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This is Fresh Air.
I'm Tanya Mosley.
My guest today is Jane Fonda.
When she accepted the SAG After Lifetime Achievement Award back in February, she used the moment to sound an alarm.
Empathy is not weak or woke, she told the room, urging her peers to use their platforms for good.
Have any of you ever watched a documentary of one of the great social movements, like apartheid or our civil rights movement or Stonewall, and asked yourself would you have been brave enough to walk the bridge?
Would you have been able to take the hoses and the batons and the dogs?
We don't have to wonder anymore because we are in our documentary moment.
Six months later, I'm talking with Fonda, not about a new film or project, but about the path that brought her to that speech.
Born in 1937 into one of Hollywood's most famous families, Fonda came of age when women were expected to be seen, but not outspoken.
Through the decades, Fonda found her voice first on screen, where she went on to win two Academy Awards.
In 1971 for Clute playing, a New York City call girl trying to leave sex work and pursue an acting career.
And in 1978 for Coming Home, portraying a military wife whose husband ships off to Vietnam.
Bonda's career and life choices have rarely been predictable.
In the 80s, she became an unexpected fitness mogul.
Her first workout tape remains the number one selling home video of all time.
And through the decades, she's chosen to live a life of resistance, marching against the Vietnam War, supporting civil rights and Native American activists and, more recently, as an environmental activist.
In 2019, she held weekly climate demonstrations on Capitol Hill, where she was arrested five times.
Jane Fonda, welcome back to Fresh Air.
It's good to be back.
I initially wanted to talk with you six months ago after the SAG-AFTRA award ceremony, where you won the Lifetime Achievement Award, but I couldn't get you till now.
So, yes, I'm happy to have you here.
Thank you.
But that speech, the timing of it, it came one month after the inauguration.
There's something else you said in it.
I want to read this quote.
We need to call upon our empathy and not judge, but listen from our hearts and welcome them into our tent, because we're going to need a big tent to resist what is coming at us.
Who were you thinking about when you wrote those lines?
Oh, I was thinking about all the people that live in the middle of the country, what's called flyover country, people who used to belong to unions that worked jobs that paid enough to buy a house and send your children to high school and college and That's gone for them.
When the rug has been pulled out from under.
You like that.
Where does your sense of self, your sense of meaning, your self-respect?
It's very hard and you're going to be very angry.
My dad came from Nebraska, from Omaha.
And I've walked precincts in Michigan and Pennsylvania and Ohio.
And, you know, people are really angry and they're really hurting.
And so they voted a certain way.
78 million Americans did.
All of them are not MAGA, you know.
And when they realize that what they voted for has turned against them, that it's not what they thought, that prices are going to go up, healthcare they're going to not be able to afford the medical care that they need and the food that they need, and so on.
You know, they're going to be looking for alternatives.
And I think those of us, well, a lot of us in America have alternatives to offer.
And we have to not judge, but we have to put forward a vision of what we think America should be.
Do you feel like it's your duty at this age, 87 years old, to say these things, to speak, to still be an activist?
Because, I mean, you could be off on an island somewhere just living.
People say that and I don't understand how – I mean, I can't even imagine right now being on an island someplace.
You know, I –
There's a book I want to write, but when I write, I go inward.
This is not the time to go inward.
We have to go out.
We have to speak.
We have to shout.
We have to find nonviolent ways to avoid...
What's happening, which is we're very, very close to becoming fascist in this country.
I never ever imagined that that would be the case.
But it's beginning to happen and we have to find ways to stop that.
Do you see any parallels to today and the time when you first became an activist in the late 1960s, early 1970s?
I can just imagine that there was a lot of fear and uncertainty in that time.
I didn't feel fear and uncertainty.
I had spent 30-some years not being involved in anything, not paying attention, not knowing what was going on.
But at the age of 31, I lived in Paris.
I was married to a Frenchman, a French director.
And there were American soldiers who had been in Vietnam that left and came to Paris because they had turned against the war.
And they were looking for American compatriots to help them find doctors dentists money, you know, whatever they needed.
And they found me.
And I asked them about the war.
And I could not believe what they said about what was happening, what we were doing to civilians, how Vietnamese felt about American soldiers being there, etc etc.
And I didn't believe them.
I really believed at that time that wherever our soldiers were, we were on the side of the angels.
And they gave me a book to read, Jonathan Schell's The Village of Bensouk.
And when I finished the book, I closed it.
I was a different person.
And that's when I became an activist.
And I left France and moved back.
Were you surprised then by the reaction of folks, by your activism, you saying that the war was wrong at that time period?
Were you surprised by the vitriol that people felt for speaking out?
No.
But it was painful.
No, I wasn't surprised.
I knew pretty much what was going to be happening, but I was part of a movement.
I wasn't alone.
That's really important, that we are not alone when we start to speak out.
I wasn't always with people who were wiser than me and more experienced than I was, so I didn't always use the right words in describing what was happening to me.
I used other people's rhetoric because I had just finished making Barbarella.
In fact one of the first speeches that I gave against the war.
When I moved back here, the marquee on the theater said come hear Barbarella speak.
And you were speaking about the Vietnam War at that time.
Right, right.
And, you know, it took me a while to learn to speak Barbarella.
With my own voice, using my own words based on my own experience.
And that's important.
I want to play a clip of you from 1973.
You're talking to a reporter in San Francisco about the cost of war, the killing of Vietnamese soldiers at the hands of American soldiers.
Let's listen.
Are we trying to exterminate an entire people?
What have we become as a nation if we are trying to exterminate And if we call the men heroes that were used by the Pentagon to try to exterminate an entire people?
What business have we to try to exterminate a people?
My father fought against people in the Second World War who were trying to exterminate a people.
I don't think today we should repudiate everything that our fathers fought against or fought for in the Second World War, repudiate the democratic ideals that our country was founded on, the things that our forefathers fought for 200 years ago, by making these men into heroes.
They are not men we should be proud of.
That was my guest, Jane Fonda, in 1973, talking about why she was against the Vietnam War and calling for it to end.
You famously or infamously traveled to North Vietnam to see for yourself what was happening.
Well, I went to North Vietnam in 1972 because we had heard through the Swedish and French diplomats who had been to Vietnam that the US was bombing the dikes in the Red River Delta.
Now, the dikes were made of dirt, Because they didn't have heavy equipment in North Vietnam.
Peasants by hand built dikes to hold back the ocean because like Holland, it's below sea level.
But now we heard in spring of 72 that we were bombing the dikes and it was right before monsoon season.
What were we going to do?
I mean, about 300 Americans had gone to North Vietnam before me over the years.
It was not… Unprecedented.
Exactly.
Good word.
And I thought, yeah, but none of them were Barbarella.
You know, if an actress formerly known as Barbarella went to North Vietnam, maybe it would get more attention.
You understood your power.
Yeah.
Before I went, they asked me to list the things that I wanted to do and see.
And I particularly said no interest in going to a military site.
But at the end, I had been there for two weeks.
My big mistake was going alone because by the time the trip was over, I was like a wet noodle.
I had seen and experienced things that changed my life.
I mean, imagine you come from the most powerful nation in the world that has the mightiest military machine.
You're in a country of peasants and fisher people, fishermen mostly, with no heavy equipment.
They have to rebuild by hand.
And they were winning.
That was hard to wrap my head around.
What does it mean that this third world country can defeat a country like ours?
I had to rethink everything.
You said how you told them you definitely don't want to go to a military base.
Oh, yeah.
So it's the last day.
They asked me if they wanted to take me to the central square where Ho Chi Minh, decades before, had announced Vietnamese independence.
That's where they took me.
And there was an anti-aircraft gun.
There were no planes.
It was not active or anything like that.
A group of Vietnamese soldiers sang me a song in Vietnamese about the Declaration of Independence.
And then they asked me to sing and I didn't know what to do.
I sang Old MacDonald or something stupid.
But I was laughing and everything.
And they... offered me to sit down on the gun, and I did.
It's an infamous picture.
It still haunts you to this day.
I mean, you've spent the last five decades apologizing.
Yeah, it was a terrible mistake, because it made me look like I was against Americans.
I wasn't there to be against Americans.
I was there to try to understand the war better and to stop the bombing of the Dykes.
That's the reason that I went was to stop the bombing.
And guess what?
Two months later, the bombing of the Dykes stopped.
Were you able to reconcile with vets and folks who felt so betrayed and angry with you over the years?
Have you been able to have those conversations?
Yeah, I have.
Lots of them.
And, you know, I don't know whether it's because many vets are dead already.
Time has gone by, but now vets come up to me and thank me, thank God.
It kills me that people think that I was against soldiers, but I did help end a terrible part of the war.
You also went through a lot with the government during that time period.
The CIA, the FBI, they all had investigations about you.
They were following you.
At its worst, what was it like at its worst?
At its worst, it scared my children.
At its worst, I mean, we had to have somebody remotely turn our car on in case it was a car bomb.
We had smoke bombs thrown through our windows.
We had our home ransacked and things like that.
And it was traumatic for my children, and that was the worst part of it.
Okay.
Today, one of the things that you're focused on among many issues… I'm focused on one thing.
Well, actually two things.
Saving our democracy and confronting the climate crisis.
And they go together.
They're totally interdependent.
We can't solve one without the other.
You can't have a…
A stable democracy with an unstable climate.
You can't have a stable climate without a stable democracy.
And they'll be solved together.
In 2019, you were arrested five times.
That's no big deal.
My beloved friend Martin Sheen has been arrested 72 times.
And I'm famous.
Yes.
You know what I mean?
And I'm a privileged person.
They don't treat me the way they would if I did exactly the same thing and I was black.
It would not be the same.
And it wouldn't probably be the same now.
If I got arrested now, it would probably be for five years.
Would you still be willing to put yourself on the line to do that?
I don't know right now, because I think that what I'm doing with my Jane Fonda climate pack is is important enough for me to be sure I don't go to jail for five years.
I have to keep doing this.
This is important.
We're focusing with my PAC, down ballot.
That is to say governors mayors, city councils, state legislators, county executives, state and local building a firewall, because this is where the real climate and democracy work is being done right now on the state and local level.
You know, Jane, you're kind of the most visible activist of your generation.
But do you think that your generation also, to a certain extent, bore some responsibility for the moment that we're in?
Yeah, I do.
It's called neoliberalism.
A lot of so-called democratic leaders for the last decades, but particularly starting in the 80s, moved to corporate liberalism, so that the Democratic Party seems to be kowtowing to its donors moving to the middle, which is not what we need to be doing.
How do you talk to your peers about it?
Same way I'm talking to you.
Yeah.
Do you feel like they're listening?
Do they hear you?
Some do, some don't.
But, you know, it's a lot of voices are needed, not just mine.
You know, to what you said just now.
I'm the daughter of Henry Fonda.
And Henry Fonda was an actor who did 12 Angry Men and Young Abe Lincoln and The Oxbow Incident and Grapes of Wrath.
You know, the movies that he made.
And as a child I knew which the movies were that he loved doing and identified with and represented who he was.
I just knew that intuitively.
And although I didn't become an activist until I was In my 30s, I view his films as fertilizer in the soil of my soul.
It was there.
I just needed to stir it up a little so the sprouts could grow.
But he laid the groundwork.
My dad did.
Seeing your father's work, Grapes of Wrath, you know, 12 Angry Men, all of those iconic roles.
Dicking up for the underdogs.
Yeah.
How did he feel about your Vietnam War activism?
He hated it.
You know, I remember when I left France and came back, I had no money.
So I stayed at his house, my dad's house.
And one day I went to, I don't remember what the prison was, to visit Angela Davis.
Mm-hmm.
Activist Angela Davis, yes.
And when I came home and I told my father, you know, and he said to me if I find out that you are a communist, I'm going to be the first person to turn you in.
And I remember running to my room and just pulling the sheets over my head and crying.
You know, I'm not an ideological person.
I never have been.
I'm not a Anything-ism.
I don't know.
I'm not a communist.
I've spent a lot of time in communist countries, especially when I was married to Ted Turner, because he created the Goodwill Games.
So there were games in Russia.
Also, I made a movie in Russia when it was still Russia.
So I've seen...
Communism up close, and we do not want that.
Or the version of it that I have seen, and it's the worst thing for the environment.
Okay, little known fact about your fitness empire.
You actually recorded that first tape because you were trying to fund your activism.
Well, my second husband and I had started a statewide organization called the Campaign for Economic Democracy.
The war had ended and we began to focus on the economic inequality that exists in this country.
So we focused on that.
It was the beginning of the very apparent takeover of much of our economy by communists corporations, including agriculture.
And a light bulb went off.
I have to start a business.
And it took us about a year to figure out what it should be.
And it turned out it was the workout.
So the money went to the Campaign for Economic Democracy.
You got millions of people, mostly women, to work out in their living rooms to live a healthier life, empowering women to put their relationship with their own body into focus and to think about the health.
But you also had this relationship with your own body up until that point or around that point.
That was pretty awful.
I suffered from an eating disorder known as bulimia.
We didn't even have a name for it at the time.
It was really hard because I didn't know to go to a program or to talk to anybody.
I just quit.
And about a year later, I started the workout.
Do you remember when you started to see yourself as you actually were, and not this distorted picture of yourself?
Well, it didn't happen overnight, and I can't mention one particular moment.
For those of us who grapple with body dysmorphia, and what that means is you don't see what's real.
You see what you think is there.
And I can't pretend. that I'm 100% over that.
I just don't act on it.
Oh, what do you mean?
I don't try to starve myself.
I don't try to do extreme things to try to be thinner than I am.
I eat healthy now, and I...
I can't imagine ever, ever having an eating disorder again.
And it just feels good.
Our guest today is Jane Fonda.
She's a two-time Academy Award-winning actor, a best-selling author, fitness pioneer, and activist.
I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
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Hi, this is Molly C.V.
Nusberg, digital producer at Fresh Air.
And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.
One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter.
And I'm a newsletter fan.
I read it every Saturday after breakfast.
The newsletter includes all the week's shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive.
It's a fun read.
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week in exclusive.
So subscribe at whyy.org slash fresh air and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.
Today I'm talking with Jane Fonda.
Now in the next part of our conversation, we briefly discuss suicide.
If you're having thoughts of suicide, help is available by calling or texting 988- which is the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
Again, the number to call or text is 988.
You had gone through this long period, really all of your life, based on what society had told you, based on what your father, your father.
Your father used to say some pretty horrible things to you about your body.
He objectified me, and he objectified women.
You know, one of the things that I've really learned is our parents aren't perfect.
Our parents have all the weaknesses that all humans have, you know.
He wasn't perfect, but he was a good man.
He had good values, and he did his best.
So I don't feel anger or anything.
That's the way men of that generation thought about women.
When did you come to understand that, that he's of a generation and he's a good man, but he was a man of his time.
When I got older.
Not as old as I am now.
No, I think probably in my 50s and 60s, I made peace with that.
After he passed away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think I'm going to have to pass away before my kids make peace with me, because I certainly have not been a perfect parent, but I've done my best.
Oh, it's so interesting because so much of your life and what you've talked about.
When people sit down and talk with you, it's about your relationship between you and your father, Henry Fonda, and then your mother, who passed away when you were 12.
Well, she didn't pass away.
She killed herself.
Yeah, she died by suicide.
Yeah.
She was bipolar.
Yeah.
There's a documentary about your life that came out a few years ago.
And in that documentary your son says I think my mother's number one wound the place by which she moves through the world comes from that original wound ache and hurt of losing your mother at 12 years old.
But you received this gift later in life.
Were you able to read her medical records that gave you a deeper understanding of her?
It helped you understand yourself.
You know, even as a child, I knew, and I would say to myself, something happened to her, my mother, as a child, because I knew that there was something wrong.
I knew that she didn't really love me or my brother, but my brother more than me, because she wanted a boy.
When I was writing my memoir, My Life So Far, in the early 2000s, I got a lawyer to get her records from the institution where she was when she killed herself.
And among the papers that I got was she must have been asked to write a little biography of herself.
And I read that.
And it turns out that she was sexually abused at age seven.
I could tell reading this document.
She'd been a secretary, so she knew how to type.
Small typing, single space, very intense.
What it was that had happened to her.
I think she had, you know...
Her father was alcoholic and schizophrenic and paranoid and a problem.
But then to have, on top of that, been sexually abused had really affected her.
Put me in the time frame of when you were able to get those records.
Where were you in life?
I was... single, Ted Turner, my third husband and I had separated, and I was writing my book.
I had asked for five years.
I said, don't ask me.
I don't want a quick deadline or I'm going to take five years.
And I was in the beginning part of the five years of writing my memoirs.
What did that provide for you to learn that information about your mom?
I remember when I read it, I was alone in a hotel room and I started to shake.
I got so cold and I got in bed and covered myself up.
And I started crying and all I wanted to do was take my mother in my arms and hold her and tell her how sorry I was and that I understood and that I know she did her best.
Yeah.
You starred in this iconic movie on Golden Pond with your dad shortly before he passed away.
And during that time period, through the script, through the movie, you were able to tell him and say some things to him that you all just couldn't say to each other in life.
I just wonder like have more conversations come up for you in life as you've moved through these different eras in your life where you have the language to be able to say the things you wanted to say?
I just wish he was still alive.
I would talk to him in a totally different way than I would have before.
But, of course, you know, it's too late.
But I think about that, how I would talk to him now, because I never could before.
Yeah.
You were young.
Yes.
No, I wasn't young.
It was just not the nature of our relationship.
Right, right.
Nobody talked to each other.
You know, I remember, and this is, I think, true of a lot of kids you know, like me, who had that kind of a family.
I would spend the night at friends' house, and it was like, oh, my God.
People are all sitting at the table talking to each other, asking how the day went.
That's not my experience, but that's how I learned what was normal.
My dad and I were not close, and he died several years ago.
That's how I could have like broached the subject.
That's how I could have gotten in there and had that conversation.
Do you have those moments?
No.
Yeah.
That's great.
Yeah.
I'm sorry that you've lost him.
Mine aren't that specific.
This is what I would do or this is what I would say.
But I think about what I would want to say to him.
Yeah, I do.
But I think that it's really important.
I think about my death a lot and I think that that's very healthy.
I think that thinking about death gives meaning to life.
At 60, I thought a lot about, okay, this is my last act.
This is it.
First 30 years, second 30 years, my last 30 years.
What do I want to get out of it?
I want to end it with no regrets, or at least as few regrets as possible.
Okay, that means because if you visualize your death, none of us know how we're going to die, but it's good to have an idea.
I want to be in my bed, in my home, surrounded by people who love me.
That means I'm going to have to be sure that people love me.
I have to earn some love between now and then during my third act.
And my dad never spoke when he was dying.
I want to be able to talk and impart some thoughts and wisdom.
So I've thought about all that.
And so it guides how I live in these last years.
I'm almost 88.
You know, how I live so that I will get to the point that I want to get to when I die.
I know where I'm going to be buried.
I've worked it all out.
Cremation is bad because it puts chemicals into the atmosphere.
The idea of being buried in a wooden box is anathema to me.
It's like a native field, with native grasses and no headstones, and it's drought resistant and I don't want the kids to have to go to different places to commune with us and I believe we can commune with the dead.
What an evolved way of thinking.
Did you ever have a time period in your life though, when you were afraid of death or like a midlife crisis or fear of getting old?
Yeah, I was afraid of getting old before I even had menopause.
And I wrote a book and I lost my fear.
You wrote a book about aging.
Yeah, yeah.
The thing to do when you're scared, at least for me, is I make what I'm afraid of my best friend.
I learn all about it.
I wrap my arms around it and squash it to death.
Why do you do that?
Because then I'm not afraid anymore.
Yeah.
If you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Fonda talking about her life on screen and off.
We'll be right back after a break.
This is Fresh Air.
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Jane, there's a part of that speech, that SAG speech, about the arts.
And you say specifically that the arts has the power to create empathy, to understand a human so profoundly that you can touch another person's soul.
And I always wondered this about actors.
What makes one want to sit in those emotions?
What is that like for you?
What is it that you enjoy most about that?
Oh, it's the most thrilling thing in the world.
The whole process of getting to know another character so well that you respond spontaneously the way they would, not the way you would.
That's just a joyful experience.
You understand why they are the way they are deeply.
You may play somebody who you don't like, whose values don't reflect yours, but you get down to what made them human.
What is the humanness in them?
That's great.
That's why acting leads to empathy.
In 71, you played Bree, a New York City call girl in Clute, directed by Alan Pakula.
And to prepare, you spent about a week with real sex workers to understand their lives.
What stood out to you most about that experience with them and the stories that they told you?
Well, I mean, there were so many of them and so many stories, but the things that they had in common the eyes were dead.
All of them seemed to have had some essential part of themselves killed.
At the end of the week I went to Alan Pakula, the director, and I said Alan, let me out of my contract.
I can't do it.
I don't think I can capture the death.
And he just, I said, you hired Faye Dunaway.
And he just laughed.
So anyway, and the rest is history.
Yeah.
I want to play actually a clip.
It's a famous one.
It's one that we often hear with this movie.
You're sitting with a psychiatrist who is trying to help you transition from being a call girl to being a respectable actor, which is what this character says she wants to be.
Let's listen.
What's the difference between going out on a call as a model or as an actress, as a call girl?
You're successful as a call girl.
You're not because when you're a call girl, you control it.
That's why.
Because someone wants you.
Not me.
There are some Johns that I have regularly that want me, and that's terrific.
But they want a woman.
And I know I'm good.
And I arrive at their hotel or their apartment.
And They're usually nervous, which is fine because I'm not.
I know what I'm doing.
And for an hour, for an hour, I'm the best actress in the world and the best in the world.
And why do you say you're the best actress in the world at that time?
Because it's an act.
That's what's nice about it.
You don't have to feel anything.
You don't have to care about anything.
You don't have to like anybody.
You just, you just lead them by the ring in their nose in the direction that they think they want to go in.
And you get a lot of money out of them in as short a period of time as possible.
And you control it and you call the shots.
And I always feel just great afterwards.
That was my guest today.
Jane Fonda in the 1971 film Clute, which you won an Academy Award for your portrayal as Bree.
I think Roger Ebert said that Clute should have been named Bree.
But is it true that all of those scenes with the psychiatrist were ad-libbed?
Yes, we shot it.
It was one of the last things that we shot.
I asked Alan if we could wait till the end.
Why did you want to wait till the end?
When Brie was inside me, you know, when I had her in me and originally in the script it was a man psychiatrist and I said to Alan Brie would never tell the truth in front of a man, so it's got to be a woman psychiatrist.
You didn't always see joy in acting.
My dad never brought joy home as an actor.
There were always problems, and it never occurred to me.
First of all, I thought I was ugly, fat, and I was extremely shy.
It never dawned on me to be an actor.
All the way up to when I was about 23 or 24, I didn't know what to do.
So I really understand kids today, you know.
What to do?
What do I want?
I didn't know.
It's hard to be young.
It's easy to be old if you're healthy.
Susan Strasberg said, well, you should take classes with my father.
And so I went and met with him, and he said that I seemed very boring.
And just to tell the audience, her father was a very noted and very well-known person. acting coach.
Lise Rosberg.
Yes.
Yes.
And it was Lise, I took classes with him and the first time I got up and he said, you have talent.
Oh, Nobody had ever said that to me.
And I remember it felt like the top of my head came off and birds flew out.
Everything changed.
And it was on Broadway in some old office building.
And I came down in the elevator.
I walked outside.
I owned the city.
New York was mine.
And I started then.
I didn't do one class.
And most people took a class a week.
I took four because I didn't want people to say the only reason I worked was because I was Henry Fonda's daughter.
And my whole life changed.
If you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Fonda, talking about her life on screen and off.
We'll be right back after a break.
This is Fresh Air.
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You've been working pretty consistently for the last few decades, but around 91.
All the way into the mid-2000s you retired.
You went away from public life.
And although you've talked about it...
Everybody I talk to says, oh, yeah, what was she doing during that time?
I was married to Ted Turner.
Yes.
From 10 years, from 90 to 2000.
You can't be married to Ted Turner and have another job.
That's the job.
And it's a full-time job.
And it was great.
And I'm so grateful that I had Ted in my life for 10 years because he's the most interesting fascinating exciting, wonderful guy.
This interesting thing has happened to you through your life though, where there comes a certain point where you outgrow that life.
It's like you're becoming more and more Jane as you move through life.
Is that a fair way to put it?
It's a very astute way.
I'm amazed to hear you say that.
Yes.
Yeah.
Because you decided to come back to acting after that marriage.
Well, I spent five years after the marriage writing my memoir.
And at the very end of that writing process, I received a script called Monster-in-Law.
And my best friend produced it, the late Paula Weinstein, God bless her.
And it was a great comeback.
Yeah, and you've been working pretty consistently after that.
One of the projects you're very proud of is Grace and Frankie, which was a Netflix comedy which ran for seven seasons, starring you and Lily Tomlin, who you guys have a long history together.
I mean, nine to five.
We've made three movies together.
Yes.
Yeah.
In Grace and Frankie.
You're two women in your 70s whose husbands, played by Martin Sheen and Sam Watterson, leave the both of you for each other.
And it forces you both into this unlikely close relationship.
I want to play a scene from the second season.
Grace and Frankie are speaking to their exes and their children about like how they feel like they're being mistreated.
And this clip has been edited for time.
Lily Tomlin speaks first.
Let's listen.
You, you turned me into a little old lady who's losing her mind and shouldn't even be allowed to drive.
And I'm just a dupe who couldn't possibly have any good advice to give.
And you.
Oh, God.
You said you wouldn't hire me because I'd overshadow you.
But I gave you the first new idea that St.
Grace's had since you took over.
Well, we gave you the first idea.
And you never acknowledged it.
You took credit for it.
And then you threw Frankie to the curb.
Mom, you try being in business with her.
Well, I might.
I will.
I am.
You are?
What?
Yeah, we talked about it.
Oh, yes, we talked about it.
What are we doing?
What are we doing?
I'll tell you what we're doing.
We're...
We're making vibrators for women with arthritis.
Yes, vibrators.
Brilliant.
I highly doubt there's a vibrator market for geriatric women with arthritis.
There is.
I meant agony.
Seriously Mom, how do I explain to my children that their grandma makes sex toys for other grandmas?
I'll tell you what you can tell them, honey.
We're making things for people like us because we are sick and tired of being dismissed by people like you.
Mic drop.
Let's go home.
That was my guest today, Jane Fonda, with Lily Tomlin on the show Grace and Frankie.
And June Diane Raphael in there a little bit, my wonderful daughter.
What has it been like for you playing Grace, playing this character who has so many different notes at that specific age?
It was great.
It was fun.
And I'm just in awe of Lily Tomlin.
I mean, the fact that I got seven years to spend with her, I am deeply grateful.
This woman is a true genius.
And...
It was just a great experience.
Marta Kaufman, I'm so grateful for her.
She came to us and said, I want to make a series with the two of you.
And she did it.
She created it.
It was fun.
It was wonderful.
I had a nervous breakdown the first season.
Oh, why?
I hated the first season.
Why?
I dreaded going to work every day.
And when it was at the end, I thought, well, what am I going to do?
I'm either going to quit the business for good, and I was seriously old then, and I couldn't have.
Or I guess I'll have to go into therapy and figure it out.
And I did.
What did you figure out?
First scene of the first episode.
Lily and I, we hate each other.
We're at this restaurant waiting for our husbands and they arrive.
And what do they do?
They tell us that they are in love with each other and they're going to leave us and they're going to get married to each other.
And then the whole rest of the season is about that.
How do we recover from that?
How do we become friends instead of enemies?
And in therapy, what I realized is what it triggered that first episode in me was abandonment.
And so the whole season was about dealing with abandonment, and it was horrible.
And I went into therapy and I figured it out and then I fell in love with Grace and everything from then on was fine.
What an amazing job you have, that you're able to work through real-life issues through these characters.
And you're never too old.
You know, I've gone back into therapy now at 87.
Because I want to figure out why I'm not a better person and why I wasn't a better parent.
And I'm figuring it out.
Wait, so you weren't in therapy.
And it all started when I was 60.
When I said I didn't want to have regrets.
I don't want to have regrets.
And so I've gone into therapy.
So I won't have any regrets.
And I'll understand what it was all about.
Jane, what do you think it is about you, this quality that you have, that you keep striving?
Resilience?
Resilience is such an interesting thing.
You know, I think people are born with it.
You know, resilience is when a young child who is not getting love at home kind of There's a radar scanning the horizon.
If there's a warm body that maybe could love her or teach her something, you go there.
You find love where you can.
You find support where you can.
That's a resilient child.
That was me.
Yeah.
But there's also, you know, I mean, the phrases aren't just for anything.
You can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Oh, as you get older, you're set in your ways.
Those are all things that...
People don't make new friends after 60.
I'm sorry, that's not true.
No, I'm grateful that I have a very vibrant old life.
Jane Fonda, this has been such an honor.
Thank you so much for taking this time.
Thank you.
Academy Award-winning actor Jane Fonda.
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