Lemonada.
Brains on Universe.
We could disappear if our listeners don't step up.
But that part is easy.
Just join SmartyPass.
You'll get access to ad-free versions of our shows, special online hangs with our crew, discounts on merch and more.
Plus, you'll feel great knowing you're helping us pay our debaters, sound designers, writers and more.
Join now at smartypass.org.
Thank you.
Now, it's showtime.
From the brains behind Brains On, it's Smash Boom Best.
The show for people with big opinions.
Hi, I'm Molly Bloom, and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together and ask you to decide which one is best.
Today, we're debating two popular pastimes.
One lets you make your own cozy, cuddly creations.
The other lets you design hearty, helpful homeware.
It's knitting versus pottery.
Two cool crafts with endless possibilities, but only one winner.
Yearning for yarn, it's comedian Katie McVeigh for Team Knitting.
I am casting on for victory and craving the kiln for Team Pottery.
It's science writer Manica Wilhelm.
It's very hard to choose a favorite craft, but pottery is, I think, as close to winning the lottery as you could get.
Oh my gosh.
And here to judge this craft-tastic debate is Amelia from Chicago.
Amelia does debate.
She loves learning the why of things, has three siblings and just moved from sunny Phoenix Arizona to the Windy City aka Chicago.
Hi, Amelia.
Hey.
So do you do any crafts yourself?
Yeah, I love to draw and I also love writing, if writing is considered a craft.
Sure.
Have you tried pottery or knitting?
I wish.
They're both two things that I really want to do, but I have unfortunately never done either.
I tried to learn to knit once, but then my brother stole the knitting needles and used them as swords.
Oh, man.
Oh, no.
Well, that's good, though.
You're a blank slate when it comes to these two things.
So okay, you moved to Chicago recently, which was probably like a big change, at least weather-wise.
Definitely.
How was your first winter in Chicago?
It was very snowy, which apparently was not normal.
I have only seen snow falling from the sky a few times, because we've been living in Arizona for seven years.
So you don't really see that.
And I come here and I think it's fantastic that there's so much snow and everyone's like this is not normal.
Usually it's much more depressing.
Did you enjoy the snow, though?
Yes.
No, I did like the snow.
So.
You have three siblings.
Where are you in the order?
I'm the oldest.
Nice.
I'm the oldest too.
So I'm guessing there are debates happening in your family.
Yeah.
Occasionally.
Debates, arguments, however you want to phrase it.
So since you do debate, does that help you with like family arguments?
Yeah.
I guess.
I think so.
I think, because this is my first year that I've done debate, because they didn't have it at my old school in Arizona.
So I think that it's made me a better arguer.
So what kind of topics do you find yourselves debating with your family?
If the movie that my siblings have picked is a fair choice.
Okay.
If we have to eat our dinner.
If we have to play the game that someone wants to play.
Okay.
And since you have done debate this year, what's kind of like a takeaway.
You've sort of learned this year about how to be a good debater that you got to care about your topic.
Like, if you debate like you don't care, then you're not going to win the round.
But if you debate like you do care, you have a big leg up.
Hmm, very good.
Well, will Amelia pick pottery or will she make knitting number one?
The debate will decide, but let's start with the rules.
Every debate consists of four rounds.
The Declaration of Greatness, the micro round. the sneak attack, and the final six.
After each round, our judge Amelia, will award points to the team that impresses her the most, but she'll keep her decisions top secret until the end of the debate.
Listeners, we want you to judge too.
Mark down your points as you listen.
At the end of the show, head to our website smashboomorg, and vote for whichever team you think won.
Okay, Katie, Maynika, and Amelia, are you ready?
Yep.
Absolutely.
Oh, yeah.
Then it's time for the Declaration of Greatness.
In this round, our debaters will present a well-crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side.
Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements.
We flipped a coin, and Katie, you're up first.
Tell us why you'll never quit the knit.
Who is that?
Oh, hey, one sec.
Let me pause this.
Sorry, I was just in the middle of a movie marathon.
First, it was Lord of the Strings.
Then, Blair Stitch Project.
And now, Silence of the Lambswool.
There's nothing I love more than curling up on the couch with a movie, refreshing seltzer water and my favorite craft of choice knitting.
I'm working on a baby blanket for my friend who has a daughter on the way.
Maybe she'll name the baby Katie McVey.
How can she not after she sees this beauty?
It's made of super soft, slightly furry, chunky chenille yarn.
See the pastels?
The yarn fades from a buttercream yellow into a mint green, then baby blue, then lavender, mist and finally a peachy dream.
Can you imagine being a baby and this is one of the first things you see?
Oh, look, she's opening her eyes.
Here, let's show her Katie's baby blanket.
I know how important it was to her for the baby to see it right away.
I love it, Mama.
Please name me after the person who made this beautiful item.
Oh my gosh, it worked.
Incredible.
But knitting is magic.
You take strings and make almost anything from sweaters and stuffies to bags and socks.
And there's all kinds of patterns you can use and different textures of yarn.
And knitting has been keeping humans alive in cold climates for centuries.
Even the Vikings had their own early knitting-adjacent form of needlework.
You know Vikings, arguably some of the toughest humans who ever lived.
Yeah, you know what kept them warm on the open seas?
Not a pottery bowl.
Solid string work, of course.
Meanwhile, pottery?
You cannot wear a vase.
You cannot wrap a clay mug around your shoulders during a blizzard.
But a knitted scarf?
A knitted hat?
A knitted blanket?
Like the one I just made for baby Katie McVeigh?
That is survival gear dressed up as a gift.
And speaking of gifts, a hand-read pottery bowl says, I made this.
Now you have to put it on your shelf and you're already crowded home and it doesn't match any of your dishes.
A knitted scarf says, I thought about you for 40 hours.
I want to keep you warm.
I clearly love you.
Aww.
I can't tell if it's this scarf keeping me warm or the warmth I feel from being so loved.
Now, let's talk logistics.
Pottery requires clay water, a wheel and a kiln which, by the way, is essentially a tiny volcano that costs thousands of dollars.
Knitting just requires two sticks and some string.
And if you're in a pinch, you can skip the sticks.
It's called finger knitting.
That's it.
You can take it with you anywhere.
On a plane, on a boat, during a long car ride.
And your needles?
They're straight up multipurpose.
We're talking back scratchers.
Lightsabers.
Presentation pointers.
Quarter retrievers.
Just stick a piece of gum on the end of that bad boy fish a quarter out of a storm drain and you're 001 one of the way towards buying your first kiln.
Knitting is cheaper, it's easier for people to learn, and totally kid-friendly.
It's meditative when you need to calm down and a complicated brain bender when you need a challenge.
It is, as I'm pretty sure the great crafters of human history would agree, the people's art.
Wow.
I mean, I have to say, if you made me that blanket, I would also rename myself Katie McVeigh as a grown-up.
This is the goal.
Everyone should.
Amelia, what stood out to you about Katie's declaration of greatness?
I love to the point that knitting is magic because I think that's such a fun way to think about knitting and crafts.
And I also like how you pointed out that knitting is easy and inexpensive, though the point about it being child-friendly might be questionable if you consider the sword fiasco that happens in my house.
Very fair.
Okay, Maynika, you have 30 seconds to unravel those arguments.
Your time starts now.
Okay, so yeah, I hear you saying knitting is great for sitting, but what if you want to move?
What if you want to use your whole body to make stuff?
Knitting does help you keep warm, but so would a nice mug of warm soup, mug of warm tea, anybody.
And the portability of knitting is like OK, but you know if you're going to drag around a whole blanket summer is coming.
You're going to get sweaty if you're knitting your blanket out in the world.
The sun is shining down on you.
That seems tough.
And also, knitting being cheaper, I don't know, you guys, yarn can get expensive.
Here's what I'll say, okay?
The warm mug of soup sounds great, except you're only providing the pottery, baby.
You're not providing the soup.
So unless this is a soup challenge, I don't see how this point goes anywhere.
I'm sitting under a warm blanket I knitted, and I'll tell you what.
I don't need to pour any soup on it to make it cozy, comfy.
A great point, Katie.
A great point.
Thank you so much.
Coming up, Team Pottery will take the wheel.
First, a quick break.
We're back.
Knitting made some great points, but now it's time for Maynika to give us her pitch for pottery.
I'm a craft connoisseur.
I've made coasters and posters, tie-dye and bonsai.
I've painted and snipped, sewn and dripped.
And knitting?
Been there, crocheted that.
So you can trust me when I say that when it comes to crafts, pottery is the smash boom best.
Pottery is taking clay and shaping it into something else.
A bowl, a vase, a sculpture.
But it's so much more.
Come, I'll show you.
Let's go to the magical place known as the pottery studio.
Here at the studio, the tables are big enough for eight people to shape clay.
The pottery wheels are a worry.
Those are big wheels that you put your clay on and you can shape the clay as it spins.
Coming through.
Oh, and there's lots of heavy buckets.
They're full of all the liquids and supplies we need.
Like water, sometimes clay, or maybe glaze.
That's right.
It takes a bunch of tools to shape and bake the clay.
But don't let that scare you, because that leads to one of my favorite things about this craft.
You got to share.
Not everyone has a potter's wheel at home, or an extruder, which is a machine that smushes clay out into different shapes, or a kiln, which is the mega oven that we use for baking the clay.
That's why we gather together to work at the pottery studios.
Yeah, it's like hanging with friends while making stuff.
Plus, we learn from each other.
It's a real good time.
Hey, Manika, check out this mug I made.
It's shaped like a pear.
Beautiful.
And of course, you see all kinds of stuff at the studio.
Not just floppy tubes or flippy flaps like you'd see at a knitting circle.
Yeah, I'm making sculptures of all the fish in our region.
They're accurate in size and color.
Um, cool.
I'm working on a vase big enough to bathe a baby.
A very large baby.
Wow, love the enthusiasm.
Another thing I love about pottery, if you'll let me get a little philosophical...
Pottery is messy, sure.
You end up covered in clay.
But I think getting messy is one of the great joys of being alive.
Clay bits in your eyebrows, your ankles, your elbows.
It's an incredible reminder.
We cannot control every part of our existence.
Sometimes you shape your clay.
Other times, your clay shapes you, and that's okay.
Existing in the mess is the best part of the process.
Also, think about this.
The clay you work with is made from ground-up pieces of rock.
Specifically, rocks that used to be lava.
Which is so hardcore!
You're shaping ground up bits of lava.
And after you've shaped your clay, pottery bakes in super hot ovens.
They reach completely brutal temps of 2000 degrees Fahrenheit.
More hardcore-ness.
And the pottery you made.
It's made of clay and covered in glazes that actually harden and transform under that heat.
Hardest of the course!
Pottery does things that nothing else can.
The studios bring people from all walks of life together, from hipsters to retirees and everyone in between.
The materials teach us all that we're small compared to the lava flows that formed our clay.
And it involves a process that's totally metal and awesome.
If that doesn't bowl you over, I don't know what would.
Wow.
A hardcore argument for a very friendly and delightful craft.
Amelia, what stood out to you about Menaka's Declaration of Greatness?
I like how she talked about it being a group experience, like you have to share with other people, and that you can't just do it by yourself.
And I also never thought of pottery as being hardcore before, but I think I have to change my mind on that one.
Definitely.
Okay, Katie, it is time for you to crack up Manica's main points.
You've got 30 seconds and your time starts right now.
I just want to say that Manika's declaration did make me want to get behind the wheel.
Unfortunately, I will have to get behind two wheels because I will need to drive to go to the pottery studio something I don't need to do to knit.
Additionally, I do love the communal aspect of pottery, but I would like to remind everyone of the knitting circle, a time-honored tradition of knitting in community.
And thirdly, I don't think that I need any lava involved in my craft for it to be cool and hardcore.
And time.
Oh, we'll never know how knitting's hardcore.
We'll learn later.
We'll learn later.
Don't worry about it.
Katie has obviously never enjoyed the extreme pleasure of a molten hot glue gun.
That's another craft that uses, you know, high temps to create beautiful things.
But I do.
I feel like the truth is surfacing, which is that knitting is good for basically being a cat, and cats are great.
But sometimes you might want to kind of be more of a dog, run around, be in the sun, make some stuff with other people.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Amelia, it is time to award some points.
Please give one point to the declaration of greatness that you liked best and one point to the rebuttal that won you over.
You get to decide what makes a winning argument.
Did one team teach you more?
Did another make you want to give their hobby a try?
Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to.
Have you made your decision?
Yes.
Excellent.
Mainika and Katie, how are you two feeling so far?
I am feeling warm and basking in the glow of my future victory and this blanket that I knit.
Wow.
I'm drinking out of a mug that I glazed, and I am really enjoying myself as well.
Wonderful.
Okay, well, it's time for a quick break.
Grab some more yarn or a clump of clay.
And we'll be right back with more Spash Boom Best.
You're listening to State of Debate, home to rage and rhetoric and awe-inspiring argumentation.
Buongiorno, dynamic debaters.
It's me, Taylor Lincoln, with my cheesy chum, Todd Douglas.
Well, buongiorno to you too, Taylorino.
Say, that's a lot of dough you've got there.
Do you mean these stacks of money or all this pizza dough?
Gosh, both, I guess.
Well, thanks for noticing, Todd.
I was just thinking about how rich I am.
Rich with knowledge.
Just yesterday, my friend told me about a sticky logical fallacy that I just can't toss.
That's a debate mistake that makes your argument easy to defeat.
Let's take a listen.
You look nice.
Well, thank you.
So do you.
Do you have the tickets?
You bet I do.
I was just thinking of whipping up a homemade pizza for us first.
But the symphony starts at 7.30.
Let's just microwave up a frozen burrito and call it good.
One sad burrito?
Frozen?
No, Dana.
Pizza's a better option.
Pizzas have pizzazz.
And you can personalize them with fresh herbs like parsley, sage, rosemary, and, oh, see?
We have so much thyme.
Are you sure we have time?
Pizzas take a while and it's getting pretty late.
Yes, we have plenty of time for the pizza.
So what do you say?
Shall we whip up a pizza real quick?
If you're sure we have enough time.
We have lots of time.
Okay, then let's do it.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Do you mean we have lots of time like T-I-M-E, as in minutes and seconds, or time like the herb T-H-Y-M-E, you know, the green plant with a savory flavor?
Yes.
Ooh, that got spicy.
You mean the pizza or the ambiguity fallacy?
Definitely the ambiguity fallacy.
That's when someone uses a double meaning or ambiguous language to mislead or represent the truth.
That's right.
You don't specify exactly what you're referring to, so the other person can't agree or refute it.
Like how Jay tried to convince Dana that they should have pizza by telling her they had plenty of time.
Aka the herb.
But Dana was worried about the other kind of time, being late.
That fallacy is definitely too crusty to fold into a good argument.
Or a pizza.
You know, I could really go for a pie right now.
Wait, a pie pie or a pizza pie?
Exactly.
We'll see you next time on State of Debate.
Smash.
Boom.
You're listening to Smash Boom Best.
I'm your host, Molly Bloom.
And I'm your judge, Amelia.
And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners, like this one from Fitz.
I would love to hear Monster Jam versus NASA.
Wow, rockets and satellites versus big wheels and crushed cars?
Either way, it's epic.
We'll hear who Fitz thinks should win at the end of the show.
And now it's back to our debate, knitting versus pottery.
That's right.
And it's time for round two, the micro round.
It's time for a fact off.
Manika and Katie will each get three chances to make a micro argument backed by a cool fact or idea.
Katie went first last round, so Manika, please start us off.
Well, societies around the world have been doing pottery for thousands of years, with slightly different clays, glazes and kilns.
And one of the coolest forms of pottery in history has been Chinese porcelain, which was a super bright white clay.
The Chinese potters figured out how to make exceptionally strong and delicate and then that really bright white, so that colors showed up from glazes really well.
And when Marco Polo brought that clay porcelain back to Europe in the 1300s, Europeans loved it, but they couldn't figure out how to recreate it for another 300 years or so.
And that's why some pottery is still called China.
Here's what I'll tell you.
There's been a lot of talk about how pottery is hardcore, but knitting is equally hardcore.
In World War II, women would use knitting to make codes for soldiers fighting against Germany.
They'd knit certain patterns into sweaters to pass information along.
And because knitting is so I would say undervalued underappreciated, people don't think oh, what a hardcore hobby.
No one thought much about it.
And those codes got passed along, baby.
Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.
Yeah, but pottery has also been passing along information about ancient societies for decades.
When anthropologists find pieces of old pottery at a dig, they call it a sherd.
Is there anything funnier than that?
And sherds show us what our ancestors ate and cooked where they lived, even what they thought was cool in the designs that they put onto their pots.
That's pretty cool.
But I mean, knitting is for the now.
If you've got brain rot, if you've got a short attention span, you can try watching live knitting on TV.
In Norway, a TV channel pioneered slow TV, which are slow, calming shows that are an antidote to all the short addictive stuff on the internet.
And one popular show was just several hours of someone knitting live on television.
Because obviously nothing is more soothing and satisfying than watching someone magically make a sweater from a pile of string.
Yeah, but what I'll say to that is that people who are on TV has lately found out about pottery.
So there are lots of celebrities who are notorious ceramicists now, including Seth Rogen, Brad Pitt, Leonardo DiCaprio and Serena Williams.
Well, knitting is still the people's art, so it is a competitive sport for people whose names you don't know.
There are competitions for how fast you can knit.
The world's fastest knitter is Hazel Tindall, who knit 262 stitches in three minutes.
What?
There's also a record for how fast a team can go from sheep to sweater, which involves shaving the sheep, making the yarn turning into a sweater.
The record is 4 hours, 45 minutes, and 53 seconds.
Whoa.
Really fast.
Whoa.
That's incredible.
Okay, these are some truly mind-blowing facts.
Amelia, what stood out to you about this micro round?
I really liked...
Manica's like into history and all the things that pottery tells us about history.
And then I liked how, with knitting, there's like this emphasis on knitting is for everyone, and like you don't need to be a special person to do knitting.
Yes, Seth Rogen laughing.
Okay Amelia, it is time to award a point.
The criteria are totally subjective and totally up to you.
Have you made your decision?
Yes, Perfect.
Keep it a secret.
And we'll be right back.
We're back with this craft night crackdown.
Time for round three, the sneak attack.
This is our improvised round where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot.
Today's challenge is superhero showdown.
If your side was a superhero, what would that superhero's name be and what would their superpower be?
How would the superhero save the world?
Katie, you're up first this time.
Tell us about a hero based on knitting.
Okay, he would be called Captain Castong and he would take his knitting needles and he would knit sweaters around supervillains and other such bad doers.
Bad.
Bad doers?
Yeah.
I'm going with it.
Bad doers.
He would knit quick.
Hazel Tindall would be left in the dust with how fast Captain Caston is knitting.
And, oh boy, at the end he would donate the sweaters to large groups who want to wear a sweater together, because obviously he's capturing villains inside sweaters.
So good for the community.
Good for the world.
Captain Caston, cast away!
And he has got a catchphrase, too.
Oh, my gosh.
Incredible.
Okay, Maynika, please tell us, what would a superhero of pottery do?
All right, the superhero for pottery is going to be called the Mush Smasher.
And this superhero is going to take amazing, incredible messes, things that just look like just a dump, a mess.
You know that could never turn into anything, just a lump of yuck and
Go around, spin around them.
You're not going to know what's happening.
It's like the Tasmanian devil, but times like four million gajillion.
And by the time the mush masher is done, there will be an incredible object of beauty that is ready to last in perpetuity serve generations.
So, you know, this could work on really small scales from I don't know, just like an anthill in the backyard that you're like.
Oh no, that's terrible.
That could become something really wonderful to a really large scale, where you're like oh no, the Great Pacific garbage patch.
That's a mess.
But now we can clean it up into something that is great.
So mostly aesthetic crimes.
Isn't that the worst kind?
Many people are saying.
Amazing.
Does the mush smasher have a catchphrase?
I think it's mush smashed.
Wow.
A poet.
A poet as well.
Oh, Amelia, this is a tough one, but it's time to award a point.
Which side had the best hero?
Did one sound more heroic?
Did one make you laugh?
Did one make you think?
Please pick a winner of this round and don't tell us who it is.
Have you awarded your point?
Yes.
Wonderful.
Then it's time for our final round.
The final six.
In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side.
Mainika, you're up first.
Tell us why pottery is hard to beat.
You can't sip from a sock.
Very nice.
Okay, Katie, last chance to stitch it up for knitting.
Okay, because it made it, because I want to say something else.
Homemade mugs make terrible shoe... Hold.
I mean, homemade mugs make terrible foot...
Holders.
That wasn't what I intended to say originally, but, you know.
You had to respond.
I had to respond because I think that we're all ignoring that socks you put on every day.
How often are you putting mugs on your toes?
Very rarely.
Oh, amazing.
Okay.
All right.
This is tough, but Amelia, you can only award one point for this final six.
Please award your final point for this round.
Have you made your decision?
Yes.
Awesome.
Are you ready to crown one side the smash boom best?
Yes.
Okay.
Drum roll, please.
And the winner is... Knitting!
Yeah!
Knit, knit, knit, knit, knit!
Oh, my goodness.
Amelia, was there a moment that decided things?
Did you have a favorite moment?
It kind of went back and forth for a while.
And then I really liked...
The idea of the captain cast on and like stopping bad guys with love instead of like blowing up an entire block and said you just make a scarf around them.
But pottery almost made a comeback in the final six, but it wasn't enough to balance out the sneak attack process.
It was really close.
So close.
I think the sweaters stopping bad doers was my favorite part.
Manica.
I mean, one of the best declarations of greatness I've ever heard in my whole gosh darn life.
It made me want to try pottery, which I have never wanted to try before because I am... anti-mess.
And it made me realize I need to get out there in the in the mush of life.
Really incredible declaration of greatness changed my worldview.
Wow.
An honor to change minds.
Change minds for Amelia about hardcore.
Katie about pottery.
You know, and I did.
Katie made me reconsider picking up my good old knit and sticks.
Because I think making blankets for babies is such a nice time, such a nice thing.
I want some babies out there named Manica Wilhelm after my blankets as well.
I will say, I've been making baby blankets, and yet no one is naming their baby Katie McVeigh.
Which I think, first and last, they should do both.
Absolutely.
All right, that's it for today's debate battle.
Amelia Crown knitting the Smash Boom vest, but what about you?
Head to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won.
This episode was produced by me, Molly Bloom, and Mark Sanchez.
It was sound designed by Rachel Brees, and Mark Sanchez wrote our theme song.
We had engineering help from Wesley Tayak.
Our announcer is Marley Foyerworker-Otto, and we want to give a special thanks to Austin Kroc and taylor kaufman manica.
Is there anyone you'd like to give a shout out to today?
Of course, i want to shout out my sister, who took up ceramics after me but now makes more beautiful things than i ever could, as well as a couple pottery pals, maddie thomas, caroline champlin and cory kramer, who made pottery a lot more fun for me over the years.
Oh, how about you, katie?
Any special shout outs?
I will shout out Anna Weigel.
I will also shout out Hazel Tindall and her fast fingers.
And a final shout out to my niece Lilia, who is not named after me but sleeps under a blanket I made.
Aww.
And how about you, Amelia?
Any special thanks or shout outs?
I want to shout out my mom for driving me here and a big shout out to my siblings for encouraging me to sign up for this and for being a lot more craftsy and fun than I am.
Special shout out to my brother because it's his birthday today.
Happy birthday!
Before we go, let's check in and see who Fitz thinks should win the debate between NASA and Monster Jam.
I think Monster Jam would win, because it's really fun to watch and monster tricks do all sorts of different tricks.
If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knockdown, drag out debate, head to smashboomorg, slash contact and drop us a line.
And if you're a fan of the show and want to keep it going, head to smartypass.org to subscribe.
We'll be back next week with a new Smash Boom Best episode, Balloons vs. Candles.
Bye-bye.
See ya.
Mushmashed.
Bye-bye.
Cast away.
Okay, guys, there's still time out there, listeners.
You can name your baby Katie McVeigh one day if you do.
Let us know at brainson.org slash contact.
