immigrant in your family.
Just when we get into this, like we get into the concrete business, which you might think is the most undifferentiated business in the world.
But when we start to look at what happens when the crew really knows what they're doing, what happens when the crew has a higher priority on safety than most people in the business.
What happens when the team works faster than other people in the business?
And those things all have an impact on the buyer.
And that's what people pay more for.
The challenge is people don't know.
And they shouldn't have to know because they buy lots of stuff.
Your thing is just one thing.
Your job is to have that calm, non-pushy assertive but not aggressive assertive is on behalf of me wanting to help you.
Aggressive is on behalf of me wanting to help myself.
So we want to have that assertive conversation with the buyer where we're asking questions like, what impact does this have on everything else in your business?
Well, what effect does it have when you do this?
Well, what about when you don't do this?
Well, and they might not have sought that through.
And just by having that conversation with them, you're adding a lot of value.
This is really helpful because and tell me if I'm following here with this Lisa, because when we're talking about how to decommoditize yourself in the market, you're asking these questions in order to help the prospect understand the difference between you and other companies based on the impact of your product.
That's right. And it's not just the different.
We have a full service team.
They're only available during working hours.
Now, if I know that that's one of our advantages, I ask, do you ever have problems outside of working hours?
What kinds of problems do those problems cause you?
And I got to be ready because their answer may be, we never have problems outside of working hours because we don't work outside working hours and no one ever calls in here.
It's no problem. Okay, well, guess what?
That is not a benefit that they're going to care about.
So I'm not just promoting my benefits.
And I'm also there's a nuance here that I want to make sure people here.
I'm also not doing that old school manipulative sales thing wouldn't it be helpful to you if you had someone that could help you outside of working hours?
That would be awesome. Wouldn't it?
Like that. Come on. People are too smart for that.
I'm very sincerely, authentically saying what kinds of problems do you encounter outside working hours and what impact do those have?
Yeah. I'm truly asking for a place of curiosity.
Now, my questions are often the the the area that I'm going in for my questions is often determined by the things I know I can do.
But they are still I'm still open to the answer.
So one of the metrics that we move in organizations is employee engagement.
And so I always ask what's your sales turnover?
What's your sales leadership turnover?
What's your time to profitability for a rep?
What do you want it to be?
Why are people leaving?
Why are managers leaving?
What are they leading for?
What does that cost you?
Because I know that's one of the areas I can affect.
But if someone says no one ever leaves, they're all wildly profitable and we have no problem with turnover whatsoever, then I know, well, that's why I can be helpful.
Right. Oh, this is good.
This is very, very helpful.
So now let's say, Lisa, let's say we're in this conversation, we're asking great questions.
Sometimes conversations go off track.
Yeah. How is it that you reset yourself in the middle of an negotiation or difficult conversation and write the ship?
Well, one of the things that you have to be aware of if you're negotiating large contracts, one of the things that organizations do is they often separate out the buying from the function from the contract signing and the procurement function.
Because the buyer knows the user knows what they need.
The procurement people count on the buyers to vet all the people and then they know any one of these three people will be fine.
My job is get the lowest price.
So one of the things that you want to do when things start to go sideways and they start just if you are with someone who's really aggressive and procurement and oh, by the way, say it bless their heart to them because that seems like a terrible job.
But one of the things that you want to do is you can call the timeout.
If things are really going badly sideways, you can say in full authenticity and transparency, I want to pause this here because it seems like it's all becoming about the purchase price.
When in reality, the value of this is in the usage and we seem to kind of lost that conversation.
And you've got to have done your homework with your buyers, with your users to say, I want to go back to that because as we try to whittle this thing down, the only way for me to do that is to give up some things that the users said were very valuable to them.
So I want to go, I'd like us to go back to that conversation about why this is important and what impact it's going to have because I feel like we're commoditizing something that's not really a commodity.
Oh, that's very good. And something that I think would be helpful for the listeners is a little role play, a soft role play.
And so imagine if I was so by the buyer or use a buyer, I'll be the I'll be the buyer.
And I do you were going to do it this way.
Oh, this is farma come back to me.
We do role plays all the time.
We do zoom training all over the world, not training on how to use zoom, but via zoom.
And we always put people in a breakout and role place.
This is coming back to me.
Okay. I'm taking one. We do it too.
So this is great. It's fun for me too.
So we'll see how I do. Well, let's say I'm buying accounting services, since we were just on that.
And I'm vetting you against some other people.
And I'm trying to commoditize you.
So we let's say we've had a couple of conversations.
I've told you my needs and wants and things like that.
And now I'm trying to play hardball and focus on the price.
Okay. And let's make up a price.
Let's say a retainer of 10k a month, something like that.
Okay. Cool. And so, all right, Lisa, I really appreciate the conversations thus far.
But I have to tell you, we are in conversation with a number of other really reputable firms.
And your price point is the highest.
So what I'd love to work with you, but you know, with other prices so much lower, I feel obligated to go to them.
So what can you do with your price?
Well, I'm not surprised that ours is higher to be honest.
It almost always is. So in our conversations with them, we can talk about the price in a second.
What I'd be most interested to talk about is how our services stack up to theirs.
It's a good question. Well, the reason we're at this point is because we believe you're one of the best in the industry.
So yeah, we have no question about the quality of services.
Good, good, good. That means our conversations have gone well.
You know, in terms of the price point, like I said, I'm not surprised we're one of the most expensive.
We almost always are. And it's because we're the best.
And I guess the thing that I would ask and you're in accounting for you're looking at accounting services.
So the last thing you want to do is waste money on something.
This is not to save you money.
It doesn't make any sense.
And I know that budgets and dollars are real.
So the thing that I would be comfortable going back and doing and I'm looking at my notes from some of our conversations because I think you're going to have to make the case for the rest of your partners about why you made this decision and why you went with the highest firm.
So when I look back over my notes, there were a couple things that released so doubt to me here.
And one was the time value of the executive leadership in this firm.
And you've got 10 executive leaders who are now as you in your words overly involved in the finances.
And that's not just their time, but what would they be doing instead?
And so one of the things that I would say the reason we charge the rates that we do and we have the reputation that we do is I want to make sure that your executive leadership is thinking about the next app.
Not the dog on accounting and not the finances.
So that's one thing I would say about this.
And the other thing that I would say is since you are making a switch, you and I talked about how difficult it was to make this switch in something as significant as accounting practices.
And one of the things I'll tell you about our firm, we typically have clients for life.
Because just the act of making a switch is costing you thousands and thousands of dollars.
And you know that to take the time to vet firms, to hire a new firm is costing you thousands and thousands of dollars.
And so when you go with us, you can have a lot of confidence that you want to make a switch again.
So those are just a couple of things that I would say.
But I think what would be important for us is to have a conversation about what would make it worth it for you.
Because I could tell you our fees are fees and they're there for a reason.
Oh, this is so good. I was just sitting here scribbling all of these notes down these days.
That was on the fly. So I hope I did okay.
Yeah, you did. You did well.
It's almost like you wrote the book on this or something kind of strange.
Almost. But one of the things I want to draw people's attention to in that was that would not have worked if I had not drawn those things out earlier in the conversation.
I cannot emphasize this enough.
You know it. You teach this.
The negotiation doesn't go south at the negotiation pace.
The negotiation goes south when you did not uncover the true value in the discovery phase.
There's so much depth here to go through.
And so I like one of the one of the things that was really powerful that was subtle but significant was how I don't want to say casual but more matter of fact you were with the response.
You're really expensive.
Yeah, I know that we get that all the time.
And here's why. Yeah, you're just owning it, right?
And a lot of people shrink at that point of the conversation.
Oh, well, and they start to feel like on they get on their defensive on the defensive.
You can see it in their body language.
You can hear it in the tone.
And for expert negotiators, they it's like blood in the water.
It's like, oh, I sense weakness.
Now I can push because they are not confident in their own pricing.
In their own pricing. Yeah, that was really good.
Well, thank you. It has taken me a solid decade to get here because that does happen with me that like what we just played out.
I we do consulting services and I do speaking and I do training.
And you know, we have people say, well, you were twice as much as the other person.
And I have had to fake it till I make it and saying, I'm not a bit surprised.
We typically are with a smile on my face because I also, and this is a fake it, maybe to use the phrase of Amy Cuddy, a fake it, tell you become it because we do cost more.
And I have I'm confident you get a 10x return.
But I had to kind of get myself there.
And so the phrase that really helped me was when they say, you're more expensive to say, oh, I'm not a bit surprised we usually are.
Yeah, oh, I love that a lot.
And I will be letting myself team know.
We run into the same thing.
And it's again, like I said, the natural tendency is to shy away from it.
But I like leaning into it with strength.
And the other thing that you did was you again, focusing on the impact as it relates to them.
You use their own words.
And so yes, you said, yes, we have a great reputation.
We know we can deliver this return.
But then the you were citing your sources and your source was the person that you were talking to.
Something that you said earlier was this, you mentioned that in our previous conversation, you said x, right?
And so you're demonstrating that you respect them by listening.
And then you're also demonstrating essentially that there is an internal conflict that is happening within them because there is a part of them that knows that you have what they need.
And then there's another part of them that feels almost obligated to attack the price and negotiate it down.
Right. Right. And it's and if you notice, if I had just gone in and on my discovery and I had been afraid of being able to make this up, but if I had just gone in on my discovery and said, how much you paying for accounting services now?
How much do you want to be paying?
What kinds of services are you using?
If all of my discovery questions had just been around my product offering, I would not have what I need to negotiate.
But instead, what my questions are about are things like, and I know this from working with an accounting firm, how much time has seen a leader in your company spend on the financials?
How good are they at it? What else would you rather than be doing?
So I'm asking those types of questions, which are the nuance here is they are not about me, but they are about you, but the areas I can impact.
And that's the nuance because people usually ask around their product area, which is how much you're paying what are you using now?
How's it working for you?
Blah blah blah blah blah.
But what I want to get to is the impact.
Because you might not have even thought that through.
I mean, how many people think, gosh, I got all my senior leaders spending two hours a week on financials and oh, by the way, it sucks the life out of them and they have to go, you know, to chat with their colleagues for an hour afterwards because I hate looking at those dog owners ports.
That's the re hours that some smart person on my team could have now meet with a customer.
This is the opportunity cost of that.
Yeah, this is great. And like you said, that's not something that people immediately think of.
And so you have to do the work laying the foundation in the early stages of the conversation to learn, empathize, understand and hold on to that so you can provide a better solution and respond later on in the negotiation as well.
I just recently did a big renovation on my house.
And it was a six figure renovation.
So it was big. And I had, I bought an older home and I knew I was going to have to do it when I bought it.
And I had two contracts in here, quote me, and I told them both just to be clear.
The one who wins this is not necessarily the lowest price.
I said, the money matters, but I am really picky.
I want this thing to look great.
And what I like to say is I'm the pickiest woman alive price accordingly.
And I said, and I want someone who's going to be excited about this project and I want this to be fun for me.
I want this to be fun and exciting for me.
And they both came out with two different quotes.
And the guy that was higher said, I'm going to put my best people on this.
And when you said you wanted this to be fun for you, back up me excited because this, this is your dream kitchen.
It should be amazing. And the other guy comes back and goes, well, I sharpened my pencil and all and didn't address the fun aspect at all.
And he said, you know, sometimes these projects go over and I realized like I'm in a home office, my mindset, my joy at dealing with this is going to directly affect my business, my money.
If I'm like all dealing with this and I went with the higher price guy, because I knew the time value for me, if every time I deal with this thing, I have to come back and have three glasses of wine to get over it.
Well, what's that going to do for me?
So true. So true. I love this Lisa.
This was really, really helpful.
And before you go, can you let the listeners know again about your books, your company and how they get in touch with you?
So there's two things you can do.
One, you can follow me on LinkedIn.
Lisa McLeod, MCLEOD, follow me on LinkedIn because I do a LinkedIn live every Friday at noon.
I do LinkedIn learning, Monday motivation.
So follow me on LinkedIn.
You'll get all that. The second thing you can do, if you are a salesperson is Google selling with noble purpose and buy the book because I'll tell you, it is the second edition of the book.
And what we did in the second edition was we included all these really practical examples that people can use because something you read these books in their very theoretical, which is helpful.
But I included lots of examples from banking reps, concrete reps, accounting reps, pharmaceutical reps, so that you can say, oh, that's how they did it and sort of insert yourself into it.
This is great. Lisa, really, really appreciate this.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Oh, it was just my pleasure.
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The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations.
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Again, thank you for joining the team.
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