You're listening to Roundtable, I'm Yuhan Lin, joined by Steve and Yishun.
Coming up, dogs won't care how much their dinner costs to make in a lab, but your wallet might.
Lab -grown pet food is here, aiming to please pups and planet alike, without needing German presentation.
And, are we getting sleep all wrong?
A groundbreaking study shows that staying up late could actually enhance reasoning and memory, giving night out a surprising edge.
What do you say to staying up late today?
But first, it's been just over 11 years since the first burger made from meat grown in the laboratory was served to a human, offering the world the promise of a kinder, more sustainable form of meat production.
Now, lab -grown meat is poised to enter a domain that feel would have thought possible even a year ago.
A British company recently received approval from regulators in the United Kingdom to sell lab -grown meat in pet food, a milestone it's said was a world first.
What are the challenges involved?
And, when can our pups look forward to matching on lab -grown foodies?
What other developments are happening in the lab -grown food industry?
These are the questions that we're going to tackle today.
Do you remember when that first, quote unquote, burger came out?
It was 2013. It was a single patty.
It was such a huge piece of news at the time.
It was created by a Dutch pharmacologist.
His name was Mark Post and that burger cost $300 ,000 to make.
It sounds like I'm joking, but I'm not.
They took stem cells from a cow.
Then, in an institute in the Netherlands, they turned those into strips of muscle and they combined to make a patty.
It took two years to produce that and it was tested on live television in London in August of that year.
It was such a huge event that they even put it on TV.
Since that time, it's been a long time and production costs have fallen far enough for a few companies to offer cultured meat at different restaurants in different areas of the world.
But, yeah, as you mentioned, where that idea, which at one time seemed so wild to us, it's now so normal and attainable, cultured meat, meat from plant -based products.
One field where we didn't expect to see this, cultured meat, is in pet food.
But now, as you mentioned, this company from the UK, it's gotten the green light from regulators to sell lab -grown meat in their pet food.
Again, this is something that was unexpected even within the industry itself.
Even we say it's not something that we find unfamiliar with.
Actually, for those of you who are not that into the, let's say, lab -grown meat or plant -based meat world, the idea is basically for the plant -based meat, we basically replace animal protein with plant proteins derived from sources like soybeans, wheat, and peas.
As for the lab -grown meat, we basically get some cells from a certain animal and grow them in the lab instead of, you know, grow the animal directly.
And after several different steps, including cell sample extraction, cell cultivation, cell differentiation, yes, they will differentiate even when they're growing in the lab, and harvesting and processing the meat can be used, technically speaking, can be used as food for both human and pet.
And being used for pet is the new thing we're talking about now.
Yeah. And it is going to be expensive, and that's one of the issues that they're dealing with right now.
Owen Essner is the CEO and co -founder of the company that we were talking about.
And he did say that the product is going to be priced at a premium when it comes out, but he didn't say exactly how much it's going to cost.
But again, it's one of the challenges, how to make it affordable to the point that people will actually pay for it.
Because I think as a pet owner, people will want to...
Well, there's two things.
People want to give their pets really good food.
They don't want to give them garbage, right?
Some people would also go for organic to the extreme, yes.
Yeah. So they want to feed their pets the best food possible, because it's good for the pet's health as well, obviously.
But then it has to be affordable, doesn't it?
If it's priced at a point where people could say, yeah, I would love to buy this, but I have other things in my life, other responsibilities financially, I just can't afford to do it.
So the moment the price is too high, and this is according to the CEO, you lose your audience.
And at the moment, it is too high.
But he did say that within six to nine months of when he was speaking, they would come to this sort of commercially viable price point.
And then once they get to that point, then they can scale up their production.
Yes. Price is definitely one factor here.
Before asking, allowing Yuxuan to ask his questions, I want to ask you one question.
That is, are you a pet owner?
I am not, but I used to have.
OK. So as a pet owner, would you be open to the idea of left ground meat for your pet?
That's exactly why I'm going to going to ask.
Great. You know, the point is that these people are trying to develop a type of meat that is typically not meat, but it tastes like meat.
So it's not pet food.
It's just meat. And my, for example, my cat is going to have these meat and they're eating it, feels feel like they are eating meat.
But one thing is that, you know, pet food might not really need to resemble meat in terms of appearance and taste anymore nowadays.
You know, today's cat and dog food already lacks the taste of meat or perhaps that.
Do you know those from experience?
Smells like meat, but it doesn't have to taste like meat.
Yeah, you're right.
It's pet food and it doesn't have to be.
This is a quote actually from the CEO.
This is a funny quote.
He said, pets have less specific visual expectations of their food.
So we don't need to make these very complex, difficult steps of differentiation and scaffolding.
Scaffolding, for example, making the cell into a specific fat cell or muscle cell or kidney cell and then scaffolding it or building it to make it look like a steak.
With these burgers, for example, or steaks, then it has to for us, for people, it has to resemble that.
If it's just a blob of paste, well, then it's probably not going to sell very well.
But this particular product we're talking about, it's more like, I guess, maybe a little bit more closer to something that we wouldn't consume ourselves visually speaking.
But his point is, and your point, you should, dogs and cats, they don't care about presentation.
And for those of you who are curious about why Roundtable is talking about something that is so niche, let me tell you, it's not that niche.
Actually, according to Forbes, the food consumed by pets only in the United States generates 64 million tons of carbon emissions annually.
If these paths were considered a country, their annual meat consumption would rank fifth globally, which means that if we can actually change these meats into the kind of lab grown meat, we can make a difference to the planet.
Absolutely, we can.
And that's one of the questions that pet owners had, and people in general had, is that are these pet food options going to be better for the environment than say your typical or traditional pet food that you would buy at the store?
And the answer is yes.
And the difference is quite staggering, actually.
There's a Czech biotech startup that has revealed the environmental benefits its products offers over conventional meat.
And they published the results of a life cycle assessment or LCA determining the climate impact of producing cultivated meat for pets.
And according to their study, the results showed that their pet food generates at least 84 percent fewer emissions than beef, depending on how the ladder is produced, of course.
The difference could be as much though as 95 percent.
It also uses between 80 percent and 97 percent less land than beef.
That makes sense, doesn't it?
And they have the potential to reduce that even further.
The food needs only to produce their food, it needs only 3 .1 square meters of land per kilogram of meat.
And that includes, you know, we talk about supply chain, that includes all the growing of the necessary raw materials.
For context, beef, I just mentioned their pet food or their meat takes up 3 .1 square meters of land.
For beef, it takes up as much as 120 square meters of land.
And there you can see the absolute massive difference.
Yeah, we all know that, not we all know, but there is a fact that farming industry is a huge influence in environmental changes and climate change.
And one point is that, of course, it's not going to be groundbreaking that, OK, all of the pads are going to have.
Yeah, and we can see at least that there are a little bit of change if we are having these kind of things in our pads bowls.
And one another thing I can think of about these lab grown meat is the food safety, because they can be produced in controlled environments, I would say, and then reducing the risk of foodborne diseases.
Yes, not only for pets, but also the kind of disease that can transmit from pet to the pet owners.
So definitely that's one thing.
And not only, well, if we think about the situation only from a very, very practical perspective, actually, business owners love this idea as well.
For those of you who are not familiar with the idea of ESG, it started to be something that is quite popular and is being considered by a lot of different businesses recently.
That is referred to as responsible investment or ESG investment.
It is an investment strategy and practice that integrates environmental, social and governance factors into investment decisions.
It serves as a compliment to traditional financial analysis and portfolio construction techniques, which means that a lot of countries are taking into consideration the concept of energy conservation, emissions reduction, the concept of carbon neutrality.
All these are considered by a lot of different companies.
And we get to see that the possibility of growing meat or lab grown meat being used in pet food can definitely be a perk or be a factor promoting the idea of ESG investment.
So are people or what are the public sentiment like these days towards the alternative meat industry?
Well, yeah, if you look at the industry as a whole, I mean, there have been other developments as of late, but the public sentiment seems to be how would I explain this?
Maybe it's lost its luster a little tiny bit.
I went to a website called Green Queen, which is a rep.
It doesn't sound like it, but it's a reputable website.
And they were saying that in the US, sales of plant based meat alternatives dipped by 26 percent between 2021 and 2023.
And investment fell by 44 percent as well.
Those are really significant numbers.
There's another indicator in the decline of the industry, too.
That was a decline in priority filings for patents.
Now, that doesn't seem like an obvious connection, but here's why it is.
Priority filing patents are first patent applications for unique inventions.
So those for plant based meats dropped for the first time in a decade.
They were down seven percent in 2022.
You know, there was still a billion dollars invested and a lot more money, too, given from government research funding.
But you can see there, right?
You can draw the line between the number of patent filings.
That means that they're not trying to come out with new creative ideas for this as much as they were before.
Yes. And one thing or let's say one keyword of the topic is definitely the lab grown meat.
And we're seeing the situation of lab grown meat.
And I have to say this in advance before I bring about the second keyword of pet food.
That is the second keyword, which is pet food.
That is I am a pet owner.
I love my pet and I understand for pet owners.
We only want the very, very best for our pets.
But we also need to take into consideration the budget, which is why if you look back at the development of pet food industry compared to at least a human food, the pet food sector often enjoys greater space for innovation exploration, which is why we can take it as a good opportunity.
And also your explanation.
I mean, Steve, your explanation reminded me of one point is that, you know, this is also kind of a response to the ongoing innovation, you know, and holds the potential to free people from their reliance on livestock farming.
But when we're looking back, we've also discussed the possibility that, you know, one day people might develop a universal supplement.
You can take one bottle of drink or just one pill each day and that will fulfill all of your nutritional needs.
But at least I asked people around me, most of them are still reluctant to embrace this, you know, this kind of idea and not even pet food.
No. You know, the emergence of lab grown meat for pet food might be a choice between these two extremes.
Like a halfway, halfway point.
Yeah, exactly. Yes.
And I did a little research.
This is kind of like off topic, but I find it amusing.
I want to share with you.
That is before 1860, that was the year the invention of dog biscuits.
Pet food primarily came from left over overs of human meals.
And in 1918, with the rise of merchandise to transportation, horses became cheaper, providing a business opportunity for the pet food industry.
The first can dog food contain actually surplus horse meat.
So that was the innovation.
And in 1941, the demand for mass production led to the creation of dry dog food.
So we get to see that during the past years, actually new inventions, development, new quote unquote experiments on the dog food industry has happened so many times.
And maybe it is time for lab grown meat to enter the pet food sector so that we can embrace a better environment, more sustainable industry and even cheaper price in the future.
Yeah. Yes. Again, hopefully that price point when they come out with the product is going to be at least competitive.
Would you be, would you be willing to pay a little bit more for your pet's food if you knew that it was better for the environment and also healthy for your pet?
Mm, I think the answer is yes.
Yeah. My my my when I had dogs, my answer would be yes as well.
What would your answer be?
My answer would be yes.
So there you go. That's a very small survey.
But I think that these types of companies are looking at that type of information.
They know that pet owners, they'll spend a little bit more if they know that they're doing something nice for their pet and if they get the added bonus of doing something good for the environment.
But again, you can't price it to the point where people just can't afford to pay for it.
And also you get to you also have to let the pet owners know a bit more like scientifically what is happening behind the creating of the lab grown meat about the type of nutrition it can provide to the pet and whether or not they're really, really healthy.
And I'm saying that because actually in certain pet food brands they have added coke roach powder in the product to add protein.
And for some pet owners, it's unacceptable.
But remember that one specific medicine was actually the extract from coke roaches.
So it's not a big deal.
It's just the education, the information need to be there for people to accept the idea.
Yeah, you don't want to put that on your front label.
No. But you got to sell this stuff, too.
Just quickly before we put a bow on this topic, they say that the, you know, back to the human side of things that the glory days of alternative proteins were around the early twenty twenties.
And the problem these days is the post pandemic cost of living because plant based meat sales have bombed by at least 13 percent over the last couple of years.
That's from Good Food Institute data.
And in contrast, between 2020 and 2022, some markets reported growth as high as 21 percent.
So it seems like the shine or the excitement on alternative proteins has has kind of calmed down a little bit in terms of the way people are looking at it.
But one of the I said there there have been recent developments now they can grow foie gras in a lab.
So scientists are still out there.
They're working hard.
They're coming out with new products.
And hopefully we can see those numbers come back to a healthier healthier kind of future for for us.
Yes. And maybe with enough research and experiment and types of new products, numerous new products, there will be the breakthrough moment for the lab grow meat.
And we are here to look forward to it.
You're listening to Roundtable coming up next.
Let's find out how come some people are sending their well, actually they're sending their pillows away because they feel like staying up late is a better choice for them.
Stay tuned. Looking for passion?
How about fiery debate?
Want to hear about current events in China from different perspectives?
Then tune in to Roundtable where East meets West and understanding is the goal.
It's Roundtable with myself, Neil Honley and Steve Heatherly and Yuxuan.
Sleep tight or stay bright.
Night owls rejoice.
Turns out all those late night adventures might be fueling your brainpower, not training it.
Morning people, feel free to hit snooze.
Do we agree with the idea or the concept of staying up late, meaning you are taking care of your brain is the next question we're going to answer.
The first question here is both of you.
Are you night owls or early birds?
I try not to be, but I cannot help.
Yeah, you know, that is something that you can...
I mean, the time, like after nine is the time that you can actually spend maybe with yourself because after a whole day of work and then you finally have to have time to go through all of these short videos or just spending time with your loved ones.
So it is quite hard for people to not be in a night owl nowadays, I would say.
You're naturally the type of person who just stays up late and enjoys it.
I think so. Yeah, me too.
Me too. I don't like going to bed early.
I always feel like I'm going to miss something really super exciting.
You're right. And nothing super exciting ever happens, but I just feel like it will if I go to bed at nine or ten.
Sometimes, you know, the earliest I'll go to bed is around ten thirty, but that's if I'm if I'm really exhausted.
Yeah. But typically, one a .m.
is my... Wow, that is late.
But it's not. I mean, I know people who stay up until two or three or four and they'll stay up working.
They're not just, you know, watching movies or short form videos.
Yeah, working. They'll work in the middle of the night as well.
Yeah. So I think maybe this survey or this research is going to make us feel better.
So because it is saying that the idea of staying up late is not hurting our brain, whether, you know, taking care or making our brain function better, isn't it?
Yeah. So researchers from ICL, Imperial College London, analyzed data from over 26000 individuals and found that late sleepers and intermediate type scored higher on tests of intelligence, reasoning, reaction time and memory, while early sleepers and risers scored the lowest.
And the research team actually analyzed how factors like sleep duration, quality, and influence their performance on these tests.
And the study found that those categorized as night owls and those with an intermediate chronotype actually exhibited stronger cognitive function compared to morning birds.
But I don't know. I mean, I've seen these different type of researchers a lot, research a lot, and some of the research say that the more messy your room is, it shows that you are smarter than other people.
It says that if your table is messy, it means that you're organized in your brain.
I do not buy that anymore.
One day it's coffee is terrible for you.
The next study, coffee is amazing for you.
You know, it depends on how they conduct their studies.
Have you heard of survivorship, by survivorship bias before?
That's when researchers only research a subset of the population and that can perhaps lead to untrustworthy results.
Or let me rephrase, that can lead to the results that they are looking to find.
Right. And that could be the case here.
But that said, you know, there is evidence that going to bed late is strongly associated with very creative types.
For example, author James Joyce, that's a name from a long time ago.
He was a night owl, a more modern name.
Kanye West, the singer, if you're familiar.
Let me rephrase, rapper if you're familiar with him.
Yeah, so there's evidence that artistic artistic types enjoy staying up late.
And the reason they say that staying up late and being a night owl is good for your creativity is because there's no pressure at that time of the day.
You're not going to be bombarded with phone calls or emails if you've got kids.
They're probably in bed by that time.
So it's a time when everything quiets down and you're really allowed to explore your creative side.
Yeah, I can feel that, you know, even though I'm not an artist.
But I feel that, you know, that kind of stillness of that night with everything around is so quiet.
You can focus better and, you know, inspiration seems to flow more abundantly.
Even I was just doing my homework.
But when we know that there are a lot of drawbacks or disadvantages of staying up relate, I think the benefits and drawbacks of staying up late don't necessarily conflict with each other, you know, because staying up late might boost your creativity, of course, but it could also negatively affect your
mental health. And we know that a lot of artists can be both creative and with mental health.
We've simply listed some night owl artists, but we haven't delved into their mental health conditions.
So they don't necessarily conflict.
Yeah. So one last question.
Do you think in today's day and age, like you shouldn't said, because we're always online, we're always connected, well, one way or another, it's already impossible for one to be a early bird in terms that you go to sleep early and you get up early.
Is it impossible to do that?
Hmm. I don't think it's impossible to do that, but you have to proactively manage your sleep patterns.
And that's what the doctors in this study say as well.
And if you're doing that, then you're doing the right thing.
But I don't think it's impossible to be a person who goes to bed early and wakes up early.
Maybe I should rephrase myself because we know physically or we are born in certain ways.
Some of us are born the kind that want to stay up late.
Some actually without the quote unquote intervention of Internet, maybe we would choose to go to bed early and wake up early.
But isn't Internet a very strong factor here?
Well, yeah, I mean, if you're a if you're a doom scroller, the blue screen we know is not good for you or the blue light is not good for you before you go to sleep.
So you have to force yourself to not do that.
Bedtime is for bedtime, not for catching up on social media throughout the day.
But, you know, that's a lot easier said than done.
Yes. And just don't forget managing time patterns and getting just enough rest are the key to, you know, unlocking your potential and fully enjoy your lives.
That brings us to the end of today's roundtable.
We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's topics.
Leave us a comment or send us an email to roundtablepodcast at QQ .com.
That's roundtablepodcastatqq .com.
Until next time, keep the conversations going and the ideas flowing.
I'm Yuhan Lin with Steve and Yushin.
Thanks for listening.
Bye.
