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Hello, welcome back to the podcast.
This is just a quick reminder at the beginning that I'm doing a stand -up comedy show on Friday the 19th of July.
Yes, as well as being an English teacher and a podcaster, I also do stand -up comedy in the evenings.
And most of the time that is in Paris, because that's where I live.
And if I ever have plans to come and perform in another part of the world, then I will let you know so that you will have a chance to come and see me if I am in your area at some point.
But at the moment, it's just in Paris.
So the show I'm doing is called Same Difference.
It's actually a two -man show with my friend Charles, and I'll be doing 30 minutes of stand -up.
Charles will be doing 30 minutes as well.
And come down and join us if you are in the Paris area.
19th of July, 8 .30 p .m.
The venue is called Au Soleil de la Boute, which is 32 Rue Muller in the 18th arrondissement of Paris.
So come along, come and see me do stand -up comedy, have a laugh, stick around and say hi afterwards if you want to.
19th of July, 8 .30pm, Au Soleil de la Boute, 32 rue Muller in the 18th arrondissement of Paris.
Check the link in the description if you want to reserve a seat.
Nice one. You're listening to Luke's English Podcast.
For more information, visit teacherluke .co .uk.
Hello, hello, hello, hello, hello and hello and welcome to this new episode of Luke's English Podcast.
This is a podcast for learners of English around the world.
In this episode, we're talking about work -related things.
This time it's the world of job interviews.
Yes, those dreaded meetings where you've applied for a new job and you've been invited to come and sit with your potential new employers, answer questions, and attempt to sell yourself as the perfect candidate for the job.
Job interviews, they can be stressful.
They could be challenging, especially in English, of course.
Maybe this episode can help.
My guest this time is Natasha V.
Broody, who was first on this podcast in episode number 743, Who Could Forget, when she talked about a book which she wrote a few years ago about practical tips for politeness in English.
That book and episode were called Give Me Tea, Please.
Do you remember that?
Some people are like, huh, what?
I don't even remember what happened this morning, Luke.
I don't know, maybe long -term listeners, you might remember episode 743 with Natasha talking about politeness and the way that we deal with politeness in English anyway since then Natasha has written another book and this time it's all about job interviews it's called swag art the art of professional
schmoozing at job interviews okay swag art the art of professional schmoozing at job interviews let me just explain the title so swag art this refers to the art of swagger.
Okay, swagger, this means presenting yourself in a bold and confident way to have swagger.
Natasha believes that to sell yourself properly in job interviews and to stand up for yourself in competitive and often unfair job markets, a bit of swagger is vital.
And this is one of the things that Natasha aims to do with this book to help you to approach job interviews with a sense of self -assuredness and confidence, which you need if you're going to successfully sell yourself in a competitive and sometimes ruthless job market, right?
The art of professional schmoozing.
So, schmoozing means talking with someone in a lively and friendly way, typically in order to impress or even manipulate them, okay?
This is something we do when we're networking professionally, talking to people in this confident, often persuasive manner.
That's called schmoozing, right?
So that's what Natasha's book aims to help you with, right?
Being a master job interview candidate, being able to do those things in a confident way, someone who's able to fully navigate the interview space with a sense of self -assuredness.
So here's some information about the book from the summary which is written on Amazon.
Other bookshops are available.
This is what's written there.
Unlike other typical books and articles on career development and job interviewing tips that often provide generic motivational advice, Swag Art sets itself apart by sharing the author's authentic experiences, tried and tested strategies and invaluable insights to strategically answer interview questions.
Swag Art reveals the author's proven strategies, expert tips gained through life lessons and intimate experiences to prepare you for high profile job interviews.
The guidebook thoughtfully addresses the specific challenges faced by people of colour in the interview landscape, namely black women, as well as black, brown and Arab men, making it invaluable to all job seekers.
So if you're a job seeker without insider connections, this book is for you.
Swaggart reflects the author's personal journey, proving that you can navigate the job market successfully without preferential treatment.
OK, so it's a personal exploration of the art of job interviews and it's informed by Natasha's difficult experiences in the job market.
OK, so let's talk to Natasha about what she's learned about job interviews through her own experiences and challenges, just to give you a sense of what you're going to hear in this conversation.
First of all, I asked Natasha a little bit about what she's been doing in the last few years since we last spoke, how she's been living in different countries and her love of travelling.
Then I asked Natasha about how she was inspired to write this book about job interviews.
She explains some of the challenges she has experienced, particularly how working in a toxic environment forced her to accept certain realities about interviewing and about employment and forced her to focus very hard on the importance of self -belief, self -confidence and the ability to sell yourself
in order to progress in your career when you face daily prejudices and an unbalanced job market.
After that, Natasha gets into specific advice about how to approach job interviews successfully, including what you should do both before and during interviews.
This includes details about these things, how to focus your responses on your professional skills, how to tailor your answers to the aims and objectives of the company and that particular position, how to do your research into the company and the role you're applying for, how to describe your strengths
with specific examples, how to get comfortable in job interviews, how to deal with the stress of the big day, how to deal with certain typical questions and how and when to discuss salary.
Okay, so that's an overview of what you're about to hear.
Now, it's not possible for us to cover every single thing you need to know about job interviews in just one episode.
Of course, you'd have to read Natasha's whole book for that.
And by the way, there's a link in the description.
But we certainly cover quite a lot here.
And yes, listen until the end of the episode to listen to me recap the main points given by Natasha in this conversation.
OK, right. So without further ado, let's get started.
Let's meet Natasha.
Let's hear what she has to say about this whole subject of job interviews.
And here we go. Hello, Natasha.
Welcome back to the podcast.
Thank you very much.
It's good to be back.
Yeah. The last time we spoke on this podcast was when you had written your previous book.
That was in 2021. Well remembered.
Here we are, three years later.
Have you been busy over the last three years?
The last two and a half years, I pretty much was sitting down in a variety of different countries and different spaces writing out my second book.
That's pretty much my life until last November when I published it and released it.
So not so much during the time period when I was writing the book.
It was just getting that material out.
But then since then, I've been trying to acclimate back to a normal life, which means something very different from nomads.
So something like that.
You are a bit of a nomad, aren't you?
You've worked in lots of different places where are you at the moment in new york no i'm in maine i'm in portland maine i never would have thought myself being here but i'm in portland maine and i am taking advantage of the sun when it's here to go biking very good way to get back in shape yeah great and where else
have you been in the last few years oh god so the majority of the book that we're about to discuss was written in Ecuador so I was living in Ecuador pretty much all throughout last year spent some time in Greece just a little bit of time saw my family in the UK saw some close friends in France and then
spent some time with one of my best friends in Tennessee started writing my second book pretty much in Malaysia that was maybe 2022 if I'm remembering it properly so i was doing that for probably about two or three or two or three months and then um before then oh really started it in egypt so i was there
for about two months and then went to malaysia so yeah a lot of places like i said so many different places yeah you're a complete nomad so how come how come you spend time in all these different places then i love I love travel.
It is literally the makeup of my life.
I love it. I absolutely love it.
Anyone who becomes a travel geek knows the phrase that travel is a drug.
It is so addictive, meeting different people, meeting different places and seeing different cultures and acclimating into it.
It is so much a part of who I am and what I believe in that I can't see my future without it.
What's the most exciting moment when you're traveling to a new place?
The moment when I'm traveling to a new place, that's a really, no one has ever asked me that kind of question.
The moment that would be most exciting, probably language barriers and then trying to figure out how to communicate what it is that you want, either in a tongue that you do not know and you do not speak at all or with limited language skills and then having to get the reactions like I get in France
because my French is just not that good and the accent that goes behind it makes it even worse.
So things like that is those are probably the moments that I live for and cringe at the same time.
Yes yes well I know exactly how you feel in France.
So yeah you've written this second book then so tell us about the book.
What is the book called and what's it all about?
So this second book is called Swag Art, The Art of Professional Communication at Job Interviews.
And very much like its title, the book is about quite literally every single thing that I know and have learned over 20 years of doing interviews.
And I wanted to target it specifically for how to do these type of interviews for high -profile jobs It's no secret that I work in the UN system.
So a lot of my language and a lot of my experiences that I focus on derive from that time period or the time period that I'm in now, but it's not a book that is solely about how to interview for the UN or how to apply for jobs at the UN or how to do only high profile jobs.
This is not what the book is about.
The book is much more broad in terms of the type of cases that you might see when you are someone who is in an interview space and how to approach it.
How can you prepare for your upcoming interviews?
What are some of the, you would think it would be general knowledge to approach an interview, but it could slip through your mind.
Who knows? What are some of the uncomfortable interactions that you have to deal with at interviews?
It will happen, especially if you're trying to ascend the career ladder, where can you have these type of interviews?
How do you get these type of interviews?
It's very broad in that sense.
It was important for me to reach out to as many different people across as many different cultures and countries and religions that I could possibly reach out to given the scope that that is quite literally like my life as we discussed.
And that is quite literally the environment in which I work.
So it is a very, It's a book that is not just for those who are in high profile spots.
It's a book that is much, much, much more geared towards those who are interested in ascending the career ladder.
Okay. So what motivated you to write a book about job interviews?
Very good question.
I was just completing a contract with UNESCO and I was doing work on essentially freedom of expression issues and how it pertains to the safety of journalists with a particular lens on female journalists.
Essentially, it was my job every day or one aspect of my job every day was to comb through the news to find any kind of incident that was happening against reporters who are out in the field trying to bring credibility and light and truth to a topic.
Usually it was focused on drugs and trying to bring it, give it the attention that it needs.
I think because of maybe my Spanish language background, they shoved me mostly in Latin America.
So I was going through a lot of the different, um, kind of horrible stories that were going through that.
I say all of that to say, it was a lot for me.
It was a lot. It was not the way that I wanted to spend my every morning, um, waking up and then reading about horror.
It just was not for me.
So at the end of that contract, I really felt like I was at a pivotal moment where I could either completely change course and reconsider what I wanted to do in humanitarian and human rights issues, or take a moment and like rediscover myself or find myself.
And this book literally fell into my lap.
I will never forget it.
10 hours straight. I literally sat down with my laptop for 10 hours and I wrote an outline.
And the outline really hasn't changed.
What did change, however, was I saw in my outline three separate books.
So this book is supposed to be the first of three books, a trilogy in a way of speaking of how to navigate the job market.
And from that, I figured, okay, I will take time to just write out book one, and then I'll go to book two and book three.
but now that book one has been written I am actually kind of considering some other things that I want to do with my life then focus on the the world of interview spaces and job hunting so but that's that's how book one came about so okay it came from the fact that you decided to kind of quit your job
at UNESCO this this one that was just a bit much and then into the kind of employment space again is that it kind of so I didn't quit my job it was a short contract it wasn't really difficult to hold out I think it was three or four months so I just finished that contract and then instead of jumping
into a new contract or a new full -time position at some location I decided to take a career break I had been on a career break before COVID where I had this absurd idea of trying to learn four different languages in three years so that I can jump back into the humanitarian space.
COVID made sure that did not happen.
And so when I had the UNESCO job that popped up during COVID, I figured this would be a good time to really reevaluate what it was that I want.
COVID really did give me a mind change in terms of perspective and future planning, et cetera.
So I wanted to make sure that after that first contract that I got during COVID, is that the kind of career path that I wanted to continue going on?
I could if I wanted to.
Do I want to? Waking up every morning and reading about how a woman who was a rising journalist steps outside of her home to take her two or three sons to school or pick them up, something to that gets blown up because someone in the drug ring in a place in Latin America, I believe it was in Mexico,
discovered that she was behind the written articles of what their drug ring was doing and how it was shifting politics.
This is just not something that I want to do to start my day.
There are reporters who are trained to do that.
I'm not that. Yeah, absolutely.
So during that career break, that's when the kind of inspiration arrived to write this book.
And it's based on all your experiences, right?
I mean, you're very experienced at having job interviews and interviewing for different jobs.
Tell us a little bit about your experiences doing that.
Yeah, briefly, I suppose.
I entered into the workforce quite young.
I was probably around 15 or 16.
And I was doing really kind of boring things, data entry and financial stuff like that, didn't have the opportunity to leave because I didn't have a financial support system.
So I had to literally stay in the job market in order to pay for things like school and housing.
And the list goes on like anyone else here in America that just doesn't have the financial support system.
Because I had started young, what I realized by the time I was probably maybe 20 or 21, is that I was building a CV that most of my peers, at least in college, one, they didn't either have or two, they didn't even know what it really was.
And therefore, when I was submitting it to these, you know, like Simon and Schuster or submitting it to an art gallery or doing it at these art magazines, I would get these interviews and the interviewer would be like, who is sitting in front of me?
I look very young. I mean, for me right now, I'm knocking on the door 40.
I look very young. I know that.
So you can only imagine what that looked like 20 years ago.
So for me to be sitting there like that with, you know, this professional CV, handing it to them, and I can handle myself while speaking in an interview, it gave me a leg up.
It gave me access to spaces that probably people in their early twenties would not have seen.
And so that is really kind of the start of how I started doing interviews.
I became better at it.
I remember when I entered into British government and was pretty much like, okay, I don't have time to interview.
It's going to be this position and schooling on top of it, getting my master's degree.
That part came to a bit of a freeze, maybe in about 2015, 2016, when I realized this isn't what I want.
I want to be doing more.
So again, jumping back into the interview space, it really was a confident booster.
I had been so traumatized by my experience within British government that I realized if I'm going to appear in these interview spaces and demand to be paid what I believe that I was worth and do the skills that I knew that I could do and have the kind of determination and the drive to kind of manage
these projects that I wanted to do.
I could not come across in these interview spaces as the young college graduate that was just entering into the workforce or the naive kind of employee, possible employee that's easy to take advantage of.
I knew that I had to present a persona of someone who was battle scarred, knew what they want and was driven.
And changing my interview approach to kind of a line underneath that characterization, that was what really started ascending me into these levels of, well, one, the type of salaries that I would be seeing and the kind of salary packages that I was seeing.
I'd never seen anything like that before.
And then two, the kind of recommendations that were being put forward from recruiter to recruiter, pushing me to clients that I probably would not have seen before.
So the whole experience, it wasn't something that, you know, I just woke up one day and poof, I started interviewing well, not at all.
I started from the bottom and really had to learn my way by being rejected God knows how many times over and over and over again, listening to the feedback that I would get either from the recruiter or from the person who was interviewing me and then trying to change the way in which I presented myself without
compromising my identity in any kind of way, shape or form, that is not an easy task.
And it's something that I think either separates those who are able to ascend that career ladder, especially those who can ascend quickly, or those who really feel stuck and they don't know how to ascend in terms of their career.
Yeah. So it's all kind of built up through experience, some of it hard experience.
Your book opens with a sort of story, right?
The preface of the book contains a story of a very difficult situation that you found yourself in, right, in terms of the job that you had.
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Yeah, my opening, it's a hard one, my opening paragraph, probably the first two or three paragraphs, it really brings to the forefront what it is like working within the UN structure.
I've now had three or four positions within the UN structure, and it's very much the same.
I had an experience in one of these structures where you do not see a lot of attention being placed upon the discrepancies between how colleagues are given an equal opportunity to either high -profile jobs or low -profile jobs and the ranks between them.
And that also has an impact on the way that colleagues are paid.
And so in my introductory lines, I had very clearly expressed that in one of these positions that I had, there was a clear racial divide where four colleagues, four colleagues who look like me, all of us were positioned at the very bottom of the social structure that was in that office space.
And every other colleague, whether they were also people of color, I don't think there were many, maybe about two or three more.
And and then everyone else was white.
You can't make up statistics.
It's literally right there in front of you, all paid higher, all with higher rings, et cetera.
Those kind of environments don't happen by accident.
That's my belief. But what the fact of the matter is, is that statistically, we saw how people who look like me, people with dark skin, people with African heritage, et cetera, were still put in the bottom of these kind of employment structures.
And so how does that navigate this space of diversity, inclusion, this DEI kind of campaign that's going on, at least it's going on in the United States?
How does this get navigated in that space and how does it unfold into actionable type of policies or guidelines that will help improve the lives of those who look like me or anyone else who is from a targeted group?
Maybe they're from any of the targeted group.
Religion, sexuality is now one of them, marital status, whether they're female or male, whatever the targeted groups are.
I'm sure there are so much more.
This really did open up a structure to me about is this a space that I really want to stay in?
If I don't feel value as a colleague, why am I going to continue putting in my heart, blood, and soul to a place that doesn't actually see what I can possibly give them?
If I'm just a tick on the box, what am I really there to contribute?
And so from those introductory lines that I wrote in my book, I really use that as the launching pad of this understanding that I had, the self -realization that I had about owning your self -worth.
if you're trying to if you're in an interview space and you ascend and you ascend and you ascend and you move into the interview you move higher into the interview chains and maybe the third or fourth interview they tell you what we want you um let's talk about salary and now you need to justify what you
think you're worth if you do not have an internal understanding of what you're worth I guarantee you the person that you're speaking to is going to make sure they bleed you dry by giving you the bottom half of whatever that job was valued at.
Let's say it was just for easy numbers.
It was a job that's supposed to pay between 10 and $20.
They're going to make sure you get nine.
Yeah. The 10. So you really have this, this whole experience really opened my eyes about value, your self worth so that you can ask for more and get what you believe that you deserve.
Yeah. Through these challenges and these prejudices and these experiences, you were really sort of forced just to come face -to -face with the truth of what it really means to sell yourself in a job interview situation and how that starts with a sort of self -belief of an understanding of your own value.
Very much. So what about job interviews then, Natasha?
Can we get into some of the specifics of things you should do before and during a job interview.
What do you think? What are your kind of top tips, so to speak?
If we had to break it down, because clearly we don't have 20 hours to discuss it.
If we had to really break it down, I would say in the way that I put in my book, you have to understand one concept really, that there are personal strengths and there are professional strengths.
And within personal strengths and professional strengths, you must understand that when you are talking about a job interview, a job, you're going for employment, someone is going to see you as the risk and take you on for pay, that your personal strengths are not what you focus on.
You need to focus on your professional strengths.
Now, based on the type of job that you are applying for or that you've been sifted for for an interview, if this is, shall we say, a low -profile job, one in which there is not a public eye that is evaluating the outcomes of your specific job duties, a low -profile job, then you may be able to get away
with doing what I call tailored strengths versus principal strengths.
You can use your principal strains, just strains that you know you do well in a professional environment.
You can use those type of strains for any kind of job that you're doing when there is not a highly valued public eye element.
But if you're navigating, if you're trying to navigate your way up and ascend on the career ladder, the greater the pressure, the more responsibility, the higher the pay.
And those type of jobs using your, like I said, the personal strengths aren't going to work, but even using your principal strengths, the strengths that you know you do well at a job in general, that most likely will not get you over the contract or get you to the contract over another candidate who is being
considered for the same role.
The candidate that can show tailored strengths.
This is what I call them.
Strengths that are specifically outlined in the job description.
And that candidate has verifiable, proven experience handling and excelling in those strengths.
Tailored strengths, those are the ones that are going to get you to the contract.
Most of the times when I talk to my clients about how to improve your interviewing skills.
Most of the time, this is just above their head.
They've never heard of this before.
You don't have to use the terms that I'm using.
Use whatever terms you want.
The concept of using very specific, customized, detailed, tailored strengths in where you have one to three different examples for each of those identifiable deliverables that are requested in the job description if you can show that with experience that job is yours most of the times other candidates
cannot do that most of the times job candidates they narrow it down to the three best that they had in a batch and they hope for the best and when when you have a very high profile job if those last three candidates are just not up to par i guarantee you the hiring manager will start the process again.
High profile jobs. It is too much money to invest in a candidate that is a hiring risk.
So if you really focus your structure like that, look at your principles, your professional strengths versus your personal strengths, and then evaluate in your professional strengths, your principal strengths versus your tailored strengths, you will most likely have a better chance at nailing that contract.
So, yeah, the job description, the aims and objectives of the company, those are the things you've got to kind of focus on.
And then pick out the strengths that match those things.
Very much. Rather than just finding your three best things, you've got to find your three specific things.
Very much. Oh, pardon me for a moment.
There's going to be a weird noise.
Okay. that's the mail sorry okay i was wondering what kind of weird noise i was gonna get then there's a there's a chapter in your book which is called how and by can you tell us about that yes in terms of how to answer these questions i would say one of the other areas that most at least of my clients
and i'm sure for the rest of the world most of the most of those who don't get the job, they mess, make a mess of this section, is using this system of how and by.
Essentially, it states that when you are giving an answer, you need to, one, directly state what that answer is, what the response is, whatever question they ask you, state exactly what it is.
That's your how. And then after you've identified your response, you need to say exactly what it was that you did to achieve that response using the word by you can never go wrong if someone is asking you to write a policy brief right have you done this before yes i have done this before now you need
to say bye i have written policy briefings by attending the u .n general assembly and detailing different responses given by X, Y, and Z person and buy and then find another example and buy and then find an example.
One to three examples, that's it.
You have to use this structure of how and buy in order to prove that you have experience doing whatever task it is.
What do you recommend people do before a job interview?
And that is in the weeks and moments before?
Once you've been sifted for the job interview, they're going to write out to you pretty soon.
And they're going to tell you that you're going to be interviewing for whatever position it is.
If you have not really been in the interview space before, then I do encourage looking up common job interview questions that you may see in an interview.
It is helpful. if you have been in the interview space before, especially if you've been in the interview space before many times, then I, I suggest a system like this.
One, use Google to do a background research of the company that you are going to be working for.
Use Wikipedia, use the Better Business Bureau for at least for the United States.
I'm not sure what that might be for other countries.
Use anything that you can get in terms of background research.
I like to also look up New York Times articles and what's it called?
Washington Post articles about the company in any way, shape or form.
You just need a few articles.
Wikipedia, definitely read it.
But in terms of really understanding what the company is focusing on, look up articles.
Then after you've done that, go to LinkedIn and do a background research of not only the company, but the people who are going to be interviewing you if they've disclosed who the interview panel is.
If they haven't, you know what the job title is that you have.
Look for that job title interview, that job title in the LinkedIn space for that company, or find a colleague who is in that company with a similar job title to yours and look at what they are doing.
You need background research to understand what the company is really doing at the given time that you are going to be in that space in order to show that not only have you done your research, but you know that you can be an asset to help the company achieve its current goals doing whatever it is that they're
doing in that current time and space.
That is number one.
Now, the second thing, which I hope the whole world hears this, whether or not you are new to interviewing or you have done this a million times before in the past, you need to either refresh your mindset in regards to how you come across in interviews and being able to respond to questions on the spot.
Therefore, I encourage every single person who is in the interviewing space now or who is applying for jobs to make some time and apply to jobs that you know you can get, whether it's even in retail.
These are usually the ones that are the easiest to get retail or through family, friend connections, whatever it is, you know, you can get the job and you know, you don't want the job.
And that second part is also important.
It's important because the pressure of feeling like, oh, I have to do well.
You know, you don't want the job.
So it doesn't matter if you did well or not.
This is just to give you the experience of responding to questions on the spot.
Do as many of them as you can.
So you apply for jobs that you don't want or need just to practice the interview process.
100%. When I was in British government and I knew I was going to leave it, I started interviewing like this.
I had so many interviews because a good, maybe about a third of them, I knew I didn't want the job.
Some of them, they were hiring me for bullies.
I have no intention of working for the bully ever again.
Some of them wanted me to do work that I just didn't, it wasn't substantial for me.
I had done the work before when in my twenties or some of them, it was in my late teens because I had started early.
I didn't want to regress with the skills that I had to acquire.
Just not for me. It's a really good point because practice, practice, practice is just so important.
100%. Like I know from doing other things and I'll mention doing standup, that if I've got a big gig coming up that's going to be in front of a large audience, I'll definitely have to go out and prepare and prepare.
And often those little preparation shows are in front of a handful of people, you know, and it feels terrible, but you kind of get all of the terrible bits out of the way.
And then when it comes to the actual show, I'm completely in the right place.
I remember all my stuff and it's so much more enjoyable because you've got this much bigger audience to play with.
I guess it's the same sort of thing in job interviews, of course.
Practice and practice doing it in the real world and they're going to be, yeah, things that you're not necessarily interested in.
But then, yeah, when you actually come to the big interview on the big day, you'll be much more prepared because you will have been spending a lot of time practicing.
Yeah, seems so obvious, actually, when we say it now.
There's like a comedian, and I'm not, I think it might have been Dave Chappelle, but I'm not entirely certain, you can't quote me on that one.
He had said that for this special he was hosting, there were people were paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to see him.
His joke was, well, if you had just seen me in, you know, the local, the comedy club a few nights ago, it would have been 30 bucks.
it's the same exact joke and that's really that's really the case they had some of the comedians that i've watched they have said before that they use the local comedy clubs where it's just like 10 15 people there to practice out their new material before they take it to the big stage there's absolutely
no difference when it comes to interviewing you have to be prepared to answer questions on demand.
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Okay, so that's the researching the company, the interviewers, the job description in as much detail as you possibly can, actually practicing interviews by doing sort of fake ones, as it were, where you actually practice and practice and practice.
Anything else before you go into the...
What about the day of the interview?
How about that morning?
Thinking of things like the clothes that you're going to wear, the way you're going to approach the building, the interview itself.
What about on the actual day?
I even have a section in my book that is dedicated to just the actual day of the interview and I use myself as the victim to learn from.
Let's put it this way.
I had this one experience where I figured because it was New York City, I was going to print some CVs out for a job interview I would have that morning.
It's just printing out some CVs just to make sure everyone at the table has one while I'm talking.
It was supposed to be really easy.
I marked out three specific different places that I could go to print out my CV and they're all within walking distance.
And anyone that knows New York City knows that walking distance is just going to be a few more minutes away.
short end of the story i was i gave myself two extra hours i think it was i was running to get to my interview on time because the first location didn't work out the second location didn't work out the third location or maybe that was also the second i can't even remember now but the third location they
had a line uh because all the other printers were just malfunctioning the day of your interview should the only thing that you should be doing is getting to that interview spot about 40 minutes in advance that's it you shouldn't be putting together anything you shouldn't be making sure that your clothes are iron or presentable
you shouldn't be printing out things you shouldn't be doing any of that the real lesson and i put this in my book, the real lesson to learn from my experience was that I had done that one mishap.
I had done that about, what, 10, 11, 12 years into doing this kind of interview experience.
I wasn't new to the interview space.
I knew exactly what kind of things can pop up on the day of your interview that are unforeseen.
Trains being late, they just happened to be late that day.
uh, or they never arrive or the car doesn't have as much gas as you thought because someone decided to take it out the night before without telling you, I mean, the, the, the traffic that just pops up on a route that, you know, never has any problem.
Things always happen for some reason on the day of the interview.
It's like the cosmos just wants to make sure you're really the right person for the job.
So for me, what I was shocked about when I did my kind of reflection after the the interview.
I, I realized that I had been doing this for 10 years and I still made the mistake that I knew I didn't need to have made because I believed, Oh, well, I know, I know how to work around it.
No, just assume that something is going to go wrong.
So my, my advice is make sure everything is pre -planned and ready in advance.
The only thing that you should be doing is arriving to your interview spot 40 minutes, half an hour to 40 minutes in advance.
Now, why do I say that?
I say that because one, the amount of times even in New York City where things can be located on Google Maps, the amount of times that the address is on the other side of the street, but the entrance is on the perpendicular, I mean, my God, the amount of times where I swear to God, there's no number
here. And I'm trying to find the right building number and it just doesn't exist.
But then there's like this tiny little number that shoved and they just conveniently didn't tell you this in the interview acceptance level.
Like, I mean, crazy things.
Or they gave you the wrong address, but it was your responsibility to have looked at the right address and then advanced, ask them in advance, is this a mishap?
And it might have been a secretary that just kind of just did it wrong by accident.
I mean, the amount of times where in that 40 minute space I have actually needed to use all 40 minutes because I couldn't get the elevator that I had wanted.
It was there was some kind of backup that was going on.
It's still your responsibility to be in that interview seat.
If five to 10 minutes in advance, you really want to make sure that you use this 40 minutes to one, see that the space actually exists.
Two, make sure that you're there and you can give yourself time to decompress.
So you don't look flustered like you just ran 10 blocks to make sure that you got to the interview on time and you're sweating and you don't want to do that.
And three, for women like me who wear high heels, you want to make sure that you can switch your shoes out so that you have the right type of shoes while you're entering the interview space instead of the sneakers that you're wearing to run to get to the place that you need to go to yeah things like
that get the 30 minutes to 30 to 40 minutes in advance it's what i always tell uh my students who are taking exams like if it's an ielts course or something like that i'll always tell them actually visit the the examination center uh before you know make a little pilgrimage with some of the other members
of the class to find the exam center so that you know how to get in exactly what the route will be and so that you on the day that's just something you don't have to worry about because everyone feels stressed out in these moments exactly the worst feeling we've all been there that horrible feeling where you're
exactly in the street trying to find the right entrance and there's like a reception desk but it's the wrong reception desk and then the door doesn't open and you don't there's a code and you know all those stressful things are just so much worse when you've already got something on your mind like a big
interview. So you got to, yeah, get all those things out of the equation.
Yes. What about things like, what about things like the way you dress and the way you hold yourself?
How does that come into it?
Yeah, I would say, of course, it's known you should use professional attire when you're doing an interview, especially if it's a high profile job interview.
But let's say this is one of those cases where you're not applying for a high profile interview.
Let's say you're applying to work in a clothing store and maybe it's for a manager position.
Who knows? Let's say you're applying to work in a grocery store or you're applying to do some work at a local office nearby.
This is where you have to become a little bit more strategic in the clothing that you select.
Let's take the first example.
You want to work in a clothing store.
If you are trying to work, I'm not much of a clothing person.
If you're trying to work in a place like h &m right h &m clothes if you're trying to work in a place like that um but your style of dress is um punk if i think that's the style of drys it's punk right h &m is not really known for carrying punk clothes so if you come in an appearance in punk clothes attire
for a job at H &M, most likely you're not going to get the job.
If you were to come for an interview in punk clothes to a store that actually sells punk attire, most likely you would get the job.
You've just shown to your hiring manager that you understand the type of customers that come into the store and you can help them choose what they want.
So be very careful about how you choose to present yourself inside of these spaces.
Be very conscious about what the hiring manager is looking for, not just on paper, but as your actual presentation.
It's not always put on a black suit and look like you're a part of the, I don't know, security forces in some kind of secret underground space.
No, sometimes you really have to be more strategic about the apparel that you put on your body.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, definitely.
What are the typical sorts of questions that we have to deal with in job interviews?
What are the questions that they always ask us, difficult ones or even less difficult ones in your experience?
So, the ones that are always going to come up are questions like, tell us about yourself.
um tell us what are like three things you do well um let's see what are some others uh what kind of work do you like to do in general things like that those are always going to come up so be ready to answer them the ones that are tricky that uh people don't realize are also always going to come up are questions
like, do you have any questions for us?
I call this question the dreaded question because you have to be, you have to come prepared for questions for the interview panel.
That is key. And I probably should have mentioned this earlier.
If we're talking about an interview for a high profile job or whatever, your goal as an interviewer, as an interviewee, as a candidate interviewing, is to understand that this is not some kind of interrogative space.
This is a conversation that is actually, I think that is more important than the professional strength and skills.
That is key. That is talk.
This is a conversation.
You want to make sure that the way in which you're answering these questions feels conversational so that your interviewer has a very good understanding about your thought process and how you navigate these types of questions your interviewer believes may be difficult so that dreaded question of do
you have any questions for us if you did your homework and you went on wikipedia and then did your bitter business bureau and then you had the new york times and the linkedin research you should be able to come up with some questions and it doesn't have to be let's talk about the scandals of course
not you're not going to ask questions about that ask questions that are going to impact your life.
What are the type of administrative duties that are expected with this job or this company in regards to my job position?
That could be one of the questions.
The one that I like the most, what is this position like on a day -to -day basis?
And answer that question for me by telling me what last Tuesday was like.
I love putting that to my interview panel.
Every time I get a specific answer that tells me what my life is going to be like, hell or heaven, it tells me everything that I need to know.
The interview panel, they always have the same expression.
No one's really kind of asked me that question before, or something like, that is a really good question.
Let me either let this person who sits in your job do that, respond to you, or let me tell you what my kind of day was like, even though I'm not the person that would be sitting in this role or I have access to it, blah, blah, blah.
Things like that. You really have to take some time to understand what basic types of questions are going to be fine, but also difficult types of questions that are also most certainly going to be asked during the interview.
And I include those questions in my book.
The bit you said about considering it to be a conversation rather than an interrogation or an interview is an interesting one because that kind of puts you in a certain mindset doesn't it where if you see it more of a sort of balanced conversation between two people rather than one person in this high
status position and you're there like please give me a job sort of responding you know being interrogated or whatever if you see it more on equal terms then you're going to come across as being much more confident and much more sort of fluid as a person rather than just this kind of subservient person responding
to each question as it's parcelled out to you.
And that mindset, yeah, you're going to apply yourself much more comfortably to that interview.
And I suppose that's what they're often looking for, someone who's confident and someone who's able to apply themselves to the task at hand.
It's going to be impressive, isn't it?
That sort of thing, I would imagine.
What about the difficult part, which is salary, dealing with salary um questions because do they ask you do they say so you know what do you what do you what were your salary expectations for this position yeah what do you do in that situation because that's what that's often everyone's worst nightmare having
to negotiate salary yeah so let's bring it down a bit if during your first interview they're asking you about salary most likely not always most likely you must have mentioned something that would indicate to them this job that you say you want really isn't about giving added value to our team it's
about money and if it gets to that point note that you've lost that job you're not going to get it doesn't matter what you say for your salary expectations it could be bang on corner as to what they wanted so you mean don't mention salary too early you mean if you are sitting in an interview especially
if it's your first interview with whatever company do not in any way shape or form discuss salary it should not even be in your mindset they will never ask you about salary if they do and sometimes they do most of the time it is because you may have mentioned something like um well i'm really interested
in, you know, being able to do more things, especially settle down here and like get a home and maybe do that.
You've just mentioned something that has nothing to do with that company progressing, but it has everything to do with you progressing, progressing in terms of your prosperity, which is tied to salary, which you've now just told them that you're taking this job because of salary issues.
So you do not want to mention salary at all at any time.
If you do, most likely they will call you out for it by saying, well, what are your salary expectations?
And then you will know that you've lost a job.
Now there are times I have been in those interviews where they have from the get -go, they are the ones who initiated it.
I just want you to know that this job is paying between a range of X and Y.
And are you okay with that?
What are your salary expectations?
If they initiated and you know, you have not said anything at all, then they probably really do have a tight budget and they want to make sure they're not wasting their time nor yours so you can just disclose to them what your salary expectations are and if they tell you if they have already disclosed
in the job advert what the salary expectations are pick a number and stick with it within that within those confinements whatever whatever it is that they say but that should be something that you should already know before you get into the job interview space now Now, when should you talk about salary?
The only time that salary should be discussed is after they've given you the job, after they have written a letter.
It has to be in some written format, not a phone call, a written confirmed format via email or whatever traditional spaces that they want to do it written down saying, we want you for this position.
Here is the salary.
Now is your time to negotiate.
I put in some formulas in terms of how to negotiate that space and I don't have the formulas on the top of my head because that part was written about two years ago.
So essentially what I was saying is for some jobs, for some like low profile jobs, again, low profile, meaning there isn't a public eye element.
And therefore there isn't a lot of pressure on your specific job or your specific duties.
For those type of jobs, you can negotiate about maybe $10 ,000 more than what they wrote on paper.
And you still might get the job.
It's not, they're asking for negotiations.
They haven't asked you to commit.
If it's a high profile job, then you might be able to go from 30 to 50 ,000 more in terms of whatever it is that they are initially offering you.
You might be able to.
Here is where most people, and I remember doing this at one of my my first high -profile job interviews botching it here is where most people really let go of their their currency the you have to understand the company wants you the company has taken time to evaluate its three or four last candidates
whatever two came down to whatever and they chose you.
They want you. They wrote out on a piece of paper in some kind of legalized format saying, we want you.
Here is what we're offering.
They want you. Do not make the horrific mistake in thinking that you do not have negotiation power.
Now is when you have negotiation power.
Do not make the mistake in believing that after you get the job, maybe in a year or two, you can prove yourself worthy of having more money.
No, it rarely ever works, especially if you're not one of the chosen ones.
It rarely ever works.
Now is when you need to negotiate.
So go high. If you're not comfortable with going high, use the numbers that I gave just to play around maybe the first time that you're doing it because you don't know what it's like, that kind of pressure is like but understand now once they wrote that letter that is the time when you use your negotiation power
it will not come again later once you've gotten the job that is when you want to do it.
Timing is everything right?
100 % yeah and actually talking of timing it's almost time we ended because it's getting late in the day with the time difference.
We have talked a lot We've covered a lot of things.
It's been very interesting.
I've got to go and pick up my son from his daycare.
He's a long way from the world of job interviews.
Lucky one. Very lucky.
Yeah, that's right.
Maybe in a few years, I'll be able to tell him some bits of advice.
But yes, it's been very interesting talking to you about all of this.
Obviously, there's loads of stuff that we could say.
And we've really just scratched the surface.
But obviously, people could get a copy of your book.
and there'll be a link in the description, links in the description, everybody, for all the information that you could ever need.
Anything to say finally before we kind of wrap up the conversation here?
Any final points or little tips that you can give us?
The interview space, it's a nasty one.
And it feels like a lot of times that it's only if you know someone who knows somebody who knows someone that can get you through the initial job application to the interview space I am not saying that this is just going to happen overnight especially if you buy my book and then you'll be an interview
brilliant I don't know can it it's not going to happen overnight give yourself some breathing space and if you buy the book you know you use it as a guidebook maybe work on one area at a time and really build up your interviewing skills the book isn't written about how you write CVs that's another book
this book is just about the interview space alone.
And even though I may throw in some tips about, well, if you do this with your CV and that with your CV and this with your cover letter, it's really about just the interview space.
So I say that gently because we're in a time post COVID where it is wild trying to apply for jobs and it feels disheartening that you're not getting interviews.
Try and try again, but also do things like have someone who is working review your your credentials, your CV, have somebody who is in the field or hiring manager help you with whatever it is that you might be struggling with.
If you are getting interviews, your CV is good then.
Have someone train with you on how to respond or use my tactic.
Get a job that you know you can get and practice, practice, practice.
it really is a skill don't give don't give up okay all right fantastic thanks very much you thank you very much and have a lovely day in uh in maine well remembered i hope the sun comes out i am hoping to cloudy day thank you luke it was such a pleasure yes me too thanks natasha all right take care now
bye bye bye bye okay so there you go thank you very much to natasha for talking to us on the podcast today about job interviews and her experiences with job interviews and stuff like that.
If the book interests you, you'll find a link in the description.
You can check it out there and explore all the different advice that she lays out in it.
Okay. Now I said at the beginning of the episode that I would give a kind of summary of the main points that Natasha made during that conversation.
So how was it for you, by the way, listeners?
Now, the book, Natasha's book is not actually for learners of English.
It's just a book for anyone really approaching job interviews.
So it's not specifically about, you know, approaching job interviews from the point of view of being a non -native speaker of English.
But I think that the advice still counts for everyone, right?
But I wonder, you know, to what extent you were able to follow everything that was said in that conversation.
Let me, as I said, recap the main points now.
So here's a summary of Natasha's main points.
So first of all, you've got to be willing to sell yourself and apply yourself to job interview situations.
And that involves being quite sort of, you know, adopting a slightly ruthless, bulletproof attitude or approach, right which is where you don't be afraid to sell yourself don't undersell yourself right you face reality this is a chance for you to sell yourself and be confident and to know your own value know
your own personal value as a potential employee and don't underestimate your value as well so be willing to sell yourself and apply yourself to job interview situations understand the difference between personal strengths and professional strengths.
So, professional strengths are all about your ability to do things based on a proven track record of doing it before, right?
So, this is like your experiences, the specific things you can do in the job, probably based on things that you've done in the past.
In the interview, you need to be prepared to highlight tailored professional strengths.
Tailored, that means things that have been specifically designed specifically for this role, okay?
So skills and experiences which specifically match what the company does and what is required by the role, okay?
So this is tailored professional skills.
Don't just focus on what you consider to be your overall best strengths, but tailor or adapt the way you sell yourself to the specific requirements of the job you're interviewing for.
Be prepared not only to describe your skills, but to back up your descriptions with specific examples of how you learned those skills or how you've demonstrated those skills previously.
Natasha calls this how and by, okay?
Also, look up common interview questions and practice responding to them so that you get used to answering them.
Get really familiar with the typical questions so you know how to answer them, you've answered them before, And this is like doubly important in English, because obviously when you're dealing with these things in English, there's that added challenge of having to process it all in English.
But if you've done it lots of times before, and if you found the ways to express things in English, then that's going to make things easier.
For example, you should be able to go through your entire CV and explain all of it in English.
you should be able to tell the story of your career so far.
You should be able to look at every single thing in your CV and describe what you did, what you learned from it, you know.
So, practice the storytelling, your own personal storytelling.
This is important for everything, I think, not just job interviews, right.
When we meet people, when we get to know people, we always tell them our own personal story.
You know, it could be our professional story or where we come from, why we did this, why we did that, what happened, then why we moved from one place to another.
Practice telling your personal story in English because you will need to do it.
You'll need to do it a lot, especially in job interviews.
You'll need to go through your CV and explain the whole thing.
So, practice doing that a lot in English and also typical common interview questions.
You can just look at them and practice responding to them.
do plenty of research into the company and position that you're applying for google the company check wikipedia check the company's website look at the way that they describe themselves get to know the aims and objectives of the company its culture its current activities or recent activities use linkedin that's
linkedin right do you pronounce linkedin in the same way as we do in English, L -I -N -K -E -D -I -N.
In French, they pronounce it LinkedIn.
I don't know how it's pronounced in your language.
Anyway, LinkedIn, which is that professional website where people go to find employees or to find jobs.
You know, it's this networking website for professionals.
So use LinkedIn to research the specific people who work in that company or in similar positions.
Find out who you would be working with and look at, you know, look them up and look at the sorts of things they're interested in, they're doing, they're talking about.
Find out what these people are doing in this particular moment, what the company is focusing on at that moment.
This will allow you not only to demonstrate that you're fully informed about the company, the role and the people connected to it, which is impressive in itself, but also quite flattering, you know, if, here you are, if you imagine it from the side of the, if you imagine it from the point of view of the employers, that's
maybe, you know, the sort of the manager, the person who's going to be working alongside you, maybe the HR person, you know, and they're presented with someone who clearly knows all about the company, even knows about you, and has looked you up and read about you in advance, that can be quite, that's
quite flattering, isn't it?
It kind of makes you, it's quite impressive, you know.
And doing all this research also lets you tailor your responses during the interview.
Taylor, I keep using this word Taylor, not Paul Taylor, although Paul's name, surname, Taylor does actually come from the same, it's the same meaning is this word tailor.
A tailor is a person who makes clothes and they measure you.
For example, if you get a tailored suit made by a tailor, you go to the tailor and they measure you.
They take the measurements of your body and then they make a suit which is designed to fit your body.
That's what a tailor does.
A tailor tailors suits for people.
But also, when you go to a job interview, you've got to tailor your responses to the questions, which means that they've got to be designed, created specifically for that company or that role.
That's what I mean when I'm saying tailor here.
Tailor your responses during the interview.
Refresh your whole mindset and approach to job interviews so that you're really comfortable in that situation.
And this means lots of practice in advance, so that when you actually come to the interviews, you feel pretty comfortable in that situation.
Do this by getting plenty of practice of job interviews and real life practice, okay?
Apply for plenty of other jobs, even jobs that you don't really want, so that you can get lots of real world practice of doing job interviews.
Apply for jobs that you know that you can get, but that you don't want.
And you only do that so that you get lots of interview practice.
You just do loads of interviews.
You don't necessarily accept the jobs if you don't really want them.
You're just doing it for the practice, for the interview practice.
The reason that you would apply for jobs that you don't really want is because there would be no pressure, right?
You just basically spend as much time in the interview situation as you can.
You just want experience, just like a comedian who prepares for a big show by doing lots of smaller shows where there's less pressure and the stakes are not very high.
You spend time in those low pressure situations or lower pressure situations in order to prepare yourself for a much bigger show or in this case, bigger interview, which you're really targeting.
on the day of the job interview, give yourself plenty of time to get to the location of the job interview.
Make sure that you have nothing to do on that day other than get to the job interview with plenty of time.
Expect there to be delays.
Expect it to be difficult to find the office, for example, and be ready for unexpected delays, obstacles, things which can make you late or make you feel flustered that's kind of like sort of maybe even hot and bothered or just not very comfortable and not organized in your mind so prepare for those
things so that you can approach the interview cool calm and collected remove potential obstacles on the day of the interview by preparing everything in advance and giving yourself plenty of time don't for example print out your CV that day, get it done earlier.
That will help you to decompress from the journey to the interview and be in the right sort of mental and physical space to do your best.
Okay. Dress appropriately for the job you're applying for.
In terms of questions, be prepared for them to say to you, do you have any questions for us?
Okay. And this is your chance to show that you've been paying attention to what the company is doing.
So be prepared for that question.
Do you have any questions for us.
When it comes to salary, don't ask about salary too early in the process because it makes it look like you only care about the money rather than the actual, you know, tasks involved or the mission of the job position that you're applying for.
You only discuss salary after they've given you written confirmation that they're offering you the job.
That's when you actually mention salary or even negotiate salary.
Again, to practice, you could ask someone to work with you in some way, maybe someone who's already in employment, someone who might be working in a similar area, maybe a friend or a family member.
Ask this person to help you by doing things like reviewing your applications, review your CV, or to help you practice interviews with questions, right?
The job market can be tough, but keep your chin up and be prepared to try, try and try again.
There you go. All right.
There's not much more for me to add here.
I think that that's fine.
I think we're going to leave it there.
Thank you very much for listening to this episode.
Let us know your comments in the comments section.
All right. Maybe you could share your experiences of interviews.
Any good advice from your side?
Feel free to leave your comments in the comments section.
Thanks so much for listening.
Thanks so much for watching.
Speak to you very soon, but for now, it's just time to say goodbye.
Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.
Bye. Thanks for listening to Luke's English Podcast.
For more information, visit teacherluke .co .uk.
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