Lauren Zonfrillo - Grief: The Shittest Greatest Gift | The Imperfects

Hi, it's Ryan here.

Before we start today's episode, just want to remind you that the three of us, me, Hugh and Josh, are going on to a live stage tour again.

It's called Together Again, and it's a brand new show.

If you came to see the last one, this is all completely new and different.

We are so, so excited, and we would love to see you there.

If you want to get tickets, just go to livenation .com .au and we'll be playing shows in so many, if not all, of the major cities near you.

So we will see you there.

My name's George and I edit The Imperfects.

I grew up on Ngunnawal Country, studied on Bundjalung Country, and am now living and working on Wurundjeri Country.

On behalf of The Imperfects, we acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and we extend our respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.

The rich storytelling history of the world's oldest living culture is what we proudly pay homage to when we share stories on The Imperfects.

For Isla's birthday, she blew out a candle and she said to me, I wish that papa would come back so you don't have to cry anymore.

Al feels like I give all the wishes in my heart that papa would come back.

And it's a beautiful thought and I let them have it because they're children.

And I go that is beautiful, I wish for that too, but you know papa can never ever come home.

Because forever is so impossible for a child to get their head around.

We're all imperfect and on this podcast I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.

I'm Hugh van Kaylenberg from the Resilience Project.

And I'm Ryan Shelton from my mum.

And I'm Josh from Hugh's mum.

And this is the imperfects.

Well today's episode is definitely in a category of – I thought we have categories, but we've got a category that was special.

it would very much be in that draw.

Yeah. Hopefully there aren't too many episodes in the unspecial, not very special category.

No, just be like, some might be, you know, fun and frivolity.

Oh, gotcha. Some might be under the, you know, like Steve Curry was joyous Yes.

And this is special.

Absolutely. That's very, very good point.

We don't have any unspecial episodes.

No, we don't, this be very clear.

We don't. So we have a chat today with Lauren Zonfrillo, who is a widow to Jox Zamprillo from MasterChef.

I mean, in her own right has achieved so much, incredible incredible person.

You might have seen her on Gruun Transfer for those who are fans of Gruun.

Her company, Pulse Collective has won many awards for marketing and PR.

And she's won awards herself, I think.

Yes, yeah. I mean, you say it in the intro but it's like Young Business Woman of the Year.

Yeah, yeah, she's amazing.

As soon as she walks into the studio, it had that feel like this is a really amazing person.

I thought you were gonna say, this is the young businesswoman of the year.

You can just tell. She just has that young businesswoman of the year energy.

No, I just I was just looking at the special draw the second she walked in, I know where this episode's gonna go.

I know exactly where this will go.

Yeah, I don't even know where these draws are, you should tell me where these draws are.

I think you described her energy as Dr. Emma Jacent.

It absolutely is. Charisma and grace.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

I don't know why I felt like I need to pause after saying that.

Hold for a few pause.

You summed her up. Charisma and grace.

Hmm? Yeah. What do you reckon?

How does that land with you?

It could be a name for a cafe as well.

Not one that you'd go to.

It'd be a good name for a cafe that you walk past all the time.

I hope there're some of my cookers and Grace.

I hope not. Then we'd have to edit this out.

We certainly felt very grateful that she would spend the time with us because we have had people asking us for a long time could we do an episode on grief and which we've really wanted to do we've just sort of wanted to do it really well.

And we do feel like this conversation is, I feel like it's a great way for us to approach this topic.

It was a really vulnerable conversation and she did it so beautifully.

And it is a little bit, unlike other episodes we've done where we interview the guest and then we chat about what we've learned from them.

Because we've decided the best thing to do here is to, of the back of this episode, in the next few weeks, we'll have an episode from Dr. M, and she'll be talking about grief and the way we work through it, because that essentially is what this conversation is, the ways that Lauren has worked her way through a grief and continues to work her way through grief.

I mean, so many people have experiences, everyone will experience this huge thing in your life grief, and we thought that was the best way to do it, to have him following up in the next couple of weeks.

I think it's also worth mentioning that But when talking to Lauren, we didn't go into the details of how Jock passed away.

It didn't feel appropriate to do so in that conversation.

But Lauren does talk to this in her new book.

Jock was such a big figure for many people who loved him dearly through knowing him, or just watching him on TV, I think he was so charismatic and so magnetic that a lot of people would have felt like they knew him.

And the book is called, Till Death to us Part.

It's incredibly powerful for anyone grieving, and it's also a wonderful way for those who love Jock on TV, to connect.

We are so lucky today to be joined by, in fact, before I even say the name, no, I will say the name, sorry, Lauren Zonfillo.

You have a presence about you that is just, yeah, I was going to say aura, but I thought Gen Z have stolen that word off us, but I'd like to take it back.

We can share it. We can both have aura.

Yeah, I think we use it in a more authentic way, they say for everything.

Wow, so he's taken some big swings earlier!

He's going for Gen Z!

No but in the most your aura and presence, it's a lovely...

I have a lovely presence about you.

Thank you Hugh, I appreciate that.

Yeah, I feel very very lucky to have you here.

I 100 % agree. You hear him?

Yeah, 100 % agree. It's so calming.

Yep, I'd say Dr Emily adjacent.

Oh, yeah. Oh, what a compliment.

I totally agree. Goodness me.

Yeah, not to compare, but - You did.

Since we're talking about auras, sorry, Gen Z.

Well, for those of you who don't know the back story, I might just do a quick bio, if that's okay, and then we'll jump in.

In April 2023, Lauren's and Ferulo's world changed in a most heartbreaking way, setting up her family's new life in Rome, while her partner, Jacques, finished up his Master Chef press junket in Melbourne, Lauren received the devastating phone call that would alter her future forever.

In an instant everything changed.

Lauren began her journey as a mother, public figure and human being dealing with cataclysmic grief.

Before she was Lauren's own fellow, Lauren had already established herself as an extremely accomplished businesswoman.

In 2003 Lauren founded the marketing and communication firm Pulse Collective and won the NSW Telstra Young Businesswoman of the Year award in 2000.

Lauren met Jock in 2014.

Together they have two children, Alfie and Isla.

Beyond their deep love for each other, Lauren played a pivotal role in Jock's career serving as board director for the Orana Foundation, CEO of the Orana Group and Jock's personal manager.

Lauren's work and presence have deeply inspired many.

She's a passionate and dedicated advocate for connection, storytelling and family.

With her background in media and communications, Lauren has used her platform to shed light on the often unseen moments behind the scenes of public life, sharing honesty and vulnerability, what it means to navigate love, loss, parenting identity in today's world.

Lauren's strength, warmth and authenticity shine through in everything she does and we are so grateful to have us with us here today.

My first question, the older I get and the more I go through I feel like I feel a lot more things in my heart.

How's your heart feel today right now?

Just hearing you say that, it was like, wow, no one said anything about me in so long.

I just completely forgot I had a career, really.

I just feel like all I've done for the last nearly two years is create Jock's legacy, parent our children, for parts of it hide away, um, and just try and rebuild.

So, yeah, that was, that kind of got me in the throat when you were saying all that, cause I was like, oh yeah, that's right.

There was that other part of me and I am trying to rebuild that.

Um, as a solo parent now I have a lot of responsibility for my children's future.

And that means I need to have a career and work as well as find meaning for them in what has just been a cataclysmic event for them.

Yeah, it's a, that was heartwarming actually.

I forgot parts of myself.

What, why did, why did you choose marketing?

What is it? I find marketing very, very fascinating.

Because it's really, from what, my limited knowledge of it, it seems very much like, about understanding people.

Yeah well I fell into it.

So, um, I was at university doing a B .O.

communications thinking I'd be a journalist, cause I did like writing, and I thought that's where I'd go.

Then I started working at McDonald's at head office, just part time they needed some help with some admin, and then all of a sudden I had a job.

So I was sort of— I went into the marketing department, did uni at night and just started being an adult, Probably a little bit earlier than I should have. How old was that?

I was 19 when I got my full time job there.

Yeah. And then I learned how to market on the job.

I learned that marketing is a really untrusted profession.

And so with that, I thought, Oh, maybe I'll just do a bit more work with meaning.

And then I just kept going at it.

So I think that I wasn't ever a very good people person.

I read people really well.

I read situations. I could unpack stuff but I was never a great leader of people, was never great at friendships or relationships but in the make -believe world of business I was very good at that.

that's really I mean I've only just met you but that's very surprising to hear.

I think I'm better now, I'm a bit more you know I've lived a bit more now.

I understand what happiness feels like and is and I know what the opposite of it is now.

I think my emotional repertoire has changed and so I'm maybe a bit more caring and thoughtful.

And I realise that really bad shit can happen.

You know, I think that's pretty enlightening and it brings you back down to, for me, probably being the best version of myself that I've been so far.

Really? What makes you the best version of you?

I think that, um, grief, and for me, grief is a catch -all.

So really losing Jock was very traumatic.

It was so unexpected and it was just so big.

It was so far away from him.

Our babies were two and a half and five and it was just so public.

It was just so international.

So I think that grief is something that came a bit further down the line.

So there's this chaos of the immediacy of it.

So for months So I had no idea what was up or down, but then in the future grief does enter and in with grief comes a very narrow passage that you can only go one way.

Like you imagine physically, imagine that metaphor and go, I'm going through this tiny passage and my shoulders are right to the edge.

You have nowhere else you can go forward. It just depends on how fast you can get out of there.

And I just wanted to get the fuck out of there.

I could not handle it.

It was so unbearable.

So, the speed at which I tried to get away from the impact zone of losing Jock was important to me, numbers became important.

I wanted to get to one month, and then I negotiated in myself for that is actually four weeks.

And because one month I thought something would happen, nothing happened.

One year, nothing happened, actually got worse at one year.

So I think that I was just doing anything to get away from the pain of it.

You just...in grief, I was just looking for a moment of stillness or just some reprieve from the hurt.

It just hurts all the time.

And it hurts when I would see our kids do something cute and it's tiny, you know, like Alfie might just twirl Ila's hair and I'm like, oh, there's no one to share that with.

No one cares. You don't take a photo of that and send it to a friend.

And that's apparent loving, caring moment, when we created these two beautiful people that love each other.

So I think that I'm learning to stand on my own two feet.

Jock and I are very enmeshed, in every way.

So I had to really rebuild because I was very much a part of Jock and then I didn't have him anymore.

So I had a lot of work to do to kind of get back to the baseline, to then rebuild myself as a person.

I think it might be helpful for the people who are sort of catching up as we go just to hear from your side of things what actually happened.

Because, I mean, I feel like you've lived everyone's worst nightmare, really.

Yeah, well, the kids and I were in Rome, so we'd relocated there, and we figured, why not?

Which is pretty much our decision -making matrix was always, why not?

Let's just do it, why not?

We always agreed that if we were happy, then our children would be happy, their flow down effect into our family and our life, our extended life was always going to be positive.

So what did we want?

Jock would just be able to travel back for MasterChef, we would not be away from each other for more than maybe three or four weeks.

We'd come here while he was filming, he'd come back at Christmas and we thought we'd nailed it.

So I was the forward party when I went over to Rome, Jock was just wrapping up MasterChef and doing the promotional stuff.

And... Sorry you flew over there with two kids by yourself.

Yeah. Yeah I did. That probably deserves a round of applause.

And I was just so used to having a husband that was so hands -on with the kids.

Like, that was quite overwhelming for me.

I've never done that before.

And now I'm just like anything like there's nothing I can't do with my two kids now.

Like we just got this agreement that like we do hard stuff and we do it together and we're all good at it now.

We were over there and Jock was over here.

So it was a weekend.

So the kids slept in and they woke up and there was a present from Jock.

So he sent them something and they just couldn't believe that male could come to Rome.

And then they wake up and they opened the box and it was from Jock.

And he'd sent them like two stuffed animals each which are now piggy and foxy and he'd sprayed the aftershave on the stomach. And so they opened the box, like, Oh my God Papa's in the box.

And then it wasn't, it was obviously the toys.

I'm surprised. But then he also gave them like, these playing cards.

One is called Mindful Kids, which is teaching them to have confidence and mindfulness.

And another one was called Emotions and it was animals showing different emotions.

And then it talked about the light and shade of each emotion and a book each one was about, you know, a kids' book on empathy and one was a kid's book on confidence.

So a lot has happened in my whole life with Jock, which just stuff happens.

And I go, gosh, that makes so much sense now.

But this little kind of gift pack from Jock came and then we called Jock and we FaceTimed him and we're having a great day.

Jock had just been out with Andy from MasterChef for his birthday.

So Jock had had a great day.

It was mid -afternoon.

He was back in the hotel and he was just talking to the kids while I was trying to bust out breakfast, which is not my lane.

You know, Alfie wanted specifically want a pancetta, not bacon.

Ila wanted tomatoes with balsamic and pepper, and so I'm busting out all these different breakfasts, and Isla wanted freshly squeezed juice.

Alfie wanted frothed milk.

So I'm running around.

Jock's finding this so funny because that's his job and I just sort of, I'm in charge of music or something.

So I'm busting all the breakfasts out and the kids having great time with Jock and playing with their cards and life was just normal.

Um, so we did that for quite a few hours and then, then it was late his time, like it was probably the early hours in the morning so I said, ciao and just, we got on with our day.

And I guess there's a period of time when I don't know what it was where life was normal for us.

Like we just got on with life but actually it probably wasn't normal.

You know, the kids had probably lost their dad.

I'd probably lost Jock and we just didn't know.

I think spirituality has been a really interesting lane for me and I'm not spiritual, I'm not religious.

I'm not generally spiritual now, I'm only spiritual when it comes to Jock.

And later that afternoon our time, Alfie said, oh, can we watch The Lion King?

I'm like, yeah, sure.

I was sick anyway, so we're just gonna chill out at home that day.

So watching The Lion King and I'm giving the kids a cuddle, and there's this scene where Mufasa, the dad dies in a stampede and Alfie couldn't watch it.

He like put his face into my chest. He's like, oh, it makes me so sad that someone could not have a Papa.

And when I look back at the timing of that, I'm like, could that have been the first sign, is that the first message from Jock that Alfie would say something like that?

Because Alfie and Jock were very, very close.

And then we just went to bed.

And then when we woke up, we FaceTimed Jock and he didn't answer.

And I just knew something had shifted, like something in my world wasn't the same.

and I just he could have just been having a shower or on another call.

He could have been doing so many things.

Had you ever had that feeling before?

No. Right. Not at all.

So I just read a list of what would I urgently need to pack if we needed to fly quickly back to Australia.

So your mind went there?

Yeah, it was dramatic.

He missed one call.

Very dramatic for my mind to go there.

But now when I think back or I'm kind of reflecting on spirituality, I think that was the first time Jock was talking to me.

It's like he was saying to me, Loz, something is wrong.

Don't just give up, figure it out.

And so, I did. I was like, well, I'll call you a couple more times.

I called the hotel.

They thought I was a crazed Jock's on Frillo fan, so they wouldn't put me through to his room.

But I was like, I am his wife.

I made the reservation.

I've got the paperwork, it's on my credit card. I've got I've got marriage certificates.

Tell me what you need to put me through to his room." And he said, I'm just not going to do that.

And I was like, oh, okay, I'm on the other side of the world with two young children.

I'm really panicked.

If you could just knock on his door or something.

And he said, I'm just not doing that for you.

I said, okay. So I kind of, I sat on that for a little bit and I thought, okay, I'm not getting anywhere here.

I'm going to have to escalate this.

And so I called the local police and just said, look, I'm just a bit concerned.

do you mind just doing a welfare check for me?" So they called the hotel also weren't put through.

And so they said - And the police weren't put through?

No, no, I don't know why.

And so the police said, we'll go around.

And so they, probably from that conversation - Can I just jump in, what was your like emotional state at this point?

Were you like worried?

Like what were you - Yeah, I think, um, I think the numbness of shock had kind of started to settle.

Like I wasn't crying or anything.

I was just going, oh, this doesn't feel like I'm even awake.

Like I, it's interesting because I vividly remember that last conversation with Jock, like over hours vividly remember that.

And it's nearly like that was the last time my brain was solid.

Like since Jock died, I have like, I've just got this grief -nesia where my brain doesn't operate at the same speed.

I hear words and I've really got to think about what that word means, or I completely forget someone's name or even cities in the world, like it just goes and that conversation is so vivid.

And it's not because it was anything special.

I mean, it was our last conversation.

I do love, I've got all Jock's journals, he journaled a lot and I've got, he journaled that night after we spoke.

So it's so beautiful to read the journal because he was just so happy for us that, like the local coffee shop was now giving me one year of own macchiatos because we were classed as locals, not tourists.

And the, you know, the chick that owned the natural wine store was like ciao Lauren across the street that day and I was like, proud but a bit ashamed that she already knew my name.

And then but then he wrote in there he was just, he felt really guilty that he wasn't helping me with the kids, he really missed putting the kids to bed every night and singing to them and but he was super excited about like us curating these little Scottish Italian Aussie kids that were going to have these really big lives and so it's nearly like I knew that that's what he thought but it was just so beautiful to read those words and he, he did write in there which has been like nearly a motivating sentence for me And he said, you know, Lauren wasn't quite herself today.

I think it's kind of a lot of hard work for her to do all this by herself, but she's so capable.

And that's why I'm okay with it.

Cause she's so capable.

And when I get there, I make it up to her.

And so, you know, reading those words later, it's like, there's this time capsule of our last day of communication, which, you know, it's nothing, but it's so special to me.

it's something that the kids have of, you know, what that period looked like.

But just a great insight into where he was at and that he was just so excited about this life we had planned and we didn't know how long we were there for, we didn't know if it'll work.

We didn't speak Italian.

So that was a bit of a well Jock spoke some Italian, mainly food words.

Yeah, so the police weren't allowed in.

So they went to the hotel.

So they called me and said, look, we can't get through to his room, but we will go there now.

And I said, Thank you.

And then they called me a few hours later and said, I can't remember the exact words, but it was something along the lines of, we entered your husband's hotel room and we found a deceased male.

And I just fell down.

I just fell on the ground and I just said, can you call me back?

Can you just give me a few minutes and call me back?

And I just remember sitting there on the carpet going, could it be someone else?

Like what does that even mean?

And then he called me back and he said, just, you're probably not gonna remember a lot of this so just get a pen and paper and let's write some things down.

So in that few -hour window between them saying we'll go over there now for you, he was already taken away.

So he was already with the coroner.

So they moved pretty fast and I have a lot of respect for the Victorian police.

They were very sensitive and communicated very well.

They actioned something that, you know, probably isn't a priority.

I can't get through to my husband isn't a big deal and they treated it like it was and I really appreciated that.

But then things just move really fast. So where were the kids when you were taking this call?

They're asleep. OK.

Thank God. And so I had this window of time where I thought, I need to now action.

I have to book flights.

And once I booked flights I can make calls.

And I did it in that order.

So I knew when we had to leave by and then I started making some calls.

So I call Jock's Ava first. And that… And how old was Ava at the time?

She was 22. Maybe. Yeah, I just turned 22 and saying the words was part of the beginning to accept that something had gone wrong, not accept it.

I still assumed Jock will rock up.

Like I see him often.

I see him in concentrated periods of time.

I saw him twice last week just in people.

And then you see… go, oh, that's not him.

But was saying the words to Ava, was that the first time you'd said it out loud?

Yeah. What was that like?

I think telling any child that one of their parents or both their parents has died is it's just everyone loses.

There's no just takes a lot of courage to do it and there's not a lot of words to use.

And with Ava she was super close to Jock as well, like they were really, really close, They'd been through so much together.

They, you know, they just found their rhythm, and Ava's mum and Jock separated when Ava was young, maybe a year, 18 months old.

And so he had a close bond with her from a very early age where he would have her.

So they found this really beautiful relationship through that.

And so she became, over time, very quickly actually became my grief partner because it was like, it's not something that my best friends could have done, my sister even, not because they didn't want to, just because Ava and I had a shared understanding of the man that Jock was, the one he really wanted to be.

And we had the greatest understanding of what we had lost, which anyone that had Jock in their world, like in a, in a friendship or family space knew what they'd lost. But we truly knew what we had lost. And so in that I found a grief partner which isn't fair.

I reflect on that now going, I needed to help her not evenly help each other.

I should have been more of her mum and less of her grief partner.

But look, I don't think you can get anything wrong in grief.

I wasn't intentionally doing the wrong thing.

I'd done things that I wish I had done differently, but I did them with the right intention and I did everything with love and kindness and as much calmness as I could.

When you, I mean, especially like you're calling Ava that soon after finding out, I can't imagine there would have been any thought into, okay like what's the best way to say this?

It's just like, but with your other two kids, was there any, I don't know, I don't even know if there needs to be, But I'm only asking this because people will be listening to this and they'll go through a similar situation and be faced with the same situation having to tell kids Did you think about how you would tell them?

Yeah, really? I really worried about it So with Ava I didn't have time.

I just called her With our little ones, I didn't tell them until we got back to Melbourne.

So maybe 36 hours later Gosh.

In that time I had time to talk to my therapist and what we decided was the best approach was to not use made up concepts like passed away or heaven, it has no meaning to young children and to be very clear and concise and make it more like a conversation versus a statement.

So, you know, in my instance, the kids woke up.

We were in a hotel room.

So, family and best friends and stuff were there and I said, if everyone could just sort of be normal and make noise and you know I don't want silence or anything just try be normal.

I got the little ones into my bedroom and just got them up on the bed with me and said, I've got some really sad news.

Papa has died and he's not coming back.

That's all I said. And then I left it open for them to take that in.

I mean, we're talking about a two and a half and a five year old, they were feeding off my energy and obviously my response to that.

They were hysterical but no noise has really come out kind of level.

He had a lot of questions.

He wanted to know where Jock was right now.

He wanted to know when did it happen?

He wanted to know am I sure?

He went into sort of a little bit of bargaining.

Will I ever be able to see him again?

I said no because Papa's dead so he can never come back.

I'm not went into questions about himself.

So can we still be best friends?

Who's going to do Lego with me?

Do you think he's cold?

He asked, can I still go into Papa's kitchen?

Can I still cook? And I was like, wow, this is just not where I expected this conversation to go.

Eila was more about statements.

I mean, she just started talking.

You know, she was really maybe three months into talking.

And so she was making statements, like, um, Papa gets really cold, to make sure he's not cold have you thought about putting his dressing gown on him or his slippers, like maybe if papa wasn't cold.

And I was like yep, look when you're dead you don't have any feelings like that anymore.

But I know papa's not cold.

It's okay, he's in his pajamas and he's got a blanket.

She's like what blanket?

Has he got his Scottish blanket?

Which is one we bought in Scotland and we got the really big one so the whole family fit under it.

I'm like he doesn't have the Scottish blanket right now.

She said, well, he needs that.

And I said, I just mean, we got on a plane in Rome with plastic bags.

Like we fled that place and came back here.

I'm like, it'll come home eventually, darling.

Um, and then she got a bit angry at me.

She can't have blamed me.

And she's done that a couple of times.

And I've learned not to let it upset me anymore because it's not her blaming me.

But she said to me, well, you look after our families.

So why didn't you look after Papa?

Why didn't you give him medicine?

Why didn't you know he had a temperature.

Why aren't you with him now?

Why are you here? Shouldn't you be with him there?

And this... Charles And that was that, that happened the first time when you told her...

Georgie Yeah, that was the first...

that was their responses, that was their initial reaction to the news I told them.

And then I have to stay true to the permanency of it because the kids...

the way they bargain and negotiate.

For Isla's birthday she blew out her candle and then she said to me, I wish that Papa would come back so you don't have to cry anymore.

It feels like I gave all the wishes in my heart that Papa would come back.

And it's a beautiful thought and I let them have it because they're children and I go, that is beautiful, I wish for that too but you know Papa can never ever come home.

Because forever is so impossible for a child to get their head around.

So yeah, I think that I now realise, and I'm very early in the journey, I mean, we're a couple of weeks away from being two years.

I'm not trying to raise happy children, I am trying to raise emotionally capable children who are learning emotions way before they're meant to, sometimes decades before they're meant to.

and I'm trying to hold them through that and let them try and navigate themselves and then I sort of help them a bit.

Children aren't meant to understand grief or fear or loss of safety or anger.

Yeah, maybe anger but you know a lot of these emotions, they're just their little hearts and minds aren't meant to be capable of and they are capable of them.

And so I've just got these beautiful little children that aren't broken by this And that's very encouraging for me to think that if the world can't break them then it can't break me either.

There were so many overwhelming parts of trying to grieve and have young children that I thought this is going to break me.

I can't do this. I can't be a mum.

I'm hardly being a mum.

I'm hardly present in any sense.

And what I realized was that they completely saved me.

That having them has been the only thing that got me, like dragged me forward because they just represent such joy and innocence.

And I would love to feel joy too.

How do I feel joy? Well being childish feels, makes me feel joy.

And so as much as I was thinking, maybe this is just too much for me, maybe I can't do this, I realise now that it's the only thing that got me through.

I'm amazed by the fact that you took time before you told them because you wanted to get it right, which it sounds like you absolutely did.

Do you have a memory of the flight on the way back?

Were you trying to hold everything together in front of them so you didn't give any clues away?

And how hard was that?

they knew something was awfully wrong, and I just cried the whole time.

But you would never have tried to piece it together.

Alfie was just sort of holding my hand a lot.

And my sister met me in Singapore.

So she was at the gate, and the crew helped me off with the kids in the bags, and, you know, Isla was still in a pram and got me off.

And when I saw my sister, I was just like, I can just let go now.

You know, I've got someone who loves me and loves my children.

I think that my, I have a very close relationship with my brother and my sister.

And they really stepped into that job.

My sister was there in the exact moment I needed her, my kids needed her.

Turning up into the airport in Singapore.

I really had no idea what was happening, I just thought we were going home and this would, you know, this was terrible, and there'd be a meet, like a bit of media for a day or two, and then that would be it.

Um, but we're in the lounge and Jock's face was everywhere on the TV screens.

I'm like, shit. Why is this, why is this on CNN?

Like why is this international news?

I didn't understand.

And so I had to try and hide the kids from it.

There was a moment where I got Isla facing me and then Alfie on my lap so I could hold them in place and keep their faces away from the TV screen because they would have been like, oh, papa and master chef.

And, you know, it was just not something I could do in that space.

And so I'd literally had to block my kids from seeing that.

And then we got on the plane and my sister said, Oh, just look after the kids, just try and have a rest. And so I did it into Sydney.

And then I was like, holy shit.

I had no idea what was in front of us.

And I had no idea what to do.

We were really well looked after.

We kind of had a, I guess, a very affluent version of mourning, I would say, where Network Ten safely got us to a place where we could have privacy.

We had security 24 seven for weeks and weeks because we needed it.

Kids didn't leave the house or the hotel for months.

No version of mourning is ever good.

But the affluent version was that there were a lot of people that would help us.

Did you feel during that a strange combination of, because you had a lot of support, but did you also feel very alone?

Yes. And I think that, this sort of daytime grief, which is where people can support you and help you and then there's nighttime grief.

And if someone is there looking, like with you at night, it just delays the onset.

So nighttime grief is the loneliest place.

It is awful, it's actually sickening and it happens every day.

And I was just like, when is this going to get any better?

And so I started putting some rules in place around nighttime grief.

So I could only look at photos and videos for ten minutes.

The next phase was no videos, so I couldn't hear Jock's voice.

And the next phase was if I had anything to drink, I wasn't allowed to look at anything, and so I started sort of doing little rules or negotiations with myself to try and make night -time grief not so severe.

Because I realized very quickly my body was so unhealthy, you know, I was constantly thirsty.

my hair was just breaking, my skin was dry, my nails, I was getting chest pains, my body just needed to rest. And I just didn't need to rest. There's no difference for me, there was no need to get into bed at night.

I didn't need to do it.

I was just, the first few nights we got back to Melbourne, I was just wandering around in the middle of the night going, I've got nothing, there's nothing about me that can shut down.

And so I knew that I had to shut down, I had to find a way.

I went to my GP, she's amazing.

Um, and so medication was a lane that we looked at.

There was Valium that for daytime use just to calm me a bit beta blockers for my panic attacks, it was sleeping tablets.

And she said, but none of these you can have if you're drinking.

I was like, Hmm, well, which one's better?

Like, and I had to sort of go, which one's better?

And for about six months wine was better.

Negronis and whiskey and that was much better.

And so I didn't take any of the medication over that period.

I decided drinking was better.

But then I realized that obviously nothing good comes from that, but I had to figure that out myself.

And that just makes you weaker.

What made me weaker and sadder and just felt more incapable of doing anything really.

And so then I just started going, the most important thing to me was sleep.

And sleep at night like a normal person.

Don't sleep in the afternoons when you're tired, don't nap, sleep at night.

And then getting my sleep back on track was the first thing that I did and I accomplished.

And then I went, cool, nighttime grief now is not really there.

And then I felt empowered to go, okay, I think I'm on top of this now.

I think I can get through this first wave of grief and that first wave is big.

It's like tsunami levels and you can't avoid it.

You can't walk around it.

You just got to let it take over everything.

And it did. And then you get a breath and you go, okay, there's going to be another wave. That's totally fine.

But thank God that one's over.

And we all got through it.

I'm really proud of us.

And I think Jock would be really proud of the kids too.

When you are going through that process of restricting the amount of photos and videos you can look at, Was there a sense of guilt of like looking at it less?

Yeah, yeah there was.

I apologize to Jock a lot where I'm like, I'm so sorry darling, but I just can't do it.

And on the one -year anniversary, I set up the dining table with like photos of Jock and the kids and some of his like stag candle holders and some thistles and all this stuff.

And, um, I moved the pictures off the table and I like completely lost her shit and said, give me the pictures of my papa back.

He's my papa. Where are my pictures?

Put them back. And I'm like, no, they just are on the shelf.

They're back in their forever place.

But I just moved them off the table.

Because the pictures were making them sad, it was also confusing them.

So by having the pictures of Jock on the dining table, table, they started setting the table at night for four.

So they started setting the place for Jock.

Then they'd argue about who got to sit next to Papa.

And then I wouldn't put a plate down and they'd get angry at me for not including Papa.

And they went into this imaginary world of him still being here, but just not, you know, maybe being at work and just not being at the dinner table.

So it actually spiraled.

And that's one of the things when I say I wish I could have done some stuff differently.

I didn't see, I didn't see the I didn't see how you give and then I have to take back.

I don't know how you could.

I can't imagine how you didn't think so much of the time.

I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.

Oh, no I still think that, but that's just parenting.

I honestly don't know what I'm doing.

Yeah but it feels like the stakes for you are slightly higher in a way.

I've heard people talk about being in this position before but I've never actually thought about the day to day battles or challenges and just hearing that, that would just break me.

I feel like that just that scenario just would be too much. Yeah.

There's a lot which you just, I've just been going, this is too much. And I just, I can then I go into getting angry at Jock going, for fuck's sake, why is this happening?

You just left me here to deal with this?

Like you're my person.

Like we were always in everything together.

I just like I've, in my head it's like I'm doing a deal with the devil sometimes going, just give me five seconds with Jock.

I just need to have a chat.

I need to ask him a question.

Just need an embrace.

I just need to look at him.

Something to give me to energize me again so I can keep doing what feels like an unbearable impossible task which is just parenting.

And it's it it's nearly like just some of my emotions were turned off like love and that just kind of got turned off.

But then I actually know it was just that I was I think that grief for me does fade over time and that's grief literature there's a lot of talk about it not ever fading it being like an extra limb that you carry around but for me I think grief fades and memories fade but love grows and I feel that lot.

I love Jock more now than I've ever loved him and I talk like in my mind he's my husband and he's present every day because we talk about Jock.

I feel his presence and I know he connects with the children spiritually like I saw that really early on.

Carl Jung talked about these, sort of, spiritual wells or these holes and children walk towards them going, oh, they look fun, oh wee, and they jump straight in going, what are we going to discover?

Adults go whoa, a hole, danger, and we take a wide walk around it and we just don't open our mind to it.

So I feel the kids' spirituality and their connection with Jock started straight away.

You know, in the first few nights, I went into their bedroom and Alfie's like, well, Papa's just up there.

I was so angry I thought someone's talked about heaven, and I told them not to talk about heaven because I don't even know the answer to any questions around heaven.

And I was like, someone's head's gonna roll.

And then Alfie's like, no, Papa's just up there at the lights.

I was like, oh, is he?

He's like, he's just there.

I was like, oh, hi, Papa.

And I was like, I just want to nurture this and at the time I wasn't spiritual yet, So I was like, I'll just nurture this coping mechanism that the kids are using.

A few nights later, you know, Alfie's like looking at him through binoculars going, he's getting further away.

But if I use binoculars, I can still see him.

I'm like, wow, Alfie, that's cool.

Don't lose your binoculars.

And then like, nights later, he's like going, do you want to put some kisses through the tunnel.

So Papa told me make a tunnel and I can just put kisses through there.

And it doesn't matter how far away he is, he'll always get all the way to him.

I'm like, mate, I'll put some kisses in the kiss tunnel and so like I'm just playing along with them and then actually I'm like no they were just Jock was still around.

I truly believe his presence, I do believe that Jock talks to the kids and I had this conversation with Alfie where he said to me, he didn't know I had seen gone to see Jock at the coroner and that I'd seen Jock a couple of times after that.

I've never seen a dead body before so that was, I didn't know how I would react and so I didn't want to take the kids to do that stage.

It didn't really cross my mind.

I just figured that wasn't a thing that they needed to do.

But strangely, I needed to do it and it gave me a level of comfort that's very hard to explain.

But Alfie said to me months later, he said mama why didn't you take me to say goodbye to papa?

And I said you did say goodbye to papa.

He dropped us to the airport you said goodbye to papa.

He goes no no no, after he died he said just the first time because he was still in there mama, did you know that?

He was still in there, but the other times it wasn't there anymore.

And that's exactly what I had thought too, going when I saw Jock the first time it was Jock was there, it was like he was kind of waiting and he was there and the other times I saw Jock I'm like this is just a shell now he's just not present anymore and Alfie knew that and he didn't even know I'd seen Jock.

He didn't know that was a thing.

But somehow he knows these things and the kids say stuff to me like that and I go wow it's like it's so it's proof to me that it's real.

I mean um that that experience of, because I've also never seen a dead body And I'm curious to know how it was for you, that experience of seeing Jock, after he died.

It made it slightly more real.

I had no expectation, but I was also absolutely numb to it.

When I saw him, it was just like, this is my goodbye.

So I could touch him and be close to him.

he was in his pajamas still and the man at the coroner, I don't know I can't remember his name but he was extraordinary.

Like, that's a really special job to do.

There's people that I've crossed paths with over this journey that I'm like, thank goodness that you do this job and you are perfect for it.

But he said to me, Jock is just behind this door.

So when you walk in, you'll see his feet and as you turn the corner you'll see his face.

He's behind a glass door, but I can retract that if you'd like, and you can touch him but he's gonna be cold so don't be alarmed.

But he said, you take your time.

I'm in no rush. I'm just going to wait over here.

So I went in with Ava to kind of acclimatise her as much as I could to the room and then left and gave her her time.

time. And then when she was done, I went in.

And it was... I think I was just in there talking to Jock going, what the fuck is happening?

Like what the fuck is this?

Like this is just a terrible joke.

This is fucked up. I was so angry about it and wasn't angry at him.

I was just going what the fuck is going on?

Like, it was just outrage at how crazy this concept was and Jock was just there.

And it was completely him like I could smell his aftershave and I could smell the curly stuff he has in his hair.

And he was just sleeping and I was just like, open your eyes.

Just please just open your eyes just a little bit.

And so I went and I went over to him and I touched him, but I was really scared to touch him.

And so I started with his hair and I was like, Oh, I love his hair.

And then I able to touch his face and I was able to sort of be really close to him and get and kiss him and say goodbye.

And I was I was talking to him just going like, I've got this.

I know it doesn't seem like it right now but I've got this and the kids are going to be good.

They're going to be fine and I'll figure it out.

And then I was crying on Jock and then I was just saying to him please just open your eyes, doc just, just for a second, I just need something from you." And then a tear went down his face, but it was actually my tear that had fallen in and it fell down at that moment.

And I was like, Oh God, I just want you to be alive.

I just want you back so badly.

And it's just incomprehensible and it's so unfair.

And I definitely, I left that room going like, I had a moment with Jock and I got to do things like run my fingers through his hair and kiss him like I would every day, like it's normal but it was the most abnormal thing ever.

And then from there it was um I saw him a couple more times and then it was time for him to be buried and I was actually relieved because that was a long time probably.

I think it was 11 or 12 days until I just had no idea how hard it to organise Jock's funeral and the moving parts and the privacy and the scale of it and the scope of it.

I didn't know what to do with Jock and I never talked about death or do you wanna get cremated or buried or where does this all go?

I never even talked about the kids schooling.

We hadn't had these conversations yet.

So I decided I know that Jock would have said, don't make a fuss, just cremate me and chuck me into a lock in the Scottish Highlands and just be done with it.

but actually the kids and I needed a place.

And I think that the ritual of the burial was a really important part of them processing what had happened, and them now having jock, a place for jock that they can visit.

So they knew that Papa was going to be in a box and he was going into the ground and they were going to cover him with dirt and pull grass on him.

And so they knew what was about to happen and then they saw the ritual and now we go back and visit Papa.

And strangely it's a really nice cemetery.

I know that sounds really strange, people out there with picnic blankets, sitting reading books next to whoever.

We go out there for Jock's birthday, Father's Day, have a picnic breakfast, sit under an umbrella, like literally spend time with Jock Jock.

And it makes sense to the kids that he's there.

They know where his head is where his feet are and you know Alfie always lies on Jock's stomach that's where he used to always lie so we get into his little position on top of Jock's heart.

They give his head kisses before they leave and you know it makes sense to them.

They can visualize that that's a place where Jock is resting.

I just thank you so much for taking us through that experience.

That is such a personal experience in terms of going to see Jock after he died.

I just thank you very much. It's really powerful.

And I think the thing that I keep thinking about, I don't know if this is - I mean we've never met, but you've run your own business.

You've run multiple businesses.

And I know something that I've always struggled with and I think many people probably struggle with, is like want to control things, and want to be able to dictate how things happen and when things happen.

And you know, that's a comfort for so many people, it definitely is for me.

And something like this happening is like the ultimate loss of control.

Yeah, you're spot on.

How does that resonate with you?

Yeah. You're right there.

That's a word I write about, journal about a lot.

And it was a realisation that nothing's under my control.

When I think back to what actually has been the things that worked for me because I did everything.

Breathamant Yoga, acupuncture, anything.

Just tell me what I need to do and I'll do it because I need this to go away.

I think that would be me too.

Yeah, I did anything, I'll do it.

I'm up for it. And what it has come down to is nature was one of them.

So we live in a location where I can watch the weather.

And so I was able to sit at home and watch storms come and go and just realise that Mother Nature has all the control and we have no control.

And it was a nice visual for me to go, nothing is under my control and the one thing actually I would hate for anything to happen to our children but the one thing I would have wanted to stay in my life was Jock because together we conquer anything and I had no control over that.

I had no control over anything that happened afterwards and there were points where I said I've just got to get out of the way.

I must let this run its course.

I can't stop any of this from happening and I don't strength to, just let it go.

It's a big lesson. And it's a humbling lesson and I think it it's it's like part of the the shittest greatest gift which I, you know, my version of the silver lining which is that this is the shittest greatest gift I could have been given because my gratitude is exponential.

I value my life more than ever.

I've never wanted to be a mum more than I am in moment.

I've never been better mum than I am right now.

I think I'm a better sister and friend.

I'm just more aware.

But I also know my capability.

Like I was pushed really close to the edge and I turned around and said, no, I'm not doing this.

And I had to turn around and walk back and, you know, a new version of me was formed and the bits that kind of could be burned away were.

And so this other version came out of the flames and I'm really proud of that.

It's lots of scar tissue and some, you know, unsavory bits.

But that's who I am.

And I'm the mother that they deserve.

I really believe that Jock chose the right person when he fell in love with me.

And he chose the person that was going to be able to get us through this.

I'm the perfect person to be the mother of his two children and make sure that they are versions of him.

I don't have to do a lot of work.

they're very much like him.

And I want that around me.

I want to talk about Jock every day, you know, even this morning Alfie got out of bed and he's like, I'm gonna be pupper today and speak Scottish.

I'm like, great mate, let's go talk Scottish.

He's like, I stop it.

And I'm like, great, let's be pupper today.

You got to speak like pupper all day.

And so like, let's have fun.

We have fun with Jock now.

You know, I found it when I did his eulogy.

I reread it and it wasn't really a eulogy.

It was kind of like my last letter to Jock in that I just wrote all the stuff we'd lost and were sad about.

And I think he deserved a celebration of him, not his crying widow talking for, I don't even know how long I spoke for.

I think he deserved a celebration of him.

And especially those with people in the room, I wish I could have given them that to go.

I understand we're all in pain, but what a wonderful man, and that's not what I gave them.

Let's do that now, I'd love to have a celebration of Jack.

I'd love to work, because I never met him.

And Bridget, our producer here, who I remember coming to the studio today, because Bridget worked with him on Last of Chef, and I remember coming in here and sitting, we all sat with Bridge.

And she talked about this incredible man.

I'd love to hear you talk about this incredible man.

Oh easily, I'll talk about John nonstop.

He's a wonderful human, incredibly flawed. Life broke him lots.

And each time he rebuilt, he rebuilt it with meaning and purpose.

And I think that at each time he rebuilt, he was saying to that trauma he was carrying with him, that you can't take away the good parts of me.

Trauma is like this demon that wants to just tell you no. And Jock was like, no, I'm not going to do that.

I want to be happy.

I want to be a good person.

I want to be a great husband and father.

So the jock that I knew was incredibly deeply sensitive.

He put a beautiful exterior out that he's a swearing Scottish guy, drunk whisky and you know did all that stuff.

And that was him that was genuine.

But he was just a deeply sensitive person.

And I think my knowledge and education in addiction made me understand the person that jock was.

and gave him a safe place to be himself and to have really honest conversations around where he was at and what he needed.

And so he felt the safety of our home and we were like his docking station that he came back into and we cared and adored him and we got the same in return.

And then he was powered up to go back out there and have, I mean, I just, if I look at, like, I think of Jock's face now, he's smiling, he's laughing.

You know, he's got this, um, he leaves places and he leaves an afterglow cause he's like, God, that was fun.

Or he was a good guy.

Like he just always had that about him.

Like he just had this energy that he just like loved being around.

And so really that energy when that got taken out of our family was really, it was a huge hole for us really hard. And I tried really hard to be fun and be, do energy and it's just not my thing.

So that's, oh, of course really Because he was just stupid with the kids all the time.

So you're almost like trying to play both roles, like being you and Jock and what you both brought.

Yeah, I think that if any parent is removed from a family overnight, there's a huge vacuum.

For us, I think Jock was very much the heart of our home in every way because, we missed him when he was working and we were all at home or on the weekends it was all around him in the kitchen and he'd have Scottish ballads playing in the morning, which said like food time, everyone, let's go.

And he just had a way of creating an environment that we always wanted to be in.

There's some strong genetics, you know, Isla eats chicken skin and like dangles her head back and dangles it in and I'm like, Isla, stop eating like that.

And she's like, but Papa ate like that.

I'm like, he did eat like that.

Okay. Okay. carry it on but don't do it in public, it's alright but don't do it in restaurants.

Yeah so I think that I can I can smile and celebrate Jock now and the the moments of chaos which grief is chaos, the moments are chaos less often and there we get out of it quicker.

And I think that's just the the fact that we're building a bigger life now, not a better life But grief takes up a hundred percent of it.

And so the only way to make it a smaller percent is to make a bigger life.

And we just keep Jock alive in that.

Yeah, maybe I've been thinking about this wrong the whole time.

But I imagine that growing a life bigger without Jock would be so hard. But the way you talk, it's like it's not without him.

No, it's not. Yeah.

I don't believe that someone who has such impact and connection and love, that that energy can just disappear.

Like that just is impossible.

Like you think about if you know, someone you love goes overseas for a week, you can't see them or talk to them, but you still love them and their energy is still present.

And I just feel that with Jock and I get moments where I know Jock's laughing at me and like I went out, I went out one at the cemetery with the kids and I was like, you know what I'm going to weed Jock's grass.

And it was like Jock was laughing at me going, this is the most gardening you've ever done.

I can hear his voice.

And so I find like, I find he's still having fun with me.

It's just a strange thing to explain.

And maybe, maybe that's just coping.

Maybe this is just a make believe world I've created.

But I don't care because something that's really critical in grief is time.

And you can, I, I, in the beginning just handed myself over to the current and was like, I'll just be dragged forward at a pace that time wants me to.

And then I was like, that's enough.

This isn't fast enough.

I've got to get out of this and just work like get onto some stepping stones and get out of here as quickly as I can.

But that was one of the critical parts for me, in addition to nature and medication and journaling and exercise that got me further away from the impact zone.

Getting away from the impact zone has meant I can celebrate Jock, and I can love him without crying and being sad.

I can love him as if he's just away.

And look, I've checked this with my therapist. It's okay.

Like I'm not in complete denial.

It's just that that's what my mind would like.

And so, you know, the balance sheet of something so awful happening is that the universe allows me to do certain things or it gifts me certain stuff.

And so this spiritual connection with Jock is part of that, I think, that I've been gifted it so that it just makes it more possible for me to keep functioning.

Yeah, it's such a beautiful way of describing it because it having no experience with this at all, you hear the phrase, and it's I kind of don't like it.

I've liked being able to on to the next step of your life.

And it feels like you're describing something completely different.

Yeah. You know, I've really enjoyed reading Nick Cave's words.

He's really good at taking really complex feelings around loss and grief and trauma and uncomplicating them.

And that was actually a real breakthrough for me when I started reading his words and his interviews in his book, to sort of understand that it's not over.

Nothing's ever over.

Yes, it's very sad and you have to try and figure out a way forward, but it's actually another layer to you that at some point you'll be grateful for.

And so I think that that gratefulness that I have is I'm so grateful that I had Jock in my life for a period of time and now he's mine forever.

Like he really is mine forever.

And I love that. He's our finaila and Ava's papa forever.

No one can take that away from us.

And it's something that's truly ours.

And as the world moves on and everyone just goes back to normal, which is what happens, we still have him.

And we still love him and I don't want to be sad anymore.

I want to all the time.

And I felt guilty about laughing.

And I read this book, it was called Finding Meaning.

It was a great book, really, really impactful book.

It went through some of the basics around like, what do you do with someone's social media when they die?

What, how do you unpack their wardrobe?

Like just some real basics that you don't know what to do.

Like they seem so simple, but they're so not, you don't want to get it wrong.

And he wrote the the sixth stage of grieving with Elisabeth Kubler -Ross, and then he lived it because his 21 year old son died unexpectedly.

And he said, we didn't laugh or smile for over a year.

I was like, oh. I read this like week three, I was like, this sounds terrible and then Ava and I had a week away, one of my friends, beached houses and just relaxed and had some alone time.

And one night we laughed so hard. I don't think I've ever laughed that heart in my whole life.

And I was so proud of us because I'm like look at us.

It doesn't make us any less sad, but I think we're going to be okay.

Right at the beginning of the conversation you mentioned that your grief felt worse at the one year mark.

Why do you think that was?

I think shock is beautiful.

It's just such a gift. It numbs you and numbs me and got me through the first year.

And then at one year mark, I think that's when I felt it.

I physically couldn't move.

Like it was... that's when I replayed going, this exact time last year, I had to call the police for a welfare check.

This exact time last year, I got a phone call saying, you know, I was getting on a plane and I relived it a year later but without shock and I really felt it.

So I probably had two weeks of being incapable of anything.

Some days I couldn't even get upstairs to go to my bed so I just had to lie downstairs.

I physically felt hit by a bus.

And so I did all the things.

I was like, okay, go to bereavement yoga, walk, don't drink, have some CBD oil.

You know, just listen to music that's not sad.

Like I just went into all the things I'd learnt that could work for me, but it was very hard to get through the one year mark and so the one year mark is actually when it hit me.

So I can see why there's a delayed onset with my friendship group and family dealing with it as well.

Because you need to shelve it to survive and then when you've kind of partially through survival then it has to come back off the shelf.

And you can kick the can down the road, like I truly believe that you can and there's value in that because as time passes, the inflammation reduces and it makes it's made me more capable of things.

And, you know, I've done a lot of reading about shock and trauma on the body and PTSD and different ways of managing that and I just wish there was something, you know, something a bit more medical with grief because, you know, grief can be and a lot of the time is very traumatic and there's something else other than valium.

you know, to get you through that.

It's got to be. And you know, I'd love for there to be more work around grief.

I would love for us to learn about grief.

It's spoken about in whispers like it's taboo.

None of us know what to do.

Everyone's a fingerprint of each other.

We just don't learn it until we live it.

And that can be sometimes too late because everyone else has gone through it and you're at the other side of it.

I just wish that there was more information, more medical approach. You know, it's, it's, you can lose people in grief and you'll lose them forever.

Well said. I know this is a bit of a tone shift, but I kind of want to hear how you and Jock met and what it was that you, how you clicked.

Yeah, yeah. I love talking about how we met.

It's a wonderful time of my life.

One of my friends met Jock at an event.

So, um, I was supposed to go, but I ended up extending my holiday in Paris.

And so she went to this event and met Jock and she's like, I've met this guy.

He's smoking hot, three piece suit.

Um, he's a chef, a champagne ambassador, and he's European.

I was like, Ooh, thinking like he'd be one of the Parisian men I'd been seeing.

And so when I found out he was Scottish, I was like, Oh, it's a bit of a stretch. But yeah, I guess he's European.

And so she sent me a screen grab of his Instagram.

I'm like, Oh, that's a unique name.

And he's pretty hot.

And I said, just go give me my number or something.

And she didn't. And then months later, months, months, months later, I went to my sister's house.

It's my brother's birthday and I just announced to my family, look, I'm asexual.

I'm giving up on this dating game.

All men are idiots.

Like I'm just not doing it anymore.

Just taking a breather.

So then I got in the Uber home because I was like, you know, nearly an hour away from my house and I was just, I don't know why, I was clearing out some emails and killing time.

And I was clearing out my photo album because everyone was dating so we're just flicking each other photos of guys who were dating and all that sort of stuff.

And I was deleting them out of my photo album and I came across that picture of Jock.

I'm like, that's that chef guy.

Then I went into my email and I was clearing out my email and I got all these, you know how they stick clump your Twitter notifications.

And Jock had followed me and I hadn't noticed.

And I had already followed him.

So I was like, Oh, we can talk now.

Why'd he followed you?

I don't know. He told me actually he told me that he saw me and he knew my name from Gruen.

He's like, Oh, she's probably not crazy.

So I'll follow her.

Little did he know.

And then I messaged him and then like it was late 11 PM or something.

He messaged me straight back.

And so we messaged all night.

And then he said, can I take you on a date on Tuesday?

Yeah, of course. So he came to Sydney, we went on a date.

Um, and then he stayed until Friday.

Where did you go on the date?

Um, we went to Frittelli Paradiso in Sydney.

Great. Um, where they treated him like absolute shit, which is perfect because no restaurant would do that.

But they were really protective of me because I would eat in there probably three times a week.

So rocking out with a guy was a little bit like, well, I'll say it was a regular for you?

Yeah, not for dates.

Just for me. Yeah. I used to sit there and journal like multiple nights a week and cry and laugh.

And so they were just a bit protective.

So it was quite funny.

So that was our first date.

And then he went home on Friday and he texted me saying like, So when was the date on a Tuesday?

Tuesday. So he stayed until Friday.

Then he's like, I really have to get back to the restaurant for service.

No one's eating in three days.

No one's eating. And he said, so when do you think you can visit?

I'm like, Well, I could come tonight.

And so I flew to Adelaide that night and then Way to play it cool.

I was really cool. Really dismissive.

Two of you both are being pretty terrible at this stage.

He'd already told me by the Friday that he loved me.

So we just like went into this love fest and just like, he just really exposed all the bad parts of him to kind of get them out of the way, I guess, and to check.

So we just, we just talked and talked and talked and I learned so much about him.

I was like, this is crazy good.

Like, and I just felt such a connection to him and then so yeah I played hard to get and I went there straight away and then did you call your mom and just say hey just hold that asexual thing just for a second, but you know what I did I got on the flight and I emailed my sister and I've read the email since and it just said you'll never believe it but like I'm flying to Adelaide I've met this guy and I think his love at first sight like I actually think I love this guy and so I read this email since just going what a beautiful moment in time I emailed my sister like who emails the sister that you

would text or call but...

It's very formal. It's very formal and then...

What was the subject, Eddie?

I can't remember. I will look it up.

And then I spent a week there and then he spent a week in Sydney and then we just went into that and then it became like nine days in Adelaide, five days here and then...yeah.

I mean, things move really fast. So we, we met in October.

We're trying for a baby.

Two months later, we'd bought a house.

hang on um i know you're trying to have kids two months after you met yeah well again why not no you know i don't you know yeah just like i wanted everything with jock really quick i wanted it all and i when i met him i said look i'm freezing my eggs just as a safety thing he said why don't you just not do that let's just go off the pill and just see if you fall pregnant i was like sure why not so we started things really quickly which is crazy eight weekends and you're like trying for a baby it's silly So, yeah, two months in we're trying for a baby, maybe three months after that.

We'd bought a house three months after that.

We're engaged, six months after that.

Married and then Alfie soon after that.

So kind of just rolled.

And I really am grateful for that because we jammed.

We didn't waste time.

Jammed in life. And what if we hadn't?

What if we'd waited and maybe we wouldn't have had Isla.

I mean I can't imagine like all the different different scenarios of where we would have been.

Um, but in that, you know, there were friends that didn't like the, the speed of it.

And so I did lose some, some close friends in the process.

They would say things to me like, you know, do you have a prenup?

And I'd be like, wow, that's so none of your business.

And then we just lose touch. And I look at it now going, of course you would ask those questions.

That seems fair. But in the, you know, in the throes of this extraordinary, he's such high energy and so amazing.

I just can't believe he's mine and life together is happening.

Yeah, things move really fast and, you know, it's actually really beautiful that I can like read Jock's book and hear his version of our love and the way we fell in love and the love he had for me.

And there was the respect we have for each other for different parts of our personality and our skills and our life.

And he read his book as well.

So I'm hearing his words." It's like actually such a gift for me, but a real gift for the kids to hear that about their parents.

You know, it doesn't happen very often that that's the case.

You've spoken really beautifully about your role as a mum.

And then also it's sort of been implicitly talked about as being Jock's widow, but do you have a strong sense of who Lauren is?

Yeah I do now because I feel like I had nothing.

Like, I thought I was a person and then I was referred to as Jocks Widow.

My name sometimes wasn't even used.

Or Jocks Widow Lauren.

And so I felt like I was defined by that and that was my identity.

And off that I had, I don't know if it's real or imagined, but I had this feeling that I now had to bring up his children And I had to protect his legacy and that I was just the doer of jockiness.

And so I let that be because I think it was imagined.

And then I went, OK, let's start rebuilding.

And what's most urgent?

Most urgent is Mother.

How do I rebuild as a mum?

And I loved the version, the old version of mum that I was.

And I lost that. And so I wanted to get it back.

And so I needed to find calmness and calmness was lacking.

I couldn't do two things at once.

I couldn't have a thought and listen to the kids or loud noises still, just, it's like a PTSD thing.

I hear a loud noise and it's like, a gun has gone off next to me.

Like, it's like, I've got frayed nerves.

So I've had to sort of unpack each thing one at a time.

And so rebuilding as mum, and I now refer to them as my children, because they were our children, and they are our children but sometimes I have to say to myself, they're my children because they're my responsibility, sole responsibility now.

But I, I am defined by Jock's death.

I'm comfortable with that now.

But the way I look at it is I'm defined by that because that's helping me create the best version of myself.

Because I want that for me and I want that for the kids.

And to be honest, like I deserve that.

I deserve to have this life that is well lived because I was going to have that and now I'm not having that version, but I still want that.

I want a big life. I want experiences and moments and culture and language and all the beauty of life.

I want all of that.

And it's not selfish.

It's just a drive that I have. And I need to open up my heart and mind to be able to accept that in.

And that's a new part of going.

The new version of me is softer but much more determined.

That is so amazing.

And that is just God, for so many people, that is so hopeful.

That is really, I love that.

I'm, something I'm really, because you've gone through something which is in many ways is very common, but also extremely unique.

And you have a very, I guess, unique perspective on life.

Before he died, how would you describe what life is about?

And then now, has that changed?

I think that I always looked at life in really short blocks of time.

I don't know why, I always thought of these few years, these few years." Then I went around, when I met Jacques, it became a life I could see really far into the future and I was really excited by that, maybe a bit smug, that like I'd nailed it.

Like I'd found this gorgeous guy, he was awesome.

We loved life together.

And now I don't think like that anymore.

I think, in short, I've reverted back into short bursts of time.

It also is probably all I can get my head around with young children to go, I don't know where we're going to live in 10 years.

I don't know if I can buy a house here.

I don't know. I don't strive for that anymore.

I look at life in periods of time where I'm free to be a mum.

So, I know that for the rest of this year, the kids have my complete attention.

I'm excited by that.

I don't know what next year looks like.

You know, it just doesn't matter.

But I think I've also, I've always I've been pretty philosophical.

I've been very, I'm always, I'm quite a romantic about life generally and I think I've been a student of therapy.

You know, I've had the same therapist, oh gosh, over 15 years now.

I can imagine that would have been, that would have been a huge comfort to have a relationship with the therapist and when something horrible like that happens to have someone to talk to.

Critical, it was critical.

and even now, like last week, I was getting into a bit of some negative thoughts and sometimes I can get myself out of it and other times it just lingers for a week or two.

And I had my conversation with her and it all made sense, and she had all the right words, and I read something.

I was like, cool. The thing is that she, because I've been with her for so long, I started seeing her back when I kind of realized that I wasn't great with people, I was like why friendships, relationships, staff, everything kind of leaves me.

Why is that? And as I sort of tried to educate myself through that, with literature, I thought maybe it's sort of this addiction, because my dad drank heavily and often, he still does, and so I thought I just might unpack addiction.

And as I unpacked addiction and then I thought, maybe I've got the characteristics of an addict, not behaviour, but maybe growing up next to one, maybe I'm like him and I just don't care about people.

And so then I found a therapist that specialised in addiction and that's when I met Tanya and that's when we quickly discovered I am in fact nothing like my dad, which was a relief.

And then she educated me through addiction, with that meant that I was very open to loving Jock knowing that he used to be an addict.

You know, he came to Australia when he was mid -twenties and had his last shot in the airport at Heathrow and then didn't touch drugs again and that's not a common story that you can just stop taking heroin I mean he'd been taking drugs for a really long time but he made a commitment and that is so jock like when he decided on something it was a decision and he never went back on it he was very self -disciplined like that but when he wrote his book and he detailed sort of his life, his earlier life with drugs.

It was really important to him that he wrote that book and then he realized the impact it had when he was on his book tour and a dad and a son would come up and the dad would say my son's currently addicted to heroin and I wanted to see if you could talk to him.

And so Jock started having a lot of these conversations.

I got a lot of DMs from people after Jock died and then I saw the history and the conversations and people would reach out to Jock, whether they were carers, parents, actually someone going through an addiction and Jock would respond and then keep in touch with them and check in on them.

And he did this constantly and I didn't know about that.

And then I saw it and I was like, what an extraordinary man.

But he actually gave people hope, he gave parents hope that maybe their children might be able to work out of this.

There's no question in my mind that he saved someone's life along the way by talking about that side of things.

And so when I was thinking about writing a book and how personal it was, and is there any benefit?

Jock would absolutely tell me to write this book.

I can, I feel very anxious about it because I don't want people to be mean to me.

I don't know what kind of human being could hear your story and choose to be mean to you.

I hope not. I hope not.

Um, who knows, let's see.

It's um, yeah, I know your growth, but I don't know your growth.

And saying at the start of this interview, there's a presence or aura about you.

It makes sense now.

Like it really makes sense.

The second you walked in, you can just feel there's something so special about this person.

And that was, what a privilege to listen to you talk.

It really was. Thanks so much guys.

It was the first time we've actually talked about it.

So yeah. I felt very safe for you guys.

Thank you. We spoke incredibly well.

It's unbelievable. Hugh, it's Ryan.

Wow. that was incredible.

It was so, so memorable, but I meant to grab you, actually, before you left. You know how I often call you sometimes after some of our episodes and leave you a message like this, like a voicemail message.

I know you're busy and stuff, and I totally get it, but it's been six years and I was just wondering, when you're going to call back yeah no big E but in case you haven't got my number it's so I'll just give it to it so know for one seven five two eight nine two seven six one four nine zero two seven six five two seven nine four five two eight two triple eight seven five one three five nine double two double nine double one zero seven 7 3 7 2 double 9 8 2 5 3 4 2 0 7 5 3 4 6 7 5 7 2 6 3 9 4 9 8 1 2 0 1 0 1 0 6 4 6 6 4 5 6 5 43.

I am about to change that though so let me know when you're doing a call me back and I'll let you know that you don't bruse okay it's a it's Ryan Shelton from from the podcast you enjoy this episode but one a little bit more we've got some good news we have a brand new show called a little more imperfects and it's on patreon for a little bit of money you'll get access to bonus episodes with you Ryan and Josh every fortnight early access to live events plus other things we haven't even thought of yet.

Visit patreon .com slash the imperfect.

The Imperfect is hosted and produced by Huw van Kylenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh van Kylenberg.

Our Executive Producer is Brigit Northeast, Assistant Producer Bella Northeast. This episode is edited by George Martin with music from No Mono. The Imperfect is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice treatment or assessment.

The advice given in this episode is general in nature but if you're please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14

[Navigating Cataclysmic Grief: A Conversation with Lauren Zonfrillo]-[Lauren Zonfrillo - Grief: The Shittest Greatest Gift]

📋 Summary

The Unimaginable Journey: Lauren Zonfrillo on Love, Loss, and Rebuilding

The Immediate Impact of Loss

Parenting Through the Impossible

The Rituals of Grief and Healing

Finding a 'New Version' of Self

Conclusion: The Shittiest Greatest Gift

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript