From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin.
This is Modern Love.
On today's show, I'm talking to the writer and former New York Times columnist, Lindy West.
Years ago Lindy wrote a book called Shrill.
That puts you inside her brilliant weird, funny brain as she moves through a world that keeps telling her that being fat is a problem, that it makes her fundamentally unlovable.
But by the end of Shrill Lindy's feeling confident in herself and she's also found love with her best friend Aham.
They get married, and they're going to be together forever.
Now in Lindy's latest book called Adult Races, she's opening up about a problem that was kind of built into her marriage from the start.
Aham did not want to be totally monogamous.
And while Lindy wanted to be okay with that, really, she wasn't.
This situation was bound to explode at some point.
And today, I talk to Lindy about the moment it did.
Lindy West, welcome to Modern Love.
Thank you so much for having me.
Lindy, okay, towards the end of your first book, Shrill, you get married to your husband, Aham.
Finding love, always a big deal.
But when you and Aham got together, it was a particularly big deal for you.
Can you tell me why?
Yeah.
Gosh, I haven't thought about this in such a long time.
But Ahab and I were just talking about this last night.
I had always been kind of lonely and single and sad and yearning, you know.
And growing up in a fat body.
People tell you no one will ever love you unless you fix your body and everything.
Then being a woman, a very visible woman on the internet, then strangers are just telling you that every single day, which I already kind of had it handled internally.
You're like, I don't need the pile on.
I don't need the, come on, guys.
As Samantha Irby says, let the plumber fix the sink.
I got it.
So there's just all this baggage around it.
But really, I mean, at heart, Aham and I, just love each other so much.
And I think we both kind of knew that we couldn't imagine a life without the other person.
So, you know.
But yeah, on some level he wanted to give me that like big proposal, big wedding that I thought I would never get to have.
Because it was very—it healed something in me.
Yeah.
Marriage was not, you know, sort of only about affirming the connection between the two of you.
It was also this kind of almost like public stamp of approval.
Does that track?
Was it sort of like that?
I mean it feels— disordered to say that, but i think.
But yeah, because i mean we contain multitudes right and again, that's not why i got married.
That would be crazy.
I feel like i need to also zoom out and just like affirm that you guys also really fucking loved each other right, like there was this strong, beautiful connection.
Yeah, i mean, you know we're very different, but we're also, you know, from from the first day, you know, we started dating.
We were like oh, that's my best friend, and then we just were never apart.
Even when we tried to break up a couple times, we were still just like calling each other every day and being like hello, you know um, and we were very much two freaks who say the same thing at the same time, we make the same joke at the same time, we do the same riff.
It's, it's uh, it's alarming and um, Off-putting to others.
Except to those.
Except to you.
Except to us.
Two freaks.
I mean, two freaks matching each other's freak.
When you got married, what did you hope your future would look like?
So I think I just imagined that we would, you know, stay on the sort of traditional track.
I thought we would probably have a baby and buy a house and continue to work.
We also work together a lot.
Aham is an artist and I work on his shows and he helps me a lot with my work, with my writing.
And yeah, I think I sort of envisioned a... a classic happy marriage.
Like, I think that I thought we would just have a great time for the rest of our lives.
That sounds great.
That sounds.
I mean, it's interesting that you bring up the word classic in reference to your marriage, because you have a new book out.
It's called Adult Braces.
And in this book you share a piece of information about your relationship, your marriage to Aham.
That was not, I would say quote-unquote, Classic right.
Yes.
You share the fact that Aham was non-monogamous, correct?
Yes.
So we briefly broke up in 2011.
Then it was a bad time.
I write about it in Shrill.
Aham and I broke up.
My dad died.
It was horrible.
A tree fell on my house.
Then we got back together.
But part of that was Aham was like, you know, I...
I've been divorced twice by age 27 and I feel like possessiveness and jealousy had a lot to do with both of those relationships collapsing.
And I want us to be not together because we're trapped and locked together in a prison of love.
Or, you know, he didn't say it like that.
Of course, yeah.
You're editorializing.
You're a writer.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
But he was like, I don't think that monogamy is healthy for me.
He has all these reasons, which make intellectual sense.
I'm like, I went to a liberal arts school.
Totally.
You know what I mean?
But emotionally, how is this hitting you?
Yeah, same for me.
It made intellectual sense to me.
And in fact, it had always made intellectual sense to me.
I was like, I understand how this works and why people do this.
I don't personally have the self-esteem to cope with it.
I've had this too, yeah.
Yeah, so my initial reaction was like, I was devastated.
Because I worked at the Alt Weekly company.
Dan Savage was my boss.
It felt like everyone was supposed to do it or else you were like a prude and a pioneer woman.
Of course.
And I was like, why do I have to do that just because all these cool kids think it's better?
Why can't I make my own choices?
So our initial conversation was a lot of me crying and being like, I don't want anyone else.
Was it presented as sort of like, we can get back together if we are non-monogamous?
Was it like a conditional thing?
Okay.
Basically, I think so.
But it wasn't him saying, I'm going to go out and date people.
We're a couple who loves each other desperately getting back together.
So this was not a moment when either of us was like, oh, I want to go out and find someone else.
We were ecstatic to be reuniting.
So where we landed was, if we want to be together for the rest of our lives, who knows what's going to happen in 10 years, 20 years?
Who we're going to meet, how we're going to feel?
And to lock in and say...
Our feelings are never going to change and we're never going to have any interest in anyone else outside of this partnership.
It's just not realistic.
Once it was reframed as something that we were going to deal with eventually, and I love to procrastinate.
That's interesting, though.
You're kicking the can, basically, of this relationship.
What, definition?
Framework?
Framework.
Uh-huh.
Which is so unfair to him, because he really was telling me something that's important to him.
And I always heard it as an obstacle that I could, like, wear down and overcome, you know?
Like, I just need to be the best girlfriend so that he doesn't want this stupid thing anymore.
Huh.
And a hum...
Aham tried so hard to get me to actually engage with this emotionally.
How did he try?
Oh, I just mean he warned me, I think, that my tendency to avoid hard things was gone.
Toxic and was going to be a little bit poisonous in the relationship and I do think it did slow damage because because then what happened was because we had this nebulous thing that I had kicked down the road until an unknown time.
I was always dreading when was that time going to come.
Yep.
So every time Aham initiated any kind of like really hard conversation even if it was just like you need to do the dishes right after you cook, or whatever I would react like someone was chasing me with a knife.
You know, like i would.
Every conversation was like the big one where he'd be like i've met someone or i'm dating someone, like that specter was always kind of looming for you yes, but then there comes a point you write about this in your book where uh, you can't avoid it.
Tell me about the moment you found out that aham was dating someone else 2019.
I'm recording my audiobook for my second book.
And I'm in Seattle.
I had just gotten home from being away for six months.
And I get a text while I'm recording my audiobook.
Don't know why I had my phone on.
Shouldn't have done that.
And...
I find out that someone who was a fan of mine, who knew what a hum looked like, had seen him kissing someone at a bar.
And I just told the engineer that I had a family emergency and I had to go.
And I went home and. we talked for the rest of the night and, and at this point he was like, he had sort of come to the, conclusion that we couldn't resolve this which is why he went ahead and started dating this person because he because i had been gone i was i had refused to talk to him about it and i had technically agreed to be non-monogamous and he was like well I'm just going to do what I need to do to feel like a person.
I don't know.
Did it feel like you were losing him?
I want to understand this thing you've been dreading is now happening.
Yeah, I think it felt like I was losing him.
But I...
I was just determined to win.
That's how I felt.
I was like, you're being crazy.
I'm the greatest person alive because I also have high self-esteem in addition to low self-esteem.
We contain multitudes.
I was like, what the fuck do you think you're doing?
That's crazy.
I let myself be angry in every possible direction, which was actually cathartic, because I had been suppressing all those feelings for a really long time.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Because I had to be perfect girlfriend, perfect wife.
So this wouldn't happen.
So this thing that's happening wouldn't happen.
Yes.
So, yeah, we had this, like, multi-day fight.
That's also like very tender and sweet, you know, because we actually don't want to hurt each other.
Yeah.
I mean, at a certain point, did you end up... That's a big sigh.
As the days went on, did you ask more questions about this person that Aham was seeing?
Did you start to get curious?
Nope.
Well, I think I was like, don't tell me anything about this stupid person.
I don't want to know.
Like I was like a baby.
I was I was like full child self.
You know what I mean?
Like having a tantrum.
I was not wearing my adult woman pants.
I was.
Yeah, I was very much like is she prettier than me?
Do you love her more than me?
You know, do you guys laugh at me?
Do you remember what he said to that question?
Yeah, he said no, you know.
He said he said she's a really good person and and you're just different.
And he was like you're my wife, like I don't, i don't love anybody more than you.
You know, i don't true.
Did that feel true to you in that moment?
Yes, and i just didn't understand.
I was like man, we have, we found the best thing.
You know we, we did it like we're best friends and we get to hang out every day.
What?
Why do you want to fuck it up, dude?
What more could you want?
Yeah yeah Eventually, you were kind of forced to reckon with the fact that this person Aham was dating was a pretty big part of his life.
Tell me what you found out and how that made you feel.
So he told me that her name was Roya and she was one of the artistic directors of a venue in Portland that had put on one of his shows.
So I actually met her when they did the show there.
And she was so nice.
Like I remember meeting her.
I know she was like so small.
She was like the tiniest little person.
I am the biggest, loudest.
Well, I'm not going to be self-deprecating, but I'm tall and I'm big and I take up a lot of space and energy.
And she was just like, a tiny little beautiful... She's, like, kind of goth, you know?
Meanwhile, I'm, like, I kind of dress like a clown.
Just very much an inverse of me in a lot of ways.
And, of course, in ways that made me feel wildly insecure.
So how did you?
You found out?
Aham, you know, sat you down at one point and was like I need to tell you more about who this person is.
Yeah, because her...
Her best friend died.
And it was one of those best friendships that's like family.
And she was his primary caregiver during his illness.
And it was just... Intense.
Yeah.
And she needed her support system there.
And Aham was part of her support system.
And Aham is a good person who cares about people really deeply.
And...
He needed to go to Portland to be with her during these really hard weeks.
And I remember being mad and being like, I'm not ready, and you never wait for me to be ready.
You just do whatever you want to do.
But then being like, what am I going to say?
No, you can't go.
You know I don't want to be the kind of person that says someone important to you is in pain, unimaginable pain.
And I'm going to sort of petulantly say, no, you need to stay here with me.
You know, I don't want to be that person.
And I simultaneously, I'm doing all this work in my own therapy.
Most of which is about me kind of remembering who I am, not as part of a couple because, especially in Since I had set it up as the perfect wife challenge, difficulty level, impossible I had really lost sight of who I was outside of that couple because my job was to do the couple and do it the best I could and do it you know.
And do it exactly how I thought Aham would want it.
You know, aside from the one thing he told me he did want,
And so I was starting to wake up those muscles of being just Lindy.
Who is that?
You know, and I was spending time with my friends more and I was spending more time alone and...
And so he left.
I was still uncomfortable and anxious, but.
Yeah.
You knew for the first time where he was and he was with this other woman.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I was like, I had to sort of imagine what they were doing.
And basically he started going regularly, like maybe once a month.
And it just got easier every time.
And I started to experiment with letting go.
What if I do picture what they're doing?
What if I do think about her?
What if I looked at her picture on Instagram and thought about her as a person who's not an adversary to me?
And the more I did that, it felt so much better than just being in denial and being scared and being fearful of losing control.
Because you actually can't control other people.
Should I be able to?
Yes.
Yeah, but the only person I can control is myself?
Like, my one wild and precious life?
I mean, so you're doing this personal work.
You're trying to figure out, like, who is Lindy?
You're trying to also, like, see Lindy as a person.
And you decide to embark on a kind of classic, I'd say, adventure of self-discovery the Great American Road Trip.
Tell me how this road trip factored into this work you were doing at this part of your life.
Yeah, so a hom starts going to see Roya once a month.
It gets easier and easier.
Eventually, I'm, like, loving it.
Yeah.
I'm like, oh, my God, I have a whole weekend to myself.
I'm going to do whatever I want.
I'm going to hang out with my friends.
I'm going to watch TV.
I'm going to get takeout.
Like it was great.
And then he would come back and I'd be like, oh, my God, I missed you.
And he was he missed me.
And it was so fun.
This is a big change.
This is progress.
I honestly like.
I don't even actually know how to articulate how this happened, but it did.
And a lot of it was just that process of letting go.
It was me letting go of fear and having curiosity to see what would happen.
And anyway, so then...
I get so addicted to that feeling of my time alone.
I'm watching Aham go out and have his journey of self-discovery.
And I'm like, where's my freaking journey?
You know?
I don't know that I want a boyfriend, but...
You know, I wanted to spend more time by myself.
I felt stifled by routine all of a sudden, where routine had always or being at home kind of cocooned had always been a thing that made me feel safe.
And I started to be like, what if there's more to life than this?
You know?
Yeah.
We'll be right back.
You said that things started to change when you began to look at Roy and Aham's relationship from a place of curiosity.
And it sounds like you're turning that curiosity onto yourself.
Like, what more can I do?
How can I grow?
How can I push myself? yeah, how can I, what are some other ways I could be brave?
So I woke up one day and I was like, uh-huh, I gotta go.
I was like, I'm gonna get, I said, I think I need to rent a van and go on a road trip by myself.
And he was like, okay.
It really just came to you like that in the dream?
Kinda, yeah.
It was very, it came to me fully formed.
Like I was suddenly like, I got to rent a van and I have to drive to Florida.
And I just wanted to set out into the unknown, which is exactly what I was doing inwardly.
I also was starting to feel so confined and claustrophobic from having just spent basically two years nonstop working on my marriage and having everything be about my relationship.
And I was like, I really, really wanted to spend some intensive time on my relationship with myself.
I was like, can we just live for a while?
What about me for once?
Yeah.
What about me for once?
And so I just wanted to go.
Was this something that I don't know Lindy of five years prior would ever conceive of herself doing?
No.
No, absolutely not.
Lindy of five years prior was desperate for a hom to do activities with her.
I just would never—and I would have been scared to leave him home alone.
Like, you know, is he going to fall in love with someone else while I'm gone?
And what am I going to do?
Well, that's my question.
That's my question, because a road trip sounds amazing, but it also does give Aham and Roya a lot of time to be together alone.
Did that cross your mind?
I'm sure it crossed my mind, but I didn't care, because I was so— hyper-focused on this thing that I wanted to do.
And because I had made a lot of progress.
I was like, great, spend time with Roya when I'm gone.
That was very powerful.
Yeah, it did feel powerful.
And I don't want it to sound like I'm sort of rationalizing how to do non-monogamy or not rationalizing like
Convincing myself to do it because Aham wants to do it.
At the beginning, absolutely, I was doing that.
By this point, when we've already been doing it and he's going away and I'm feeling this freedom and lightness and openness, I'm starting to be like this is better.
For me, it's nice to have...
Uh... a husband break sometimes.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, like it actually feels very true to me at this point that one person shouldn't be your whole life.
And that doesn't mean you have to be in a relationship with other people or whatever, but you should be in a relationship with yourself, for sure.
And this isn't me convincing myself to do something that Aham wanted to do.
At this point, I really...
I really liked it, and I was curious to explore it more.
What's your contact like with a hom while you're on the road?
Contact is, I would say, sporadic but intense.
But a kind of pivotal thing happened right before i left, where aham and i had like a little date, like little getaway.
We went and stayed at a hotel for a night and it was really fun and and like romantic and cute.
And that night was the first time i was like tell me about roya like in more detail.
But you know, he just described her and I just let it not scare me.
And then I was like, what does Roy think about me?
And he was like, well, she has a crush on you.
And I was like, excuse me?
And this was before you went on the road trip.
You were told that she had a crush.
Well, and let's just say there's nothing more electric than finding out someone has a crush on you.
Am I right?
I mean, it's just it's like the greatest gift in the world.
Besides, I don't know.
I know. commitment or love or whatever.
I mean, it's like, how did that make you feel?
It was very powerful.
I was immediately like, oh, I like her a lot more all of a sudden.
See, and that's what I was going to say.
There's no more surefire way to like someone more than figuring out that they like you.
It's like, you're awesome.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was like, exactly.
I was like, wow, she sounds pretty cool.
And I was like Yeah, it definitely.
And it's so funny because it's What a narcissistic response to be like oh, I like her all of a sudden.
I mean, that's just the human condition.
But also, it's normal.
It makes sense.
I don't know if I have a crush on her, but... Yeah.
Like I mean no, I think that's a really, It's a really important dynamic shift.
Actually, you know,
Because we talked before about how you know sort of nameless, faceless person that Aham was dating was threat level 100 for you right and now you know, i mean so much has already changed, but like to introduce this idea, at least you know, in one direction of attraction of a crush.
I mean that that changes this from threat to potentially desire or at least connection, and that feels yeah, that feels like something And it was honestly the first time in like a year that I felt, I think, totally calm.
Whoa.
Because she had just been this big cloud of mystery and suspicion.
And I was like how do I know that she's not trying to get rid of me so that you guys can be together?
And she's out there somewhere.
She's not out there thinking the vile stuff that is happening in my head.
You know what I mean?
She's out there thinking, oh, Lindy's beautiful.
And she seems so smart and interesting.
I would love to get to know Lindy.
And I'm processing my changing feelings about Roya.
While I'm on the road trip, texting with Aham, talking to him on the phone and being like How do I even describe it?
Because what's really happening is that I'm talking to Aham and being like tell me more about Roy having a crush on me.
Like, I'm like kind of fixated on this idea.
Yeah.
And I can't get it out of my head.
And I'm like, you know, I start to get really curious.
Like, what are you guys doing?
Who are you?
Are you hanging out with any of our friends?
Are you going to our favorite restaurants?
What are you eating?
Where are you staying?
What's happening?
You know, I just had this very... organic fixation on kind of knowing what was up.
In like a sexy way or in like a surveillance way?
In like, not a surveillance way.
Yeah.
I'm not going to go so far as to say a sexy way.
Sure, sure.
But it was like a neutral way or just a, just a, just a curious way.
Yeah, I get it.
You know, I just was like, what's up over there?
Yeah, yeah.
And not feeling threatened by it, it sounds like.
Curious, not threatened.
And I think I started to feel so soothed by I got it's like I got addicted to that feeling of safety and I wanted to keep doing it.
You know, do you know what I mean?
Like I liked the feeling of not having a stab of panic when Aham brought up Roya's name, because I had been in this fear state for like a year that someone was going to take my life away.
And I was like.
All of a sudden, I wasn't having that anymore.
And I was like, what is this new place?
I want to stay here where I feel.
Suddenly I feel nothing, and not necessarily nothing like nothing, with a hint of something nice.
Yeah.
I mean, it's this like triumphant nothing.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
It's like, and I you know, the circumstances of Aham and Roya's relationship haven't changed of anything.
They've intensified.
And you're more clued in than ever before.
And you're farther away than ever before, right?
So the safety you feel, that's you.
I mean, you've created that safety, no?
Yes, absolutely.
And that's why it was different, I think.
So the trip continues.
And in my recollection, I'm talking to Aham more and more about Roya.
And I don't remember specifically.
And I bought a phone that has like no storage on it.
So all my texts are gone.
So I can't look back, unfortunately.
But I believe what happened was this.
I bet Aham sent me, like, a sexy underwear pic of Roya with her consent.
Because I think they were talking about me also.
Because that's... If you want to get me... If you say, we've been talking about you... Oh, boy!
In a good way, in a good way, in a good way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, because I definitely remember him saying, like, Roya and I have been talking about you a lot.
So...
I'm sure he sent me like a cute pic of Roya being cute.
And I was like, okay, you can tell her that that's a beautiful photo or whatever.
I'm such a dork.
You may tell her that that is a beautiful photo.
I mean, that's a way to sext.
It's formal, but I'd say it works.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Side note, Lindy West, absolutely incapable of sexting.
But so then I'm like also throughout this, I'm reconnecting with Aham, I think in certain ways too.
Like it's fun to have like a long distance boyfriend that you can have flirty texts with.
Like every part of of separating myself from my old life and spending time alone is is more fun and has kind of a new life and a new flavor.
You know what I mean?
That rocks.
I know.
It's like, so Aham and I are flirting.
I'm asking about Roya.
We're having like sexy texts.
It's cute.
And then I was like, I think I was feeling sexy.
For once ever in my life.
And I took like a cute picture in my underwear because also I'm bored.
I'm just alone every day, all day in a van driving through Arkansas, whatever.
So I sent a cute picture in my underpants and I was like, and I was like.
I think you could show this to Roya if you want.
And then he did.
And then he was like, Roya wants to know if she can text you about your picture.
And I said, okay.
And then she was like and then she texted me and was like I'm sending you a beautiful picture of you.
You look so sexy, whatever.
And I was like, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
You're like fire react.
Yeah.
I, I was like, what am I doing this?
And I knew that this was crazy.
What am I doing?
This is a crazy thing to be doing.
Why?
What's why?
What?
Oh, well, I mean, I shouldn't say crazy.
I don't know.
It's not even that I'm quibbling with the word.
I'm just like, no, I know.
I know.
Yeah.
Um, Just an unlikely thing to have happen.
For you.
For you because it's what?
It's brave?
It's provocative?
Like, why?
Yeah, I am not brave in... I'm brave in certain ways.
In many ways, I am not brave.
And this is one of the ways in which I am not brave.
I'm not... Sexually.
Yeah, I guess so.
Yeah.
And also, just in...
I think that I make myself really vulnerable in my writing because actually I have a hard time being vulnerable in certain ways.
So it's like a decoy.
Like it's like ooh, look how vulnerable I am over here about these things that I don't actually feel that vulnerable about.
Yeah, that I'm willing to share.
Yeah.
Right.
And so then people – I get all this credit for being like so brave and vulnerable.
But really I'm like very tightly –
Tightly wound and afraid and private.
I'm very, very, very private.
And so to open up to a new person – and I have weird baggage around sex and I – as I've mentioned many times, like I really –
I'm afraid of the way people perceive my body.
I don't... I have been conditioned to believe that viewing my body is a nightmare.
Like, I don't want... And I feel safe with Aham, because we've been together 10 years.
I know that he loves me, and he's seen my body, you know, in my 20s, 30s, and 40s.
But it's just, like, my biggest... scariest chasm that I don't cross.
But it felt so in keeping with the road trip itself.
I was like, who fucking cares?
Oh my God, can I just live and just do something impulsive that feels right to me in this moment and not think everything to death?
And why do other people get to have curious, exciting sex lives and romantic lives and connections with other people?
And I deny myself that.
Why do I just hide all the time?
And why don't I just let myself live and just see what happens?
And so I did.
This is...
I am so charmed by that.
And also it just feels like some of the most reflective pre-sexy pic thoughts maybe someone's ever had.
You know, like when I'm sending like a cute pic, I'm like, I look good.
Ship it.
You know what I mean?
And you're like, what type of person am I?
Yeah, existential spiral.
All right, so you know, you have this, you have this i mean reckonings over there but it's like you send this thing, so what?
Now it's like okay, so we've all shared sexy pics with each other dot, dot.
Yeah, i think it becomes clear that the next thing we need to do is like hop on a call And like discuss what the heck is going on.
And so I'm driving through Kentucky.
Aham and Roya sent me... They were having a very terrifying heat wave in Seattle.
It was like 111 degrees in Seattle.
Oh, my God.
And here's what I remember.
I stopped for gas.
I stepped out of the van.
Kentucky was like a sauna.
Like...
My glasses immediately fogged up.
I'm sweating instantly.
It's a nightmare.
I'm pumping the gas.
I look at my phone.
There's like a selfie from Aham and Roya sitting at a bar in Seattle.
And I went to a Marriott and then Aham and Roya video called me.
And then I was like, are you guys okay?
Are you dying of heat stroke?
Was it hot?
Yeah, hot temperature or hot sex well that, i know it's hot in kentucky and seattle at this point.
No, was it hot like sexually?
Yeah, were you?
Yeah, i think so.
Yeah, there was like definitely incredible tension in the air, you know, it was like i think i think all of us were like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god um, and and also I don't want to make it sound easy, because also there's still the part of me that's terrified
And this is the first time I'm confronted with like seeing the two of them together and I'm away and they're together and you know they're like entwined, sitting at the bar in the air conditioning.
And so it's like inside me are two wolves.
One is having the time of her life and is like so electrified by this.
And the other one is definitely terrified and you know my intrusive thoughts were working overtime, being like this isn't real.
They don't really want you.
Look how much he likes her more than he likes you.
Look how affectionate he is with her.
You know what I mean?
Like all the meanest stuff that my brain can come up with is running on a little loop in the back, you know.
And then I'm using my new skills to sort of let them pass through and stay in the moment with what's actually happening in front of me, which is that I'm feeling really connected with this person now.
Who's beautiful and sweet and kind and funny and smart and who loves a hom and I love a hom.
And yeah, I don't know.
It was a very complicated video call.
But also fun.
But also fun.
And it's like all this stuff is happening under the hood.
But then also in the present moment of that call, can I ask you like you're feeling attracted to Roya sexually?
It sounds like.
Yes.
Yeah, for sure.
Had you been attracted to women in the past?
I mean, kind of idly.
Not, like, professionally, you know?
Minor league, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I feel like, I feel like I think maybe I thought everyone has some default baseline attraction to women because women are obviously the best.
They're like pretty.
Yeah.
So I think I just was like, well, who doesn't kind of like women, right?
Everyone.
So I never, I don't think I interrogated that much.
I knew that I was sort of, Mostly straight, but also I didn't really care that much.
I was like, yeah, sure.
I mean, who's into me?
What's going on out there?
Who was a pressure meat?
Raise your hand if you have a pressure meat.
Stay with us.
Eventually, the trip has to end.
After a month, when you came back to Seattle, was Roya there?
No.
She wasn't there.
But I got back on July 7th or 8th.
And Aham's birthday is July 30th.
And Aham had a show on his birthday.
He's a musician.
And so... I think I suggested... why doesn't Roya come up to Seattle for your birthday show?
And then... And he was like... We'll see what happens.
Oh, he was like... This is my dream.
Yeah.
I mean, I was like, I don't know.
I don't know what's going to, you know, maybe I'll meet her again and I'll be like...
No, I don't think so.
I'm not, I can't, I'm not, I'm not into this, whatever.
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I, but we were still like we.
The group chat was popping off this whole time.
Okay.
So I was pretty sure that I was going to like Roya in person, but I didn't know.
Sure.
And, um, so she came up to Seattle and, I picked her up at the train station.
Aham was like at soundcheck.
I went by myself to pick her up.
Also my idea, I think.
And I was like, She was instantly captivating.
She was just so pretty and so sunny and smiley.
Sunny for a goth.
Cool.
I know.
She's like a little sunshine goth.
It's a new kind of person just dropped.
Sunshine goth.
Make that a brand that really soon it's going to be stolen.
Yeah.
And then we went to the show and...
It was fun and like Roya and I stood together and like held hands and she didn't know anyone there and there were all these people from me and Aham's life and I introduced her to all these people.
How did you introduce her?
This is my friend Roya?
This is Aham's girlfriend Roya?
I don't remember.
I think maybe I just was like, this is Roya.
That feels easier.
Yeah, uh-huh.
It's a really good question.
I'm not sure.
But then... But we were, like, holding hands.
You know, we were definitely...
Obviously doing something.
Yeah.
Then we went to a bar after the show and.
Roy and I were sitting next to each other talking and then some drunk guy came up and like grabbed her arm and was like Oh, cool tattoo.
What you know and did.
That disgusting man thing of like a woman having tattoos means that you can touch her, and he grabbed her.
And I was like, I'm going to fucking kill that guy.
Like I had this protective feeling of like, don't you fucking touch her?
Like, what the fuck is wrong?
Like, I wanted to, like, fight this man.
And I stood up and I was like, we're fine.
Thank you.
Like, I kind of, like, bodied him away from us.
What did that... To me, this is what I'm hearing you say.
This night, was you realizing, like, oh, it's on.
And I want this.
Yes.
Like, you know, of course I might have done that for any... you know, friend of mine.
But the feeling I had was like, that's my girlfriend.
You know, like, don't touch her.
Why would you think you can just touch her?
Yeah.
And then we went to the hotel and we had sex and it was really fun.
The three of you or just the two of you?
The three of us.
And it was really fun and hot.
And then... But I'm skipping over that because I don't like to talk about sex.
Sure, sure.
And then...
And then the cutest part of the night is like I don't know, Aham has insomnia and is like never asleep.
But just like Roya and I, like Roya like fell asleep in my arms and we slept the whole night.
And I was like, why was this so comfortable?
You know why this was so like sweet and peaceful and easy?
And safe.
I get it, though, yeah.
Sleeping in a bed with a new person, and don't get me started on three people in a bed.
Too many people for a bed.
But even so, this first night, like, you slept well.
And it felt like, it just felt like a sign of something being right.
In 2022 you, Aham and Roya, sort of publicly announce what's happening in your relationship.
Can you tell me about that?
So by early 2022 we were a romantic triad.
We didn't really know how to launch because it feels like you shouldn't have to like.
It felt intrusive and stressful and I felt resentful about it.
I didn't want to have to... I don't know.
Why do I have to explain my life to people?
But it really was eye-opening to me how angry people are about non-monogamy.
And I think it's because everyone thinks that if it becomes normalized, then their husband is going to say
Now I need to have a girlfriend.
And I just want to say that you don't have to do that.
Right.
It would be optional if it were to become the law of the land or whatever.
Look, I wasn't looking for it, but it found me.
And so I relate because I too had that fear and it came true.
Except what I found on the other side was a way better life than before.
Why?
How?
For me.
Yeah.
I just feel so much more freedom for myself.
I have two people who love me instead of one.
You know, it occurred to me that maybe... I don't know about Roya, because she's very stable, but...
I think Aham and I both, as erratic artists, both of us may be a two-man job.
You know?
Like, I think... Like, it's nice to have another person to help me love Aham.
And I know that I also need a lot of love and validation and support.
You know?
And it's just...
Really, really just three people that live in a house instead of two.
And we like all help with the dishes.
That sounds kind of nice.
Yes.
So we're all three together.
Still, and now it's 2026.
And it really started like as soon as I got back from my road trip and basically started on Aham's birthday.
So we're into year five.
Amazing.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Earlier on, at the beginning of our conversation actually, when I asked you, you and Aham had just gotten married and I was like, what future did you want?
And you described that you were looking forward to a sort of classic marriage.
How do you feel about that now?
I feel like I customized my life to something that is the thing that I want.
And... and swapped that in.
I don't want to chase an ideal that someone else made up.
That's what this feels like to me.
It feels like I customized it.
I customized marriage to the specifications that are fun and fulfilling to me.
So I don't really think about it anymore.
And it just feels like things found their way to where we needed to be.
And no, that's so passive.
We worked really hard and created the life that we wanted.
Lindy West, my goodness, thank you so much for this conversation.
Oh my God, thank you.
This was so fun.
Lindy West's book, Adult Braces, Driving Myself Sane, comes out on March 10th.
The Modern Love team is Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg and Sarah Curtis.
This episode was produced by Reva Goldberg.
It was edited by Lynn Levy and Jen Poyant.
Our mix engineer was Daniel Ramirez, and we had studio support from Nick Pittman.
Original music in this episode by Diane Wong, Pat McCusker, Roman Nemistow, and Dan Powell.
Dan also composed our theme music.
The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones, and Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.
If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we've got those instructions in our show notes.
I'm Anna Martin.
Thanks for listening.
