Janelle Booker - Living With ADHD | The Imperfects

My name is Ryan Shelton.

I'm a co -host on The Imperfects, the Jewish grandson of Austrian and English immigrants, and I grew up on and am now currently living on Wurundjeri country.

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Hello Your Highness and welcome to the Academy of Imperfection, where experts in their field share their wisdom on the subject of imperfection.

Today, psychologist and friend of Dr Emily, Janelle Booker, is here to teach us all about ADHD.

It's really hard in certain environments to have that sort of a brain, so in those environments it's a disorder.

But if you are with friends or with your partner or you're creating something, or you're writing music or you know cooking or just having an amazing idea, it's not a disorder thing.

Like it's just a different type of a brain.

So ink your quill and join students Hugh, Brian and Josh for the Academy of Imperfection.

Well, I'm very excited to let everyone know we are joined by an expert this morning who I think is going to be of great assistance and help and support to many people out there.

We're joined by Janelle Booker.

Welcome to you Janelle.

Well, thank you very much.

You and I are being reunited.

We are. After many years.

Oh really? Yes. What's the story there?

It just feels like it got really awkward.

I was waiting for you to say.

Do you want to tell them or tell me?

We got divorced about 15 years ago.

Yeah, we haven't explained yet that I am a good friend of Dr Emily.

Yes. You are from the imperfect cinematic universe.

Yes, friends with Dr Emily, that character.

And when Hugh started, it was towards the start of the Resilience Project.

Yeah, it was one of the earlier schools here.

So Dr Emily, who I just called Emily.

She mentioned that she had a good friend who was doing great things with this Resilience Project and was looking to get into some schools.

And my girls went to a particular school in Perth called Perth College.

And I mentioned it to them and they got on board and then Hugh was a bit of a hero there for many years and they just loved him.

So that was you know, reflected glory on me.

Thanks Hugh. So that's where we met.

I do remember the lunches there were just, like most schools, I would go and sit in the car by myself if I was there over lunchtime or sit in the staff room and sit by myself and don't really talk to you.

But Perth College is just like, I think they were boarders there maybe, is that what it was?

But the food was like roast chicken and just, it was wonderful lasagna.

And I have fond memories of Perth College.

It wasn't just the food.

And you can't just get roast chicken anywhere.

Anyway, people are probably wondering what Janelle's an expert in.

You are a psychologist, have been for many years now and you've really specialised in two things predominantly.

The first one being ADHD, which we're so excited to talk about this because so many people that we chat to now have been diagnosed as an adult or know someone who's been diagnosed or love someone who's been diagnosed and is so desperately wanting to be there for them and to help them.

But I think it's such a complicated world, isn't it?

It's quite a complicated diagnosis to understand.

So we can't wait to talk about that today.

The other thing that I'm really keen to talk about today is HSP, highly sensitive person.

Yeah. Do I put a disorder on that?

I don't put a disorder on the end of that.

It's called a trait.

A trait. A trait. A highly sensitive person.

Yeah, I call it the high sensitivity trait because highly sensitive person, being one myself, I don't like that term.

Like for me, it just feels a bit condescending or something.

Yeah. So the high sensitivity trait.

Okay, which is something I've never heard of before, but I feel like a lot of people will hear this and go, oh, that's me.

Yeah. That is me. That's not something to be ashamed of.

It's like, that's part of who I am.

Yeah. And so we'll talk about both of those today.

And I think that with this back on ADHD, being someone who has a partner, Jam, who has recently been diagnosed with ADHD, it's been so helpful in understanding it more for her particularly, but also for me.

And so I think it's a really, really positive thing, even if it's a little bit confronting, but we can talk about like Jam's experience and my experience with Jam as well throughout.

But I've been wanting to do, we've all been wanting to do an episode on ADHD for a long time.

Unfortunately, I feel like it does in society can get a lot of eye rolls when people hear it.

And I've heard people say like, oh, everyone's got bloody ADHD these days.

And it has this sort of, it's this weird reaction that people are having to it.

And I don't know why.

But with ADHD, I think the biggest thing I learned about ADHD is when I actually found out what it actually is, compared to what I just thought it was growing up.

Well, I guess one of the things we should tick off pretty early is what does it stand for?

Like, what is the name ADHD?

We say it a lot without thinking about what are the actual, what are we abbreviating here?

ADHD stands for Attention Deficit and Hyperactivity Disorder.

And it's extremely poorly named.

Everybody with ADHD knows this.

And most of those of us who work with ADHD is know that it's just, you know, diabolically, the wrong name for it.

So attention deficit, ADHD is don't have a deficit of attention, they have usually too much attention.

And, you know, it's getting spread in lots of different directions.

So that's, that's one.

Hyperactivity, a lot of people with ADHD are not demonstrating any hyperactivity whatsoever, although, you know, it can be in their, in their mind that they're hyperactive.

And the disorder, I mean, yes, it's a disorder in certain environments.

And I think that's the important thing to know about having ADHD is it is a disorder in certain environments.

So a lot of ADHD is get annoyed when people say that it's a superpower, etc.

Because that is denying how hard it can be.

It's really hard in certain environments to have that sort of a brain.

So in those environments, it's a disorder.

But in the rest of the world, like, you know, if you are with friends or with your partner, or you're creating something, or you're writing music or, you know, cooking, or just having an amazing idea, ADHD is have the best ideas.

It's not a disorder thing, like it's just a different type of a brain.

I think is a really nice thing to do here is maybe to think empathetically about people with ADHD.

Is there a way that we can put ourselves in their shoes so we can understand what life is like?

Absolutely. That's a great idea.

Okay, what I get you to do is just close your eyes, if you can, and then just play through as a bit of a movie, you getting up this morning, and then you know, doing what you had to do, and then leaving the house and just notice, you know, what that was like for you.

And so now what I want you to do is I want you to, now what I want you to do is I'm going to paint you a picture of what it might have been like if you had ADHD.

Okay. So the alarm goes off, and you've had to put a lot of thought into this because time doesn't come so naturally to you.

And the night before have to work out maybe like sit down and really deliberately work out how much time you needed to get ready to go out.

You may or may not have got that right.

But the alarm goes off.

And really you've had to set five alarms because it's really hard to wake up.

And so let's say you manage to rouse yourself on the third or fourth alarm.

And bear in mind, it was really hard for you to get to sleep last night.

So you haven't had a lot of sleep.

But you know, this is really important.

So you're going to get up and so you go to the bathroom and do what you need to do.

And then even though you know you've only got 30 minutes until you leave, you notice that the shower curtain is sort of missing one of the hooks.

And so you think to yourself, oh, I know where that hook is.

I know where there's a spare hook.

And so then suddenly you're in the laundry looking for the hook.

And then when you're in the laundry, you might notice something else that needs doing.

And before you know it, somebody's yelling at you that you're running late.

And so, okay, so I'm back on track.

Okay, so now I'm in the kitchen and I'm having my coffee.

And I'm just going to have a look at the front of the newspaper.

And then before you know it again, you've lost track of time.

So you quickly clean your teeth, potentially getting distracted in there as well.

And then you go to get dressed and you realize that you didn't put the washing out.

It's all wet in the washing machine.

You're feeling really crappy about yourself and you're feeling very, very stressed.

Somehow you manage to find some clothes to put on.

And now you can't find your keys.

You don't know where your keys are.

And this is going to take you, you know, five or 10 minutes of yelling because you're so stressed.

Were you watching me this morning?

And you finally get into the car and already you're exhausted because that was really hard.

And that's just the start of the day.

And that is what it can be like to have ADHD.

Yeah. Wow. It's so, I think that this is not to rub it in or anything, but that just tells me how much I don't have it, but I witness it all the time.

It's such a powerful exercise because you really do feel like how frustrating that is.

And I'm almost like, I'm almost like as you're doing it, I was almost saying like, no, no, no, no, no, no, stay on task.

Which, you know, the rest of us, we don't have a problem.

That's what I mean is the things that trip ADHD is up are the things that just come naturally to the rest of us.

We don't have to think about it.

So what a lot of people think ADHD is all about attention deficit and hyperactivity.

And it's much, much more than that.

As you probably know, right?

Because that is really like growing up, you know, and I think even now people sort of say I'm so ADHD when they can't focus on something or if you see someone who is very hyperactive, they're very ADHD.

And you're right. Like that is always, I think we can all think about the usually boy, I guess in our class in primary school who was quote, very ADHD.

Yeah. And that's why I always assumed ADHD was.

And so did I. And even having done a whole six year psychology degree, that's still what I thought it was.

Really? We did not one second on ADHD in six years.

And I hope they've changed it.

So I had the same assumptions about ADHD as you did.

Absolutely, which is terrible.

That's amazing. Yeah.

Okay, so I mean, that's the stereotypical is the boy who can't keep still for girls.

It's being a chatterbox in the classroom and not being able to stop talking, but they didn't recognize that girls had ADHD until about the last 10 years.

Wow. And this is what I've heard a lot, which is that you get a lot of adult diagnosis women who are realizing it.

Yeah. Yeah. For adults, it's much more likely that they will struggle with, so they'll struggle with attention and focus in certain circumstances.

And so if something's really interesting, they'll have no problems focusing.

ADHD is very, very good when there's a crisis or when things are really high stress and really spontaneous.

ADHD is just really shine.

Lot of entertainers, a lot of actors, ADHD is a lot of top chefs at ADHD is a lot of emergency department doctors and nurses or ADHD is it's a really great brain type to have in certain circumstances, but your whole life is not like that.

And just on that, I think just to sort of make a mental note for later, I'd also just would be I think would be really cool to go into all the kind of great things.

Yeah. That also come from ADHD brain because there are so many.

There are a lot. Yeah.

So yes, they will have difficulty with attention and focus.

And that's more than that.

They will often have difficulties with emotional regulation.

That's a really big one.

So ADHD is more a regulation disorder than it is an attention deficit disorder.

So ADHD is tend to have brains that are like all or nothing like they're so enthusiastic or have no energy whatsoever.

Right. They're either doing lots of stuff or they can't get off the couch.

And there are moods are like that as well.

So it's kind of like emotions are up and then down and then up and then down.

Yeah, I was going to ask, do we know what's happening biologically or neologically to cause this, the way the brain's working?

The brain is so complicated that no scientist really knows exactly what's going on.

But they they know that ADHD is have difficulty with dopamine.

Okay. And so that that's a big part of it.

But they also have some parts of the brain are a different size than other people's.

And they think are connected differently.

But there's research showing that there's, you know, there's a lot of genes that are different.

So like, there's a research paper that's come out recently where there's 174 different genes that seem to be common for people with dyslexia and ADHD that are not there for other, you know, that are not switched on for other people.

Yeah. So there's all sorts of differences.

Yeah, okay. Interesting.

Okay, so so there's, can we go back to the, yeah, what behaviors we might see, or what kind of struggles I guess I might have?

Yeah. ADHD is will have difficulty with what we call executive functions.

And so that's all the organizing, planning, prioritizing, etc.

It's horrible, really, that, that part of it.

I mean, I'll try not to jump in too much in terms of like my own experience with Jam's experience.

And I've spoken to her about it, and she's very well, she has what I'm sure you'll go into, but she has the inattentive form of ADHD, because there are two on it is inattentive and hyperactive, and she's inattentive.

And so for her whole life, and particularly in school, she felt really, really, like school was very hard for her.

And she was often made to feel like she was unintelligent, or like hopeless.

And even into adult years, she felt hopeless.

And I think people would often think she's lazy.

Yeah. Or, you know, didn't have ambitions or didn't have dreams, because she doesn't have this executive function, doesn't have the same ability as like I do, for example, to get up and do the thing.

And, and one of the biggest like, aha moments learnings that I had in terms of understanding Jam more and understanding ADHD is realizing that because I used to get really frustrated.

And this is just because of what society has told me is the right way to live, quote unquote, I'll get frustrated that Jam would not be able to get up with me at 6am.

And always and like exercise or, you know, she would some days like and still now will spend all day in bed and is and has all the want and dreams and talent and ambition to do all these amazing things.

But is just more often than not unable to do it.

And feels and for her whole life has felt so much shame.

Yeah, about that. Yeah, I mean, it's heartbreaking, isn't it?

Because, you know, in my experience, and I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of ADHD is and continue to and most of them are highly, highly intelligent, very creative, have a lot to offer the world and then they just keep tripping over on these things that for the rest of us just come naturally like

we don't even have to think about it.

And that's got a lot to do with dopamine.

It's got to do with dopamine and and overthinking.

So dopamine is essential for goal driven behavior.

And so if you have a steady sort of trickle of dopamine all day long, you can do all the boring things like it's not that hard like you don't want to.

But you can like if there's dishes to do you go Oh, well do them.

But if you don't have enough dopamine, then actually what happens in an ADHD brain, you know, there was an fMRI study where it's a functional MRI, so it shows activity in the brain.

So which parts of the brain are lighting up when you do something so they, you know, one by one, they put in non ADHD is and they gave them a task to do and so they measured their brain activity before the task during the task and after the task.

And what they found with the non ADHD is was their brain, you know, appropriately activated and they did the task.

Whereas the ADHD is they measured it.

And so their pre task brain activity was, you know, at one level and when they got given the task it actually dropped because it's a boring task.

And so there's certain things that will give ADHD is enough dopamine to do the thing.

Yeah, it's I mean, it's why it works so well that for Jam and I, she loves doing the cooking, could not think of anything worse than doing the washing up.

Yeah. Because there's no dopamine in that for her.

She loves the cooking and loves making a meal for people.

And I love doing the washing up like it's kind of this perfect balance that works really well.

But the other way around if I was cooking and she was washing up, she could not think of anything worse.

Yeah. And so other people think they're being lazy or just stubborn.

They think they're being lazy.

So they feel really ashamed, but actually their brain activity goes down.

So a lot of students with ADHD struggle through university because a lot of university is boring.

Like a lot of assignments are really boring.

And so they sit there and they sit there and they sit there for hours and hours they want to do it and their brain just isn't participating.

They have to work so hard just to do all the easy stuff.

And I guess it would enhance the stigma around it because like for say the dishes, for example, it's easy for someone who doesn't have ADHD to go, well, I don't enjoy it either, but we'll just get it done.

Yeah, just do it. Just do it.

Yeah. Not understanding that there's something chemically different and neurologically different going on throughout the process.

Yeah. Yeah. And then they're over thinkers as well.

It's probably a good time to show you, like I'll try and describe it as well.

So when you don't have ADHD, your brain might tend to be linear, so in a straight line and sequential.

So, you know, it's kind of like this, then this, then this, then this, right?

That's what most of us, our brains work like that.

Whereas ADHD brains are more like this global brain and it's kind of this and this and this and they all connect together.

And so we might be aware of four things.

They're aware of 20 and they're all connected.

And so for us, we think, okay, so people are coming over, I'll do this and then this and then this and then this and it's all done, but then they don't know where to start.

Like, it's like, it's all equal.

And, you know, they're of equal importance because they're not linear and sequential.

And so they can't work out which one's more important than the other thing.

That's interesting because it's like, there's a bunch of times what Jam will do, and I think she does this because she's been told this helped is she'll make a list, like she'll write a list of all the tasks that need to be doing.

But I wonder if that's actually an overwhelming thing.

If to then for her to look at that huge list of like 30 things that she needs to do in her life at that particular moment, it might be really, is that hard for her to prioritize or to tick those off sequentially like I would?

Yeah. Well, it can be.

So everyone's different and we haven't, I haven't said that yet, but every ADHD brain is different.

And so some ADHD is just cannot live without a list and others will get very overwhelmed.

So a lot of ADHD is no overwhelm, you know, pretty intimately.

And because their brains just overthink everything.

But yeah, that can be a really hard thing.

So, you know, for kids and teens and adults, prioritizing a list can be really hard, which to the rest of us, we're just like, well, that's a no brainer.

Of course, you would do that before you would do that.

But for them, it's, it's not always that obvious.

It seems implied in what you said, or maybe it isn't, but something I've connected out of that was that I imagine given the right conditions, it makes total sense that ADHD brain or personal ADHD would be incredibly creative.

Yeah. Because you're pulling rather than working in a linear fashion, you've got access to all these things concurrently, if you can pull them all together or pull some of the strands together.

That's kind of what creativity is in a weird way of pulling dissonant ideas or different ideas that don't seem like they'll go together.

And they do. Yeah. I think what you would find is that ADHD is our way overrepresented in creative fields and innovative fields.

And you would find certainly in Hollywood, but also in Silicon Valley and, you know, all sorts of places where innovation is important, you'd have ADHD is for sure.

Yeah. And it's often so cruel, or it seems so cruel, particularly for artists or self -employed artists who have this incredible brain and talent and creativity, but then they're also expected to run their own business.

That's where it comes.

It's unbelievable. Like because anyone who's run their own small business, or worked within a business, it's like, you know, there's so many things to think about and particularly organization tracking things, whatever it takes.

But then for an artist who might be this incredible painter or whatever, for them to also be expected to run their own, like it's near impossible.

Well, it is. And then they're avoiding opening their emails, right?

Because of all the shame and just writing an email because of the perfectionism is another thing that a lot of ADHD is struggle with.

So it quickly becomes unmanageable.

And that's why it's really great to be able to delegate those tasks out.

And in a relationship, that's good.

Like the way that you do the washing up and Jam does the cooking, that's a great way to solve it.

But professionally, it's good to be able to delegate things out.

I mean, you know, there's a lot of very successful CEOs who have ADHD, but you know, they've got to, they really rely heavily on an assistant to do all of the executive function stuff.

Yeah, I'm imagining like the kind of classic cliched representation of a CEO, like a powerful CEO, walking into a meeting and making all these calls and decisions, then they leave and then their assistant or whoever has to, everyone else has to work, has to figure out how to do it, but they have the big ideas,

but don't actually have to put it into practice.

Yeah, I mean, that's ideal.

That'd be great. Yeah, absolutely.

Or you think of a lot of sports stars or sports, you know, like elites have ADHD.

And I just remember Michael Phelps, you know, he's the American swimmer.

And his mother had him on 15 minute increments in terms.

She was organizing his whole life for him, you know, and he knew what he had to be doing every 15 minutes, but she was getting it all done in the background, or other people were, so that he could focus on what he was excellent at.

I wonder if it's worth now to talk about like the difference between hyperactive and inattentive, and I know there's many variations of those.

But is that fair to say that they're the sort of main two differing types?

Well, they took in the DSM five.

That's that psychiatric diagnostic criteria, they have identified three.

But before that, there was two.

So they just keep shifting it around a bit.

The first one is the predominantly hyperactive and impulsive type.

So that's the stereotypical one.

The second one is the predominantly inattentive type, which used to be called ADD, but now is ADHD inattentive type.

And then the third one is combined.

So it's all of those.

So some people who work with ADHD is think that everybody has the combined type, because even if outwardly you're not hyperactive, your brain is hyperactive.

So a lot of ADHD is that another struggle that they have is just their brain is going all the time.

And it's like there's, you know, 10 TVs on all the time, just ideas, ideas, thinking, thinking, thinking.

But the outcome or the that would present potentially because of the overwhelm of that, that they're inactive because they're unable to act because of the amount that's going on inside.

Is that is that maybe, maybe, but maybe there's just other things going on for them that they don't outwardly show it.

You know, that like physically, they're not showing the hyperactivity because some some ADHD is just, you know, don't have enough energy to get through the day and others can't sit still.

And, you know, you can clearly see that they're hyperactive.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is, I feel like I've heard this pushback rightly.

So I believe, from what I understand, with conditions like say autism or OCD where someone might say, I'm a little bit that and it's like, well, you either are or you're not.

Is it the same thing with ADHD as far as you either have a brain that is ADHD presenting or you're not, you can't just have a little bit of it?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Makes perfect sense.

And that's a really good point.

All of us will struggle with attention, you know, from time to time, especially when we're tired or we've had a lot of sort of demands on us, particularly now I think with screens and kids growing up, they probably are a lot, I don't know, this is not my area, but I'm guessing there are a lot of attention issues

or probably for adults too, when there's, you know, too much screen time, but that doesn't give you, that doesn't mean that you have ADHD because it's all, it's this whole big picture.

So it's not just about the attention, but you're right.

You know, it's a very invalidating thing to say to someone, oh, we're all a little bit ADHD, aren't we?

And so a lot of ADHD is get told that.

Yeah. Is there a strong link between people with ADHD and mental health?

Is that depression?

Anxiety. I mean, I kind of assumed that.

But is it a really significant number of people with ADHD experience?

Yeah. I don't know what the, what the figures are.

All I know is I've only ever worked with one ADHD who hasn't struggled with anxiety.

That just seems to go hand in hand.

A lot of, just as like a sidebar, a lot of younger people will start smoking weed, marijuana, to just, to dampen that anxiety down, which is another reason, you know, that it's good to get treatment for ADHD.

Yeah. We actually had actor Jackson Tozer who on the podcast who spoke about his addiction to marijuana and his ADHD as well.

And we can link to that in the show notes.

Yeah. But a lot of them do struggle with depression as well.

And, and as I mentioned before, their mood can be really, really fluctuating very, very rapidly.

And so some, hopefully it's not happening quite so much anymore, but a lot of women were diagnosed wrongly with bipolar disorder because it kind of looked like that.

But with ADHD, it's kind of the, you know, they can be top of the world today.

And then, you know, maybe five hours later, their moods just dropped.

And there's, there's something that ADHD has experienced that's being called rejection sensitive dysphoria RSD.

And that is, that is an aha moment for a lot of ADHD is when that gets explained to them.

And so what that means is the dysphoria means unbearable.

And the rejection sensitive refers to any just hint of rejection.

So if someone says no, or if someone slightly appraises something about them in not a positive way, then their mood can just like plummet just like that.

And just suddenly they're down in the depths of despair, it feels unbearable.

And so it can be really hard living with an ADHD as a partner, or as a child, you know, one of your children, you got to be so careful about how you say things.

Because that RSD is really, really painful.

And then that gets in the way.

Okay, so on that, and this is a question for you, Janelle, but also Ryan, if you want to answer as well.

And there's absolutely no pressure to but I'm not an expert.

I think you will be on the question.

What I'm going to assume that there's a lot of without the HD that can put a lot of strain on a relationship.

Is that something that you talk about a lot with your clients?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it can put a lot of strain depending on what's happening in the relationship and how much communication is going on between the two parties.

And again, the flavor of the ADHD and how that sort of playing out.

Yeah, day to day. Yeah, it's, it's, I can't tell whether because jam only got diagnosed and really only sort of came into her slash our life a couple of years ago.

So it's still pretty early days.

But before she knew it was ADHD, it was, you know, she's had anxiety for a long time and bouts of depression, which has been a struggle.

And that of course, that puts a strain on on a relationship.

But I think what the harmful thing that I have done in the past and sometimes still do, unfortunately, in like a, you know, regret in a moment where I'm not like concentrating, or I'm not like, at my best, is I place impossible expectations on her on what she can do.

So as her partner and someone who loves her so much, because I want to see her succeed, and not just in work, just like I want to see her happy, I get frustrated when she can't get out of bed.

So if she's if she's like, if she's in bed, and she and she had plans to do something, and she's like, I can't do it, even though now I know, like, logically, and I know theoretically why that's happening.

I definitely used to get really frustrated because I was like, Oh, but I feel I just know you'll feel so much better.

If you get up like, come on, just let's just let's just go for a walk.

It's like asking someone with a broken leg.

Come on, you'll feel better if we just go for a walk.

Don't bring your crutches.

Let's just go for a walk.

And they're like, No, I literally have a broken leg.

It's like, stop making excuses.

Like that, that is am I right?

Yeah, that and that is what it is like.

And then the problem with that, and I certainly don't want to speak like I'm the expert here, but in my in my experience, what happens is the less I accept her staying in bed, the more shame she feels.

So it actually makes it worse.

The more I the more I get frustrated about her not getting out of bed, the more she feels hopeless and ashamed, because she's not able to do the thing that she thinks that she should do.

She feels shame. And she's like, she's like, I wish I could do that.

And for a brain like mine, or a neurotypical brain, that makes no sense.

It's like, what are you talking about?

All you have to do is literally just like swivel your body and just get out of bed.

Like it's so hard to wrap your head around.

But it's absolutely real.

Yeah. And and it's, and I think the the better I get at this, the better I get at like being the partner of an ADHD, the more accepting I am, and it feels so against everything I have learned and everything society has told me, which is like, get up and do the thing and you'll feel good and you'll succeed

and you'll be productive and you'll achieve.

And then everyone will pat you on the back and say, great job, you're living a great life.

So anyone so the fact that Jam, the person who's like, in bed, isn't doing those things, all the voices in my head are saying like, this is, you can help her, you can just just just convince her, come on, you can save her, you know.

And and it's just the more I learn about it and the more practical experience I get, I guess, the more I just accept it and just love her just as much in bed as I do when she's like being productive, the better it is.

And it's sometimes really, really hard to do that.

But ultimately, that is in my experience, that is that is the better path.

Wow, that's so skillful.

That response. Well, it's it's it's taken me a while to to do it.

And also we talk about it a lot.

Good. And Jam does so much research and watches so many memes, which is actually a pretty good place to start.

If you if any of these symptoms are resonating with you, like there are some brilliant meme accounts like on Instagram of people with ADHD who you'll watch and you'll be like, oh, my God, I've also not unpacked my suitcase for two weeks after getting home from a holiday or whatever it is.

You know, anyway, I'm talking way too much.

But yeah, it's I'll hand it back to Janelle.

Well, I that that was exactly that was a lovely snapshot of how hard it can be in a relationship.

Well, that's depression and, you know, exacerbated by overthinking, I would say for her and the lack of dopamine.

Yeah, there's other ways that that a relationship can be affected.

Obviously, there's lots of other ways.

Another thing is ADHD is tend to not all, but a lot find it difficult to keep track of time.

And so a lot will be running late a lot.

And that can cause a lot of problems for a neurotypical partner to always be the one going get in the car like we're, you know, half an hour late, etc, etc.

So that can that can be tricky.

Having a house that is untidy and disorganized in a car that is untidy and disorganized, or I'm driving without a license because I can't bear to open the mail or whatever, you know, like life can get derailed when you have ADHD.

So I'm guessing with a lot of what you've described there, there's a fair bit of shame attached to ADHD and not just as an adult, but I'm guessing from a young age story start to develop in an ADHD as mind about who they are and their shortcomings and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, some of the stories I've heard are absolutely heartbreaking for these gorgeous humans who just so conscientious.

That's something I haven't mentioned that ADHD is tend to be high on conscientiousness.

They don't want to let people down.

They're very, very aware of what other people think about them.

But it was William Dodson who published that a child of 12 with ADHD will have been criticized or corrected 20 ,000 times more than a child without ADHD by the time they're 12.

So it's like, hurry up, put that away.

What are you doing?

Put that down, you know, and they can feel nagged and corrected and shamed.

That's because they're behaving differently than is expected of a normal, quote unquote, normal child.

Yeah. It's like, you know, get dressed.

I've told you to get dressed.

What are you doing?

Because their attention has got them wandering somewhere else and, you know.

Yeah, it's really sad.

And that's just by 12.

And then you've got to get through high school.

Yeah. And then, you know, the rest of your life.

So they just add up, you know, all of these shames.

And in my experience, people will have particular memories that just will not go away.

And then when something goes a little bit wrong, they might say, if it was me, well, Janelle never finishes anything or Janelle's always, you know, hopeless, Janelle can never do anything.

And that's the voice in their head.

Yeah. I mean, that is Jam's experience, you know, without wanting to speak too much for her.

But she, yeah, she's been she was school was so hard because she wasn't able to do the things in the same way that the other kids were doing and really developed this belief that she was I hate the word dumb, but you know, that's what she was told.

Like literally she was told that by teachers and people in her life.

And that's of course, you'd get told that enough.

You believe it. And it's I think it's into well into adult years, she truly believes that she's not able to do things and she's not smart enough.

And it's like, I know that's not the case.

And people who love her and truly understand her and they all know that and it's easy to see that looking out that her belief is not that.

It's really hard to heal that that shame.

You brought up kids being told these negative things about them so many times.

I'm curious for parents who, and I know children isn't exactly your area, but what age do symptoms start to present themselves?

And should you, if you're starting to think some of these traits seem to be present in my child, what age should you be starting to look at diagnosing a child?

Yeah, because I think a lot of, as I've said, a lot of children are not obvious.

A lot of ADHD is are not obvious, but I guess, you know, once they start primary school is probably you'd be expecting children to follow a certain trajectory.

And if they're not, that wouldn't be bad to have a conversation with the teacher.

But certainly just keeping an eye on it instead of just going, oh yeah, no, I don't think that's an issue, but just keeping an eye on it and just being aware.

It can show up in friendships.

So a lot of kids with ADHD will have, you know, struggle with friendships or it might be that they're struggling with learning, you know, or just getting their homework done.

Hopefully not many, you know, year threes are getting homework anymore, but just keeping an eye on it unless it's getting really a problem.

So if this child is having, you know, a lot of emotional problems or, you know, like, if this is really, really affecting them in a negative way, they might be oblivious to it and it's not really affecting them.

You can just watch that.

But if it is really affecting them, it's, yeah, take them to the GP.

Let's get this sorted.

And, you know, I don't have a medical background, but the conventional understanding is treating ADHD with medication if medication is warranted for a child or a teenager is actually better than the alternative, you know, because kids will find other ways of coping.

And a lot of those are not good.

I'm not talking about little kids, but teenagers.

But yeah, the conventional understanding is treatment earlier rather than later, because kids, especially as they go through, and all this shame starts to build, and they will find other ways of self -regulating.

And a lot of ADHDers will become binge eaters as teenagers or they will be doing risky behaviours, et cetera, just to manage everything that's going on.

So, and it's completely understandable that parents don't want to go down the path of a formal assessment and then maybe medication.

But maybe just educating themselves a little bit, asking, you know, asking the GP for referrals for people that they can trust in terms of finding out more about what it's like to take medication, because a lot of people are actually very scared.

And I've worked with, you know, young adults where their parents keep sort of saying, oh, you don't want to keep taking medication, you'll become a drug addict.

Well, that doesn't happen.

And you're much more likely to become a drug addict if you're not taking the medication, you know, and you need something to get you through life.

That's interesting.

Yeah. You mentioned then, binge eating, potentially being a way of coping, I guess, for teenagers with ADHD.

Is there a link between or higher prevalence of eating disorders with people with ADHD?

Yeah, there seems to be a high correlation between particularly untreated ADHD and binge eating.

Binge eating is really regulating for a lot of people.

So if I'm overwhelmed and distressed and I'm just feeling untethered, eating food can feel really, you know, calm, like regulating.

Yeah. But also it gives me a lot of dopamine.

And so like food and people don't binge on salad.

You know, they're binging on all of the high calorie junk food, basically.

And so there's a lot of dopamine in sugar and fat.

And so that can also be a coping mechanism.

So people who aren't treated with medication can, and with other strategies, can turn to food.

And then of course binge eating, as other sort of compulsive behaviors, become a little bit addictive.

And so then the brain knows that if it's feeling a certain way, that eating those foods is going to calm things down.

And then so then they, you know, a binge occurs and then some people purge, some people don't, but there's always shame afterwards.

And so then it becomes a shame cycle as well for a lot of people.

Yeah. I imagine addiction must be an issue for ADHD as well.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

So there's a high correlation between ADHD and becoming addicted to various things.

So another thing is online shopping.

Like spending money is a really, really common one for ADHD.

There's a lot of dopamine there.

And also, you know, all of the, when our brain is feeling very, very stressed and very low energy, it's a very unpleasant state to be in.

And so we will reach for things that numb us out.

And so ADHD is, for whatever reason, are more prone to doing that sort of thing.

So it might be alcohol or drugs, or it might be risky behavior, or it's food or online shopping or computer games, etc.

Yeah. It's really common to have problems with those things.

So you mentioned friendship with younger people, with kids there.

What are the challenges of friendship as an adult with ADHD?

Yeah. Good question.

This is another source of shame for a lot of ADHD is not being able to keep up with texts.

That's a big thing for ADHD is, they might be feeling overwhelmed just getting through the day and then they get all of these texts from friends and then they don't know what to say.

They want to think about it.

They don't want to be misconceived.

And they pile up. They pile up, they get overwhelmed and then they're ashamed.

I'm such a bad friend based on years of experience of doing similar things.

And so then they just go, oh, well, I guess that friendship's over because they're just so hard on themselves.

And then they might summon up one afternoon, they've summoned up enough energy and the courage to respond to all of these.

And then immediately they get texts back and they go, oh, I'm back to square one again.

And so just things like that, the rest of us can just manage big deals.

And so a lot of them feel like they're terrible friends because they, or they're late or they just cancel at the last minute.

And so if you are someone who understands ADHD and you love people with ADHD, you're much more likely to be tolerant of that.

But other people, and maybe show it on their face or in their tone of voice or something, that they're not happy with you because this is the second time you've cancelled and they don't understand.

They don't know the bigger picture of what's going on behind the scenes.

I think Ryan's story from earlier leads really well into the question of, you might not be in an intimate relationship with someone with ADHD, but the chances are you know someone or you work with someone who is an ADHD -er.

What are some things that neurotypical people could start taking on in the behaviour and the way they interact to make life a bit easier for people with ADHD and allow them to be themselves more and live more comfortably?

Great question. If it's like a colleague or an employee, I think a lot of conversations are just regular conversations, but a lot of tolerance and just that flexibility, knowing that there are different ways of doing things.

Because ADHD is, in my mind, not a deficit.

It's just a different sort of way of doing things, a different way of interacting with the world.

And as you mentioned earlier, Josh, just so much potential in terms of creativity and innovation.

And they're going to find boring stuff hard.

In our field, as psychologists, there's a lot of psychologists coming out now saying, you know, like being diagnosed with ADHD.

And they find, this is a generalisation, they find writing all of the case notes really, really hard because it's not very interesting.

You know, the interesting thing is being with the client and then the client goes, that's the dopamine hit, and then the client goes and now you've got three sets of notes to write.

So I guess the thing is, just helping them feel free enough to say what they need.

And a lot of, I often, well, times are changing, there's not as much stigma anymore.

But I have often given people the suggestion to not tell their employers that they have ADHD, but to articulate what they have difficulty with and maybe some ways that the employer could accommodate that.

So I have difficulty with getting projects done.

So can you give me shorter deadlines or can we meet regularly on this?

So finding those workarounds to help them be successful.

Is there a reason you say to them don't tell your employer about ADHD?

Because we don't know how the employer is going to respond to that information.

And I think just in the last five years or so, there's been a lot more understanding about ADHD before that people had, you know, it had great stigma, ADHD.

But you know, the thing is we can't be confident that if, let's say I've got ADHD, and I say to my boss, you know, I have ADHD, and I really appreciate these accommodations.

And then I'm up for a promotion against somebody else who doesn't have ADHD.

There's no guarantee that that person, not knowing anything about ADHD, might think, oh, Janelle can't, you know, she's got ADHD, we don't know if she can handle it.

But obviously, it's different for each person.

So if someone gets a diagnosis, how do you get a diagnosis first?

And then a question, another question off the back of that.

So anyone listening to this thinking, gosh, this is standing a lot like me, or maybe some of it sort of resonates.

What should they do?

So you go to your GP, and you ask to be referred to a psychiatrist.

That's if you're an adult.

If you are the parent of a child, you would either see a pediatrician or a child psychiatrist.

I don't know about the rest of Australia, in WA, we don't have enough pediatricians.

So it's almost a lost cause to try and see, which is tragic.

But as an adult, you go to your GP, and you get referred to a psychiatrist.

And you know, each state is different.

But there's likely to be a number of months before you get in and see your psychiatrist.

And then the psychiatrist would oftentimes over two sessions, which would do the assessment and the diagnosis, and then would start trialing your medication.

Can I just jump in and just point out how cruel it is that the ADHD person trying to get a diagnosis is expected to go through the rigmarole of making an appointment following up.

Like it's kind of a bit like, like, laughable in like a dark way.

I've seen you as like the person with the broken leg going, you're going to have to run to the doctors.

We'll only accept if you run through the door.

Exactly. Because it's like that executive lack of executive functioning means it's like, what are you talking about?

I have to like make an appointment with a doctor.

And then with the, once I've got that, then I have to make another appointment and then I have to wait months.

Yeah. And then not only that, when you get your script for the stimulant medication, they'll only release a month at a time.

And if you miss your date, then you miss out.

And it's just like, you know, these ADHDs struggle.

This is just another layer of complexity for them.

But that's the way that is.

That's the way it is.

And so they will see a psychiatrist or then do the assessment and then they'll suggest different medication.

What type of medication do people try and what does it do to them?

Yeah, good question.

So there's really only two stimulant medications.

There's methylphenidate, which is also called Ritalin, which a lot of people have heard of.

And there's dexamphenamine.

And so in both of those, there's the short acting and long acting.

And so there's different names for different ones.

But what they'll do, what psychiatrists tend to do is they trial you on one and see how you go.

If that is working for you, then that's great.

And if it's not working for you for whatever reason, and what can happen is it can just like raise heart rate, etc.

And give you like an edgy, racy feeling.

Or it's interfering too much with whatever, sleep or whatever.

Or maybe it's not having the impact that you want, the therapeutic effect, so then they might trial you on the other.

But really, there's just two options there.

But there are a couple of other non stimulant medications that they can trial to.

And what do people say to you who have started taking medication and felt that it's worked for them?

How does that change their lives?

Some people have a really dramatic experience and they say this is life changing.

And why didn't I ever do this before?

And is this oftentimes people say to me, is this what other people's brains are like?

And I've gone my whole life and this is, it feels unfair to them that other people have had this advantage their whole lives.

So what can happen is it can just sort of quieten their brain down so they're not having so many thoughts at once.

Maybe they're just having one thought at a time, which is quite nice for a lot of people.

And then also, they can focus on things that aren't interesting.

So that is good. But some of them, they will have that emotional regulation.

So they're not like this while their medication is working.

They're more like this, which is quite nice.

And mood as well can be affected.

So not having the highs and lows in mood, which is pretty phenomenal.

But it doesn't help with the executive function.

So it doesn't help with organization, prioritization, time management, planning.

Because they're all skills that you have to develop over time, so to speak?

It just doesn't help with those.

So that must be not a dopamine related thing, I would say.

Yeah. It's other things going on.

Yeah. But, you know, brains that are struggling with those things have great strengths in other ways.

So yeah. Well, let's talk about the strengths.

Yeah. And I wonder if this is a good sort of bridging topic to get to the strengths is hyper focus.

So, well, maybe if you could explain the concept of hyper focus and how it shows up for ADHD.

Yeah. So some people will say, you know, such and such can't have ADHD because they can really focus on this one thing.

But usually that's because that person is hyper focusing.

So hyper focus just seems to be like an absolute flooding of dopamine if the person is really interested in something.

And so that is a fantastic skill to have if the thing that you're really interested in is aligned with your work, for example, like if you're a creative person and that, you know, that is what you're hyper focusing on.

That's really, really helpful.

But it can get people stuck because if they're focusing, you know, hyper focusing on something that is not part of what they should be doing, that can be tricky.

Because the because it's like the hyper focus, like in Jam's case, she gets extreme hyper focus on things.

And every now and again, it like overlaps with something she needs to do.

But more often than not, it's like it's like art deco lamps from the 1960s.

And she'll spend which she has sent me on Instagram.

Really? Yeah. And she'll spend days.

And and, and this is another thing that if you if you look at your computer screen and see 1000 tabs open, that's a diagnostic one right there.

Yeah, there's an ADHD.

Yeah. So that's a so she gets really and often it's not about anything productive or unnecessary.

It might be like this photographer from like the 1930s who grew up in the suburbs and made you know, and then suddenly Jam knows everything about this guy.

Yeah, everything for no other reason other than she had to know.

Yeah. And she was interested.

Yeah. And so she just does extreme deep dive research to so many different topics.

I actually think ADHD is would be excellent quizzes.

They are. They know a lot about a lot of things.

Yeah. But what the difference between that and let's say autism, where autism, you might have a special interest.

The special interest doesn't tend to change, whereas ADHD is they'll love it and love it.

And then it's boring.

And then they'll have to find something else.

And then that gets boring.

And then yeah, I could be wrong here.

And I hope this isn't offensive.

If it is, we'll cut it out.

But it seemed the more I learned about neurodiversity, it seems like everything that has ever been achieved by the human race in developing something new would have been done by someone with a neurodiverse.

Yeah, I would agree.

A condition or diagnosis of some.

I just think no one else is capable of the kind of focus and attention and work required in a specific area to develop it.

And obsessiveness. Yeah.

But as the opposite to what I just said, or not the opposite, but as a as a kind of weight or a part of the story, I feel like we put such a such a premium on people's ability to do boring tasks.

Yes. Like if you're not willing to do that, it's like therefore the idea of that you're lazy or you don't work hard enough or all that kind of stuff comes in.

I think about it's not exactly the same, but I think about the way that doctors still have quite a and that's a fascinating story about why this is the case, but surgeons and doctors still go over this old idea that you've kind of got to do this ridiculous amount of hours and long shifts.

Part of it is perpetuated because, well, I had to do that grunt work.

So you've got to do it too.

Rather than it being maybe always the optimal way of operating.

And that idea, I think permeates across many different workplaces where it's like, well, I had to get all that boring grunt with that done.

So you're not getting away without doing it if you want to get to the next stage.

Whereas if we were thinking about optimizing our workplaces and just our environment and life, that it's just such a broken idea to have such a premium on boring work.

And school is boring.

And when you think of this interest -based brain that is capable of so much and they sat down in a chair and they're told to just sit there and listen.

For six hours. Yeah, for six hours.

And they're not allowed to look out the window, they're not allowed to get distracted.

They have to just keep looking and they can't focus because it's not interesting.

And so then their mind is just like they're off, you know, somewhere else.

And then that can create anxiety for them because if they get called on, they get punished and shamed.

And let's not educate our children in this way.

And not only ADHD students.

Yeah. Wouldn't it be incredible when every child starts school, they all, there's an assessment on all of them and they work out how their brain works.

And then, and here's how we will treat you because of that.

Because it will get the best out of you and then it will produce the best result for society.

Absolutely. You know, a lot of ADHD is not all because some are excellent with their memory, but a lot of ADHD is, are very disadvantaged in exams because that's not how their brain works.

They can't just fill it full of information and then just go and retrieve it as needed.

So they'll know it all and they get to the exam.

If they're not allowed to have notes, which is often the case, like it makes no sense, does it?

Because in the real world, we can access information everywhere.

So this old fashioned way of educating people, it's not good for any child, I would say, but certainly ADHD students do not get to demonstrate what they are capable of.

Like Jam. Yeah, which reinforces their feeling that they're not smart.

Oh, absolutely. And the shame.

Yeah. You're feeling very inspired to start a school.

God, you're busy. I'm so, I'm keen to talk about like all the, why Jam is so great as well.

Oh good. And I want to, and there's so many reasons and I, that's why I think it's a good way, good reason to talk about all the strengths that come from having an ADHD brain because there are so many.

And I would just hate people to listen to this and get really, I mean, I know it's, it is scary and confronting, but there is so much good.

And I can go into it more, but I genuinely believe that if Jam didn't have ADHD, I wouldn't have fallen in love with her.

Because of the person that she is, her level of empathy is through the roof and she believes, and I think that's true.

I think a big part of that is because of her beautiful brain.

Absolutely. Empathy is, you know, one of the strengths that stands out in almost all ADHD is I've ever had contact with.

And when I, I started learning about ADHD because back at, you know, I was a counselor at a university and one semester I had five or six students that I was just working with individually as a psychologist who had ADHD.

And we worked so hard on their goals so that they could overcome a lot of what we've been talking about.

And at the end of the semester, we'd got nowhere and they were feeling ashamed.

And I was feeling like, I don't know what else I can do to help them.

And I said to my manager, I wonder if I put them all into a group together, because to get to university, if you have ADHD, you've already overcome a lot of stuff.

You're doing really well to get to university and then university is hard.

It doesn't matter how smart or motivated they are.

So that's what I started to do is I started a group for ADHDers.

And then that very first group, I think I had about 12 ADHDers and we met weekly for 10 weeks.

And it was just like the pinnacle of my professional experience.

Oh, why? And then I went on to run about 20 groups there and brought in colleagues and they started to, and then we sold the group to another university.

And now it's been sold, you know, to various universities around Australia.

What was it about then?

Yeah. What was it? It's I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it.

It's just joyous because you've got these brain, like these people around you who are so empathic, you're right, so empathic and tuned in and kind.

So you can be empathic and not kind.

ADHDers are empathic and kind.

And, you know, they get a lot of dopamine from helping other people.

That's one of the things that gives them dopamine.

And so they're so gorgeous towards each other.

But also they're so creative and bright, you know, and they're all different.

And so in my brain just, you know, like lights up when I'm in a room of ADHDers.

And so I ran about 20 of those groups at that university.

And then since then, I've run it several times with teenagers as well.

And it's always the same experience.

It's not dependent on the person.

It's just like you bring a group of ADHD and I ran groups with non ADHD.

So it's not like I just went, Oh, I've discovered running groups and that's awesome.

You know, like I've run a lot of groups, but it's not the same.

And every single person I've spoken to who's run that group just has the same, you know, experience of this is just the pinnacle of my professional career because of the people and the brains.

Amazing. Well, we'll link to that group in the show notes.

Okay, so empathy through the roof.

What are the other strengths that you say?

Creativity is another one.

And being very bright as well and kind.

Yeah, pretty good. Yeah.

Yeah. Awesome. It's, yeah, I mean, like it's, and jam is all of those things.

Yeah. But is that also, can it be tiring?

Because I know for jam, she sometimes finds it quite exhausting because it is whether masking is like a common thing.

Do you mind talking a bit about that?

Yeah, masking is a term that is used with autism as well.

And it's just a way of pretending that you're neurotypical, basically.

Yeah. Well, Fern Brady talked a lot about that when she was here.

Right. Yeah. And so, you know, one example of masking would be, you know, let's say I have ADHD and we're having a conversation even here, and I'm not talking, but, you know, let's say Hu's talking.

I have to like pretend that I'm paying attention and like, you know, a lot of people with ADHD will lose focus even in the middle of a conversation just with two people.

So they have to mask that.

They have to mask. They have to be aware of where their eyes are at all times.

So that doesn't look like they've drifted off somewhere.

And so that's just one example of masking.

But yeah, they're trying to look neurotypical.

You know, another aspect of ADHD is that this sensory sensitivity, I think that's the case for a lot of neurodivergent brains is just being wide open to, you know, lights and sound and people and empathy.

You know, if you're high in empathy, you're wide open to everybody's emotions as well.

Can I ask about the importance of the right diagnosis in that I imagine that things like TikTok and Instagram and the internet in general, in some ways is incredibly helpful for people who had no idea and start to see, as Brian, you were saying earlier, memes and things that start to go, hang on, maybe

I'm not alone here.

Maybe there's and finding communities out there of like -minded people, but I imagine it could also have a ill effect in that people could be misdiagnosing themselves and then going down a path of sort of self -treatment that is not actually what they've got.

So you might say, as many of the things you've said today, could present in people who don't have ADHD, it might be nice to hear why it's important to follow through with a official diagnosis.

Yeah. So getting a diagnosis or seeking a diagnosis for ADHD can be really expensive energy wise and it can be really expensive financially, but it can also be really helpful, you know, to further just like add to your strategies for dealing with, you know, everyday life.

So it gives you more tools in the toolbox, I guess, in terms of dealing with it.

Absolutely. And you're right, Josh, that some people, it might just be anxiety.

Anxiety can present like ADHD in terms of focus, et cetera, and maybe not being able to, you know, life becoming unmanageable for whatever reason.

So that is one example.

So you might have social anxiety and that might be looking very similar as well.

Or there might just be a lot of stress on you and it can affect a lot of, you know, your brain's functions.

So if you go to a psychiatrist or a pediatrician, if you have a child, they're going to do what they call a differential diagnosis and psychiatrists and pediatricians are very good at this.

So they will just ask you a lot of questions.

So what they're looking at is not only is it possible that you have ADHD, what they're saying is it possible that it could be explained by something else.

Yeah. So that is, yeah, very important.

Yeah. And then I guess it's sort of implied that you've got to know what it is to put in an action plan to make your life better.

And if you put in the wrong action plan and it's misdiagnosed or self -diagnosed, and I recognise, as you correctly said, it's energy expensive and just expensive expensive.

But yeah, I just think it's an important thing to emphasise the importance of a genuine diagnosis.

Absolutely. And a lot of people that I work with and they come and see me because they think they have ADHD, and then we might work on that.

They may not be ready yet to go down the path of a diagnosis.

And that might take a couple of years until they're ready to get to that point.

And they say, yeah, I think that's where I'd like to head.

And medication is within ADHD, medication is the first line of treatment is just so effective.

So if you are seeking to really add to your capacity to manage your ADHD, you might consider going for a formal diagnosis.

Sure. I think this speaks to almost everything we talk about on the show, but sometimes I think that people, and this is a guess, and it's maybe a guess informed by my own experience when I've been struggling with stuff in life, is just a reminder that you deserve better.

Like you don't have to live, if you're struggling with whatever it is, but it's certainly in this case, you don't have to struggle as much as you are.

Absolutely. Yeah. And a lot of people find that once they have sought some treatment for ADHD and to be honest, joining a group for ADHD is also a form of treatment, you know, that is really helpful.

So it doesn't have to be one or the other, or, you know, all of them.

You could, you could just choose what's going to work for you, but certainly finding a way of making your life easier.

Yeah, you have the right to do that.

Yeah. And there are more tools on offer out there.

Absolutely. A toolbox.

And the other thing to say is you might have ADHD, but it may not have a severe impact on your life.

You know, like you might be living a life where it's really working for you.

You don't need to get a diagnosis.

You don't need to get medication.

It's just where it can really become exacerbated at transition points in our life.

And so if you, you know, a lot of women are getting diagnosed recently, but transition points like, you know, leaving university and having an adult job and an adult life that can be tricky for an ADHD and also then having a baby and managing a household is another time when it can be really tricky

as well. And so they're just a couple of examples of times when maybe, you know, the stress is higher.

And so then it's going to be, you know, like you're going to affect our brain and our behaviour.

Yeah. I think it's also worth saying, and this is just me talking from my experience because I just, I'm so passionate about this obviously for obvious reasons, because I've got such a personal attachment to it.

And if I, if I had the power to take away all the, all of Jam's pain, like all of the struggle, I would just, you know, of course, like anyone, I would love to take that away.

But all of the good bits that come with it, I wouldn't want to lose.

And there's been multiple moments like this is horrible to say, but there have been multiple moments.

You know, we've been together for nine years now, and there've been multiple moments where it's been really hard that I've thought it'd be so much easier if I was with someone who was like me.

It would be so much less stress.

We'd get to places on time.

You know, there'd be so many, you know, and I can't help but think that that would be the right path.

But ultimately, I know that even though there's so many hard parts, there's so much good, and I feel so lucky that I'm with Jam because of all the good things that come from her just as a person, but also the things that clearly come from her ADHD.

And like, like, I'm someone who likes, I want to be productive, I have a routine, you know, they're all the things that I hold dear to me.

And but because I'm with Jam, I'm having to get up at 4 .30 in the morning to go watch the sunrise on a sand dune, because that is what is so important to her.

The way she gets dopamine is from like these experiences and from like doing these really often in nature and these incredibly beautiful things, which to me is sometimes hard because it's like, but if I do that, then I can't go on the peloton, I can't ride the exercise bike, which I'd sort of like plan to

do. But because of her want and need for this dopamine in these beautiful experiences, or instead of just having a quick dinner in the kitchen, she's organised a picnic that's going to take an extra hour.

But it's an incredible, memorable experience.

So because of all that, I get to have this really diverse, rich life that if I was with someone who was exactly like me, I would not get that.

And I'm so grateful for that.

Beautifully said. And the only reason I want to say that is because I just want the people who have ADHD or with someone with ADHD, I just, to hear that perspective, someone who's been with someone for a long time, there's so much good, and there's so much like positivity and brightness that can come

from it. And it's going back to that all or nothing, right?

So it can be really frustrating, but really amazing too.

It's very rarely in the middle with ADHD.

And then just to make really clear that is, I know some people struggle a lot more with ADHD than Jam does.

And so that is my experience, but it's beautifully said.

Beautifully said. Can we talk about HSPT?

A highly sensitive person.

I know it's a separate thing, but it's something that you have worked extensively to help people with.

So I think, you know, it'd be a shame not to talk about it.

Sure. What is it? Okay, so.

I mean, I think the clue's in the title.

Yeah. So ADHD is, you know, part of neurodivergence, and the high sensitivity trait is part of that sort of side of things as well.

And they don't know how many people have ADHD.

They used to think that it was about 5%, but that was before they knew that women had ADHD.

So it's quite a blind spot.

So who knows? It might be 10 % or something, but there's 15 to 20 % of the population have the high sensitivity trait.

It's a lot. So some people with ADHD will also have the high sensitivity trait, but there's a lot of people with a high sensitivity trait who don't have ADHD.

Okay. And so the high sensitivity trait has been called various things by various people.

So Elaine Aron, a lot of people who know about the trait will know Elaine Aron's work, and she's a professor over in the US, and she named it highly sensitive person.

But other researchers have researched the same trait, found the same things, but called it different things.

So Jerome Kagan, I think in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, he did work on four -month -old babies.

And what he noticed was that 15 to 20 % of the babies had this trait where the baby got sat in front of the mum, so he can't see the mum, and in comes this stimulus, which no baby has ever seen.

So that was the important thing.

And they just made it out of a mobile, you know, baby mobile, and they had, you know, was making a lot of noise, and it was flashing lights, and there were balloons on it.

It was a lot. It was a lot of visual and auditory stimulation.

And what they noticed was they could predict, because they did longitudinal studies, which means that they studied these babies over a long period of time.

So what they could predict was how that baby responded to that stimulus, sort of determined whether that baby was going to grow up and be very sensitive to their environment, that's the high sensitivity trait, or whether they were going to be pretty oblivious and, like, life was just, like, a bit more

of a breeze. But the way that the highly sensitive babies responded to this was to get very agitated.

They were getting overstimulated by taking in all this information, whereas other babies were just like, yeah, whatever, like, that's okay.

And these babies, the highly sensitive babies were kicking and screaming and crying, because their brains, and I, you know, I have this trait, our brains just take in so much information that we can get overwhelmed quite easily.

And it's some, and a lot of psychologists are making this mistake at the moment.

Some people are saying, isn't that autism?

It's not autism. It's a different trait altogether.

And there's different aspects to it than that.

So is it on the autism spectrum at all, or is it completely separate?

Yeah. I mean, they need to do a lot more research.

But, you know, there's about one or two percent of the population have autism.

I'm not sure about those numbers, but I think it's about that.

And there's 15 to 20 % of the population have this.

So it's being overwhelmed by too much stuff happening.

So Elaine Aaron, she identified four different characteristics of it.

There's much more, again, there's much more to it than that.

Another guy, and I'll come back to those, but another guy called Thomas Boyce, he identified what he called orchid children.

So again, he was doing it independently and came across the same trait.

And he was just looking at children in the classroom.

So he noticed that 15 to 20 % of every classroom, there was a group of kids who were so affected by their environment.

So in a really positive classroom environment, they were the stars and they were just like soaring.

If it was a really safe, like emotionally safe classroom, they were just like sore.

But in a really negative classroom, they would just plummet and they would get anxious and they would get depressed and they would need a lot of help.

And so that trait, so he called that being an awkward child versus what he calls dandelion children, which is the other end of the spectrum, which is didn't matter what was going on.

Like in any, like in a good class, healthy class environment, they did okay.

And in a negative class environment, they did okay.

Like they weren't really affected.

And another guy termed that, it's a big term, it's called differential susceptibility.

So what they're saying is people with this trait are very affected by their environment.

So, you know, these people have a lot of, again, a lot of empathy and big emotions and more so than ADHD is.

And we'll pick up other people's emotions, and that can be a lot, and have a lot of activity in the part of the brain that, you know, picks up other people's emotions, particularly the research shows, particularly if it's a loved one.

So if it's your loved one and you have this trait and they're having a big feeling, then you're having that big feeling as well.

And that uses up a lot of energy, but also that it's not only that information they're taking in, they're taking in everything that they can see and hear and feel.

They've done lots of studies on this, but one study, what they did was they identified which ones had this trait, which people, they were university students, which ones had this trait and which didn't, and then they gave them a task.

And so this task was a spot, the difference one, you know.

So they had a black and white photo, and they only made one change to it.

So it was tricky. And they weren't really interested in who was faster, but the people with this trait were a lot faster, or who were more accurate.

The people with this trait were a lot more accurate, but a lot more stressed as well.

So people with this trait were a lot more stressed about getting it wrong.

What they were doing is they were counting how many times the people looked between the two pictures.

And the people with this trait looked between the two pictures five times more than the other people.

And so you can imagine how exhausting that is through the day, because that's just like a two minute task.

But that's how their brains work all the time.

And so then that leads to the next trait, which is overwhelm.

So people with this trait tend to get overwhelmed on busy days or stressful days.

Novelty is not the friend of somebody with this trait.

Oh, sorry, new things.

Ah, right. Yeah. So for me, coming in here is a lot.

Yeah. I've never been here before.

So my brain, even though I'm not noticing it, but my brain is just like, just processing everything.

So using up a lot of energy.

Yeah. So then what happens is on busy days, what can happen is, and this is, this is a little bit diagnostic of this, of this trait.

It can get to a point where you've got nothing left to give and you just need to be in a quiet environment where no one's talking to you.

And so that's, that's part of overwhelm.

And then there's this awareness of subtleties.

So people with this trait are very aware of facial expressions, tones of voices and other subtleties.

So these people, you know, if you were in a, like a staff meeting, this person would be able to say, well, that one's had a fight with her husband this morning.

And that one hasn't slept very well.

You know, like they just know what's going on for everybody.

So they're a great asset to accompany because they know emotionally also how to handle everybody.

It's like an intuition.

Yeah. Yeah. And so these people, people with this trait are very good at handling people.

Yeah. Interesting. And know how to respond to every person in the way that they need to be responded to.

Yeah. And there's, I mean, there's other, you know, highly conscientious, always want to be doing the right thing and always focused on everybody else, find it hard to focus on themselves.

So that's the sort of work that I do with them is like helping them to learn how to focus more on what do I need, what do I want, et cetera, so that I can start to live my life, not being a self -sacrificer, a people pleaser, because that tends to happen.

Yeah. Is resentment a big thing for people with H, what are we saying trait or no, we're going with HSP if you want HSP?

Yeah. HSPs. Is resentment a thing that can build?

I think for anybody who is a self -sacrificer like for, you know, like putting their needs below others, resentment will happen.

Yeah. But the reason that people are self -sacrifices is because it can feel very overwhelming when there's a lot of negative energy.

You know, like if you have a partner who is easily, you know, getting upset about things or ranting and raving about stuff, that doesn't feel so good for someone who has this trait.

And so they will manage people so that things are not too.

Yeah. To avoid. Yeah.

So avoiding conflict too would be.

Avoiding Yeah. That M talked about.

Yeah. Yeah. Does anyone else think that?

Oh, really? You think?

Yeah. Yeah. Big time.

Yeah. All right. No, I don't, I think I'm, I think I'm more of a fan of life.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

Yeah. I was, I was thinking about myself, but yes.

Yeah, YouTube. Yeah, maybe.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure.

I think I'd have to, but I, I had that thing of like my mind kind of like going a bit silent because I was like, this is feeling a little bit.

Yeah. The sensitivity to negative environment, big time.

Like I fear and quickness to close down in a place that I don't feel safe or I may, I've always just put this down to like, this is just logical.

This is how the world works and it makes total sense.

But I look at people in who I respect and have done so well in environments that are a bit adversarial or overwhelming.

And there's again, there seems like a premium on your ability to jump into the fire sort of and fix everything and make everything good.

And I think about people in my life who I really respect who are amazing at that.

And I always sort of felt quite down on myself that if the conditions aren't perfect, I feel like I'm just so far below being able to anything.

An example would be that the other day, I'm trying to write music for this gig that we're doing and I put some time aside and then as I was just walking out the door, so I've said one little line about like, I guess we can watch TV in a few months or something like that.

Like we hadn't spent much time together.

And as I've walked out the door and I was like, yeah, that's done.

I'm not going to be able to do anything creative for the next three hours.

Because I felt so guilty.

You felt bad. I just took it on as like, I'm ruining and I feel bad for making her sound terrible, but we hadn't spent much time together for quite a while.

We've got two young kids.

It's very rare that we get time, but the kids happened to have gone to bed a bit earlier that night.

But I've walked out the door and then I was, that's why I brought up resentment before.

Because I was like, I'm not going to be able to, like this two hours that I had is now gone.

I can't use it because I was like sort of preparing the conditions for creativity for the last three hours of trying to remain, seeing positives and all this kind of stuff.

And I have always seen that as such a negative thing on myself that I'm not able to function in places that, and sorry to bring it back to the podcast, the reason I brought this up is that I realised that a freelancer life is a very isolated life and I was sort of freelancing for a long time and you're

often working with commercial clients who are quite critical rightly.

So it's their money.

They're spending money to make this ad.

But when you don't, when you don't have a team around you and it's just you and your eyes getting negativity, I was worn down by that over many years and just wasn't very happy.

And then I, and then this podcast, I think the greatest gift of it for me is working with such lovely, positive, enthusiastic and optimistic people.

I've been shocked at how much it almost feels like my brain has changed over the last few years to be able to see optimism and more.

And it's been a greatest, one of the greatest gifts of my life, being able to work with everyone in this room because of that, because I'm a happier person.

And I now am well aware that when I need to take on something new, one of the conditions is I have to do it with optimistic people.

Cause I can't be the one to fight against negativity.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's ringing a lot of bells.

Amazing. Yeah. I wish I could say the same about my experience here, but it's great.

You're enjoying it.

General, thank you so much.

It's been so educational.

I mean, we are in the academy of perfection, where we do, that's what happens, we get educated, but I have been severely educated by you.

So thank you so much.

And also I feel like I need to just mention the fact that you and Josh have born the identical colour.

Oh, yeah. Like you couldn't get it much closer to the green.

Look, let's go. Wow.

She's not an oval. Pretty cool.

Not the most powerful way to end the episode.

Take that home with you.

Choose final thoughts.

You guys are very similar colours.

Just bring anyone watching on YouTube who's been thinking and I just want to acknowledge that.

Yeah. In conclusion, Janelle, thank you so much.

You're welcome. I've just loved it.

Now you just quickly, I'm guessing your books are pretty much full already.

They kind of are. Well, you've given a slight bit of hope to people there.

Well, it changes over time at the moment they are.

You have a waiting list.

I do. Okay. It's not a long waiting list.

I don't keep a long waiting list.

You just never know.

It's a race to the internet right now.

Yeah. Thanks, Janelle.

You're so welcome. It was just a pleasure.

Thank you all. Thank you.

Thank you. The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh van Carlenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh van Carlenberg.

Our executive producer is Bridget North -East, assistant producer, Bella North -East.

This episode is edited by George Martin.

The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.

The advice given in this episode is general in nature.

But if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.

[Understanding ADHD and High Sensitivity: A Guide to Neurodiversity and Emotional Well-being]-[Janelle Booker - Living With ADHD]

📋 Summary

Understanding the Neurodivergent Brain: ADHD and the High Sensitivity Trait

Reframing ADHD: Beyond the Stereotypes

The Role of Executive Function and Emotional Regulation

The Strengths of the ADHD Brain

Understanding the High Sensitivity Trait (HSP)

A Path Forward: Empathy and Support

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript