This episode discusses romantic relationships from what healthy models look like, through to the honeymoon phase, breaking up, couples therapy, intimacy, pornography, trust, communication, attachment styles and some unhealthy patterns and behaviours to be aware of.
This episode doesn't specifically discuss domestic violence or coercive control.
But if you or someone you know needs help, please call 1800RESPECT.
That's 1800 737 732, or if you're in an emergency, dial triple 0.
My name is Bala and I'm the assistant producer on The Imperfects.
I'm the descendant of Russian and English migrants who journeyed to Australia during the Second World War.
I grew up on the border of Wurrung and Eastern Mark country, inspired by their care for the natural world as I explored the land near my home.
Here at the Imperfects we acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation as the traditional owners of the land where our podcast is recorded.
We extend our respects to their elders past and present and acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded, always was always will be Aboriginal land If our relationships are healthy we are healthy if they are not we are really not it's impossible To have good mental health if our relationships are unhealthy.
Hello I'm British and welcome to the Academy of imperfect!
Oh, what's that? You know what that means.
It means that school's in for summer and while it's hot outside, it's still cool in here.
School's in for summer.
Wow! Sunny boys. Well, Van Kyllenberg fans will be very happy to hear that we have increased the percentage of Van Kyllenberg's this episode from 66 .6 % to 75 % Van Kyllenberg.
Right, Matt. Thanks.
Just thought of it before.
I mean, to be fair, it should be 66 .6 ongoing recurring yet, but, let's not get caught in the details guys.
Shelton fans will be furious.
It's a huge drop for Shelton fans down to a measly 25%.
Gross. He's really lost it.
We are joined by clinical cousin and he's such a good cousin.
He's just clinical the way he cousins.
He's also a clinical psychologist who we had on a...
I missed all my memory of what Bridget said about five minutes ago.
Yeah. And he's here for our last episode of the summer school.
Yeah. And then we can say school's out for summer.
Yeah. And then school be back in for the late summer.
Yeah. And to prove he's here, James, you can talk.
It's so great to be back, guys.
Thank you for having me back again.
The last experience of coming in here was amazing.
Mm. the response was incredibly positive.
We did, as you predicted, get an influx of referrals for counselling.
And I've just met the most beautiful people, many of whom I'm still working with now.
And I feel like most of them slid into my DMs and told me that you have either quite seriously changed their life or saved their life, which makes me so proud for so many reasons.
It's all these wonderful worlds colliding.
But the last episode, you talked about your child a little bit bullying.
We talked about the wonky bricks, how the things that happen in our childhood really reverberate through to our adulthood.
Which I've thought about a lot recently.
It often pops into my head, Wonky Briggs.
It's such a good one.
We'll link to that episode in the show notes.
And now you've gone on to create your own podcast.
Yeah. You're A Good Kid, which is with your brother, our cousin Nick.
Yeah. You're A Good Kid.
We're exploring our childhoods and how that shapes the people we become.
Yeah. I was very lucky to be a guest on it.
And it was amazing.
I had some of the stuff I hadn't really even thought about before it just sort of came out because you therapyed me, I guess, with a microwave.
We didn't mean to. Sorry about that.
Yeah it was beautiful.
I loved it. It was a great experience.
So, we'll put a link in the show notes to You're a Good Kid.
Congratulations on that.
Yeah. Thank you. So, James is here today for a topic that I cannot believe we've only ever really done once before when we spoke to...
Esther Perel. Esther Perel.
You guys did. And I was vomiting at the time.
I had Castro, not because we've been to her, but I didn't make it, um, topic that really, it's so big in some of people's lives relationships.
And I remember being 28 years old and I'd been with my partner at the time for, I think it was six years and we broke up quite abruptly, um, not far out from, from wanting to come in from your wedding.
Just rub it in. Our wedding is a bit too...
Sorry, yeah. From our wedding.
Not yours and mine.
No, that's yet to be organized.
But for the record, up for it.
Wouldn't be shattered.
Would be a lot of fun being married to you.
Yeah, there'd be some broken hearts along the way.
But I think you and I would have fun.
We would laugh so much together.
Imagine giggling in bed together.
Okay, let's save this.
So after a six year relationship that ended reasonably abruptly and not far out from a wedding that had been planned, I remember coming home to Nama Dads house where you were Josh.
I remember crying a lot and hugging you a lot.
And the first person I called was James.
This is back a quite as a long time ago now, it was 2009, I think it was, but I called James and we caught up the next night.
We went for dinner together and we stood outside the restaurant and talked for a fellow like an hour and a half or something.
And I felt like I was speaking to the best person in the world to speak to about a relationship.
I'm so happy we're talking about relationships.
Because what you said to me in those few hours were life changing.
And I don't know how it got through heartbreak if I hadn't had you to lean on throughout that time.
That's very kind of you to say.
Yeah, we were all heartbroken for you at that time.
But obviously, I'm so happy with how things have worked out for you since.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So where do you want to start?
When we're talking relationships here, but this is not, we're not just talking men, woman relationships, they're all types of relationships.
I think we'll probably lean towards romantic relationships because I think for a lot of people that is such a complex thing.
And I've never heard of a, well, there's no such thing as a perfect relationship and everyone's got their struggles.
There are some more common ones that you hear from.
You do a lot of relationship counseling in your work, which doesn't surprise me at all.
And so I thought today we could talk about...
How many issues that pop up in romantic relationships?
It's a brilliant topic to talk about because I think, you know, last time in talking about childhood, obviously that's universal and the way that impacts all of us and shapes our lives.
I mean our relationships, like this is the big one, you know, we are relational creatures, this is at the core of what it is to be human.
If our relationships are healthy, we are healthy.
If they are not, we are really not.
It's impossible to have good mental health if our relationships are unhealthy.
What are the issues that come to people come to you with that you think everyone needs to hear this?
I mean, this is such a common not mistake or not trap a trend that I'm saying in relationships that I just wish everyone knew this.
What's the right amount of shows that you should wait to watch with your partner?
Yes. That's the critical one.
That's the big one, isn't it?
If you watch ahead in the series, it's all over.
Yeah, that's hell. Because I feel like you shouldn't be expected to wait to watch more than two shows at any one time.
you should be allowed to like, okay, we've got these are our two shows we're watching.
And then other than that, go for your life.
Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head.
Not sure I have much more to offer.
Anything else to add.
Sorry guys, I totally became the expert.
That's never happened anymore.
No, I think, I mean, like people come to counseling for so many different reasons.
And in fact, with couples counseling, trying to figure out why they're there is the first big question because people will arrive at any different stage of the relationship, sometimes it's because, you know, it's got a little bit off track or they just want some advice or it could be pre -marriage counselling or just wanting to improve what's already good.
And sometimes they actually come to break up.
And it's not always clear straight away but with a little bit of digging and trying to get down, OK, what are they doing here and what do they want?
So do you think the two of them of both the grade they want to break up in a...
The realization often happens in the room when they've come for counselling as kind of one last ditch effort to save the relationship but through a discussion it becomes clear pretty quickly that both have emotionally checked out a long time ago.
Couples counselling is a really diverse area and very intense.
I think it's not for everybody, not all psychologists feel comfortable doing it.
It's incredibly intense.
I think some of the more profound and intense experiences I've ever had as a psychologist have been in couple sessions, you're holding the space for two people and they bring their emotion into the room and often they haven't been communicating very well for a long time and there can be a huge buildup of resentment and it just floods out in the room.
And so my job then is to help contain that safely for them and help them express that and hopefully balance it and help both parties feel validated and listened to and that they leave with something helpful.
Now, that is sometimes very difficult.
I've had like huge fights happen right in front of me and it's very intense.
It triggers my own kind of fight or flight response sometimes because it's so powerful.
But that can actually be incredibly therapeutic.
Hopefully it's the whole point.
Isn't it? That you hold them in that space and get them to a point of acceptance, realization, understanding that they can then take with them.
So, sometimes I find myself if I get into an argument with Jam, and we're having like a disagreement about something, I kind of unconsciously start just wanting to be right.
As opposed to you know, just trying to find like the right outcome.
I've like planted my flag and I'm like, no, this is where I stand.
And even if like along the way, she says something that changes my mind.
If I'm like the worst version of me is like, I'll just choose to ignore that.
I still want to win.
I still want to win.
I think that happens with me having an argument sometimes my brain stops.
I can't. What brain.
Yeah. That sounds like a medical episode.
I think you should know.
No thought happens.
It's like complete shut down.
Yeah. My prefrontal cortex is like, yeah, that me out.
Just good luck. Yeah.
And so I'm like, like two hours later, I go, Oh my God, I should've said that.
That's what I should have said that would won me the argument.
That's the famous George Costanza sign Hortipus.
That's what I should have said.
So I guess, I mean, that makes so much sense and is so relatable, that sense of almost competitiveness that we can bring into these discussions.
A healthy thing to say here is that obviously conflict is essential in a relationship and we mustn't forget that.
It's incredibly healthy, but how we go about conflict is really important.
So our natural instinct might be to be a bit competitive and want to get our point of view across.
While that's very human, I'm not sure it's very helpful when it comes to relationships.
The opposite is generally true, like when we're having conflict, the best thing we can do is try and get our headspace into where are they coming from?
What are they thinking?
What do they need? And try and meet that.
If both parties are doing that, we can get somewhere good.
If, if it is a bit of a game of one -upmanship or competitiveness, which again is very natural, we can be at loggerheads and not actually really listen to what the other person is saying.
It's like I feel like I've heard a few times over the years people, you know, and it makes so much sense when you're here.
As long as you're making sure, as long as both people in the relationship are making sure the other one has everything they need and want and is looked after.
Then if both people are doing that, then it's going to be great.
Yeah. And it makes so much sense logically to me but so often I'll find myself in a position where it's like, no but I want...
Yeah. ... I want this thing.
That's human nature.
Yeah. So yeah, I mean that now you actually rather than the Netflix thing, this really has hit the nail on the head This is core.
So well done bloody hell expert twice Yeah, this really I think one of the things we probably get the most wrong about relationships is that the assumptions and expectations that we bring in about having our own needs met and Thriving because I'll get everything I want from this relationship.
I think puts us on the wrong foot from the outset really, in my opinion, the healthiest model of a relationship is more of a selfless one.
Yes, we have personal grievances, yes, we have resentments and needs, of course we do that build up over time, we need to express those.
But if I can take into an approach of how can I help my partner thrive?
If that's my goal and we're both doing that, you're going to have a beautiful relationship generally.
Really, is understanding what the other one needs and what the, how the other one is.
What you've sort of brought up there is interesting to me and I think it's absolutely right but I've found that there's been a few things that we've talked about on this podcast with different guests that have touched on relationships that I have found difficult to square.
I've realised over time two pieces of advice that we've given or guests have given and we've talked about that I think in some circumstances clash a little bit that I think is worth acknowledging.
I think it talks to that.
One is our discussions about the mental load and trying to make the unseen scene as far as their jobs in a household or in a relationship and the idea of a quality there.
And then also when Lael Stone was on, I brought up the idea of sort of keeping score of like different things going on in a, in a household in a bad way.
They're keeping score.
Yeah, like I was like, yeah, or in a healthy mental list way.
Well, here's the, here's the, I think that maybe it's not so much a contradiction, but there's a lot more nuance in this that I think I would love to ask you about and talk about because I think when a relationship is uneven in what's going on, whether it's, whether it's the workload of the house or whether it's free time to go and like, whether someone's going off with their friends a lot and the other person is sort of taking care of kids.
I think the pressure is laid on more when you've got kids because there's less time.
Then the idea of saying I should just be selfless and give to the other person when I'm also the one doing most of the work, I think it's really hard to get to a point where you can do that without some level of score checking.
And so I just felt like it's been a thing that's been going on in my head that has been hard to square, because I'm like I think they're both applicable in certain places.
But it does feel dangerous when you get to a point of like, I guess, I guess it's different between keeping track and keeping score maybe and trying to get points.
But I think it's, for me, it's been realistic to acknowledge in my own relationship that it's not really fair to say all the time, I should just be thinking of what the other person needs.
No, that's right. Yeah, that's, that's a really good point.
And of course there's nuance that we need to dig in on to really understand what that means.
I guess it's the philosophy, isn't it?
Other centeredness as a philosophy is what I'm recommending here.
The practical application of that becomes more specific and interesting to the individual.
And you're right, the goal is balance, whatever that means for you and your partner, in as healthy a way as possible with their needs in mind.
So that provides a framework to answer that challenge for the individuals.
Clearly, the practicalities of running a household together are really hard to find true balance, and it might be that you want different things or that your sense of what you need is actually not compatible with what the other person wants or needs as well, or the practicalities of raising kids or earning money or running the household.
Yeah, this is hard.
You know, so I don't have a one size fits all answer to that.
Yeah. That's to work on with the individual, But the philosophy of other -centredness I find tends to be very helpful, especially in a setting where people bring in their personal gripes, resentments and hang -ups that they're holding on to.
To realise true connection comes from me getting into your headspace and what you need and want.
And when we're both doing that imbalance, it can lead to great things.
Amazing. I think it also leads to a sense of equality.
Like if I come in very stressed about something and even if I don't deserve 20 minutes, if it's been a really stressful day, for whatever reason, even if I don't deserve sort of 20 minutes to myself, if for whatever reason says, I think you need like just take 10 or 15 minutes, do something to go for a walk around the block, just have a bit of time to yourself to get in a bit of head space.
That puts me in a head space where I can then do that in return.
So there's a kind of humility implied, isn't there, but an other -centeredness, It's like I'm going to try in this relationship to put my needs second to yours.
My goal is to help you thrive.
Now that's going to be really unhealthy if only one party is doing that.
Let's be clear. And it's possible that someone who didn't do that could easily take advantage of someone else and end up in a very unbalanced relationship that was incredibly unhealthy.
So very clear that this only works when both parties are invested in the concept.
But we are quite selfish creatures.
I think we see the world through our own eyes, we experience our own needs first.
So it takes insight and awareness to constantly remind ourselves, no, put them first.
What do they need? How can I help them thrive?
So it takes practice, I think.
But also incredibly rewarding, like once we get away from my own needs deficit or where I'm at in terms of what I want for myself.
The project becomes, I'm just gonna help you have the best possible life.
You know it just hums along when both are doing that and it's cut and also I've found that the balance doesn't necessarily have to be consistently equal.
Like you can have like eras because so Jam has she's been like struggling mental health wise for a couple of weeks and I feel like this is like I step up now for like a couple of weeks it's imbalanced but that's okay because I know there'll be times or I'm really busy and can't do all the things I'm doing and then jam will step up or I'll be in a bad mental health place and she'll step up.
Ryan, you've done it again.
You've just nailed another core element of the discussion today.
At what point do I start winning money?
I don't know. I think he just became a relationship therapist.
Fine. Okay. Because you've now raised the point that we absolutely have to focus on, which is that relationships are not static.
they do not stay still, they're constantly evolving.
So truly a healthy view of a relationship is to acknowledge it's always gonna change.
There are going to be seasons.
It's gonna shift, we have to adapt to them and with them in order to keep them healthy.
That's something I think people forget and they often come into counseling having let it go stagnant or treat the relationship like it's just, well, we don't need to look after that because that's locked in, we've got other priorities now.
But as soon as you do that, you can start the drift.
to me it feels because obviously relationships are changing and ever evolving stemmed from the fact that people are ever changing exactly.
Yeah and I think when I it always kind of baffles me like the person that like when me and Soph and I met, we've been together for about 13 years now, like we were completely different human beings back then and when you think about how much change happens it's kind of wild that any relationship stay together.
Yeah. people don't believe we are monogamous, you know, that there's something about human nature that says we're just not built for these kinds of relationships.
Many people, you know, ascribe to that.
Or believe that inevitably relationships are doomed to fail or decline or get worse over time.
And I would agree with that, if you don't treat them as organic living, you know, growing, changing objects.
If you think of it as static that I'm gonna be with someone and that kind of, you know, puppy love and excitement that we have at the beginning is going to be sustainable or you're in for a, you know, a bit of a shock.
Yeah. Is that, that's unsustainable.
It's not possible that that can be what a relationship is ongoing.
And also very, feels very controlling to want it to be static.
Feels very controlling.
It's just probably an unhealthy expectation.
Yeah. You know, it is going to change.
You're going to change and you have to change with it and together.
But on, on some of that we were talking about this knowing that you were coming in today, we were talking about yesterday, lunch and the thought came to me, and I'm sorry if I do another, if I nail something else here.
Apologies in advance, but no, it's sort of a case.
So I was going to march in the door and give you a qualification for a second.
I'll reject it, but no, I'll take it.
But it occurred to me like the word, and the, I guess the concept of divorce has a really negative connotation and feels like a sense of failure and and it just sort of occurred to me.
I was like well maybe divorce doesn't have to be a bad thing in some cases like in some cases maybe the relationship has reached the end just because two people have been married.
It doesn't mean they just now have to make it work forever.
No that's right I think that's very true we we've had a bit of a focus so far on I guess healthy relationships and trying to make them work but of course there are many very unhealthy be quite toxic relationships out there that people find themselves in for different reasons or over time, a relationship has become unhealthy that started healthy.
And yes, breaking up is the right answer.
It's not a given that when people come in for counseling, that my advice will be you should stay together.
I'm very optimistic and positive and a bit romantic even.
I do believe that people can make relationships work and that there's a wide range within which we can discover a healthy relationship.
But there are some things like, as we said at the beginning of this chat, if your relationships are unhealthy, you are unhealthy.
And if the relationship cannot be fixed for various reasons because there's something deeply wrong from the outset or that has kind of – unfortunately kind of decayed over time, then yes the right answer is to separate.
And just while we're on that, I guess a tangential thing was a lot of married couples will give me their reason that they've stayed in an unhealthy relationship, is I'm doing it for the kids.
We're staying together for the kids because we don't want to disrupt their life.
I've got to be careful here because there's no one -size -fits -all to that.
But often, that's a really unhelpful concept, because what you're doing, in a sense, is staying in a relationship that might have died.
There's no love in it anymore.
We're doing it for the kids, but what are we modeling?
What are we showing them?
And what are we imprinting on them in terms of their expectations about what relationships are, what love is, how parents would treat each other?
And it ends up actually creating something far worse potentially than separating and doing that in as amicable away as possible, which is not always easy.
And then setting up a blended family or new homes or going a separate ways and modeling that relationships can end in a healthy way.
It's far more challenging, but that's a big topic.
Yeah. I'm sure there are millions of factors that play into whether a divorce can be amicable or not, but removing stigma must help.
But I would encourage anyone that's thinking that way to try first, like to, you know, there's so much that can be gained from having real honest conversations, potentially in a professional setting, to work through this stuff before you come to that, that point.
You know, there is a lot of hope for change and renewal in a relationship in the same the risk for personal individual therapy.
But yes, at a certain point, I will sometimes say to people in the room, I don't think this relationship should last or can last.
What are some of the most common things that you hear when people come to see?
There are things you're like, I wish I could just announce this to many people because people need to know this.
Usually, it's a communication breakdown.
I know that's probably not a very exciting answer, so that it's true.
That's just couples have stopped communicating at some point or found it difficult or feel it not listen to.
And one partner will tend to recommend that coming in for couples therapy.
It's rare that both are equally excited and ambitious for it.
I've heard of like different stories from people I know who have gone to couples counseling and one person has definitely suggested that they go and then there are a little bit disappointed because the focus becomes on them and their childhood.
And they're like, no, no, no, I've brought them here so you can tell them why he's wrong.
Yes. Yes, yes that again, I mean this is a theme today, I'm sorry guys, but you've nailed it again.
Oh. This is getting old.
But I'll sit with it.
OK. So now you've, I guess, raised the topic of emotional boundaries.
It's a big mess, right?
They often come in having not communicated well for a long time, and it's very intense.
And it's hard to work out like who owns the feeling, because it's just in the room.
So one of the goals is to try and use the principle that we all need to use.
Ultimately, if you feel it, you own it.
It's your feeling, it's your emotion.
That can be quite a confronting thing, especially to say to a couple that's come in with exactly what you've just said, the sense that I've got a shopping list of everything they're doing to make me feel this way.
It's like, okay, but I'm gonna challenge you to say, if you feel that you actually have to own that.
That's your response, that's your experience of it.
I'm not saying that's blame, but it's true because at the end of the day we can only manage our own feelings.
We can only work with our own feelings.
We cannot change another person.
We can change ourselves.
Now both again need to be doing that and be on board if that's gonna land anywhere helpful, but it's true.
I think that's pretty amazing advice, not just for romantic relationships for any work, friendship?
You feel it, you own it.
Yeah. We are very quick a lot of the time to prescribe blame when we feel something.
I feel this because you did that, but it's quite empowering, I think, like while people might find it challenging to hear that and even feel like it's criticism, it's not intended that way.
It's just true. It's more empowering when we go, okay, well, if I'm feeling jealous, resentful, angry, pissed off, whatever, I gotta own that feeling, why am I feeling that way?
And it actually, through the course of therapy or just self -awareness, we realize it's not really about because your partner stacked the dishwasher wrong.
Like there's something deeper that it's tapping into.
Might go back to childhood.
Might be like quite significantly deep and personal within us.
So once we go, okay, I feel that I own that.
I'm responsible for that reaction, then real change can start to happen.
There's that, what's that three sided column?
I always think about this And it's essentially like this concept of a, think of a three -sided column on one side of the col, on one side - Yeah, it's like a triangle.
Yeah, that's not a column, is it?
Well it's like a, it's like a column, but there are three sides.
I cannot for the life of me picture it, but I wanted to keep going.
Yep. An extended triangle?
Like a Toblerone. Think of a Silas, a box.
A Toblerone, a Toblerone.
Yep. Yep, yep. Yeah.
Okay, yes. A Toblerone box.
One side it says, poor me.
Second side it says, that bad person.
And then the third side it says, what can I do now?
And the, where I heard this first, it said, we spend most of our time looking at the column, we can only see two sides, you can only ever see two sides.
And we can only ever see that bad person and poor me.
and most of when we feel something we always say, that bad person or poor me, whereas what we should be doing is flipping it to that third side and thinking what can I do now?
Yes. Which is really similar to what you just said.
Absolutely, yeah. So I mean, that's, it's just a starting point in the conversation.
Once we've kind of cleared up the emotional mess and worked out, okay, who owns what, right?
So I encourage people to talk about, this is just basic emotional intelligence, but what are you feeling, right?
but try and explain what you feel with I am feeling statements.
Not you make me feel.
But I own this. I feel it.
I feel resentment when you do.
I feel jealous when that happens so that we've got the ownership.
Both parties do that, then we can start to clear the air.
So yeah, Penny and I do counseling, as you know, the wonderful man called Thomas and he, when we actually break down what he does, he's just the whole session is getting us to say how we feel.
And, like, he'll say to me, how do you feel, Hugh?
And I'll say, I feel lonely because of this.
And then he'll say, OK, now you turn to Penny and say that, and I'll go, oh, I just kind of said it.
She definitely heard that.
And he said, but I need you to say it to her.
And then we both get the giggles because we have to face each other, and I have to say it again.
But like, the whole session is saying how we feel about something.
And when you hear how someone feels, it changes everything.
Rather than what's happened, they're like the thing they're not happy with when you hear how they feel about it.
I cannot believe how different it makes it.
It's such a shift because usually you're being pointed out and blamed for something and someone saying like, oh, I wish you did this, why can't you do this?
And then you automatically get defensive and you try and defend yourself.
Whereas when you hear how someone, if there's any sort of love in the relationship, hearing that the person that you love is like her, Yeah, it is like heartbreaking like shit.
That's not good that.
Yeah, you feel like that Yeah, so often and then so penny nine out well, we try to do Is when Thomas isn't there which is most of the time actually?
On the rare occasion Thomas, we are soon to move in but he didn't want to.
I'll do my head to try and think, even if Penny's not sad, I'll try and think like how's she feeling right now?
Like, I want it. Like, what is she feeling?
And I, I don't feel comfortable saying just how do you how do you feel?
But I'm trying to think like how does she feel right now?
Yeah, because it just, it completely disarms the whole situation.
How does this person that I love feel right now?
And if ever you feel they're hurt or they're lonely or they're whatever it is, it changes the way you feel.
It makes it easier to go, it makes it easier to take that step to go like, well, what can I do for you?
Yeah, it does. It creates true intimacy and authentic connection.
There's one thing I'd add to that, which is partly what we talked about last time in terms of the importance of self -compassion, trying to look at ourselves in the most generous way we can and tell our story in the most generous way we can is very good for our own mental health.
The same is true in a relationship.
it when someone tells you how they feel, try and have the most generous read you can of that emotional response and get to the core of why they're feeling that in a kind way.
Because you could interpret that that if I said for example I'm feeling a lot of resentment that I do a lot of the work.
You could go to a defensive place and say well I've just been, you know at work for eight hours myself, you know I've been working hard too.
Because that is a common one isn't it?
Where you will share something about how you're feeling and the other person very quickly makes it about their experience.
Yeah, but it is human nature to sometimes go to a defensive place when we feel critiqued or attacked.
I remember you guys talking about it when you did that conversation around the mental loads.
Your initial reaction was to feel quite defensive and I think a lot of people had that experience.
I had it too, you know, when we had that conversation at home, I was surprised a little bit actually how defensive I became, how quickly I became it, how I wanted to defend the things that I do and how I do them.
So I think it's human nature to start from that point of view.
So don't be too critical of yourself if you're listening to this going, I always kind of get defensive.
What I'm recommending for myself and everyone else is that we take note of it, pause as quickly as you can, and recognize what's happening, admit it to your partner, I'm actually feeling a bit triggered by that.
I'm feeling a bit defensive.
I feel a bit frustrated at what you've just said, but that's mine, I own that, give me a sec.
I'll, I'll come back to this and try again.
This speaks to an idea of like the concept.
I think it's expressed in the like, don't go to bed on an argument or yes.
Full stomach. Don't let the sunset on your anger is is that the idea?
Yeah, that's the same.
Yeah. And a full stomach.
That doesn't seem right.
Yeah, that's correct.
Yeah. So I'd call that a bit of a, yeah, that's it.
That's a bit of a cultural cliche.
and it does make sense that the principle is good.
It's like, let's try and resolve our conflicts is what that's trying to say.
But in reality, don't let the sun go down on your anger means we got to solve it right now.
I disagree, because we are first and foremost emotional creatures, not rational ones.
And unfortunately, just by nature of being human, we often bring emotional reasoning into an argument when we think we're being rational.
And the more heightened we are, the less likely we are to say what we actually really mean or want to say.
And it might be coming through that filter of defensiveness or anger or frustration and it can get really hurtful.
Obviously, that can be the worst kind of arguments is where you're trying to resolve something but actually you're just adding more wounds and making it more complicated and more difficult.
So that that I feel like this exact thing happened with Jam and I on the weekend.
Yeah. Where we were at lunch with people and she said something and I didn't really back her up and she felt alone in it.
And straight afterwards she brought her up and she was quite upset about it.
And we were in a disagreement about it and so we were sort of talking and it kind of, we were supposed to be going straight from the lunch with these people to the beach.
And so, it was this really nice day and then her bringing that up, in my mind, was like, oh, this brought the mood down.
And so now we're in this kind of conflict, sort of argument.
But in, you know, harsh tones, you know, the quiet arguments where there are people around.
And you try and like, you try to make your body language seem like everything's fine.
In reality, it's like really tense.
And no one can read that.
Yeah, no one can read that apparently.
So we were in that.
And because it's exactly like you're saying, James, is like we couldn't resolve it, it just sort of, it fizzled out.
But it was still tense and then the night after Jam said, how could I've done that differently?
And I said, and this is me asking for your advice.
And if this was the right thing to say, I said, well, maybe if you instead of like talking to me about it immediately, if you waited a little while, like to think about it and then wait till that night or when we're at home or whatever, and if it's still really bugging you, or even if it's not still really bugging you, bring it up.
and then the emotion, it's not as emotional, what would have been the correct thing to do, not for necessarily for her, but for us?
Yeah, that's okay. That's not bad advice at all.
I mean, sometimes it is good to wait, but also it's perfectly reasonable to tell your partner if you're annoyed about something and we should, in fact we should be encouraging each other to do that in our relationships more often actually, but not necessarily to try and resolve it on the spot.
Because if we're feeling emotional and triggered, yeah, you're just not going to be able to access all your complex thoughts.
I guess that's probably what you're describing here, like when you have that kind of brain pause that you mentioned.
It's probably a fight or flight response and a kind of shut down mentally and emotionally.
Is that right? Or is it actually a stroke?
I don't know, I just get so confronted by everything.
I just can't think of what to say.
I'm the same. If I ever get a discussion of specially, I mean with Soph more than anyone in the world, I think, if something is, if there's conflict there and about something in the household especially, I just can't think.
Yeah, I completely shut down.
But these are all natural defense mechanisms.
And we don't like conflict, most of us.
Some people do. But most of us don't like conflict.
So trying to think of conflict as healthy kind of goes against the grain a little bit.
But it truly is. Like, remember, you know, the relationship is constantly evolving.
And it's through honest communication about what we're experiencing and where we're up to that keeps it going.
And just, I guess, in that sense, a reminder that winning this argument is not the goal.
Yeah. And I think that was really, just to touch on again what you said before, in sort of response to what I asked you, I think that's a really interesting distinction, the difference between what I asked, which is probably the wrong question, which was like, how long should someone wait before bringing up a gripe versus like, it's not about how long, but it's more about realizing that you don't need to come up with a resolution and you don't need to.
There doesn't need to be like a full stop on this argument where one of us is proven right.
So I mean, you know, if I were working with you, that would be something I'd be working with you on to try and get out of the framework and that would take practice.
Yeah. It's okay to have a natural competitiveness in you and want to feel right.
But is that the healthiest framework to bring to a relationship?
Probably not. Yeah, so good.
I've noticed definitely since counseling, like the analogy I have my head is, I don't know if you guys have ever been to like a crocodile farm and like there's heaps of crocodiles lying around and they're completely still.
Have you guys seen that?
Like, they're not. Yeah.
And then they throw a big piece of meat in and all of a sudden the crocodiles go from nothing to just like going crazy, trying to grab them.
And they're like rolling over each other, fighting for it.
Do you know that? I'm hoping this is a metaphor.
That's just a weird story.
It's like, yeah, that's weird, isn't it?
Also, I'm going to tell you about giraffes and do some funny things too.
Yeah. You know how the visual of that, like two crocodiles lying next to each other, not even moving, then it gets round about and they start fighting each other trying to bite each other's head off.
Before Pennino went to counseling, that kind of felt like nothing would be happening, be be completely docile.
And then the house and Sunny would have him again.
We'd just be like, removing each others' heads off.
It would just go from zero to 100.
When someone through meat at you.
Someone rides past those hunger meat through the window.
But then having had counseling, I feel like we're more qualified to have conflict because of counseling, like it's helped us to.
So what's happening there?
If you don't mind talking about it a little bit, What has changed?
We didn't know how to have, and we're still not, we're still learning how to do it, but we didn't know to have, we didn't, when we disagreed on something or when the resentment had built up, and we tried to talk about, we didn't really know how to talk about it in a way that resolved the issue.
In fact, it often resulted in me sulking for 24 hours, basically.
Do you think it's because you trust each other more now?
In being able to have those kinds of conversations and...
I like the fear. We've had, like, what's the best analogy?
Crocodiles. He's struggling.
You know, an alligator?
It's like, we've had, like this muscle memory of having a difficult conversation and getting to a really good place.
With Thomas, Thomas holds our hand and he takes us through...
No, not actually. So he will guide us through a disagreement or conflict in a way that involves a lot of us turning to each other and saying how we feel about something and we've gone through a process of like, oh, we can disagree on something massively and be really angry with the other person and then finish that conversation by feeling so much love for them and so much understanding and so much like, I want to make their life better in however I can in that scenario.
So we've experienced how great it can be.
so then when we're by ourselves and something comes up, I think it's like, we have done this.
It's like, it's kind of the training wheels like, oh my God, there's no training wheels, can we do this without time?
Sometimes Penny will go, like we'll be halfway through a panel gate, just making a point with Thomas, I don't know, we're like when they told us this one, but a lot of the time I feel like, like the other day I did something which felt crazy, but we were like, it was a quite a fluent argument.
And it was in the mode of like one we're both trying to win desperately here.
And then she said to me, I went, ah, yeah.
Yeah, I can imagine that would have been really bad.
I'm really sorry. And she looked very confused.
But then straight away she was like trying to understand me and then all of a sudden it's just like, it was like taking the air out of it.
Like popping a balloon and just like in a goodbye combined allergies are not really on today.
But yeah, because Thomas has given us experience of knowing we can go from a bad place to a really good place within one conversation.
It's possible. And that's a great example of the change that can happen.
and it's very rare that it's just done.
Like it takes practice to create new habits, new neural pathways.
You know, just to reference what we talked about last time with our wonky bricks, where we all have this history we bring with us, to any, you're not having that fight or a conflict in isolation.
You're bringing your entire emotional history with you and everything you've experienced before and your attachment styles from when you were younger and the traumas of getting hurt or rejected or feeling left out when you were, you know, a child, is informing every moment.
So we have to retrain the brain, you know, like all that stuff's not going away, it's still there.
But we can redirect it into healthier pathways and strengthen those new neural connections and associations through practice.
Yeah, insight is helpful.
Coming along and going, ah yeah, I get it now.
Emotional boundaries are helpful.
But to actually create lasting positive change, it's practice and repetition, and constantly reminding yourself when you have this default reaction that doesn't have to be the last word.
That's just where I start from.
And that change can be so, can feel so strange, and I think particularly for couples who, like met in high school maybe and are then dated for ten years.
and so it's like, they kind of, you meet as teenagers and then kind of develop a relationship based on like teenage dynamic and then you as naturally as you get through your 20s you kind of change and realize who you actually are outside of school and then it's like can the relationship, is the relationship still relevant because you're such different people than you were when you were like 16?
Well, obviously a lot of relationships do break up at that time.
Yeah, but not all of them.
You know, you can evolve and stay together.
I mean, some of my best friends you know, I met when they were teenagers and are still married years later.
It's beautiful to see, but yeah, they adapt and they're pretty secure within themselves as well.
And I think that's a key ingredient that we can't ignore that doing work on yourself really is important to bringing the best to a relationship as well.
I mean, that's another whole topic.
It's like the what role does independence play within a relationship?
Do you want me to answer?
That would be awesome.
I mean, I could try, but I trust your answer more.
Yeah, independence as in how much time do I spend away from the relationship or how independent am I within it?
Both. So this taps into something that I also like to talk to couples about.
It's kind of a need versus want model of relationship, where do you need to be in the relationship to fulfill some part of you that feels like it's missing or to compensate for your insecurities Or, you know, I think I was guilty of that when I was younger, definitely of thinking a relationship is gonna solve all of my self doubts and I'm just going to feel so loved and validated.
But it actually wasn't until I met my now wife that I realized, you know, no, it's actually not that I need to be okay on my own terms, like she is.
I have to rise to that level and figure out a way to be okay within myself, so that I can want the relationship rather than need it.
And that's something that everybody listening can just check in with within themselves.
Like how much am I projecting on my partner to fulfill my emotional needs because I'm broken and hurting?
Your relationship will be healthier if you can do that work for yourself and lift yourself up.
That's a complex challenge but it can be a really healthy one.
So yeah, then once you have two people who are quite secure within themselves, independence in a relationship is healthy and fine.
Um, and things like jealousy become less relevant and controlling behaviour.
You know, you see a lot of this in very unhealthy relationships where there is a strong jealousy about who your partner's with or what they're going through.
That might refer back to very legitimate trauma and pain that you've suffered.
So, uh, that's interesting.
So jealousy people who are consistently jealous of the other person, like for no real rational reason, um, comes from a place of them not being secure within themselves.
Oh, that's the basis of jealousy.
We're insecure, so we feel jealous a lot of the time.
And so that person is potentially looking to the relationship because they need it, as opposed to want it.
The need might be if I'm with you, I don't need to feel insecure anymore, but I just need you not to talk to anyone of the opposite sex ever again.
That's an extreme example, but you do see that sometimes in unhealthy relationships.
Yeah. And often I feel like for this particular example, let's say it's a male -female relationship and the male is a controlling partner and says to his partner, I don't want you talking to any other man.
That can come across as a very kind of a powerful person and someone who was very much confident, and it's not a surprise to hear that actually beneath that is like severe insecurity.
That's right. And it can be very, very hard for a person in a relationship, to acknowledge that within themselves to actually take on board the awareness and insecurity to realize, hey, that's mine.
Like we talked about before the kind of, if I feel that I own it, if you're jealous, that's actually your jealousy.
It's not necessarily what the other person is doing.
It could be, but most likely it's yours to have to resolve.
That can actually create massive breakthroughs in working with people.
once people take ownership of that sort of thing.
Also, I imagine, can be really annoying to hear that the thing you're feeling isn't their fault.
Yes. Yeah. So, I feel like before we move on, it's just almost public service announcement.
If you're in a relationship and listening to this and your partner is controlling in the sense of I don't want you seeing them, or doing this or doing that, I'm just telling you now that's unhealthy.
And you should seek help for that or talk about that because you can lose perspective.
of... You can find that, you know, you just develop that as a habit and that becomes your norm.
I've worked with so many beautiful people who don't realise they're being controlled by an insecure partner.
So do talk about it and do seek help for that.
And also acknowledging, I guess, on that, anyone who is in a relationship that I feel physically safe and are scared to do anything, like going to talk to anyone or seek professional help because I don't feel safe.
That's just, I'm sure there are people.
Please do, please do seek help because yeah, it can change your life, so profoundly, people can often feel quite trapped in unhealthy relationships and are often quite trapped.
I mean, this is a very serious and huge topic we're touching on now, but yes, of course, relationships can be the best thing in life, but they can be the absolute worst and be quite abusive.
So while this is a huge topic that we really won't have time to go into fully today, I know that, but if you are someone who is experiencing domestic violence or coercive control in your relationship please do seek some help.
There are many great resources available.
You can call 1800RESPECT or just speak to a trusted health professional.
So important. I'm willing to those services in the show notes.
You mentioned before attachment styles.
I feel like everyone else nodded as if that's a thing I should know about because I've never really heard that phrase.
and I don't quite understand what it means.
Do you want to take this on?
Yeah, please, yeah.
That'd be great. Yeah, look, this is at the core of developmental psychology and it relates to the fact that our attachment styles generally, to our primary caregivers or parents, has a fundamental impact in Prince at a very deep neurological and psychological level about how safe and loved we feel in the world.
So if you are lucky enough to be born into a family where you have attentive, loving parents that create a safe space for you, you will likely develop a healthy attachment style.
Whereby you feel that love and safety no matter where you are, and you feel comfortable and confident to go out in the world and feel secure as a Head Start to go, well, no matter what happens to me, I've got a safe home base.
And once that idea takes root, it's really, really helpful, obviously, for good mental health in this world and many, many good things flow from healthy attachment.
On the flip side, if you are unlucky enough to have an unsafe home or a parent that is not emotionally available to you, you may develop an anxious or insecure attachment style whereby you feel like you have to earn love or negotiate love or compensate for a lack of love where a part of you will just believe fundamentally, that I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy or I I cannot trust people to be there for me.
So you can imagine the cost, you know?
If that's happened to you as a small person in this world and everything you've learned or grown since, right?
This is the pyramid of self that you will take that attachment style into your relationships potentially, and assume that you'll get hurt or assume the person won't be there for you or assume they will let you down because that is your point of reference at a very deep embedded level.
self esteem and worthy of love and self -worth to me feel that they could, I mean my case could feel very separate.
Like I think I'm definitely someone who is lucky enough to be born into a very loving household but for whatever reason at points in my life I've had pretty low self -worth however that hasn't translated into love.
Like I've always felt unheard of love in my romantic relationship.
I've never felt like I needed um there was anxiety about that or I was unworthy or but it has manifested in other areas.
It's strange to me that I could have, it's always been surprising to me that I've been very low for a very long time about many things, but it's never encroached on my relationship.
Yeah that's interesting.
I mean that could be that attachment style then is not the best um ex, thing to explain your insecurities you've suffered.
It might be other things.
You might have started from a healthy attachment place but then I mean as you've been very honest about, there have been other things you've gone through in your life that have caused moments of vulnerability and insecurity that have shaped you in other ways.
But it might be from a relational point of view that you actually do feel quite safe because you did experience healthy attachment as a child.
Yeah just interesting that you can have a lot of things going on at once.
Yeah but it's certainly something to be aware of and everybody listening to not only think about their attachment style that they grew up with but also that of their partner and that can help frame how you problem solve together.
Yeah. It was something that Jam and I talked about early on I don't know why I think we must have stumbled across the book the there's I think there's a specific is I'm sure a bunch of books about attachment styles but specific book we stumbled across and we both you can figure out your attachment style relatively quickly.
I just remember when I learnt what Jam's Attachment star was, and like read the two paragraphs about what that means, it just instantly helped me understand who she is and what's important to her.
Yep. And it can just give you like a really little mini blueprint of what you need to do as, yep.
We should definitely put a link to that book in the show notes.
Yeah, I mean, there'll be countless websites and you know, it's a common thing, I think, yeah.
And when we talk about having a generous read of our partner, and where they're coming from and what they're feeling.
Thinking about attachment style can actually help us get into that mindset of just because they're bringing a huge emotional response to this moment.
I don't have to feel threatened or hurt or challenged.
I can put it in the context of this is so understandable given how they were raised or where they've come from, or why they might be feeling this way.
I think this speaks to human experience in general, but it's so hard to detach my own experience from other people's emotions and just assume that the way they're displaying is equivalent to me.
So if someone's like going off that to me would be like the world's ending because if I was to really lose it that would be the like, I don't think I ever really have a very rare occasions completely lost it in say anger or something like that.
And so I apply my own lived experience on them and think that that must be them at 1000 out of 10.
Yeah. Oh, no, that's such a natural starting point.
But of course, pretty much the opposite is true.
We all have our own emotional worlds and we're trying so hard to understand them.
So, yeah, good advice is be careful that you're not projecting your expectations or understanding of what the other person should or could be going through.
But we've got to try and get inside their lived experience and hear it from their point of view.
So, intimacy in a relationship, there is often a huge discrepancy with need for intimacy.
Yes. Am I right in saying that's a very common issue that would arise?
Yeah, almost 100 % of the time it's something that couples need to work on finding their balance.
Incredibly rare that both couples will express themselves and has the same needs in terms of intimacy.
So it's the first thing, often, to go I would say in a couple that's struggling.
Intimacy tends to decline and often by the time they've come to me, they haven't had sex or been intimate in a very long time because they're so emotionally so far apart.
But on the flip side, I would say it's an incredibly important thing to talk about and be honest about and potentially bring into a counselling setting as well to talk about because it's essential to us, as humans, you know, to figure this out and to be honest.
So it can be influenced by a range of things I suppose in terms of your cultural expectations or concepts of femininity or masculinity or what's normal or compare ourselves to others.
Sometimes it can even be a slightly competitive thing or an insecurity.
We feel like if, you know, if that side of my life's going really well, then I'll feel really good about myself and I don't need to be insecure anymore.
Ideally, it's something that you've communicated very honestly about your personal needs, how you feel, how you feel most loved, and you find a kind of balance together, which might sometimes involve self sacrifice a little bit on your part if your partner is someone who wants or needs physical intimacy less than you do.
Or it might be something where you try and be more mindful of it if you're not naturally perhaps as sexually motivated as your partner.
As long as you're being honest, then it's possible to find that balance.
But incredibly rare that you're going to find yourself in a relationship where you're both just on an even understanding of what you want and need.
Okay, so for anyone listening who's in a relationship and they're thinking, well, that's me.
We're my partner and I.
We haven't had sex in six months, 12 months, whatever it is.
How on earth do they initiate that conversation?
It's going to take a huge act of vulnerability to start with.
... How do you bring that up?
It's a really difficult thing, isn't it?
Because it's demonstrative of a breakdown in intimacy in general, in the relationship.
It suggests to me that communication has broken down and there is a lack of connection across the board.
I think catching that conversation in the general sense of, Hey, I don't think we're connecting in general, would be where I would start.
That might be less intense than perhaps going straight to the physical conversation.
Oh, so you had making a general thing about, I'm thinking more of practicalities of like, is it over dinner?
Is it like going for a walk?
Like, is there a way that people can...
What's the best environment to bring this up and which particular restaurant is the best one?
To have the sex conversation?
To have the sex chat.
Yeah, I don't know that I would have any specific example of that, but your partner might find it intimidating.
You know, it's a personal...
Or shameful. Or shameful.
It's a vulnerable conversation.
So, in general, I guess a good way of approaching challenging conversations is to think about timing.
For one, not to do it during a really busy time when your partner is distracted or focused on other things.
Try and actually create a moment where it's just you guys and you can focus on each other.
A general good advice as well is to catch it in, look, I'm not bringing this up to try and insult you.
You know, I'm not saying it to try and hurt you or even judge you.
I just want you to know how I feel about this and I'm really keen to know how you feel.
Obviously, it's a really vulnerable conversation, and it's not going to be easy to be vulnerable in this way, especially if it's been a really, really long time.
And if it's been a part of you that has shut down or that you've been avoiding or just been feeling resentful or hurt about.
but all my encouragement to you, it is such an important part of a healthy relationship.
So I know it requires trust, but trying to be honest about what you feel and catch the relationship in non -judgment as much as possible.
Just remember, it's important and it's something that a lot of couples are going through.
So have the courage to bring it up and potentially bring it to a counselor as well if need be.
And of course, that goes for all aspects of a relationship that might be difficult to bring up or you might feel vulnerable to say, it's just so important to remember that communication is absolutely essential to any healthy relationship and healthy conflict.
Because I feel like it's like whichever way the discrepancy lies, one person needs intimacy more than the other person, it's not either person's fault.
It's just the discrepancy, that's the issue.
It's not one person or the other.
But I think we can all agree, it can lead to real feelings of either resentment or rejection or deep hurt when we feel like we're mismatched with our partner on this, so it could be a couple of things.
It could just be that you have different expectations and wants and needs in terms of how you express love, or it could reflect something far deeper, you know, in terms of feeling safe with another person, or having experienced some sort of traumatic sexual experience in the past.
You know, the capacity to be honest and open and trusting, we probably haven't talked enough about trust yet in this conversation, because obviously, that is the core ingredient to any relationship.
But more so when it comes to physical intimacy is that trust is essential.
Because you can't...
because I think like in intimacy, we probably just naturally develop an idea of what we think should be expected.
You know, so we would just assume particularly in new relationships, but even relationships that go for a long time, if you never talk about it, you would just assume that because we're not doing X...
Sex? Because we're not doing sex. Because we're not doing this particular thing, we are falling short.
But in truth, there's obviously no right way.
It's all about what both people want to do, and that could look like something that's completely different than what we all just grew up thinking is that, well we should be doing this particular move and this particular move.
And if we're not doing either, then we're a weird couple, which is just not true.
No, I mean, if we take what we talked about earlier, like it's that other centeredness again.
It's like, how can I just uplift and enrich them?
Yeah, how can I help them feel most loved?
How can I meet them at their needs and finding balance in that?
Again, you're not going to start from the same place, but if the attitude is one of I just love this person, I want to enrich them and figure out how they feel most loved.
That tends to be a healthy approach.
While we're on this topic, I guess, for young people now in particular, we can't ignore the fact that there's a lot of data around, particularly boys, and their exposure to pornography from a really young age, and how that's skewing attitudes and thoughts about what's normal in sex. Like we can only imagine.
Um, you know, it's not a problem that we grew up with, wasn't available.
But now, you know, I feel so sorry for kids now because so often that's their teacher.
Yeah. And you can only imagine the impact that that's having on young relationships, especially when, you know, they're inexperienced and trying to figure life out.
And the best example of what's normal comes from pornography.
This is a real cultural problem that we have ahead of us.
You know, it's only going to make relationships all the more complex in future as we navigate this.
Yeah, it is such, I can't imagine.
Because it's the age at which boys can potentially be exposed to this pornography teacher.
And then to get an idea of, uh, okay, that's what intimacy looks like, or that's what girls, for example, that's what they expect.
Or the other way, it's like, that's what's expected of me.
And then to not even see it as a problem or as any sort of abuse, so it's really scary.
This is, I guess, an educational issue as much as anything in schools and the importance of teaching respectful relationships and consent and what is normal and not normal, so that pornography is not our number one teacher.
I'll direct everyone's attention to Chanel Contos' workbook.
Her episode that she did with us, everything, yep.
Yeah, her book is Consent Laid Bare but we'll put a link to it there.
How do parents navigate this?
As far as... I've got two boys.
They're very young, but at one point in my life, I'm going to have to have this conversation.
I have no idea what to do.
Yeah, well, I think the average age at which boys start to see porn these days is around 13 .5.
So keep that in mind.
If you're a parent of boys.
Around that age, very, very important that parents are having these conversations in an open and transparent way with their kids, first and foremost about just how it's just so easily accessible now.
So it's almost, it's almost inevitable they're going to be exposed to one way or another, you know, it's either going to be in conversation or someone's going to show it to them or they're going to find it themselves.
So we can't avoid it, for one.
And I know that's confronting for a lot of parents to hear that because it's a really difficult thing to talk about and bring up.
But we have to normalise the fact that, well, this is part of our lives, it's out there, we got to talk about it.
To do that in a way that doesn't scare the young person off or isn't too intimidating, I think a good way around that would be to ask, hey, you know, what's your experience of this?
Have you have you seen anything?
Just to be able to destigmatise the conversation.
If they don't feel they can talk about it, maybe just catch it in from there is nothing we can't talk about.
And that like, there's nothing I will be embarrassed by.
There's nothing I will judge you for.
You can ask me absolutely anything or tell me any experience you've had anything that find you feel weird, I promise you you won't be judged or get in trouble.
That would be a good start.
Yeah. And then to say from there, if they don't want to talk specifics, which is likely, because they'll find that uncomfortable, I would just say, look, porn is a terrible teacher when it comes to what's healthy and realistic even in what makes a relationship good.
That stuff is made by people who couldn't care less about what a good relationship is like.
In fact, all they want to do is hold your attention and get your money.
You know, there's no sense of what it is to be in a respectful relationship, you won't find it there.
So you're going to have to find that elsewhere.
Yeah. Would it be a terrible metaphor to say that, to kind of compare it to, like, if a kid goes and rides in the Dodgeham cars to use that as like a driving lesson?
Yeah, potentially. I was thinking, it's like two crocodiles that are like in water and someone throws some meat in.
Yep. And the crocodile surf in the web and one thing leads to another all.
That's right. A little lad pops up and is like, Oh, what's that?
I'm feeling something about that.
Yeah, I get it. Exactly right.
Great metaphor. Yeah.
No, look, as I'm sitting here going, what's the perfect conversation?
There just there isn't one.
It's just providing, first of all, being willing to have the conversation and just providing an atmosphere where anything can be discussed at any time without judgment.
But just a reminder that respectful relationships are a critical part of our lives.
And you will not find the answers important.
I remember on the way home from in grade five, my primary school had a sex ed night wherever everyone went into the school.
Dad took me, your uncle, And on the way home he asked, he just checked in, so I was about everything.
And I was like mortified with some of the stuff I'd heard.
For example, I heard about wet dreams for the first time.
And I could not understand what was, I was like, no, that can't be real.
Anyway, dad, not on the topic of that, but dad, I remember dad shared a story quite vulnerable from his life.
And I just, we didn't ask me any questions around like, do you have question?
He just told me a story of vulnerable and not, not too vulnerable for 11 year old boys.
boy and that made me feel like I can always talk to Dad.
It's great. I don't know if that was his intention, he just told me a story about what it was like to be a boy when he was growing up and how confusing he found it all.
And I remember thinking this is someone I can talk to about stuff that I find confusing.
That's that's really powerful to hear that and you just know that there'll be a lot of people listening who are very challenged by this directive, this advice.
Because a lot of men struggle to talk about their feelings full stop, women do too, but more traditionally, men find that difficult.
So having these conversations...
It's personally incredibly challenging for us to do that as parents, but just so important.
And you know, worth also mentioning, of course, there gonna be a lot of shame and guilt surrounding adult use of pornography as well.
And we can feel like, well, I can't talk to them about that, I'm carrying my own shame around it.
It's, we have to talk about it, they are going to be seeing it.
They are going to be exposed to some form of this content.
So it, you know, we just have to balance that experience with an honest conversation around what respectful relationships really are.
Just reflecting on that conversation with dad in the car.
Does the fact that we were in the car, we were sitting side by side, he wasn't like eyeballing me.
Like, it just felt very, he didn't look at me at one point, he was just telling me a story about himself, in my head was like, Oh, he trusts me because he's told me that story.
So I can trust him.
I also suspect that it's not just the lessons learnt by kids and teenagers, but also pornography becoming a proxy for actual intimacy.
Yes, in relationships, adults.
Yeah. Throughout the lifespan.
Exactly. Or not even in relationships, but not getting into relationships in the first place because of the proxy that porn has taken.
But it's one of these things that can become avoidant, right?
If you don't want to do the hard work in a relationship of truly getting to know your partner where they're at, yeah, if you feel like you can just kind of meet your needs in this way that can quickly become a pathway, I think, to real disconnection in a relationship, not only for setting unhealthy expectations of the other, but by creating a barrier to true intimacy and authentic connection.
Yeah. That in some cases, of course, leads to a path of breaking trust, whether that's just through use of pornography that the other partner doesn't feel comfortable with, or exploring more avenues of connection with partners outside the relationship through technology.
And I guess it's worth noting about trust, like it's such a core element of every relationship.
You know, this is a cliche, that's actually true.
It's very, very hard to build and very easy to break.
And you know, it takes a long time, you know, when we're talking about honeymoon periods, what you get instead, of course, is by staying the course and really getting to know the other person as you build a beautiful healthy lasting trust.
And I think you guys will agree that there's not much better than feeling that 100 % trust in your partner.
But conversely, obviously a lot of people come to me when trust has been broken, and it's devastating.
You know, it's like throwing a bomb on the relationship.
How do you get it back?
Well, it's really hard work, really hard work.
And, you know, people show up ready to do that work, but in truth, a lot of the time it does result in ultimately accepting, we can't get back because the trust has been shattered, for a variety of reasons.
But it's critical. So, you know, if you have that with your partner, cherish it, look after it, nurture it and protect it.
When trust is broken in a relationship, is it the responsibility of the person who was the breaker of the trust?
Is it their responsibility to kind of do most of the work to rebuild the trust?
They want to, generally by that point.
right? When things have exploded and there has been a breakdown in trust, generally, the person who's broken the trust feels obviously terrible and wants to do everything they can to rebuild that trust.
But in truth, that wound can be so deep in your partner that it requires incredible patience and self -sacrifice in order to go that road to heal it.
Yeah, it just may not happen.
It might just be too painful.
What if the person who broke the trust feels bad but then is kind of gaslidy in the other person wanting to bring it up and sort of, you know, the other person's like, I don't – there's a trust issue.
But the person who broke the trust is like, I apologised.
What do you want – like what else can I say?
You're absolutely right.
There can be a little bit of impatience sometimes at a certain point.
There's like, we've got this sense in how long recovery could or should take.
It's like, okay, yeah, well I know what I did and I won't do it again.
And I've promised you that and I've shown you I'm come on I'm doing my part.
But realistically speaking, it's probably going to take a lot longer than you think.
And yeah, just keep saying the same thing, it may not happen.
It's so core and so critical to a relationship.
If someone shows up session one, saying there's been a trust break, immediately it resets my expectations thinking okay, this is going to be hard work, depending on the extent of the wound.
There's, I think, a bit of an issue which is often rear of its head when we interview a psychologist or talk about psychology in that it's expensive and hard to access.
And that for couples to go and see someone like you, it requires time, energy, money, lots Lots of things that a lot of people don't have.
I'd love to give those people some, I don't know, some kind of hope or tips or help that they can hear from today that feel like they can start doing something to move towards a better relationship that doesn't require all those things.
Yeah because the other one to add to that, it's such a great point, the other one to add to that is like one person desperately wants to do therapy and the other partner is absolutely not completely dead against it i think would be another one too yeah which would be very frustrating it can't be frustrating listening to this like going yeah i want to i would love to but my partner won't yeah that's really difficult when that's the case and yes sometimes it is and sometimes it can feel like someone one partner comes in pretty hostile to the situation and and that yeah often does make it quite difficult
and you might transfer into individual therapy at that point if if one is going to sabotage the experience i suppose as people have listened to this so far they're probably doing a natural bit of analysis of their own relationships and getting a bit of status quo and thinking about it because sometimes we just assume it's fine.
You know, we're so busy and so many things going on the relationship can sometimes take a real backseat.
But just to remember it does need its own love and care and attention, and that it is right to constantly think about the health of your relationship and what you can be doing to try and get back into that headspace of what can I do for them to help them thrive together and to make sure that your communication is as healthy as possible.
So, what that means for you and your partner is gonna differ, but a lot of the time it's setting aside a time every week to have an authentic check -in together, make sure at least once a week you're spending quality time where you're kind of getting a state of the union.
It's like, how are you feeling?
How am I feeling? What do we need?
What do you need? What more can I do?
And just to be honest and as you said, you label your emotion and tell each other how you feel.
And plan things together, you know, like, not just assuming the relationship is going to be fine, but actually plan special time together, the more busy we get.
And when we have kids, that becomes harder, but just be intentional about it and make sure you are setting aside that quality time to spend together.
There's a cultural conception that like, relationship should be really exciting all the time.
And maybe that's just like Hollywood influence, or just, I don't know that.
But the image of relationships we have is that we're just gonna feel so intense.
And look, that that part of our relationship is fun.
But I consider it just like the ignition fluid.
It just gets it off the ground, you know, but that's not the true heart of what a relationship is.
We know for a fact, human brains cannot sustain that level of excitement and that dopamine rush that we get when we first meet someone and fall in love with them.
That's not how brains work.
like we habituate over time, and the more we're exposed to any given stimuli over time, the impact on our brain's lessons.
So, it's important to recognize that the honeymoon period, it won't last, but that's not the heart of what a healthy relationship is.
When Jem and I first got together, we had like the honeymoon period, you know, the first three months, and then after, but I guess I must spend, I don't know, let's say three months, it started, that sort of feeling of that initial excitement started to kind of like dwindle a little bit.
And I think Jam must have brought it up.
And I was like, well, you know, it's the honeymoon, the honeymoon phases over.
And she's like, well, doesn't have to be.
And I think like we now constantly joke about it because we've done so much work on our relationship and it's like improved in different ways for different reasons over the 9 years as we've been together.
But I think at looking back on it, I reckon I used the honeymoon phase almost as an excuse to not have to engage as much.
And I kind of like sort of lent back in the relationship a little bit, went back to my comfort zones, my routine, and instead of like doing the things that she really wanted to do and the things that pushed me out of my comfort zone or the things that I wasn't used to doing, thing, I just I think I stopped being intentionally romantic and use the honeymoon phase as an excuse.
Wow. But then later on I realised I actually I can I can I should still keep doing romantic things, just even though it's not the honeymoon phase, and I think that was like a big realisation where I think for me like Jam thought that was ridiculous that I didn't have to do romantic I can't take things anymore, because I was not in the honeymoon phase.
Yeah. But that was a weird thing that I just thought.
I guess a lot of people just put so much emphasis on how we feel in a relationship.
And it's just not a good indicator of relationship health.
It's a good starting point.
We should definitely check in obviously on how we feel.
But feeling love and romance is obviously so much emphasis put on that in media.
but obviously the reality is a deep trust and authentic connection and true intimacy is much richer than that.
Mm -hmm so a question for a lot of couples is whether or not to try to have children mm -hmm and you know Jam and I have thought about this for years like it's just a constant type of conversation and I think we're pretty close to knowing what's right for us but but I do hear you do hear a lot from couples who think like, all that the relationships may be gone a bit stale, or it's not quite working.
Maybe a kid will unite us maybe like a kid, like having a child and starting a family, maybe that's kind of What's huge, speaking, not James, that was huge.
It's a bit similar.
The less qualified Vancouver.
so I'll hope that might put us on a path of change and it's something exciting, something to look forward to.
Do you see that? You're so right, that's such a common thing to hear.
Yeah, I think it's the most serious question you'll ever ask yourself, is should we have kids?
Because guaranteed it changes the rest of your life, it's going to be the most profound impact and stressor on your relationship.
So yeah, readiness for children, if you can, I mean, obviously, a lot of people don't choose, it just happens for them.
And they have to just make the best of it.
But if you are conscientiously thinking about it, should we?
Absolutely interrogate the health of your relationship and your own mental health before you go into that decision.
Think about your shared values, the kind of life you want to live, what balance will actually look like.
You know, it's not easy for anyone, you know.
There's no, well as far as I know, no perfect example of, yep, this is just gonna be a walk in the park.
It is hard and joyful and intense and chaotic and challenging the most difficult thing.
It's going to pressure test your relationship like nothing else.
So yeah, take that question seriously.
Maybe that's the time to go and get some counseling together.
In fact, a lot of people do that.
They show up to do either individual or couples therapy because they're either thinking of having a child or they're pregnant and going to, and they're like, right, I gotta sort my stuff.
I'm so impressed and grateful to those people for doing that work.
And it's a real privilege to work with them on it.
It's like such a selfless thing to do because you're really thinking about the kid, I guess.
Well, it finally gets us out of our kind of own headspace a little bit.
It's like, oh, I'm going to be actually responsible, not only responsible, I'm going to be imprinting on another child.
And I know what I went through.
Oh, gosh, I want them to have the best experience possible.
So yeah, it's a massive question.
And certainly one I would ask people to take very seriously before committing.
Yeah. I kind of feel like kids have been just a multiplier of everything.
Like all the good stuff's gotten multiplied better, but also the harder stuff has been exposed and the things that weren't quite right has been exposed because that's been multiplied too.
But in case I'd just scared anybody off, of course, you know, you can work with it in real time.
kind of yeah you face these challenges and if you have that healthy attitude of alright relationships are constantly evolving and changing I've got to listen to each other work on communication work on connection and work on other centeredness yeah you'll find your way back and I think the the other like the depth of our relationship it's such a richer deep for me it's if particular we didn't do counseling beforehand I was just it occurred to me then that we have only done a session, when we're really early in a relationship, we went and lived in Bangladesh for a year, we'd only been together
for about six months.
We did a session before that.
I was just like, I think we should do it just to like, I don't know, as a little preventative.
And I'm surprised that we didn't do that before kids.
We did it before Bangladesh but not babies.
It's strange. But we didn't do it and it's certainly, yeah, it's dialed everything up and it's exposed things that we've needed to work on.
But I think because I'm really We're really lucky that we both have the right intent for us and the relationship and the depth of our relationship and our love for each other has increased so much.
We're really lucky that we happen to be both seeing it the same way and both compatible in that way.
But yeah, it's been an incredible thing for our relationship.
But all props to people who choose not to have kids as well.
And I think that if that's the right choice for you listening, then you know you can have an amazing life.
You don't have to feel pressured to do it and if you're not sure about that commitment then you really shouldn't.
And so yeah, just to feel good about that choice if that's for you.
Yeah. And then I guess there's, I guess there'd be a lot of instances where there's a, within a couple, one really wants one and the other doesn't or isn't so keen.
And then just sort of either they're both or one of the most of the sort of hoping, they'll just sort of come to the party when the kid arrives.
And and that I guess that, that's enough.
I mean, I don't know, that could go a number of different ways, but I mean, Jam and I pretty lucky in the sense that we just there's not really something we talked about at great lengths when we first started seeing each other.
But we just happened to be on the pretty much exact same page when it comes to it.
But God, it would be very, very difficult if.
If you and your partner are on even slightly different pages, It's something you want to sort out pretty early in a committed relationship to know how you feel about the kid question, because of course it can lead to shocking heartbreak if you've been together with someone for years and then you realise you're incompatible when it comes to attitude towards having kids, and often that is the reason people do break up.
I think a really important topic to bring up here is also, when a relationship ends and a heartbreak, so many people out there would have experienced heartbreak before one of the worst pains going around.
It's awful. Is there a good way to break up?
I mean, I look back on past breakups I've been through.
And you, when one person wants to break up, the other person doesn't.
That's awful. I mean, there's obviously if to be like, yeah, I think we're done.
Not as complicated, but there's often so much not said, I feel like the break I was in, like, one person doesn't want to hurt the other one too much.
So it's like, there's uncertainty for one person who's not sure, is there a future for us all?
I know the point we're getting to is communication is so important, but it's very hard to do in such a, such a difficult thing to navigate.
Yeah. I think part of your ego also is like, if you're ending the relationship, you're like, feel so bad they're never gonna be okay ever again.
Like how they're gonna, they'll never recover from this.
Like, they will. They'll be fine.
It might take a bit of time, but You're not that good." This is a huge topic, isn't it?
And there's so many ways of just thinking as you're asking that, but I could answer it.
I think it is inevitable, isn't it, in life that we're going to experience heartbreak.
I was trying to imagine a life without it and it's actually impossible.
I think it's essential and it is going to happen in one form or another.
So there's a level of kind of universality about it and that can be comfort, if not cold comfort to just say, okay, if if we're going through this now, this is a very human thing, it's possibly the most painful thing for some people, something that can take a really long time to recover from.
No matter which side of it you're on, if you're the one breaking up the relationship or the one receiving the break up, it's quite rare, honestly, that a relationship does break up amicably.
We both just agree it can happen, but more often than not, it's a very, very painful experience.
So that being the case, and knowing that you're opening that can of worms and it's going to be profoundly impactful for both of you.
We have to try and keep in mind everything we've talked about, you know, so far today that we're trying really hard to have another centered view of the relationship, well, another centered view of the breakup as well, to try and really be mindful of how they feel, how they think, where they're at, where they're coming from.
know that's very unlikely they're going to just agree with you on what's being said.
But there are some simple principles we can remember.
Be as kind but as honest and clear as you can.
We often talk around the point when we're trying to soften a breakup thinking that we're helping.
I think that makes it worse.
We want to be as clear as we can.
Now that's not easy, that can be very challenging for all of us, you know, it's an emotionally charged topic.
Uh, but when you say clear, about what you feel and, and what's going on.
But does that, does that necessarily, does that, could that mean like being really clear about why you're breaking up?
I think the, it's very likely isn't it that most of the time, the partner's going to want to know all your reasons, but first and foremost, you want to convey what you're feeling, uh, and be clear about exactly what that means.
so that there's no ambiguity about what it is you're actually trying to say.
If you've come to that point of saying, I think this relationship needs to end, well, that's what they need to hear.
But also give them space and time to sit with that, knowing that you've probably done a lot of mental gymnastics to get to that point and done a lot of pre -work.
And we sometimes will expect our partners just going to be able to respond in that moment.
And truly, for a lot of people it's so traumatic that they're going to need some time.
And whatever happens in that moment, well, that's just the beginning, but just giving them space to then, you know, react and spend time with that feeling first and not pressure them, as we talked about, you know, in terms of the sun going down on your anger, that the same is true for this profound conversation.
It's very unlikely you're going to resolve it in one go.
It's also, that's really also good advice in term.
not just breaking up with someone, but bringing up a hard topic like that you've been stewing over for a while.
You've had the conversation 10 times in your head.
You're prepared and then you spring it on them and expect them to really empathize or understand with what you're saying immediately.
And that's probably unfair.
Yeah. It may, depending on the context, because I know I'm speaking in generalities here, and there's really no one size fits all.
So, I'm conscious of that, but it could be that the best move, even though you're feeling like we need to break up, we need to break up.
Maybe you haven't done the work yet.
Maybe the better conversation would be to say, I'm honestly feeling like I'm really struggling and I'm not happy and haven't been for a while and it might be a time to bring up the intimacy thing.
We haven't been intimate for so long.
I'm feeling lonely.
Label that emotion to them.
Maybe rather than go to the catastrophic, and therefore it's over, ask them how they feel and maybe there's a conversation there that can actually waken things up again.
So that, that's in my mind too.
But you might be listening to this and thinking actually, no, I know for sure there are reasons whether they are, you know, the relationship is unsafe or whether you just know, you've tried many, many times and this does need to break up.
That's the point at which I would say just clarity is so essential.
people and providing space for the other person to respond in their own way.
So I feel like we're often we're often told that you know relationships are kind of the thing.
It's like the thing to strive for and it and it does often feel like for everyone really that if you can't find your special person or your you know get into the relationship that is with the one that you can't have a fulfilling life and I just really do feel for people who aren't in relationships, not just on Valentine's Day, but so any event, going to family things, it feels like they can't be happy.
Yeah, I was single from 28 to 35, and I was like everywhere I went, it was like, have you met someone?
It was like the first question I even–I feel awkward going to weddings because there would be points when everyone dances together and everyone would look at me and feel sorry for me.
Like, I'm fine. But it was always a question, have you met someone, have you met someone?
No, it's a really, really good point to raise because obviously the focus of our topic today is relationships.
But there are people out there who don't feel a need or want relationship and are perfectly fine on their own.
And others, of course, who will be listening that are very lonely and would desire a relationship but for whatever reason, their circumstances are they haven't found it or can't find it or that's very difficult for them.
All I would say to those people is connection can happen in a range of different ways.
And if luck doesn't have it that you find that particular romantic relationship or meaningful relationship that you want for a variety of reasons, I would absolutely encourage you not to keep that to yourself, but to either work with someone potentially or look for a meaningful connection in other ways that you can.
Let me say, work with someone.
You mean a therapist?
Yeah, potentially a therapist.
But look, it's hard to say, isn't it?
Because you don't know what's around the corner for anybody.
like just because you haven't found that connection in the past doesn't mean that you won't.
But there is a realistic possibility for some people or a lot of people listening that they won't.
So to them I would say, you know, well, it might be something you deeply desire.
Just continue to check in with your your mental health and what enriches you in other ways.
Because we do need to talk about loneliness, it's a really important topic.
And you can find love outside of a romantic relationship.
friendship, for example.
Is it really a really powerful?
Yes, and of course for a lot of people who haven't found that kind of rich connection in their life they can actually become quite avoidant, and anxiety can cause us to actually retreat from forming healthy or rich connections.
Is that because like the longer you go without it, the more daunting it seems?
Definitely, yep. It can become something that we kind of build up and up and up and have greater expectations for.
But I think also it's just anxiety causes us to fear rejection and getting hurt.
And by doing so, we can actually deny ourselves the possibility of taking that risk of meeting new people and forming connections.
It actually does require pushing through anxiety.
So yeah, that's that's something I just encourage everybody who comes into my rooms with that we have to challenge our anxieties and look for meaningful connections.
And that can be friendship, doesn't have to be relationships.
But just to find that connection is very important for our mental health.
Well, James and Ryan, thank you so much for joining us today.
It's been great to have you in and get your expertise.
And of course, my clinic is now open.
What's your clinic called?
We do less for less.
So yeah, not as qualified but cheaper.
Okay. I would probably recommend going to engage one -on -one to see Jasmine Cull framework over there.
But, you know. Yeah.
You are very good. Yeah, but if they're full, give me a call.
Can't promise anything, definitely can't promise qualifications, but can promise my time and the bill.
Joes, thank you so much for joining us.
It's always, it's always so great chatting to you.
And I just feel like I just learned so much.
And the, the, the, your demeanor and the way are is just so um I mean you've always been since you're a little boy but um it's just so warm and loving and I just feel like people get to see you they're very very lucky so thank you for giving us your time today.
Thank you so much for having me it's been an absolute pleasure and a treat.
I hope there's some helpful ideas in there somewhere.
Oh um. There definitely are and good luck with your podcast.
Thank you so much! Called you're a good kid um with you and Nick.
Yes yeah uh look we're just so excited to be launching it and And guys, thank you so much for your encouragement and support around it too.
I don't think we'd actually be doing that podcast, if not for my experience on The Imperfect's last time.
So we have a lot to thank you for.
Well, knowing you and Nick very intimately, the world is a better place that you guys are making a podcast because you two are incredible people and it's really special that you're doing this.
Yeah. Well, we looked at you guys working together and admittedly felt a bit jealous, so now we get to do something.
So jealousy can be helpful.
Can be a really healthy emotion.
And I think that's a really good note to finish on.
I will say too, we would love to, I can get this on air, we would love to have you guys on as guests in the future as well, we've got Hugh in season one, so probably don't want too many imperfects all at once, but if you'd be willing.
I'm willing and able, love to.
We'd love to have you.
Thank you guys. It's a hard no, thanks.
That's great. Thanks a lot.
The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh van Carlinburg, Brian Shelton and Josh van Carlenberg.
Our executive producer is Bridget North -East, assistant producer of Bella North -East.
This episode is edited by George Martin.
The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment, or assessment.
The advice given in this episode is general nature but if you're struggling please see a healthcare professional or call lifeline on 13 11 14.
