Know Your Worth: How to Negotiate Higher Pay Without Conflict or Fear | Negotiate Anything

Do you want to level up your marketing fast?

Meet Brevo, an all-in-one marketing and CRM platform that helps you to run email and SMS campaigns, manage leads and automate follow-ups.

Plus Aura, Brevo's AI assistant, helps you write smarter campaigns and optimize performance.

Start free or use code ANYTHING50 to save 50 on starter and standard plans for the first three months of an annual subscription at brevocom.

Slash anything.

Shopify makes it easy to sell online and in person with customizable templates.

Welcome to this Negotiation Masterclass edition of Negotiate Anything.

With over 1600 episodes featuring some of the world's brightest minds, we've carefully curated three powerful conversations for you.

What makes this so special is that you'll hear how different experts from different industries approach the same challenge in their own unique ways.

Our goal is to give you multiple perspectives so you can build your own unique style.

Success doesn't look the same for everyone.

And in this masterclass, you will see exactly why.

Let's dive in.

Hey everyone, it's Kwame Christian host of Negotiate Anything asking you to.

Please do not skip forward because this is not a commercial.

OK, I've got something for you.

So we want to hear from you, our incredible listeners, because your feedback is super helpful in making the show even better.

We've created a quick and fun form to get to know you.

And this is your chance to make the show even closer to what you love.

And here's the best part.

If you fill out the form before December 31st 2024, you'll be entered into a raffle to win a signed copy of my book, delivered straight to your door.

It only takes a few minutes and your input will help to shape the future of Negotiate Anything.

Find the form in the description of this episode.

Thanks for helping us to make the show even better and even more connected to you.

Good luck in the raffle.

Crystal, thanks for joining us today.

I am so excited to be here, Kwame.

Yes, and we are excited to have you, my friend.

So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Absolutely.

Well, I tell people I do two things.

I do insurance. which is the unsexy part of what I do.

Unless you do it, it can be actually sexy.

And then I help women learn and grow into a career that they truly love, that makes them overjoyed and happy and works for their life.

And the reason I started doing that is because I found a way to create a career through corporate work, through working at a law firm, to transitioning to insurance, to becoming an investor and entrepreneur, and figured out how to make that work for my life and what I wanted and the vision that I had for myself and really just exponentially bring happiness to my life.

And I am so big on wanting to help women do that as well, and owning their worth and getting maximum value while doing that.

I love that.

And also make sure you let the listeners know about your new course that's coming out now, too.

Yeah.

So I have been working on a course called Salary Wise which will have the six part framework.

I called Earn It to help women figure out where they're going wrong and how to improve their ability to promote themselves financially.

Because I always say humble doesn't pay the bills how to get the market data that they need to put together the best package for themselves.

And how to change their mindset to really hone in on what is unique and amazing and all the skills they've cultivated to go in and get the big ask, whether it's at their same company or whether it's going out and making a huge quantum leap to a new position.

Because I just think that that is incumbent upon us, that women really struggle with the What is our value and how do we define it and how do we talk about that.

And once we can do that and once we collectively are actually doing that, I think we'll see that pay gap, you know, start closing because the data shows us It's not a very big gap for women under the age of 30, but as you get older the pay gap actually increases.

And what I find fascinating about that and fascinating in a negative way is that our biggest earning years and I say us humans, people in general in America, The biggest earning years are in your 40s and 50s.

If the pay gap is actually getting larger, at those times women are missing out on millions and millions and millions of dollars.

And we've got to find a way to change that.

We have to find a way to dig deep.

And even if we aren't taught in our culture to talk about money or advocate for ourselves, we have to break out of that cycle because money, our lives and our retirement and our joy and life satisfaction are really depending on it.

I agree.

And that's why the work that you do is so important.

And so I'm excited about the course and listeners.

Of course we have a link to the course in the description.

So if you're interested, make sure you check out that link so you can learn how to make this happen for you.

Because I think, for me, one of the things that's so empowering about the way that you are approaching this is that you're giving people the tools, the mindset and the skill set that's necessary in order to create the life of our dreams.

But we have to understand how to actually get it done.

And a big part of that is your perspective on value.

And that's going to be our focus for today. just this word value.

And there's so many different ways that we can go through this, because we have the psychological sense internally.

How are we valuing ourselves?

How do other people value us?

What is value as it relates to negotiation and what we're actually negotiating for?

So I think a fun way to start off this conversation on value is talking about some of the misconceptions that that people might have about the term.

And so, when you're coaching people and seeing people go through your programs, what are some thoughts that people have about the concept of value that are a little bit askew?

Yeah.

So I will say that the number one thing that I find I've talked to and I work with some men as well, but largely who I'm working with is women.

So a lot of what I'm going to talk about is more women centric.

It doesn't mean it doesn't apply to men.

It's just that my experience is more largely focused on women.

And the number one thing that women find with value is like what is my inherent value and what value am I creating?

The question around what their value is, the number one issue.

And if we don't understand our own value, how can we communicate our value?

How can we raise awareness to our value?

And how can we show others we should get paid for that value?

And it's a really deep conversation to think about and have and dive into the issue, because I believe that it stems from us historically, women historically being caregivers and there not being a monetary value that you can place upon that.

And then our current culture in America.

It's not really one where it supports women that are caregivers.

It doesn't support women that are not that it's anti-supportive, but you just don't see there aren't commercials for that.

We're not applauding women who decide to stay home.

So if our nature, our basic nature, is not valued in our culture, then how do we translate our working value into something that we can talk about and share with other people?

So I think that is where it's really just difficult from the outset for women.

And then we're taught a lot of times not specifically.

This is like a subtle way that we're taught to be quiet and demure and good girls and yes, and polite.

So standing up and demanding and asking and saying, you know, I need this.

I must have.

Why?

Those are not things that we are.

And the third issue, kind of culturally, is that women nobody talks about money that much.

First and foremost,

But secondly, women definitely are not talking about money the value what you're doing, the work you're doing, what value it has, whether it's in the confines of your job, the greater environment, your town, whatever it may be.

We're just not talking about those things.

So I think the question is, how do I find the value?

How do I know what my value is?

It's a big topic.

It's not really something that's to the side or on the periphery of what people are experiencing.

It is really front and center to what women are struggling with.

It's just how do I figure out what my own value is and then how do I communicate it to other people?

Yeah, I'm glad you brought this up because it's really really challenging and we have to fully appreciate this challenge as well.

Because if we are negotiating value, there's a lot of.

It's almost like a quid pro quo type of thing.

You give me this, I give you that.

There's some way to ascertain the value that I'm bringing to the table, and then we can try to reverse engineer some compensation for that.

But the scenario that you painted, that you brought to the table here, is really interesting because the example of being a caregiver

Everybody knows that's valuable.

How would we put a price to that?

We'll say, okay, you know, this is priceless.

Okay, that's a nice thing to say, but it makes it very hard to quantify too.

And I can see how that can translate to the workplace as well.

And when it comes to our ability to ascertain our own value and then communicate it to other people, where would you suggest somebody starts when it comes to figuring out how much value you bring to the table?

Yeah.

So the first piece is really the internal value.

And that can be a struggle for people if they haven't.

I was listening to Mel Robbins on a podcast this morning who talks a lot about mental and therapy type solution.

And so in some ways we have to get to that, right?

That's like a first starting point for some people, because if you've grown up in a family or your first jobs, your first your college experiences did not create an inherent value or worth within yourself.

That may be the starting point for some people.

And I have worked with some women like that where they really had to do some deep work.

They may have also needed to go into some kind of therapy, but we're not going to focus on that.

I am definitely not a therapist.

But it's understanding that we were born and first and foremost, everybody has a value.

Everybody has an inherent value that is not quantifiable, right?

To your family, to your friends, to your children, to all those around you, you have a huge value.

Find that, tap into that value.

And you really find that deep inner worth.

When it comes to our true work histories, we have to look at what have we done?

How have we brought value?

Sometimes those are easy to identify in projects that you manage, savings that you have accumulated for the company sales that you have made.

Deals you have done acquisitions divestitures, whatever they may be, they can have easy to identify.

I used to actually joke with one of the tax directors that are working on the big construction project.

And he was negotiating tax advantages with the county and the city.

And I was like, wow, you're amazing. moneymaker in some ways.

So those are like easy to identify ways, but those aren't always the case.

You're a lawyer by background.

I'm a lawyer by background.

Lawyers are a cost to the company.

So how are you identifying places?

Once you start thinking about it, that's the first hurdle.

Then you can start working on identifying places.

What are KPIs that you can work on?

What are you doing so many contracts?

Are you working on so many invoices?

Are you touching a certain number of clients?

Are you making the lives easier of the people that are making money?

What are the things that you are doing that you can do better than somebody else, or that is really a skill for you, and start just writing it down.

It's not like a journaling exercise, but it's just like, what are the things that you're doing?

And when you start reflecting on that in a strategic and thoughtful and intentional way, it will start coming together for you on what the value that you are providing for your job, for your role, for your company.

And I think once you have a little arsenal things that you have done and worked for you will start seeing the value come alive for yourself.

Yeah, I love this.

And so two main points here answering the question how have you brought value to the team, the organization or whatever it is that you're negotiating with, whatever the entity happens to be, and then identifying how that value translates into KPIs.

I think that's really strong because you're making it concrete at that point.

And one of the things that I've recognized recently pattern that I've started to see is that sometimes it's easier for other people to see the value that you bring, because it's almost like we can become blind to our value because we bring it so consistently.

We just assume that everybody does the same thing in the same way.

And so sometimes asking somebody What value do I bring to the table is a great way to start to get an idea of how other people are seeing your value, which might lead to you increasing your own value, not in an inaccurate way, but with just more objective information that's coming from a different perspective.

Absolutely.

And that is if you're really struggling to figure out what is my value, what am I doing?

Because you're living it.

Or what I've seen is that some people are challenged in the fact that they see that their job duties are just that they're just duties.

There's not really value.

I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

Yes.

But did you know that some other people are supposed to be doing those things and they aren't doing all those things?

So the fact that you are doing your job, maybe you're doing with a smile, maybe you're doing in a pleasant way that makes people want to talk to you.

Maybe people are bringing ideas or their problems to you because you're an ideation person.

I mean, think about the engagement that you have and the things that you're doing.

And to your point, there is going to be a lot more brought to the table.

And if you really are struggling, talk to some of your closest, either friends or your colleagues that you work with.

Talk to regularly.

I think most people have, you know, some friendly people that they're working with.

What do they think are your strengths?

What are they see that you're doing really, really well?

And that might be a good starting point because.

If people have struggled for a long time to share their strengths and their worth and their value and what they're bringing, they may not see it when they look in the mirror.

And so getting some outside perspectives can be really, really helpful.

Yep.

I love it.

And now let's keep on, let's stick with this theme of value.

Because one of the things that I know you've worked with people on is talking about expanding their perspective of value.

Because when you're, for instance, negotiating salary, sometimes people can get just fixated on the number, just the salary, just the comp.

And so can you tell us a little bit about the value?

I guess the benefit of expanding your perspective of what value actually is in these negotiations

Yeah, absolutely.

So when we're thinking about the value and we're talking about people negotiating their salary, negotiating the full compensation package, I am quick to say you are not the value of your salary.

It's important for people to understand they are a separate and distinct person from whatever their salary value is.

However, I do believe that, to some degree, what you're being offered shows how the company is valuing you as an employee and And that's a good indicator for you to understand are they valuing you in the same way you feel you should be valued?

You want to have some alignment in those values, because if you are not aligned, that's where people start feeling unhappy.

And if you're unhappy with how you're being valued compensation-wise, it's going to bleed over to the rest of the work you're doing and to your overall happiness and satisfaction.

And that is not going to make for a really great life.

But when we talk specifically about what all you're going to be negotiating when it comes to a compensation package, all in, there are a lot of different numbers besides salary.

I mean, salary is obviously the biggest, most important for most of us.

Because that is going to be what we consider to be like the guaranteed income to yourself.

But depending on what your job is, your bonus structure could be huge.

I've seen people where their bonus structure could be up to three times their salary or more.

You want to think about what are the benefits?

What are your health insurance?

Nowadays, health and wellness is so expensive.

You want to know that you're not going to be losing money if the program is not.

The cost structure of the benefits program is not similar to what you have.

You could have long-term stock incentives which could make up a huge amount of your retirement or future.

One woman I was working with recently.

We were talking about what her work life is going to be going forward and she would like it to be 52 to 54, but her long-term compensation in her stocks is really vests heavily between 55 and 60.

So how much will you be losing out if you decide to exit working before that time?

So those are the main things.

But you also have other things to think about, like work remote.

What are your working hours?

How much flexibility are there?

So there are multiple areas that you want to think about when it comes to the whole package of what you're negotiating.

And what I usually tell people is you can't Focus on every lever.

You can pull a couple of levers, but you cannot when you're going into negotiation.

You cannot go in with the expectation that you're going to have something that you're asking for on 10 different points.

You know, that is not realistic or sustainable.

And so what are the most important things that you want to identify and what you want to negotiate on?

And pick one two, maybe three if you're in a really hard to place position.

I love that.

I love that, because one of the things that people might be experiencing is a little bit of overwhelm, because they might say all right well, now that I have this more expansive perspective of value, now there's so many options that I can pull on when it comes to these negotiations.

But then, at the same time, this should be really empowering and exciting, because we're recognizing that There are so many options.

We can play around with this in so many different ways.

And the key is to know really what it is that drives you understand your core values, the things that are important to you, but at the same time understanding what's important to the other side and then trying to find opportunities for that interest overlap.

Where are those points of synergy where I'm bringing value, you're bringing value and we create value together?

That means more value for both of us.

Absolutely.

And you can do that whether you're looking for a new job or if you're negotiating a promotion or just a straight raise in your current position.

And some of the compensation capabilities may not be presented to you.

So you have to ask.

And that's another thing that I think women aren't always aware of asking for.

Does this position offer any kind of bigger bonus potential?

Does it have the potential to get stock options?

And if you don't ask, you're not going to get?

Just like, if you don't ask for that raise, there's a hundred percent likelihood that you're not going to get it because you did not ask.

So if they're not presented to you, you may want to ask to see the full picture and then remember, This is the most difficult thing for people when they're going in there and you're asking for something.

You start conjuring up the feelings of the fear of rejection, the fear of judgment, the fear of failure, that if I'm asking for something, if I'm putting myself out there in the way that I may lose the opportunity, or that it's going to be a resounding no, which feels really bad to some people.

And you have to remember that you want to know upfront. where does the value alignment come in?

If you can't get to a meeting of the minds, it's not going to be the long-term place for you anyway, because you feel your value is X, they see it as Y.

Don't Lower your standards to fit to somebody else's box.

We have to stick with that.

I'm not saying that.

You know, Kwame.

Sometimes there are occasions where somebody just needs a job and you've got to accept something that may be less than you think you're worth.

There is a time and place for that.

You have to be aware of if you're in one of those situations.

But if you're not, if you have a good job, if you're fine where you're at and you're just looking to make a big move, knowing up front that that they're not going to bring you to the level that you want.

It may not be the long-term play, right?

You're moving somewhere so that you can find better alignment.

And it's hard for people to understand until you start thinking about it, until you've experienced it.

I have been there.

I can assure you this is a real thing.

80 of the problems that people feel with their job are compounded if they are not being paid what they feel they are worth.

They may not have thought about it.

They may not have identified.

They may not have pulled that number up.

They may not have asked for it or negotiated it, but somewhere inside they're feeling like I am worth more.

They're not offering me more.

And that is bleeding over into everything that they're touching.

Once you start doing the work to get to where you're valued, the way you value yourself, you're just gonna have so much more happiness and satisfaction in your job.

And so if it takes you three more months to find the right job, to negotiate the right amount, it always behooves you to wait.

I love it.

Oh, that is powerful.

I feel like that last point could be an episode by itself.

You know, this is really, really important.

Are you ready to take your business marketing to the next level?

Meet Brevo, the all-in-one marketing CRM platform built to help you connect with customers, boost engagement and grow your business smarter.

With Brevo, you can manage all of your customer interactions in one place.

Nurture leads with their built-in CRM, reach your audience through emails and SMS, and keep them coming back with powerful automations.

But here's where it gets really exciting.

Meet Aura, Brevo's AI assistant.

Aura helps you craft smarter campaigns by suggesting personalized content, optimizing send times and even analyzing performance data to help you improve your strategy in real time.

It's like having a marketing expert on your team 24-7.

And, of course, Brevo offers advanced analytics, seamless integrations and AI-driven personalization.

Everything you need to create multi-channel campaigns that hit the mark every time.

Get started for free today or use the code anything50 to save 50 on starter and standard plans for the first three months of an annual subscription.

Just head to www.brevo.com slash anything and take your marketing further with Brevo and Aura.

The new year always reminds me of the moment that changed my life.

Growing up as a first generation Caribbean American in small town Ohio, I learned early what it felt like to be left out.

That fear of rejection pushed me to become a people pleaser, someone who avoided conflict and said yes when I should have said no.

But everything shifted when I discovered negotiation, because I realized that confidence isn't something you're born with.

It's a skill that you build.

And that belief is what eventually led me to start the American Negotiation Institute.

And here's why I'm telling you this.

A lot of people are walking into the new year with an idea that they've been sitting on for a while, something they know they could build but haven't acted on yet.

The new year isn't magic.

It just gives you permission to start.

If that's you, 2026 is a great year to stop overthinking and start building.

And the smartest move early on is removing friction.

That's why I recommend starting with Shopify.

Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person.

Millions of entrepreneurs have already made the leap from first-time founders to global brands.

You get hundreds of clean, customizable templates to match your brand.

Shopify's built-in AI tools help you to write product descriptions, headlines and even edit product photos, so you're not stuck staring at a blank screen.

Marketing is built in too.

You can create an email and social campaigns that reach customers wherever they scroll.

And as you grow, Shopify grows with you.

More orders, new markets, all managed from one dashboard.

If confidence is a skill you build, execution is too.

And having the right platform makes that a lot easier.

In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify.

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash kwame.

Go to shopify.com slash kwame.

That's shopify.com slash kwame.

Hear your first this new year with Shopify by your side.

And before we go... too.

I want to focus a bit on the point of asking, because it seems so obvious, but consistently we see in studies that this is one of the biggest barriers that people have when it comes to having these tough conversations.

And so a lot of times people might just say well, People are afraid of asking, so all they need to do is ask.

Okay, well, yes, but there's something that's holding people back from doing that.

So, with the time we have left, can you talk about some of those mental barriers that might be holding people back from asking for what it is that they deserve?

Yeah, and I'll start by saying, to your point, it's a simple answer, right?

You can't get without asking.

It's simple.

Just ask.

However, it's simple, but not necessarily easy.

And I always want, I mean, I just really believe that in life, like 90% of the answers are simple.

They're right in front of us.

It does not mean it's easy.

But once we accept and pull in and see that it is simple, then we can get on the road to making the adjustments, to taking the difficult path, to doing the thing.

And so what I think holds people back is number one.

They have a belief that they're worth it, but they don't really, truly deep in their soul, believe that.

So again, it's creating that belief, repetition for ourselves to talk about the things that we've done to promote ourselves, whether it's even just talking to your spouse or your friend, you know.

If you don't feel comfortable, like going into a group team meeting and saying I did this, look how amazing I am.

I killed it in this conversation.

I booked five appointments with clients or whatever it is.

Then, you know, share it with your spouse, share it with a friend.

Get comfortable bragging about yourself, okay?

If you're not gonna pat yourself on the back, who's going to?

And when people see that you are happy and excited about what you're doing, they're going to take that and they're going to share it around the organization.

And that filters up to the higher levels.

And so when you're valuing yourself in the way that you want to be valued, and sharing the things that you've done, then it allows other people to celebrate and share with you.

I think that is the biggest thing holding people back from asking because they just haven't totally bought in themselves.

And if you don't buy in, how are you supposed to buy in?

Get somebody else to see your value and your worth and go to bat for you.

If it's a budgetary constraint?

How are you going to have somebody go to bat for you if you don't truly believe it in your heart and soul as well?

So you've got to believe it and you've got to find a way.

Do the mental work put together, whatever kind of template of a brag book that shows you.

And then you got to own that.

And you've got to allow other people to celebrate you too.

The other thing is I really think it's hard for people to accept that they may get a no.

And what does that mean?

And that feels really harsh to some people.

Even though people like me, who just go out and ask for what they want.

It's not that I don't have Any feelings.

I definitely get my feelings hurt when people tell me no.

Even now, I talk about this sometimes about my husband.

We talk about trips.

And 90% of the time, the first time I bring up a trip, he's going to say no.

And it's always going to hurt my feelings.

But at the end of the day, I'm going to keep asking because I know it's what I need.

I know it's what he needs.

I know it's what we need to do together.

So I keep asking.

But you have to practice that.

You have to get out there and ask.

And people have this fear of rejection sometimes. that it just really is hard for some people.

And so the more that you practice asking for something and you get adjusted to that rejection and then you reshape it.

Sometimes it's not just a rejection.

What information am I taking away from this?

What have they told me?

Maybe there's something.

Maybe it's not today.

Maybe I need to take some feedback.

What was I missing in sharing with them?

It's all the things that like when you're talking about a negotiation.

All information is good information right.

I'm taking it in.

I'm synthesizing.

I'm filtering it through.

How can I come back to the table later and ask for more?

But I think it's that fear of rejection that really holds people back.

And then to another degree, it's a fear of judgment.

I have to see my boss.

I have to see my boss's boss.

What are they going to think about me that I was asking?

Who do I think I am?

It's these kind of thoughts that people start having in their own minds and talk themselves out of just doing the thing which is going in there and making the ask.

Don't talk yourself out of it.

Talk yourself into winning it, okay?

By changing your mindset, by changing your own version of yourself, by changing the thoughts that you're having about yourself.

Because the thoughts that you have becomes actions, it becomes words and then it becomes feelings that other people have towards you.

You are projecting these things, even if you don't think you are.

Oh, that's good.

I love this.

And again, we have to recognize the internal game, because they can listen to this podcast and know exactly what it is that they need to say.

But if we don't address what internally is holding us back from putting these tools into action, then we're not going to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done.

So Crystal, this was great.

Really, really appreciate you coming on the show again.

And before you go, can you please just give the listeners a shout out?

Let them know about the course and how they can get in touch with you.

Absolutely.

It's going to be, it's called salary wise.

It will be launching in the next month or two.

It will be an amazing six part for people that need more.

I do some limited one-on-one coaching with people who really want to take it to the next level, but the course is built out to be super comprehensive.

Like every single thing you need, plus all the tools.

I'm talking mindset work meditations, the full thing.

We've got comparison tools so that you can take an entire job offer and compare it to other job offers.

It's got everything you need.

And if you want in, we also have, I'll be talking about it more on my newsletter.

And then I always talk about this and so much more, giving away a ton of content, a ton of tips, and often even have jobs to share with people on LinkedIn.

I am at Crystal Ware Risk Strategist.

Love this.

Crystal, thank you so much for joining us.

Really appreciate it.

Absolutely.

That was the first part of today's masterclass.

Up.

Next we'll hear from another expert with a different approach, giving you even more strategies to add to your toolkit.

Let's keep it rolling.

Maggie, thanks for joining us again.

Thanks for hosting me.

It's a delight to speak with you as always, Kwame.

Yes, it is a pleasure to have you as always.

So, for the listeners who may have forgotten, and for our new listeners, can you remind them about who you are and what you do?

Absolutely.

My name is Maggie Palmer and I'm the founder of a company called Pep Talk Her, and we're on a mission to close the gender pay gap.

So we want you to get paid more and get promoted much faster.

I love it.

And has anything interesting or new happened for you?

I was like, has anything happened?

I've had a baby.

So I'm getting better at negotiating with a newborn who can't really communicate.

So that's been interesting.

Congratulations.

Yes.

So that's really exciting.

And listeners, this is incredible.

Hugo must be the best behaved baby in the world, because he's in the room and you can't hear him, which is incredible.

He's meant to be napping.

Long may it continue.

Exactly.

Well, when we have you on, Maggie, we always talk about careers.

We talk about salary and everything like that.

And that's really important.

And people might say, well, why are we having Maggie back on to talk about the same thing?

And the reality is things have changed.

And so I want people to be able to have the most updated information possible.

But before we get into those tips, there's something really cool that I want you to tell us uh, the listeners about that you have going on in your company.

Yeah, so a lot's changed.

So we're going to chat about how you can negotiate successfully in the current economic climate with inflation, so we're going to get to that.

But i wanted to give a shout out to anyone who's listening, who really wants to be earning more money or who's really looking to get promoted right, so we run, twice a year, a free career challenge and it's kicking off uh, in about a week, so we would love to have you join us, along with the American Negotiation Institute team as well.

Peptalkercom forward slash A-N-I.

And you can join up to join the free five-day training.

I'm running the live training myself to help support you.

So we would love to see as many of your listeners there.

This is great.

And yes, listeners, live training. for the price of a podcast.

Okay.

So make sure you check that out.

We'll put a link in the description so you can get access to that.

So Maggie, appreciate it.

Thank you for sharing.

Yeah, the Know Your Worth Challenge, because it's funny, you know, like it's so interesting.

I talk to professionals all day and one of the things that I hear a lot and I know you hear this as well with the work that you do is people forget how awesome they are and how valuable they are.

And that's really what the Know Your Worth Challenge is all about is reminding people you have value, you are contributing to your team and you want to make sure that you're compensated for that.

Absolutely.

And you know, when we think about negotiation skills and getting the value that you deserve, it starts with knowing your own value.

Right.

We have to understand the value that we bring to the table, and we're not going to be able to be effective unless we can articulate that in a way that is convincing to other people.

But first, convincing to ourselves as well.

So this is really important.

Yeah, and it's interesting, isn't it?

Because I think, a lot of the time, we think that the employer has all the power when it comes to negotiation.

But actually for great staff.

As you and I know, running our own businesses, we want to retain top people.

We want them to be happy.

We want them to jump out of bed and be stoked to work hard for us.

So the flip side of that is we actually want to compensate people well so that they feel that they're fairly paid, so they feel excited and they feel that they're sort of being valued where they need to in market.

So don't forget that you actually do have power in these conversations as well.

Absolutely.

This is great.

Well, yes, listeners, check out that link in the description, sign up.

And again, it's a free webinar workshop that Maggie's going to host.

And we're going to give you a little bit of a sample of some of the brilliance of Maggie Palmer in this episode.

And so, yes, let's talk about what's changed since last time.

I think it's been about a year since you've been on the pod to talk about salary negotiation and just career advancement in general.

What are the main things that we need to pay attention to?

Yeah, I want everyone listening today to just kind of reflect, like what's happened to you and your career and what's happened to your pay packet?

And has that pay been going up?

Because if it hasn't, I've got some bad news.

If you haven't had a raise in the last 12 months, then you've been sliding backwards, right?

Because it's no secret that inflation is bananas right now, more than 8 for those of us who are based in the United States.

And that's a problem because basically that's slicing and dicing your salary and taking the value away from you, right?

So you need to be getting at least 8 or 9 increase in your salary this year just to keep up with the fact that the cost of living is rising at an incredibly fast pace right now, right?

So you know, inflation it sucks because when you go to the grocery store, as we've all noticed, it's getting expensive, but it's also, you know, really slicing away at the value of your salary as well.

So I want to make sure that everyone is really cognizant of that and conscious of the fact that you've got to be asking for a raise every year, particularly right now because of inflation.

Yeah, definitely.

And I think for the people who are employers, listening to this is really important, because you're a business owner.

I'm a business owner.

We have employees and we are running and gunning all the time.

We're very busy all the time.

And it just is a reminder.

Again, for me, it's funny being on this side of the table now.

Right.

It's a reminder for me that.

A lot of times as an employer, it's easy for me to just forget about these types of things.

And so really we have to take responsibility for our own careers if we are the employee to raise awareness and have these conversations, because a lot of times management, it just might slip their minds.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that's the thing, you know, I think in any career, it's very easy to blame people, isn't it?

At work, it's like, oh, my boss really sucks.

Oh, my colleague really sucks.

HR sucks, or whatever the case may be, you know, but actually at some point you've got to really take ownership of your career.

So if you're not being paid fairly, if you feel like you're undervalued right now which I hear from thousands of women everywhere in the pep talker community every year

If that's how you feel, I want to first just commiserate with you because it really sucks.

If you don't love your work, it's really tough.

But at the same time, you can't expect your boss to fix everything for you, right?

Your boss might have 10 direct reports, five direct reports, 50 direct reports.

They've got a lot going on, right?

They've got their own life as well.

So you actually have to make sure that you're steering your career and taking control of it yourself.

And that means raising. how much you're paid every year.

That means having that tough conversation, right?

It means negotiating for your salary.

It means talking to potentially other employers about maybe changing roles.

If you don't feel like the money that you're being paid is in line with your experience and is in line with the market right now, especially given the inflation figures that we're seeing.

Definitely.

And, like you said it, it kind of ties into what we were talking about before, when we were talking about the um the the, the challenge that you were.

That's in the description of the episode, right.

Because we have to know what our worth is, but we also have to take responsibility for rise raising this awareness, having these types of conversations.

And again, The actual strategy behind these conversations isn't usually the toughest part.

It's usually overcoming that barrier.

And so it might be fear.

It might be a lack of self-worth, issues with your personal value.

But then it also might be just the fact that you say, this is not my fault.

This is their fault.

They're to blame.

Like you said, it's easy to blame.

But a lot of times, especially if we're just blaming and commiserating with our buddies, we're not changing anything.

And so we have to shift from focusing on faults to focusing on responsibility.

All right, the situation isn't great.

I want to be paid more.

I deserve to be paid more.

Great.

So we need to take responsibility and then have those conversations.

Hello, my friends.

Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.

Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better difficult conversations?

At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills.

Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands-on training for your team, we've got you covered.

Don't just negotiate, master the art with the American Negotiation Institute.

Click the link in the description to find out more.

Elevate, negotiate, and succeed.

Absolutely.

And I think the other thing is one of the things that we do at Pep Talker is we're very focused on closing the gender pay gap.

And I want to just acknowledge that the gender pay gap does exist and that that's not our fault either, right?

So we know that there's, depending on what country our listeners are in.

Today it's 15 to 20 gender pay gap for women.

And we know that that gap is significantly worse for women of colour.

So I just want to acknowledge that.

And that pay gap is not our fault, right?

So I really hope that we can get to a point and I hope that we're on this podcast and if it's all gone and it's no longer an issue although I doubt that's the case, because the United Nations reckons we're looking at about 100 years before we close that gap.

But in the meantime, before we can close that gap, before we wait for, you know, big business and government to catch up with the policies that need to be put in place,

In the meantime, there are things that we can do.

And to your point, there are levels of personal responsibility that we can take to look to move from fault and from blame towards change and the change that you want to see in your career and the life that you want to lead.

I want you all to be paid more.

I want you to get promoted to the level where you should be, Because when you get there you'll be learning more and you'll be growing and you'll just be so much happier and you'll be contributing more to the business and the team as well.

100%.

And Maggie, let's talk about this too.

And this might be a little bit off of the typical directionality of a podcast episode focused on salary negotiation because i think, especially when you think about the the, the main goal of your company, the reason why it exists, which is to to get rid of the gender pay gap, that's really important.

And then so, for the individuals listening to this episode yes negotiate, get what you deserve, and we're going to talk about specifically how to negotiate in these times.

We're updating those skill sets for these types of conversations, But at the same time, now that we have awareness of what those pay gap is in the workplace, as you rise through the ranks of your company, you can keep an eye on that.

Now you can be an advocate, you can be an ally, and you can take these exact same negotiation skills that you're using to advocate for yourself and advocate on behalf of others, on behalf of the group, to create the structural change within organizations that we need to see in order to eliminate the wage gap too.

It's so important, the point that you make, right?

Because everyone listening today has the capacity to help create that change, right?

To create a more equitable workplace, to create a world in which the gender pay gap no longer exists, right.

I was at an event recently with Julia Gillard, the former Australian Prime Minister, and she said something which I think was really interesting.

She said, With every wave of change comes the inevitable backwash as well.

And I think that's interesting, right?

Like we are making progress and we know that we're sort of inching closer to a more equitable world.

We're seeing more women in leadership.

We're seeing more people of colour moving into more senior roles in the businesses, as they absolutely should be.

And yet with that, you know, there's a price that a lot of people pay for that progress, right?

And it means that sometimes you're going to have to walk away from companies where you don't feel like you're being paid or treated fairly or equitably, or where you see behavior that doesn't align with your values.

And if we say nothing and if we do nothing when this happens, it's just going to perpetuate it, right?

And it's going to continue to be unfair and unjust for others.

And so I do want to sort of give a bit of a call to arms, I suppose, for everyone listening like take on the role of stepping into a place of courage and calling things out in the workplace when you see things that are happening that are unfair and that are inequitable.

And when you have the capacity to hire and when you're influencing payroll, ask for there to be pay transparency.

Ask for there to be a level setting of what are people paid in different roles within the business.

We have the capacity to enforce And to sort of you know, encourage our companies and our employers to create that change quicker than maybe they would if we just sat back and just allowed the status quo to continue.

Yes, I appreciate this little aside because it wasn't little at all.

It was very, very important.

And I think if we can just get one person to say, you know what, there is something I can do.

You know what, maybe it's worth it negotiating into that next level, because that next level of authority gives me more influence over these types of challenges too.

So this is really important.

And so let's get into the actual X's and O's of this.

Let's talk about the strategy.

When we're thinking about the major challenges that people are going to have when it comes to these salary discussions today.

What are the things that people need to watch out for?

So here's the thing that I hear a lot when people are saying oh, you know, I'm really nervous about negotiating, like my salary.

I don't want to be seen as high maintenance, all those kinds of things.

The thing is that if you prepare for these conversations, you can actually map out in advance what's going to happen.

Right.

Because in any salary negotiation, there's really only three options.

Right.

There's they can say yes.

They can say no, or they can say maybe, right?

So there's really only the three options and you can actually prepare in advance.

And I always say to people, there's three ingredients for successful negotiation.

And the most important one, even though it's not very sexy, it's not very exciting.

The most important ingredient for a successful negotiation is preparation.

It's preparing in advance.

And if you have a salary negotiation conversation this afternoon and you prepare at lunchtime, Like if you're asking for 500 bucks extra a year okay, that's probably enough time.

But if you're looking to get a 5000 increase, an 8000 increase, a 20000 increase or more which we see a lot within the pet talker community if you're looking for a significant jump, then you'd better put in significant preparation right.

Because you've got to make sure that it's not just, oh, I want more money.

It's putting the meat on the bone.

Why do you want more money?

What have you contributed?

How have you added to the team culture?

How have you added to the team's bottom line?

How have you made the business more profitable this year?

And, you know, we've spoken about this before, Kwame, but one of the reasons why we built the Pep Talker app was for this exact reason, because I can't tell you what I had for breakfast last week.

And it's not just because I have a newborn at home.

It's because our brains can only retain so much information, right?

And so you probably, and let me know listeners, let Kwame and I know, on social media, send us a DM or tag us and let us know.

Can you remember the exact project that you did that was a huge success?

Because if you can't, you actually need to be tracking those successes more regularly, right?

And that's what the Pet Talker app helps you do is it helps you remember in the moment, in the week, the successes that you've had.

So we actually say that you should be reflecting at least once a week on what you've contributed.

Did you organize an internship program?

Did you add an extra sale to the bottom line of the business?

Did you organize the holiday party?

Whatever it is, write it down now, because chances are you're like me and you won't be able to remember in 12 months time when you're having your review.

So if you reflect once a week, even if you miss a couple of weeks, if you reflect once a week, ostensibly you could be walking into your next review conversation with 40 to 50 things that you've done that you're really proud of.

And then it's very easy to say to your boss hey listen, I've done ABC and XYZ and I've contributed in this percentage or in this revenue line or whatever.

These are the reasons why I'd really love to discuss my compensation moving forward, because you've got the reasons to sort of back up your case and your argument for that increase in salary.

Oh, this is so good.

And I know, Maggie, you're like, I know I do this all the time.

That's what helps.

I help thousands of women around the world.

I know it's good.

But this is great.

And everybody, these are the kind of friends you need to have.

The friends who just casually drop that they have an app in the middle of a conversation like it's nothing.

But yes, Maggie has an app and it's brilliant.

And actually Maggie, since we've been talking, I actually started to compile my own lists of wins, because I think it's beneficial.

Oh, yeah.

So it's really beneficial for a couple of reasons.

Like you said, it's beneficial because you can say, oh, why am I awesome?

Let me tell them this is the reason why I deserve a raise.

Right.

Yes.

Very clearly.

And so it clearly helps with the external negotiations.

But I think the thing that people often overlook is that it helps with the internal negotiation as well.

Because when I'm down, when I'm feeling a little bit sad or insecure or whatever, because that happens to everybody.

Sometimes you forget how awesome you are.

Yeah.

And so anytime anybody says something nice to me, I put it in a note document that says compliments and brag box.

And I will just read through that until I feel better.

And so this is something that you use to convince yourself, as well as the other party, of why you deserve what you are asking for.

And I love that you do that.

And thank you for sharing that because, you know, it is, and we all have bad days, right?

We all have bad days in life, at work, you know, maybe you have a fight with your partner or your best friend or whatever.

And you're like, oh, you know, am I even any good?

What am I even doing?

Can I even do this job?

The client said no, or, you know, my boss had to reprimand me.

Oh my gosh.

And you spiral, right?

Like we spiral as humans.

And so what we know is though, the way that the brain works, it's quite cheeky, right?

And so there's these neurons that fire in our brain.

And so if we are in a regular cycle of spiraling, thinking that we're no good or really taking constructive criticism to heart, we can spiral in a negative way right, and that really erodes our self-confidence right, and how we're perceived um, in a confident sense, by others, and that's one of the things that we talk about in the know your worth challenge as well.

What we actually want to do is strengthen the neural pathways when you're not spiraling.

And we want to strengthen those pathways to your point, Kwame.

When you feel good about yourself, when you're receiving a compliment when you've excelled at work, when you've received compliments and praise from your boss and clients and colleagues.

Those are the parts of the brain that we want to strengthen.

And I always harp on about this, but it's kind of like if I wanted massive biceps, I'd have to go to the gym and flex those muscles every day.

And nothing's going to happen the first week.

I'm going to be a bit sore, but nothing's going to happen.

The first month, I might be a bit toned.

And then maybe then I have biceps a bit more like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

But it takes time.

You've got to strengthen that muscle.

And it's the same thing with our mindset around how confident we feel in and of ourselves.

And how confident we feel about our ability to contribute positively to the team and to our job.

Because I'm sure everyone listening has got someone at work that they know, who's very confident and who holds themselves with a lot of swagger right.

And who really backs themselves.

And like.

The reality is that when you are confident and when you believe in yourself and when you know you're adding value, the way that you are perceived in a negotiation goes up.

And it's a lot harder to say no to someone who's got the data from the app, who's got the confidence and who's really constructively engaging in a conversation about how you can find a mutual agreement on salary going forward, versus negotiating with someone who's like, oh yeah, please can I have a raise.

You know, like even the tone of my voice, then it's not very, you know, endearing.

So all of these things, when you put them together, they really do contribute to the success or failure of a negotiation.

I love it.

This is so powerful.

And that is why I love having you on the show all the time.

So I appreciate it, Meggy.

And before you go, please remind the listeners, remind the listeners about you, your company in general and again about the awesome opportunity you have coming up.

Yeah, well, I am just so, I love this podcast.

I'm a bit of a nerd and I'm obsessed.

I'm an obsessive listener.

So shout out to anyone else listening who's in the same boat.

Please say hi to Kwame and I on LinkedIn.

We are on the social medias as well.

I'm at peptalkher.com.

My name is Maggie Palmer.

Please find me on LinkedIn and say hi as well.

But yeah, Pep Talker is my company.

You can check out the app on the Apple App Stores and the Android App Stores, Pep Talker, H-E-R.

And this is super exciting.

And this is for all of the the podcast listeners.

Today we've got a free five-day Know Your Worth challenge, which I am personally live coaching you in how to know your worth, so that you walk into your negotiations with confidence and with the skills and the scripts that you need and the playbooks to get a successful outcome.

I want you to get a 10K raise.

I'm going to show you how to do that.

During the five days, it's totally free, no strings attached, etc.

So you can check it out, peptalker.com forward slash ANI.

Yeah, so I'm excited to see you in there.

We've had a lot of ANI listeners and members of the community come through the program and they've gotten things like you know, 15 pay raises.

20% pay raises, 17 grand extra.

We've actually had three, would you believe it?

Three 100000 plus pay increases, which is pretty wild.

But we're very proud of that.

But you know, typically people see at least a 5K raise and then anything up from there kind of you know, spans that spectrum.

So I'm excited to help support your really, you know, crush the career for the rest of the year.

Love it.

Maggie, thank you so much for joining us.

Really appreciate it.

You've just heard one powerful perspective and now we're moving on to the next, a fresh voice with a new angle on the same challenge, so you can keep expanding your skills.

Let's dive in.

Ben, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks so much.

It's great to be here.

Yeah, it's great to have you, man.

So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Happy to.

So my name is Ben Cook.

I'm CEO of a negotiation startup called Riva HQ.

What we do is salary negotiations.

So basic premise is that two thirds of people today don't negotiate salary.

Main reason why is combination of they don't know how and negotiation is an intimidating, scary process for the majority of people.

But the unfortunate fact is by not negotiating, people put themselves on a slower career trajectory.

They settle for less today.

That impacts their raise tomorrow and so on and so forth throughout the course of their career.

It ends up costing the average individual about a million dollars in foregone wages, or collectively about one hundred and eighty eight billion dollars.

That gets left on the table by Americans every day.

That's what Reva does.

We try to solve that problem, try to help end the pay gap through ending what we call a hidden negotiation gap.

And I came to Reva by way of some research I was doing at Harvard Business School on social media negotiation how to negotiate in the digital age, how negotiation strategies shift when you move into a digital ecosystem.

And I brought that work through a bunch of lecturing and publishing at HBS and working with the US Congress to try to break some of the gridlock that gets in the way of making popular bipartisan deals, thanks to a lot of very vocal, very angry, but in the minority people on social media.

Wow, this is quite impressive, quite impressive.

So I appreciate you joining us, because the work that you're doing is very important on a number of different levels.

And so listeners, Ben and I were chatting beforehand and we're trying to figure out what angle do we go?

Because the salary negotiation with Riva would be the obvious one.

And then also thinking about we're coming up on, you know, as always, political season here in the US, but elections are coming up.

Right.

So we have to have those those negotiations.

That's important, too.

But what we started to realize is that most people are late, understand the importance of negotiation, that it's an important skill.

But still that logical understanding isn't enough to get them to take the step to actually negotiate.

Right.

And so today we're going to talk about the mindset of a negotiator and what that really means, and how we can improve our mindset in a way that will then improve our ability to show up and actually have these negotiations effectively.

So Ben, when you think about mindset and you think about all of the work that you've done in these various industries, what would you say is the biggest revelation that you've realized through this process?

For you,

Such a good question.

I think when I was working at HBS Uh, surrounded by other negotiators, talking to people who negotiate all day, every day, you know, I was just.

I'm a negotiation nerd.

Right.

I loved it.

They all loved it.

We're all like negotiation is the best thing ever.

Who wouldn't it, you know, it's, it's playing chess, but in the real world, it's, you know, all of the complexities, all the value creation that could come out of it.

I'm a fan.

It's, it's what I love.

Um, it wasn't until I started doing Riva and trying to reach that group.

We call them.

The negotiation has a tent and it's exactly what you described.

Right, these are people who um, it's not that they don't know that negotiation is important.

I mean, there's been such a cultural mindset shift, particularly as it relates hey, gap and uh and you know, being able to advocate for yourself effectively.

There's been so much cultural chatter about how it's really important to negotiate, but when it comes down to actually getting in that room and having that conversation, two thirds of people don't do it.

So that was, I think, a big lesson for me to try and understand what that was, what's driving that.

So we've done about 5,000, we've had about 5,000 clients come through Riva now.

And I think the biggest thing that I've come to learn is that for most people, negotiation feels like conflict.

Negotiate.

They have this mental image in their mind of you know two people sitting on opposite sides of the table and you know making steely eye contact, and you know firm handshakes until one person blinks.

And now you know negotiation over.

Um, it feels like an argument.

People hate arguing, people hate conflict.

And the last thing they want to do, particularly when it comes to like, a job negotiation either you're going to have to use a raise and you're going to have to do this with your boss.

So that sucks or.

It's a new job offer, and you just got out of weeks spent looking for a new job.

You're nervous.

You're excited.

This is, you know, this whole new chapter in your life.

And the last thing you want to do is what feels like.

Put all that in jeopardy by suddenly introducing conflict.

So I think most people have that mental image where negotiation is an argument.

For me, that's literally couldn't be further from the truth.

Negotiation is about two people who have a shared goal.

We always say this with hiring, right?

At the end of the day, your shared goal is that you want to work together.

Whoever you're talking to, right?

They want to retain you.

They want you on their team.

Everyone's goal at the end of this conversation is for you to be teammates.

So that's not a conflict situation.

That's two people sitting on the same side of the table jointly problem solving, coming up with creative ways to get around the roadblocks that are getting in the way of A really exciting next chapter.

A bunch of value creation coming together.

So I think that's you know.

For me, like the biggest mindset shift is just moving from thinking on negotiation is a big argument to negotiation is about working together to overcome the barriers that stand in the way of what you both want to do.

Absolutely.

Well said.

Well said, because you're exactly right.

It's a collaborative problem solving endeavor.

And I know for me, whenever people say, well, what do you how do you appear in a negotiation?

How do you carry yourself in a negotiation?

I say, listen to my podcast.

I mean, the conversation, like the tone I'm having with you, like this is how my negotiations feel.

And I think we blow this way out of proportion.

And so I think a lot of listeners would say, OK, listen, I like this Ben guy.

All right.

I understand what he's saying.

Logically, again, it makes sense.

Now you've had the opportunity to work with and serve over 5000 clients with Riva, which is just spectacular.

Kudos to you on that.

And when you actually get into the minds of your clients.

I'm assuming and I might be wrong on this Ben, so you correct me if I'm wrong that there's still a little bit of a block sometimes where you can share that information and say this should be problem solving.

You're working toward the same goal.

And they might have an intellectual understanding of what that means.

But then there's still a barrier.

What is that barrier?

You know, I think there is this it's the taking the plunge moment, right?

People again, like they hear me, say that yeah yeah yeah, this should be problem solving.

But it is literally that moment when you press send on the email, when you walk into the room and there you are and oh my God, I'm suddenly going to have to go through with this.

Um, you know, so this comes up a lot, right?

People, uh, people will tell them, okay, your best way to build leverage, right?

Is to get your existing employer to want to retain you, and maybe a couple of competing offers create a multi-party bidding war.

Then it's great, right?

Because you don't have to be the bad guy saying, pay me more money.

You're saying, I don't know, right?

Like I'm really, I really want to stay.

I really see great opportunities in this new company.

Help me make this decision a little bit easier.

Right, people get that intellectually, but then there's that moment where, oh god, i gotta actually do the thing, and i think i think people really build it up as this thing that you either can do or you can't right.

It's either this, you know, there are people who can negotiate and they're people like me.

And that just feels so anathema to the way I lived my whole life.

I never negotiate, right?

So I think there's two things that kind of get through to people.

The first is, yeah, they say, oh, I never negotiate.

And you're like well listen, are you a parent?

You have a kid?

I guarantee you negotiate all the time constantly, every day.

Do you have a partner, a spouse boyfriend, girlfriend?

Guarantee there's some negotiation right, because again, it's two people with the same goal, live harmoniously together, raise a happy kid, etc etc.

But they're roadblocks in the way and so how you navigate around those roadblocks together is negotiation.

I mean, okay, maybe it doesn't take place in a boardroom, but it's the exact same skill set.

The other thing is this mentality of you know, there are people who can negotiate and there are people who can't.

One of the things we tell Reva clients all the time is you know, I know you're scared, you're nervous, you're intimidated to do this today, but developing this skill set is going to serve you for literally decades to come.

This is not the sort of thing where you either are born as a negotiator or you're not.

It's a muscle.

The more comfortable you get with it, the more you do it, the more you show yourself.

You prove actually in your own lived experience that negotiating doesn't backfire.

People don't actually yell at you.

You don't get kicked out immediately when you go talk to your boss.

Actually, most of the time, people respect you more.

It leads to more durable relationships.

It leads to more trust because it's based on a foundation of openness and honesty and saying, here are the ways here, here are my roadblocks, right?

Here are the things that are getting in the way for me.

I want to overcome them.

That's the foundation for a really healthy relationship.

And when people actually have that felt experience, when they take that first plunge, it gets easier and easier and easier over time.

So yeah, yeah, it's a, It's a muscle.

It's not like a, a, you know, born with you one day, you know, you either are, you aren't.

Exactly.

Well said.

And I like what you said.

Let me do a little bit of a summary.

So the fear actually taking the plunge.

Right.

Because we all have that fear.

But then there is like an elevated level of fear when it's like, oh, it's do or die right now.

This is when you do it.

And then people can say yay or nay.

And they often say nay at that point.

And I think one of the things that's tough is that nothing's really forcing you to do it.

It's an option.

And especially in the salary negotiation context.

It would be much easier for the employer to give you an offer and you just accept it.

That just makes their job easier.

They save money and save time and effort.

So they're not going to say, That's just not how it happens.

So we miss out on those opportunities because we don't make that decision.

The other thing is talking about the mindset of.

Let's go to that great book called Mindset by Carol Dweck, where she talks about the differences between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset, where you it's almost like the distinction between believing in skills versus talents.

So somebody who has a fixed mindset, they say it's a talent.

Either you have it or you don't.

And if you're not a born negotiator, you're not going to become a negotiator.

It's done.

Determined at birth.

But with the growth mindset, you realize, no, this is a skill that I can develop with time.

And so for me, I'm a recovering people pleaser.

I used to be deathly afraid of difficult conversations and that's why i built this whole company, because once i went to law school and discovered negotiation and i learned that i could actually get better at it, i became addicted and i just wanted to be able to share it with as many people as possible, because you can improve.

But i think if we stay in that fixed mindset too long, it becomes a rigid identity where it's not like I'm afraid of negotiating, but I can improve my skills and confidence and then effectively negotiate.

They say, I never negotiate.

And they state it as if it is a stable and like static identity.

I am one who does not negotiate.

And so when we think about identity, a lot of times we make identity based decisions.

What does a person like me do in a situation like this?

Well, I'm a I'm a guy who doesn't negotiate.

What are you going to do?

I'm not going to negotiate.

Right.

And so I think it really holds us back and we don't realize how much we are holding ourselves back in these conversations.

Totally.

I, I, I, I love that.

And you're totally right.

Right.

This is, this is textbook Carol Dweck, right?

If you have that growth mindset, like, yes, this is not just a core part of my, uh, you know, identity.

This is not, uh, there's no gene that correlates, you know, yes, you are a negotiator.

No, you're not.

Um, but you know, it's really funny.

And what you just said, right?

So you have this experience.

You went to law school.

You were like, Oh, I can negotiate.

It's really funny to me how many people you would think, based on their job, based on their experience, how many of them still have that hesitancy.

We get so many clients who negotiate every day on behalf of their employer.

But when it comes to advocating for themselves, oh, God, no way.

Couldn't do it.

It's really funny how people will just put on those sort of identity based ats and then make identity based decisions.

It actually brings me to one of the uh, the the things I'm involved with on the side, which is this program to help train Congress how to negotiate more effectively.

So we we work with congressional members and their staff on, you know, senior staff that are the legislative aides doing most of the work behind the scenes.

Um, on basic negotiation techniques.

And you know, when you made that comment about identity based decisions that i think that really stuck out to me, because so much of the gridlock there is, people making those identity-based decisions.

They're saying, oh well, i am a democrat or i am a republican from this district and um, you know, based on that identity, i'm gonna say yes or no, categorically to, to any piece of legislation that looks like this.

When you get them,

So the exercise we do is we'll try to get, we assign little negotiation exercises and we assign Republicans to play Democrat roles and we assign Democrats to play Republican roles.

So they are forced to stop thinking about these issues in the way that their identity naturally, would lead them to think.

And instead they start looking at the negotiation process as, I mean, we make it a game, right?

It's, it's a little fun exercise.

It's scored.

You get points, for you know, winning on this issue versus winning on that issue, making trade-offs.

When they start thinking that way, they do so much better.

They have these huge breakthroughs and everyone ends up way better off because they were able to overcome those roadblocks.

Work together, accomplish something.

I mean, They end up better off.

Their constituents end up better off.

The country ends up better off.

But it's getting out of that.

Here I am.

This is my fixed identity.

I'm going to make a decision accordingly and instead think about you.

Know, a huge part of negotiation is empathy.

And it's understanding the other person's point of view.

What's important to them?

What's important to me?

Mirror those things together.

Hey, there's a lot of overlap.

How do we make that happen?

Um, so i just i, i i love that, you know it's uh, the more you can think holistically about yourself, about the other party, empathize with both, think creatively, you know, and not just go.

Yeah i'm, i'm x, i'm not a negotiator, i'm a you know democrat, i'm a republican, end of story, exactly.

And i think and i'd be interested to get your thoughts on this um, because i think it's, it's It's okay to make identity based decisions if you're using the right identity, but I think a lot of times we use the wrong identity, like it's a limiting, unnecessarily limiting identity.

So for a given example.

So I want to make sure I'm.

What I think about is, If I am experiencing weakness in some way, I want to make sure there's some kind of mechanism that helps me to still make the right decision.

So I recognize if I'm super emotional, I'm not thinking clearly.

And so there has to be something in place that kind of overrides that.

So I'll give a kind of a fun example that pulls us out of the negotiation context.

So I've been I've been traveling a lot, like for the next month and a half.

Like there's a trip every single week and airport food is not healthy anymore. okay, not healthy.

And I often don't schedule my days very well where I'm like rushing to the airport late.

And then like, like it's my first time every single time.

And now I'm starving in an airport.

And so I go past like these, these greasy spots and I'm like, that oil smells delicious.

Let me go get me some of that.

And so I slow down and I say, want me to think like an athlete, what would an athlete eat?

If an athlete were in this situation, what food choice would they make?

So yeah, I went past the fried food, walked 10 extra minutes, got a healthy burrito bowl type of thing.

Right.

And so that that identity that I wanted to embrace helped me.

So, when I think about the difficult conversations I have sometimes with my wife, for example, I am I'm not Kwame the lawyer.

Whitney has told me she does not enjoy Kwame the lawyer.

What does Kwame the loving husband do?

Or when I'm with my kids, what does Kwame the patient father do?

Now in the workplace, what does Kwame the negotiator do?

If I see myself as a negotiator, what are the things that a negotiator would do?

A negotiator, first of all, would negotiate let's just start there.

Second of all, the negotiator would empathize, because i'm not going to go in here just completely oriented toward myself and my own goals.

A negotiator would start off by empathizing and understanding the other side.

Right, a negotiator would actually think about how we could potentially make this a win-win.

Consider your goals and move in that direction.

And so i think we have to think about what.

Think really critically about our mindset as it relates to our identity, which minds, which identities are serving us in the moment and which ones are limiting us, and then how we could flex it as necessary.

I love that.

You know this I was mentioning, and so when I first took over Reva we we, we built this fully automated product and it worked.

It was great, right?

People would use this sort of a chat bot experience and it would devise their negotiating strategy.

Write up a customized email for them, send it off, send back.

Really, really impressive from a technological standpoint.

But again, What it didn't do was meet people where they are, empathize with them.

And then I think the biggest thing, so what we moved to was a, was a coaching based product.

The biggest thing that the coaches do is they connect your negotiation to your identity, to your personal goals.

And so, you know, so many people come in and they're like, every client, I don't want to be greedy.

Like I feel so money grubbing.

I'm asking for more money.

I'm so uncomfortable doing it.

I don't want to be greedy, but you know, and it really is, uh, you know, it's really hard.

You know my uh, my partner and I are wanting to start a family and we have certain financial goals we need to hit before we get there.

Or, um, my kids are entering high school.

I see college tuition coming.

I know that's going to be really expensive.

I want to provide for them.

Or even, you know, some of the like cute ones, right?

You know, I want to propose, but I got to save up for the ring, right?

You connect it to here are these personal goals, right?

Those are not selfish, greedy, money-grubbing goals.

Wanting to be able to put your kids through college.

That is not you being.

You know some kind of like greedy jerk right.

This is about you being, and this is what I loved and what you just said, right?

You are the father, you are the mother, you are providing for the people you care about.

You are providing for uh, you know, the opportunity to get married, whatever it may be, whatever your personal goal is.

When you connect it back to that,

And then the coach can remind you that that's what you told me in our first session.

So don't back down now.

Right.

This isn't about you.

This isn't about you know.

Oh, I'm trying to advance my career.

Do this, get a little bit more cash so I can buy something nice.

I mean, that's fine, too.

But so often you know, when you remind someone of who they are, what their goals are, and you know what that identity is.

That's going to serve them in that moment and you can reinforce it.

That's when you get people to take the leap.

So, yeah. what would an athlete do right what would kwame the father do in this situation he's going to stand up and advocate for himself so he can put money in the banks put his kids through school stuff like that you know honoring that human element of negotiation that's what really helped reba go from this great product that worked that we couldn't give away for free to you know now 5000 negotiations and counting all the millions we've put in people's pockets it's uh it's it's been a really cool process just to watch how meeting people where they are it's almost a negotiation with the client right um it's uh it's it's been a really fun journey to watch that's incredible i think it's a great example too like everything that you said and i'll just an aside i'm just mind-blowing that it didn't take off i think that's just so fascinating right but again we are negotiation nerds we see the world a little bit differently i think eventually you know 10 15 years down the line your time will come with that element of the business but until then human to human contact that's what is what's working and that's great to see And I think when we when we think about the identity, because you brought up a really good point, and I think a lot of people in the audience could either personally identify with this or they can at least identify somebody else who could identify with this.

They can negotiate really effectively on behalf of others.

But not on behalf of themselves.

And I remember talking to in a presentation and I knew the woman from before she asked the question.

And she's like, yeah, I'm not a negotiator talking about the identity.

But yeah, I just I just don't negotiate for myself.

And I said, so you have kids, right?

She said yes, and i said would you have trouble standing up for your kids if they needed help?

Oh no, i definitely stand up for your kids.

I was like all right.

So i want you to pretend like you're negotiating on behalf of your kids.

You're not negotiating for you, you're negotiating for them and i want you to envision them throughout the negotiation.

You're doing this on behalf of your children.

And so triggering that just being able to envision like somebody tangible that they cared about, that they were advocating for, helped them to get over it.

I love that.

I might steal that.

I'll tell our coaches to do the visualization exercise beforehand.

But, you know, it really is true.

And I think you know there are lots of those sort of you know approaches like that that can help people with the mindset.

Right, you know there's commitment devices right, i have already gotten the job offer and like i gotta tell someone something here.

Either i'm leaving or i'm staying or i don't know.

But you know, here i am, i gotta do it.

Um, this actually comes up a lot people will get a new job and then they're terrified to tell their boss you're like listen, like gonna have to have that conversation, but uh yeah, even just um Well, yeah.

Yeah.

Like visualizing what you're doing it for writing down.

Like I, this is an exercise we do, um, for anchoring, right.

We will get people use a framework called wish want walk away.

So what do you wish you would get out of this negotiation?

What do you realistically want?

I mean, you know, I wish that they would give me a McLaren on the side, right.

Um, but something realistic that you wish for what you realistically think you want to get out of it and where you would genuinely walk away. actually physically writing those down usually have them like take an actual pen and paper and write them down then when they get into the negotiation the first number comes out and it's below their walk away right they have already gone through that process they've already done that thing they've written down i will walk away if it is less than x that sticks with them it really does it's uh you can actually you know anchoring is so powerful you can anchor yourself by writing a number down and uh so yeah i love those little moments where you can use what feel like these little tricks almost but they actually make a huge difference because again you're talking people right on the margins because people know they should negotiate and just need that little push to say yes i actually i'm going to stand up for myself i am going to walk away if it's less than that number i'll actually give a slightly tangential example here too um this is because a lot of what we do is trying to help people who for various systematic reasons end up disproportionately unlikely to negotiate this is women minority groups um you know people who look like me white man pretty confident negotiating right i'm used to to saying i want i want this and having the world be like yes sir But so one of the things we've been really conscious of is, you know, not just having that mindset, particularly.

So the example I have in mind is gender in negotiation.

And it is true that women can be disproportionately subjected to backlash for being seen as too pushy.

But.

There's some great research coming out of the Kennedy School.

One of our advisors, Hannah Riley Bowles, has done some phenomenal work looking at things that women can do that counteract that bias.

So really simple trick.

We advise almost every one of our female clients to do this.

You blame negotiating on someone else who told you you should.

Because what that does is.

It frames it as you being such a good team player that you listen to the advice of your mentors spouse parent friend, whoever it may be in your life that you can say they told me I should ask for more.

Then you can go and negotiate as ferociously as you want.

But that initial step to say oh, this was someone else, counteracts that bias really really, really effectively.

So it's funny how you know, particularly in something that's sort of as as uh high stakes as negotiation, where you know a little difference can result in a in a big difference in outcome a little difference in the way you prepare some of those little tricks actually go a really long way to uh getting people paid fairly.

Absolutely.

And Ben, I'm glad you said that.

And it's funny as we talk, I'm seeing like just a flow chart of all sorts of different podcast episodes.

This could turn into.

Right.

Because what you're talking about there is negotiating through bias.

And I feel like there's not enough research out there that speaks to the fact that, hey.

Different people are perceived differently.

This is scientifically proven.

So for me, in my last book, I wanted to encourage people to say, all right, listen.

Bias is nothing more than another strategic consideration.

What are the biases that are going to be at play?

And now I can work around it.

So a lot of times we look at it in a, we assume a position of powerlessness where we say ah, I'm black.

They're going to be biased against me.

I'm a woman.

They're going to be biased against me.

And then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

But what we can do is we can say, hey, These are the biases that are against me.

Roger that.

Got it.

I have strategies that I can use to overcome that.

And it's really powerful.

And that example that you gave is a great one, too.

And I know there are going to be people out there who are saying, you know what?

How about people just be less racist or less sexist?

Right.

And 100 percent.

We need to have those trainings and whatnot to help people to recognize those biases.

However, in the meantime, you are still responsible for taking care of yourself and we can't just put our hands up and say oh, the bias got in the way and i, i decided not to really put forth my best foot forward, right?

So i think this is really important that you said that.

I really appreciate it.

I i just to totally echo that.

You know so a big part of reba's mission, right is is to try and help close the pay gap.

And it's funny because i'll have lots of conversations with people who are who totally agree with the mission.

Their focus is always, you know oh, we'll change this policy.

Or you know, we just got to have more awareness and advocacy about this issue.

And, and that is really important right, policy changes can have a huge role.

But at the same time right, those are decades down the road for that, for us to truly achieve those things.

And there are people today who i mean Working with Reva.

Right, our average increase is 25K.

That is like dollars in the pockets of human beings.

They can spend them tomorrow.

And for me that's where I really get excited and get my motivation from is like okay, let's meet the world where it is right now.

And I love that, right?

Yeah, there are things working against me, but I might also be negotiating from a position where I don't have much leverage.

It doesn't change the fact that i gotta assess that situation realistically, think through my strategy and then go actually do it.

Um, it's a really empowering way to think um, it's a really uh.

And this is something that that i love is seeing, you know, we have clients come out of working with us and they'll tell us that it really shifted the way they think about themselves and they they'll be like hey i, i can stand up for myself, i can advocate for more, And you know, you sort of set them down this trajectory.

We've been doing this just long enough.

Now that we've got clients who are you know, coming back and they're you know, they'll send us a note and be like hey, just negotiated a raise for myself.

Inflation's high.

I deserve it.

And I love those stories just because it's.

I think learning that you can do something that's as intimidating as negotiating is is a uh, is a real proof point for yourself that uh yeah, you know, despite everything that might be working against you, meet the world where it is and plot out a strategy.

You can get where you need to go.

It's uh, it's really cool stuff.

Yeah, it's empowering.

It reminds me of Atomic Habits by James Clear, where he talks about when it comes to habits, your identity is built up of just repeatedly doing certain things.

You are what you repeatedly do.

And every time you do something that reinforces an identity that you want to have, it is a vote of confidence of you as that person.

So you change their lives.

It's incredible.

Um, yeah, I, I, I do really, um, you know, well, yeah, totally.

Right.

Every, you know, it's, it's you, uh, you vote with your minutes, right.

You vote for the kind of person you want to be, with every minute and every decision you make in that moment.

Um, but yeah I I, I do, you know I I, I love that.

You know, our impact is not measured in hugs and rainbows.

It's Millions of dollars in the pockets of people.

It's not in the pockets of behemoth corporations.

So I love doing it.

It's a lot of fun.

That's awesome.

I'll just mention one other thing.

So the way we do our coaching is we use recruiters to be the coaches, because they just know all the ins and outs of hiring in their different industries.

Smart.

And what's so fun about it is how we've been able to scale up on their coaching side so quickly, because every recruiter says this is the most rewarding thing I've ever done.

Negotiating on behalf of Amazon or Google or Raytheon, trying to get more money for us, less money for the people I'm working with.

Now I get to switch sides.

I get to sit on the other side of the table.

Right.

This is meaningful.

It's fun to just watch people be able to, back to that kind of identity, right?

They say hey, I actually have a skill set that is really useful for other people, not just something I can sell on the open market.

That's fun too.

That's awesome, man.

I'm happy for you.

I am pumped.

And I'm glad that we're able to spread this to the world.

Um and uh.

Just based on the vibe I got from you and how awesome this episode was, I can't wait to have you back on again.

Um, but remind the listeners again about who you are and what you do and how they can get in touch.

Yeah, absolutely.

My name is Ben Cook.

Um, I'm the CEO of a negotiation startup called Riva HQ.

We're at rivahq.com.

Um and uh.

Yeah, we work with everyone, from every background, every industry, at every level, all across the country.

You only pay if it works.

We charge commission only.

So we only make money when you make more money.

So come check us out, reevehq.com.

Love it.

Everybody, there will be links in the description of the episode.

Ben, thanks again, man.

Really appreciate it.

It's been fantastic chatting with you.

I hope to be back.

This is a lot of fun.

A lot of really interesting things that I think we both shared mindset between the two of us.

So love it.

[Negotiation Masterclass: Mastering the Art of Value and Salary Advocacy]-[Know Your Worth: How to Negotiate Higher Pay Without Conflict or Fear]

📋 Summary

Negotiation Masterclass: Strategies for Professional Growth and Salary Advocacy

1. Defining and Communicating Personal Value

2. Navigating Economic Realities and Inflation

3. The Mindset Shift: From Conflict to Collaboration

4. Overcoming Bias and Mental Barriers

Conclusion: Taking the Plunge

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

[Negotiation Masterclass: Mastering the Art of Value and Salary Advocacy]-[Know Your Worth: How to Negotiate Higher Pay Without Conflict or Fear]

📋 Summary

Negotiation Masterclass: Strategies for Professional Growth and Salary Advocacy

1. Defining and Communicating Personal Value

2. Navigating Economic Realities and Inflation

3. The Mindset Shift: From Conflict to Collaboration

4. Overcoming Bias and Mental Barriers

Conclusion: Taking the Plunge

Deep Learning with ListenLeap

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript

ListenLeap Brings You Into Real Context Learning