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Hello and welcome back to the show.
I'm Patrick.
I'm here as always with Ben.
We're joined this week by our new friend, Trevor Reagan.
How are you, Trevor?
How are you, Ben?
Doing great.
Doing good over here.
Trevor, thank you so much for being here with us.
Ben and I sort of stumbled upon your website not too long ago, thelearnerlab.com.
We thought it was great.
We reached out.
You were kind enough to agree to come on the show.
And so we're excited to talk to you and get to know you a little bit.
I'd love to know a little bit more about you and a little bit more about The Learner Lab.
Can you tell us about it?
Yeah, I started about 14 years ago and originally it was just a blog where I'd interview authors and coaches and make little posts and videos about like what I learned.
At first it was mostly sports related, basically like how do we become better coaches?
How do we create better drills?
And, like through the years of doing that, I realized like oh, what I'm learning isn't just about how to make better basketball drills.
This is some principles of learning in general.
It's bigger than one particular sport and it's bigger than sports.
And so, yeah, it's been 14 years.
I tell people I spend half of my time learning and half of my time teaching.
The learning part I love.
So I go and find the scientists.
I don't just like read their books.
I go and hang out with the researchers, try to understand the science and then go around teaching it to different groups.
So we work with a lot of pro sports teams, but also a lot of like schools and corporate groups.
And the whole idea is getting good at learning is a good idea.
And here are the tools that can help you do that.
Yeah.
Love that.
All right, so what we wanted to talk to you about as I was perusing your site.
You've got a lot of good stuff.
And the thing I kept coming back to is the growth mindset, which is something that Ben and I have talked about at least a fair amount over the years we've been doing this show.
Not quite as long as you've been working on these things, but we've been doing the show about 9 or 10 years.
And the growth mindset certainly comes up every now and again.
We've never done a full episode on it, so I was excited to maybe chat with you and go deep on it with you.
I want to start though, with something that I think will bridge us into – a conversation about the growth mindset.
And that's something you have on the site that you I think you just call it the learner's manifesto.
Am I getting that right?
Yeah, the learner manifesto.
So I just want to read it and then let you talk about it.
And then again, we'll kind of bridge into a conversation about the growth mindset.
So this is the learner manifesto.
Believe in yourself.
You are a learning machine.
With good practice, you can get better at just about anything.
Ask questions, run experiments, learn from mistakes, adjust your tactics, be open to feedback.
Always remember that getting better is not pretty.
Struggle and discomfort are a part of the process.
It's okay to go slow.
It's okay to feel weird.
You don't have to master a skill for it to matter.
You just have to get kind of good, which can happen sooner than you think.
We are all learners.
We're learning all the time and we can all do it a little bit more.
Skills are built, not born, and they are yours if you earn them.
And so I thought that was a great place.
Well one.
I just thought it was great and I love it, but it right in there is embedded this idea of a growth mindset, right?
With good practice, you can get better at just about anything.
So, with that in mind, with that on the table, let's get into this conversation about the growth mindset.
Maybe Trevor, I would love it if you just sort of like gave us a refresher because again, we've talked about it before, but maybe just give us a refresher of what the growth mindset is.
What is it opposed to?
Where did it come from?
Where have you thought about it?
Where have you implemented it?
Yep.
So I think it's good to talk about it, that when a topic is popular and it's been around, like the learning and performance circles for over a decade, sometimes through the years we lose sight of what it is.
Sometimes we assume like, oh, we know that it doesn't matter.
And where I'm at with it now is.
It's not the solution to all of our problems, but it's a really important piece of any learning journey.
Like if we want to get better, if we want to grow.
I think a growth mindset is an important piece of the puzzle.
In a nutshell,
Like, if you get down to it, it's pretty simple, but I hope I want to make the case that it's really important.
So growth mindset is the belief that we can change and grow, build new skills, get better at stuff.
Opposite of a growth mindset is a fixed mindset, which is sort of this idea that i have the skills i have can't really change them very much.
So these mindsets have been researched by carol dweck, but a lot of by a lot of other researchers as well.
Carol dweck's from stanford.
A lot of her work was kind of in education, looking at how these mindsets impact, like learning in the classroom.
But, like i said, there's been researchers who look outside of the classroom.
Why do these mindsets matter?
For me, it's simple, but it's important to be clear.
Mindsets matter because they impact action.
So if you think about this fixed mindset idea that I have what I have and can't change Well, I'm probably not going to change very much.
Why?
Because I don't do the things that lead to change.
So, yes, I work in the world of learning.
You two are more in the world of like fitness performance.
Same rules apply.
So if I don't believe I can improve like my physical strength or health.
I'm probably not going to engage in the things that would actually lead to that.
And in a way that original belief becomes true.
So you take that out of fitness and put it into any skill and you just see like the example in education could be.
If my parents tell me I'm not a math person and I adopt that belief, you know, over time it becomes true because it robs me of practice and actioning and engagement every time i'm in a math class and every time i take a test.
So these mindsets influence action and in a way they're self-fulfilling which, if we're operating from that fixed mindset, can be hurtful for growth and learning.
But then you flip it a growth mindset is beneficial for learning.
Why?
Because if i believe in my capacity to change and grow and build new skills more likely to put myself into situations that would lead to that change, then I'm more likely to change.
Yeah, I like that.
You have this cool framework which I think you've abbreviated in some funky acronym of, like the self-fulfilling prophecy of how to get good at anything.
I really like that.
It rings very true to me.
I especially think it's one of the things I think is important for people to understand as they're listening through this is it can be modal, specific.
Right.
100 percent.
I grew up with a relatively fixed mindset around academics.
Yet when it came to business career, that it was very much a growth mindset.
It was like, hey, Ben, don't worry about it.
You're just not good at school where it was.
And this obviously stems from my parents.
It was, hey, if you work hard enough, you can achieve anything in business.
Right.
Right.
I also think it's really cool to see how this, through your work and Carol Dweck's work, how this has become more of a common language.
And it is.
I was so impressed when I went for the first time.
My kids are now teens and preteens.
But when they went to elementary school, this is all they talked about.
This was like this was the thing that the entire school was set up.
What was growth mindset?
Is that something you've seen?
Is it are we do we get lucky?
Or have you seen that kind of across the board that this is a much more embraced philosophy or approach to education?
No, it's picking up a lot of momentum right now, or not right now, but over the last seven, eight years.
And so, yeah, I visit schools all the time and it's an important piece of what they do.
But what you brought up earlier is huge.
And I want to highlight that that a common trap that people fall into when they talk about the research is sort of making it seem like you're one or the other, that you're always a growth mindset person or always a fix.
And the truth is, it's messier than that.
So it can change depending on a lot of things.
It could change depending on the skill you're trying to build, the mood you're in, the environment you're in.
And so they're more fluid than people realize.
And then, like you said, I like to look at it at the skill level.
So it's like, do I have a growth or fixed mindset towards this particular skill?
And then that can help me understand like OK, if I'm operating from a fixed mindset, there are some things I can do to change it.
Which brings me to where I want to get to is, I think the biggest mistake that people make when they talk about this research is we kind of live on the surface.
So we go, here's what a growth mindset is.
It's the belief you can grow and change, you get better.
The research shows that it helps you learn better when you have a growth mindset.
So you should have one.
And that's basically where I stop and where I've tried to spend my time and energy is to go deeper and say, all right, we know that the growth mindset is important.
We know that it helps learning and performance, but What can you do to develop one?
Or what are things you can do as a leader to help the people around you adopt more of a growth mindset?
And like the standard I set for myself is it can't just be you need to have one.
You like have to go deeper than this.
And so I've been, like I said, trying to figure out like, what are the best building blocks for ourself?
If we're in a leadership role, what are some good building blocks for like the people we work with?
So what are those?
What are the best building blocks?
Best one.
I focus on three.
They're not the only three, but these are my favorites.
So one is, and it seems so simple, but it is effective.
One is to just take a step back and reflect on the fact that we're all learning all the time.
So every person listening right now.
And from the looks of it, it's a lot of people.
Congrats on that.
Everyone listening right now is good at all sorts of things.
And those skills all have two things in common.
Once upon a time, you weren't as good at that thing as you are now.
And that was changed through experience.
So, out of the like, the thousands and thousands of skills that like, we all have right here on this podcast, they all have those two things in common, which means we built those things.
Now, OK, this seems simple, but let's take a step back and kind of dissect it.
If we're better now than when we started, it's proof we built the skill.
And then this is proof of this bigger idea that we're learning all the time.
Everybody is changing and learning every week and every month and every year.
Yet sometimes we don't recognize the growth.
Sometimes we don't give ourselves credit for it.
And by reflecting on those skills that we've learned in the past.
It's a way of providing evidence that sort of reinforces this growth mindset, belief.
So it's I believe I can learn because I've learned before.
And again, simple, but it is, I think, carries more weight than just saying, yep, you can grow.
It's like, no, you can grow.
And the proof is you are who you are.
Like you've earned your way here.
Everything that you do in your life is supported by skills you've been learning.
So the proof that we're capable of learning is the fact that we are who we are.
We're in the position we're in.
And everything that we have done and achieved and everything that we do is supported by stuff that we've been learning our whole life.
What were the other ones, what were the other, what were the other?
Okay, okay.
So this one kind of just logical next step, so if we're saying you can look backwards at skills you've built yep, and that can build up the belief.
Another approach is look forwards and gather more skills so learn more stuff, And that is again providing me evidence and momentum.
So there's a bunch of schools that I work with at all levels college, high school, middle school and they're starting the school year out with a project we built called the Anti-Talent Show.
And this is like my favorite thing we've ever made.
Yeah, let's go.
And Anti-Talent Show is every teacher, every student picks something that they can't do.
You get to practice it for two weeks and then they hold the Anti-Talent Show.
And so We built it, because it's a more tangible way of teaching growth mindset to these students than sitting a bunch of seventh graders down at the start of the school year and saying hey, you should have a growth mindset.
This is.
This is let's go through the learning process where they're connecting the dots of like wow, two weeks ago I couldn't juggle.
Now I kind of can.
And that was changed through practice.
And by taking the students through the learning process where they see some progress, they use that as a platform to explain like, what a growth mindset is.
So like, what does this mean for us?
It's when we put ourselves into a situation where we build and develop a new skill, even if it's small.
That again is evidence like I can grow with good practice.
That strengthens the belief that can lead to more momentum.
We can build new skills.
Real quick, Ben, though.
Let me just clarify something real quick.
We keep using the words learning and growing.
Trevor, are those two synonymous to you when you say learning and growing, or is there enough distinction there worth mentioning?
I think they're the same.
Okay, cool.
Learning, growing, getting better.
I think the same rules apply.
So when I even think of learning and fitness, it's okay.
What are the rules of getting stronger, building a muscle?
I think those rules are kind of the same as building a skill, which is I have to do a thing, quite a bit and find productive struggle to really create the change that I'm seeking.
Well, that's true for building a muscle.
That's true for building a skill.
And then maybe the third piece would be it doesn't happen overnight.
So it's like it'd be awesome if I could do like a bunch of push ups and wake up in the morning and I'm jacked.
But of course, that's not how it works.
And learning is the same.
It's like I can't just like master a skill in the first attempt.
So it's this combo of Lots of action, a bit of struggle and patience, I would argue are like totally aligned with like fitness and learning.
And so again, these words can kind of be interchangeable the growth learning, getting better at stuff.
Got it.
OK, so we have this past.
Everything I everything I can do now is because I've learned in the past.
We came into this world with no skills.
We were even walking.
Talking is all 100 percent.
And then we have hey, there is this forward thinking of if, with the right amount of action, I can turn a non-talent into a semi-talent.
And we have this anti-talent show as proof in the pudding.
Did you say that there was a third as well?
Yep.
The third is the knockout punch.
And it's understanding the basics of neuroplasticity.
So this is not new research, been around for a while, but...
In a nutshell, it's saying, so neuro is brain, plasticity means it can change.
So this is the research that shows when we learn stuff, our brains change in the process.
Okay.
Why does this matter?
So one study that kind of proves the point is famous.
It comes from London, where this researcher named Eleanor McGuire she studied brains of London cab drivers.
And to be a London cab driver, they go through this really intense training.
They don't use GPS.
They have to memorize all the streets and restaurants of London.
So it's pretty hardcore.
And she studies their brains and looks at a region of their brain called their hippocampus.
And this part of your brain is associated with memory.
And what she found is the hippocampus of the London taxi drivers is bigger and more developed than normal people.
So what is this study saying?
It's not saying to be a good cab driver, you need a big hippocampus.
It's saying, being a cab driver fired those pathways in their brain and it changed that region of their brain.
So that action over time changed their brain neuroplasticity.
And then to connect it to growth mindset a few years ago.
I'm interviewing this guy named Michael Merzenich.
And in the world of neuroscience, he's like the Michael Jordan.
So he's he's like known as the father of neuroplasticity.
So big time researcher.
And the interview is fantastic.
But there is this moment where he, just kind of like, looks at the camera and he goes.
I've been studying brains since the 70s.
And my research is clear that. virtually anyone can get better at pretty much any skill.
That doesn't mean you're going to master every skill.
It doesn't mean it happens overnight.
But if it's a skill and you actually practice it, you can for sure get better at it.
Absolutely everyone can get better at virtually any skill.
And so to me, connecting it back to growth mindset, it's like okay, you kind of understand this high level concept of neuroplasticity.
It's basically saying you can grow, you can learn, whereas growth mindset is I believe I can learn.
Neuroplasticity is saying you can.
And so understanding that piece of the puzzle with the other two, I think, really combine to create a solid foundation for, like a true growth mindset where it's backed by evidence of things you've done, things you can do.
And it's backed by the evidence of decades of research that shows brains are learning machines.
They're designed to learn new stuff.
And so, with those three, I think that's going to put us in a better position to operate from a growth mindset.
More often doesn't mean we're going to do it every moment of our life, but we're going to spend more time there.
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It sounds like across those three the past there's the proof the belief in the future and the science, to kind of like put it all together
What we're really doing is forging a new identity.
Yeah.
We're changing it from this idea.
And I really like Tom Bilyeu, Impact Theory.
The idea that he said he really started to take off in his career when he stopped self-identifying as the smartest guy in the room to the best learner in the room.
I am the best student and I can, I will learn anything.
And it changed this idea of like having to prove myself pass fail.
If I don't know something, I'm a failure.
And this constant like level of stress to just this other curiosity.
Is there other, yeah.
Are there other traits, you know pass, fail versus curiosity and otherwise, that we can kind of go?
Oh, Maybe I am a little more fixed in that category than I thought.
Or maybe if I leaned more into that, it would help change my identity.
For me, the identity, I agree with him.
It's like, I want to be the learner.
And a growth mindset is a piece of that.
But there are other things as well.
Opposite of the learner is the knower.
And the knower is one.
It's like I don't want to admit that I don't know everything and therefore I'm going to never put myself into scenarios where that might get proven wrong.
Right.
Like where it's like, oh, now they see I'm actually not the knower.
So I like limit my growth by not putting myself into situations where that identity isn't true.
And I think that can really, really hurt learning.
Like I get to work with some amazing leaders in what I do.
And the funny thing is it's like so like Karch Karai, he's used to be the US women's volleyball head coach.
Now he's the men's coach.
He's also the best male volleyball player to ever live.
So this is like big time guy.
And he is one of the most hungry learners I've ever seen.
He has mastered the sport.
He's literally won the award as the best volleyball player ever, and he's one of the most hungry learners, which is why he's one of the best leaders.
But then I'm in Texas doing professional development at a school and I see the high school football coach there who won a state championship 11 seasons ago and refuses to change anything from what he was doing 11 seasons ago.
That, to me, is this... contrast of learner versus knower.
And it's easy to fall into that trap of being the knower, especially when you achieve some level of success, because it's like oh, I did this thing and it worked.
And therefore, if I just rinse and repeat and never change, maybe it'll happen again.
But the truth is, so much goes into success that I think that's like the wrong lesson to take, which is run the same plays, use the same clipboard, do the same drills, talk to the players the same way.
It's like, yeah, that's not the best way to do this.
Turns out the clipboard was not the key to your success.
Exactly.
It's like water boy.
I lost the clipboard.
I don't have the plays.
I can't do it.
That resonates so deeply because me myself working with these really high-level athletes once they
It particularly happens almost it happens all the way up the chain.
But as they particularly become successful, they the the, the fear is putting themselves in situations where they're not going to be the best.
So this is a world champion that is in the gym training.
The goal should be to learn and grow.
Yet they're seeing everything as a pass fail.
And if I do this workout against somebody that is supposedly not as good as me and that athlete beats me?
The level of vulnerability that it takes to be the learner is high because you're going to as the knower.
What you're going to do is self-select yourself out of situations where you might fail, and you're just not going to put yourself in that situation.
You can see this in professional sports all the time where people give up.
And they go like – because it gives them the out.
It's like, well, I just didn't – they get down by a certain amount.
Imagine a tennis match.
And all of a sudden, tennis is such a mental game.
That's why I bring it up.
They get down by – they lose the first set.
And the next set is 4-0.
And they just like stop trying.
And that's the thing.
They give themselves the out.
Yeah, but I didn't try.
And it's so hard to move from that because it takes – you're exposing yourself.
Hundred percent.
I'm not good at in our world, like I'm not good at rope climbs, Katrin, right?
I'm not going to work on that in the gym and show all these other people around you that you're not bulletproof.
That you have weaknesses is hard.
How do you work with people in terms of becoming more vulnerable?
So to me, it's growth mindset can help that, but then it doesn't quite complete the puzzle.
So it's like, okay, I believe I can get better at dancing.
So I have a growth mindset towards dancing.
That's what it is.
It's I believe I could build that skill.
A lot of the times when I have a chance to dance, I don't.
Why?
It's not because I all of a sudden slipped into a fixed mindset or forgot what a growth mindset is.
I don't dance because I don't want to look bad and feel weird and be embarrassed.
It's sort of like this discomfort that's robbing me of action.
So the idea is sometimes in life we don't learn stuff because we don't think we can.
Other times in life we resist or avoid learning opportunities because we don't like how it feels.
And like there's this completely other area of research that's also effective around, like improving the way we think and talk and respond to stress and discomfort.
And there's a lot of applications in the world of performance, but I think it's huge for learning.
So it's just understanding that every learning journey is going to involve challenge.
Change stretches out of your comfort zone.
And those things don't necessarily feel good.
And if I have this mindset that feeling uncomfortable is bad, I'm probably not going to put myself into these situations.
And then this research around improving our mindset towards stress shows it's not fun to be stressed.
It's probably never going to be fun to be stressed.
So we can't go complete 180 of like, yeah, change your mindset towards discomfort.
It's actually really fun to be nervous and stressed and uncomfortable.
But they're finding that helping people understand that it's normal and expected and OK can actually help them do it more.
And like my comp, if you take it back to fitness.
We working out is struggling on purpose.
Like that's literally what it is.
So we know that to get stronger, run faster, you have to add weight, change the amount of reps, change the amount of rest.
And all of it is just inducing different types and amounts of struggle.
And we know we have to do that to see results, to get stronger, to get faster.
So we struggle on purpose.
We don't necessarily love the struggle, but we understand the value of it.
And so then we're more likely to do it.
And so you can kind of use the same logic when it comes to like learning and discomfort, where hey, I'm not saying you need to love being uncomfortable.
But what I am saying is that feeling doesn't mean you're on the wrong path.
It doesn't mean you're doing something wrong.
It's like this is how humans feel if they're being stretched out of their comfort zone.
And helping people understand that allows them to deal with that stress more effectively, be more open to it.
It's never going to be fun, but it's so much better than the alternative, which is sort of this traditional mindset which is it's bad to be nervous.
It's bad to be stressed.
It's bad to be uncomfortable.
And then if something makes me feel those things that I'm like, oh.
Something's wrong with me.
I'm not ready or that thing is bad.
And so I'm going to avoid things that make me feel weird versus improving my mindset towards it helps me engage with that a little bit better.
And it also makes us so fragile because even when we don't engage like chase after moments or opportunities or contacts, where that discomfort shows up, it's going to show up somewhere.
It's just an everyday life.
And if we haven't, you know, to keep the gym analogy going, if we haven't trained that a little bit, then how do we respond when the inevitable does happen?
I love that we're getting, I love that we're kind of hitting on this idea.
You said something like discomfort impedes action, which is, I think, so true.
Can I talk about two things to round this out?
You just teed it up.
It's perfect.
So, okay.
It's one thing to tell people like yeah, it's okay to be uncomfortable, and changing your mindset and adopting that belief is good.
But like, again, we got to be better.
It's like, what tools could you give them to help them do that?
Here's what helps me.
Little equation that helps in most scenarios.
Caring plus uncertainty equals discomfort.
Caring plus uncertainty equals discomfort.
And so this equation shows a couple of things.
One, it shows you how to never be uncomfortable in life.
It's easy.
Don't care about anything and don't do things that involve uncertainty.
And you're going to feel awesome.
But it's going to be great.
But if the goal is to grow and change and learn and lead and connect, you have to do things that involve uncertainty probably going to care about those things, which means you're going to feel.
So the idea is if we're going to do meaningful work, we're going to do things that matter.
There's going to be difficult emotions involved.
But that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing.
So this equation helps me a lot.
Like when I'm nervous before a workshop, In the past, it used to be, oh, damn, I'm nervous.
That's bad.
I must not be ready.
I didn't practice.
I'm not prepared.
Now it's I'm nervous.
That means I care.
That means there's uncertainty.
And so you think about it's the same initial feeling.
But that equation helps me interpret that feeling in a better way.
Now I'm in a better position to deal with the situation itself compared to, oh, I'm nervous.
That's bad.
I'm not good enough.
Something's wrong with me.
Now I'm on a completely different path in a different direction.
So that equation helps a lot.
And then what you said that kind of got me down like this rabbit hole. this can be trained.
So I found this really cool experiment.
They bring people into a lab that are afraid of spiders and heights.
And so they take half of the people through two hours of exposure therapy, helping them to face their fear of spiders.
So everyone does it by themselves.
Two hours of training really helping them face their fear of spiders.
So they complete their two hours of training.
Then two things happen.
One is obvious, but it's important.
The other is unexpected and amazing.
So obvious result is this.
For the people who complete exposure therapy towards their fear of spiders, it ends up reducing their fear of spiders.
Now, that's obvious, but it's important.
What they're showing is that's a skill that can be developed.
This skill of I feel weird, but I like do the thing anyways.
And it starts small, but over time I build it up.
I'm building up this skill.
I'm better at facing discomfort.
The unexpected outcome of that experiment though, was the people who finish exposure therapy towards spiders.
It reduces their fear of heights, which was untrained, unrelated.
And so what that's saying is, yes, this is like a skill, but in a way it's like a muscle.
Like, as you build this muscle of facing into discomfort, even in small ways, over time, you build this muscle and it can spill over and help me in other situations.
And to me, that might be one of the most underrated upsides of fitness and exercise, because what you're doing is you're constantly training yes, your physical muscles, but this muscle of wow.
There's so much discomfort in this world of fitness, but i'm constantly putting myself into these situations where i feel weird, but i do it anyways.
I feel weird but i like engage in this exercise that i don't necessarily want to do, that can actually spill over outside of the gym, which is sweet.
So if you know that, if you know this is a skill that can be developed through practice and it's a muscle that spills over, Two things can happen.
One.
It helps you reframe the difficult situations you face, because now you're like okay, this thing is happening.
Don't feel great about it.
And nothing I do is going to make me feel great about it.
But I start to frame it as a rep.
This is a rep of dealing with discomfort.
And that can help me be better at this skill.
And it's a valuable skill.
And the other thing is I can chase more reps.
So I can find ways to struggle on purpose or face into discomfort, even if it's small.
But by doing it more, I like... speed up the learning.
And what does this mean?
I'm not saying go do the thing that freaks you out the most tomorrow, but it could be as small as like okay, I know I don't like speaking up and that has robbed my growth, because I've had questions and because I feel weird I don't ask them.
So I'm going to make the commitment of even though I feel weird, I'm going to raise my hand a bit more often.
So that's like chasing these reps of feeling weird and doing the thing.
And again, this mindset of.
Every time I do it, I get better.
The more I do it, it can help me in other situations.
You see that like we're reframing the value of those situations.
And then again, people are more likely to do it.
I love that, reframing the value of these situations so much, especially through that prism of that equation caring plus uncertainty equals uncomfortable, slash tough emotions.
Exactly.
Dot, dot dot, which then means this is what it means, which then means you're doing meaningful work.
100%.
That is so like, yeah.
Okay, so then where you go is like just makes so much sense right, like you get frustrated with your kids.
Yes, it's like if you didn't care, you wouldn't be frustrated.
So it gives you this immediate, like feedback loop of okay, you're doing the meaningful work.
Right, this is a rep you're building.
This is the work.
Now you're in the gym, the mental gym, the emotional gym, whatever it is to become more, and tying it back to patrick, you're to become more Anti fragile.
Right.
So you have 100 percent.
You're working through life.
If you just avoided these things all the time, what you end up doing is not living an awesome life.
You end up creating this, this really fragile life that needs to be curated in a bubble because anything actually could break you.
And it's the opposite.
This is not just actually working towards resilience, which is get knocked down, get back up.
But to your point, Trevor, it's you start to struggle on purpose.
Like you seek this out like you're in the gym.
Phenomenal framework.
So we we've landed in this is kind of unexpected, but we've landed in a sweet place.
So we've talked about kind of two different things, growth mindset and this mindset towards stress.
I would argue that that is sort of the most solid foundation for any sort of change or learning journey or growth.
And this idea of I can grow and I'm open to the discomfort that comes from growth is like where we want to be.
And there's like a study that backs it up.
I can explain it in like two minutes, but it's fun.
So you go into a lab.
Someone comes up to you.
They go in five minutes.
You have to give a speech to judges about your personal strengths and weaknesses.
And then they like leave you alone to freak out for five minutes.
So five minutes goes by.
You go out into the next room and you begin your speech.
And what you don't know is that the judges are part of the experiment.
So they're trained to give you only negative nonverbal feedback while you talk.
So it doesn't matter what you say.
The judges are arms crossed, shaking heads, frowning.
So this is like super, super uncomfortable.
Then you finish your speech.
Now you have to count backwards from 996 by sevens.
Every time you mess up, the judges call you out and you have to start over.
So this whole initial experiment.
It's a way for these researchers to create stress, but then they can test the ways that people deal with the stressful situation.
So they have four groups of people.
One group is taught only growth mindset.
Then they go to this task.
Second group is taught only stress mindset.
The second piece that we just talked about.
Third group is taught nothing.
Fourth group, they called the synergistic mindset group.
What does this mean?
They taught them both growth and stress.
Group four smashes the other groups.
So, OK, interesting.
The researchers wanted to see, does this work in the real world?
So for two years, they expand the experiment.
They measure students from private universities across the US.
They measure high school students from like really low income neighborhoods.
And then they measure real stuff like academic performance health, how people face challenges, how they deal with stress in their life.
What they found was sweet.
No matter which group they looked at And no matter what they measured.
When people are taught the combo of growth and stress improved health, how they face challenges, how they deal with and regulate stress and how they perform.
So like all these things that we want, it was the combo.
And so what does this mean?
It means growth mindset's great.
Stress mindset's great.
And when you combine them, it's even better.
And like I said, this logically kind of makes sense.
Like, if we're like okay, let's create in a lab someone who's great at change and learning and adaptability and someone who's resilient.
What mindsets should we start with?
Well, I think the belief that the change is possible is good, but then so is this belief.
I don't love feeling stressed and uncomfortable, but I'm open to it.
It's like, again, that combo is really, really great.
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Have you seen Chris Helmsworth's show Limitless?
I think so.
Let me look it up.
I just can't like it popped in my head when you're talking about the anti-talent show, because it's they actually credit to my kids.
My kids are in public school and they tell us they're showing this to the kids, which is awesome.
And they talk about. the growth mindset and the neuroplasticity and handling stress.
And you can learn the first episode of season two.
I won't spoil for everybody, but he has.
He can play the guitar like a tiny bit like where he's not like.
Obviously he knows how to do it.
So they're like they take a skill that he doesn't have musically because it's what they want to do.
And he has no talent with the drums at all.
They show him.
It's like horrific.
And they're like I forget the time frame, but in X number of weeks you're going to go on stage with Ed Sheeran in front of 85000 people and play the drums during this song.
And obviously he freaks out.
But it's like, it's so cool.
I love it.
It's so cool to show all of this stuff and how it's being brought to life in these different ways.
And just the signal of this is a very successful, famous person.
And if they want to get better at something, there's going to be struggle in that process.
So because sometimes you think of a high performer, Olympic athlete, a famous actor like oh, they're just good at everything.
It's not true.
It's like they earn those skills in different ways.
And if they want to get better.
Better at other stuff, they have to struggle.
It's so good.
You're spot on.
I become so... I don't even really know who Chris Holmes was.
I don't watch movies, but I guess he's an action hero guy.
And he's very dreamy.
His eyes are amazing.
I have him pulled up right now.
Yeah, we've lost you, Trevor.
He's just staring at us.
I totally lost my train of thought where I was going to say that.
Oh, his level of, as you said, like here's a guy that doesn't need to put himself out there and expose himself to like I'm not good at this failure.
He could curate his life however he wanted to.
And the amount of respect that I have for that of like.
Not only am I going to go behind the scenes and work on these things because I know they're good for me.
I'm going to do this in a way that's incredibly public to help share this, to help other people.
I think it's so phenomenal.
I agree.
I think it's awesome.
I want to start to move us towards our close here.
And one of the things you said Trevor, at the top of this, is that you spent half your time sort of learning and half your time teaching.
I think anybody who's paid any attention to these things in terms of learning one of the things that's often comes up is one of the best ways to learn is to teach somebody else.
And so one of the things we wanted to talk to you about is okay, all these ideas, we certainly they apply to ourselves, right?
And I love this sort of synergistic mindset.
And one of the ways for us to truly begin to learn these is to turn them around and try to teach other people.
Can you talk to us a bit about how you and how you've seen others effectively help other people move towards a growth mindset, towards this sort of useful stress mindset?
What kind of tools, what kind of tactics, what kind of practices can we put into place so that not only are we learning these things, not only are we implementing them, but the kids students athletes, etc.
?
So I think for both of them, 85% of it is walking the walk.
So it's like, you want the people around you to adopt a growth mindset?
We should be modeling those type of behaviors ourself.
We need a growth mindset ourself.
You want the people around you to be more open to stress and discomfort?
We have to be good with dealing with stress and discomfort.
So that's the easy answer.
And then we can go bigger.
Okay, so anti-talent show.
I visit one of the schools after they do it.
I'm sitting in a room with 25 seventh graders and I asked them like okay, what was your favorite part?
Most of the kids are just talking about the skills that they learned.
But then one student raised her hand.
She goes.
The best part was that I got to see my teacher struggle and that helped me understand.
It's OK for me to struggle too.
So like that is this in a nutshell that the teacher was learning a different skill than the student.
So it wasn't the teacher just saying, here's how to ride a skateboard or juggle.
The teacher was modeling the learning process, the willingness to try something, to struggle a bit.
It's like exactly like this Limitless show, but it was happening in the classroom.
And by the teacher being vulnerable and putting those learning behaviors on display, she created an environment where it's safer for the students to do the same.
And so again, the value of like what actions do we want to see more of from the people around us?
How do i kind of put more of this on display, like that's going to get us a long ways from the leadership perspective.
And then the other is you go back to growth mindset.
Those three tools that we talked about are good for us, but those are good things to have in your back pocket during conversations with others.
This, okay we reflect On the skills we built, we can learn new things and we understand the brain neuroplasticity.
So it's.
Tell me about something you're good at.
How did you get good at that thing?
Even if it's a video game or something like not important, they still are better now than when they started.
And so, again, you're kind of taking them through that reflection.
Then it's OK.
Let's learn something new.
Let's pick something small.
Let's pick something fun.
Let's pick something that you're excited about.
And by guiding them through the learning process, where they get to see results and, as a leader, pointing out the results.
Sometimes, when you're in like a learning journey and you're in the weeds, you don't see the results that are actually happening.
So there's students who are like actually making progress in math, but they don't see it.
So they have this idea that I like, I can't do this.
This sucks.
I can't change, but they're changing.
So pointing out that progress is good and then connecting it all to the brain.
We don't have to like overcomplicate it, but it's like hey, did you know?
Every time you do this, your brain is like changing a bit and it's wiring up these pathways.
And over time, like that's how you build these skills.
So that would be my advice for growth mindset, stress mindset stuff.
It's this again, going back to that equation, that equation of caring plus uncertainty equals discomfort.
So that equation can guide our conversations.
So let's say we're parents and our kid is in high school and they're going through a breakup.
It's really easy to be like yo you're fine, because we know with like our perspective.
That's true.
We know that the high school breakup is going to be a pretty small like speed bump, in the scheme of things,
But to say like, oh, it's no big deal.
You're fine is kind of like denying the fact that they're actually not fine, like they're hurting.
And so then the question is, what would be better?
Well, it doesn't have to be like a 90 minute lecture about emotional intelligence, but seven seconds with that equation in our pocket might sound something like this
How you're feeling right now is not fun.
It is not fun to feel this way at all.
But how you're feeling right now.
It doesn't really mean that you're weak or did something wrong, and it doesn't mean you're doing something wrong.
This is what it feels like when you lose something you really care about.
And like I said, it's not fun at all, but this is normal.
And I promise as time goes by, this will be better.
This will feel better.
So what we did in those seven seconds, a little bit of permission to fuel and a little bit of like yeah, you cared.
Now you're faced with uncertainty because like you just got dumped or whatever.
We're not telling them just be tough.
We're not telling them just like you're young.
It doesn't matter.
We're kind of just helping them understand.
The pain is coming from this combo of caring and uncertainty.
And then, as the adult, we zoom them out and say, with some perspective, like yes, this is going to get better.
I promise.
The whole argument is those seven seconds are a lot better than it's no big deal.
You're young, you're fine, and then you could just like take that conversation.
And it can turn into so many things if we're talking to someone before an important performance instead of oh, just don't worry about it, like calm down, you're fine, it's Yeah, like this is what it feels like when you do something you care about.
Like this is a sign that you really care about this moment.
And there's some uncertainty.
It's like, that's good.
That's normal.
That's how we should feel before a big thing.
We want you to care so much better than just like, don't worry about it.
Yeah, I think that I'm a big believer in the power of words and language and the conversation piece that you use.
It's a great example of using that framework of caring.
Uncertainty equals discomfort, and how to use that productively moving forward.
Carol Dweck in Mindset talks really well about how the power of words for teachers can really impact the students.
The example they give is they give students test back and on the top of half the kids it says great job, you're really smart.
And the ones get, great job, you worked really hard.
They retake a test that's a couple grade levels above them, that you're smart people fail horrifically.
The or maybe not that, but the the you worked really hard group outperforms the really smart people because your your language you have.
We have responsibilities as leaders, teachers and people that are trying to.
We have a responsibility to help them understand and identify as growth mindset instead of these fixed traits.
100%.
I'm glad you brought it up.
It's the perfect place to kind of wrap up.
So what happened is even it's wild.
So you're right.
Like they do a test.
They get praised.
You're smart.
You worked hard.
So then the next one is a more difficult test.
But what they found is the group that was praised for being smart gives up earlier than the group that was praised for being hard workers.
Why?
Because it's, oh, I'm valued for looking good and being smart.
This is making me not look smart.
I'm out.
So it's like their decision making process is influenced by the feedback and praise they received versus the other group who's, oh, I feel valued when I work hard.
Now this is a moment for me to work hard.
So you're setting like my words are setting like sort of the bar of the values.
And then the people in the environment are going to do what they have to do to win that game.
We select which game we're creating in that environment.
So, yeah, that study was fascinating.
And it's perfect.
It shows like such a small difference, if you think about it, can lead to like a big gap in like how they approach a new situation.
What I found fascinating Trevor, digging into your stuff, was something that I wasn't as aware of, or at least through this awesome framework that you said, is it's not only the words that we use can set our students, our kids or anyone else up, our employees up for change, success or failures.
It's our own belief system about their abilities.
Oh, yeah.
Right.
So if we label someone in our heads and it might not even be true as smart or dumb, how this actually can you?
Can you explain a little bit about what we're leaning into here?
Yeah.
So this guy, Robert Rosenthal, researches this and it's basically so Dweck is more individual focus.
Like, how does my mindset impact me?
This is how does my mindset about the people I lead impact their development?
And so he's this guy's when I met him, he's 90 years old.
He's been researching this topic for a long time.
And like we made a video about it.
I'm trying to the best way to explain it is.
One of his most famous experiments he goes to a school, he gives a presentation to the teachers and he goes.
I've developed a better IQ test and my test is better because I can identify academic bloomers.
Maybe not the students with like the best grades now, but I can predict which ones will make the most progress over the course of a year.
So then they give the students this exam.
They process the results.
They give the school a list of 20 names.
They go, boom, these are the students that will make the most progress this year.
He comes back a year later.
They give all the same students the same exam.
And the students on the list do way better than the students that are not.
So the teachers are amazed.
They're like, wow, how do you do this?
How do you identify an academic bloomer?
And then he goes, I just gave you 20 random names.
And so this is interesting because the students were unaware of the label.
So they didn't tell those students like you're a bloomer.
So it wasn't about their mindset.
But what happened when they looked at the data, they found that if a student was struggling.
But their name was on the list.
The teachers would kind of dig in and work with them.
It's like, oh, they're a bloomer.
We have to figure this out.
They would also teach the bloomers more and more difficult material.
So more reps, more challenges, more support.
That's probably going to lead to more growth.
And the kind of the funny thing is it's like we talked about like self-fulfilling prophecies.
But this is.
This is a big one, which is my beliefs about the people i lead, change the way i treat them and in a way, it can become true.
And so there's examples of this in the real world, like all over the place, but i think the takeaway here is okay.
What does it mean for us as leaders?
How do we use this information to be a better leader?
I think it kind of goes back to that identity of being a learner.
So it's, of course, every person that you lead isn't the same.
And if I'm a math teacher, they're not all going to like master algebra this semester.
And my all my basketball players aren't going to be able to shoot 42 percent from the three point line this season.
But all these students in my math class are learners.
Some are better at math than others, but they can all get better at math.
And all the basketball players that I coach can improve their shot because they're learners.
And so that word holds us accountable as a leader.
Now, instead of putting people in boxes, they're smart, they're dumb, they're good, they're bad.
You're not a leader.
You're not a people person.
You're not a math person. instead of putting them in those boxes it's we're all different and of course we're going to talk about our strengths and weaknesses and live in reality here but all these people around me are humans they have brains which means they're capable of change and growth and learning everyone's a learner and now i need to treat them accordingly doesn't mean i'm fake with everyone this doesn't mean you tell everyone they're the best at everything it's like hey you know and i know math isn't your strongest skill but skills can be built and with some practice and struggle and experimentation you can get better at this skill and i'm here to help and that's way better than you're just not a math person and so i i'm glad you brought it up because i think that research deserves more attention and the application is actually straightforward and simple and it's basically believe in the capacity of all the people around you, believe in their capacity to grow and then treat them accordingly.
And that can guide our conversations and feedback and praise and critiques.
But like I said, it's so simple.
What I particularly love about that research is when the teachers are working with those students that have been labeled as bloomers and they're not blooming.
It forces them to take a look at themselves.
It's like maybe I'm not teaching this the right way.
If you give someone else the benefit of the doubt and then you look back at yourself instead of like – lobbing bombs over the fence right yeah, it's.
Therefore, they're just not, they're not going to do.
Well, they're not going to.
They're not smart, they're not going to.
It's, they're not bright, it's like well, they are bright.
They're not responding to my style.
Yeah, it forces me to, and i, you know, i coach training and we see this all the time, particularly with young coaches is, once they run out of their toolbox of tips tricks cues, whatever it is, if the athlete, if the client is responding, they're just not motivated.
They're not going to make change.
They're not going to be one of these people that makes it.
And that's not necessarily the case.
It's that they're not responding to your style.
100%.
I love that.
Yeah.
Yeah, I I love just taking responsibility and and we can do it in all sorts of ways.
Like I try to do this in my workshops.
Like it's so easy to go in and you're like working with students or a group and maybe it doesn't go well.
It's easy to put all the blame on them.
It's like, ah, they just didn't.
We're in a good place versus, huh?
How did I miss like how did I not capture their attention?
How come I didn't build that engagement?
And so I like it.
And and look, maybe sometimes it is them or maybe sometimes the client isn't motivated like that can happen.
But I love like pausing and just saying OK, like what's an experiment I can run or what is something I can tweak to try to turn this in a better direction.
I love it.
I hadn't thought about that angle, but it's it's really good.
Thank you so very much for tuning into the show this week.
Two quick things before we go.
The first.
If you want even more from this episode, I do recommend you check out the full listener guide, where we break down all the big ideas.
We ask reflection questions.
We give you steps to put these ideas into action.
The link is in the show notes.
And the second thing while you're there, check out the chase club.
It's our premium membership, where we include bonus content, ad free episodes and the brand new chase tracker app.
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