My name's Hugh. I'm a co -host on the Imperfects.
I'm the son of Sri Lankan and English immigrants and I call Australia home.
We at the Imperfects acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded and we extend our respects to the elders past and present.
I've spent much of the last decade travelling around this country sharing stories.
In doing so, I acknowledge and pay homage to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples rich history of storytelling.
I also acknowledge that whenever I talk about or practice resilience, there is no greater example than the one set by the world's oldest living culture.
I certainly wasn't feeling broken open with love.
And I remember saying all the right things like, oh my God, like he's here.
I love him so much.
He's perfect. But you know, somewhere inside of me I was thinking, okay, maybe I just got to be patient and wait for this connection to come because I'm not feeling.
I'm not feeling what I'm meant to be feeling.
The Imperfects invites you into a very safe place.
A place where we share without judgement and drink heaps of vulnerability.
Grab yourself a cup.
This is the Vulnerability House.
You say something. Oh I get it.
What's that? Jackpost.
Jackpost is here. How lucky are we to have the Jackpost?
No, don't fight over who gets to do the intro guys.
Fine, you do it Hugh.
Jack's here. Jack, it's actually, I mean, there's one thing I wanted to get out of the way, which, I don't know if you've ever been told this Jack, but people think that our voice is the same.
Ah really? I've not heard that before.
Really? No. I've got told a few times that are you doing breakfast with Christian O 'Connell?
I was like, no, I wish I was.
But no, I'm not. That's Jack.
So should one of us sit out of this podcast?
Because we don't want it to be, last thing we want it to be is confusing for people who haven't got the video as well.
Well I think people are, like, people are talking now.
Who's talking now? We don't know?
We can do a real switcheroo.
No, I think it's just easy enough to, anytime one of us talks, go Jack speaking now and then I'll tell my bit and then if you want to come in, you say Ryan.
I mean we've got two brothers on the podcast.
You guys never get complaints about you sounding alike, do you?
No, I don't think so.
I think we sound pretty different.
We get complaints about our hair being so bloody voluminous and just insanely thick.
That's annoying. Yeah, that is annoying.
Jesus. Stop it. Jack, it's so, sometimes when you say things and it sounds like there's an edit.
You know when someone says things, they'd put an edit there.
There wasn't. I'd just absolutely change directions quickly.
There's no more of that.
Jack, no, Jack, it's so genuinely great to have you here.
No, thank you guys.
Thank you. From the Christian O 'Connell Breakfast Show, from Hamish and Andy Podcast and Hamish and Andy World, basically.
That's how you kind of started, was?
Hamish and Andy World.
Yeah. That's on tickets at the Hamish and Andy World front desk.
That's an interesting hypothetical.
What would be at Hamish and Andy World?
It'd just be like a roller coaster that keeps going up.
And never drops. Yeah, Jack, so from Hamish and Andy Podcast, we've worked together a little bit doing like the gap year shows, which is like 10 years ago.
They had to separate us eventually because our voices sounded too similar.
It wasn't. We just couldn't keep working like that.
We just connected. We became one.
But Jack, there's so much to talk to you about.
I mean, like, I feel like I've got lots of things I want to talk to you about.
And then this is a vulnerability house, so you will eventually pick a card.
I mean, one thing I wanted to ask you, I guess, for anyone who wants to get into radio or the media, they would look at you and go, you've had the dream run.
Yeah. Best case scenario of right place, right time.
And I feel that about myself as well.
To paint the picture of what that dream run was.
Maybe you can explain better than I can.
Yeah, so my first job in radio or my first ever full -time job was working for Fox FM.
And I started. In Melbourne, yeah.
At 20 years old. And I had this amazing run that's still going with Hamish and Andy 15 years later.
And Hamish and Andy reached a point where they weren't doing a daily radio show anymore.
At the end of 2017, we stopped doing that.
And then going into 2018, Christian O 'Connell announced that he was coming over from the UK.
Very successful presenter for many years on British radio.
And he bought his show here.
And I had one show finishing and his show was starting.
And I picked up the next year.
And the start of 2018 is the sidekick on the Christian O 'Connell show.
And that is a super condensed version of what happened.
But I think I'm sort of more interested in the very start.
Because I remember when you first started popping up on the radio show.
But before that, I don't really know the exact story, but you essentially got a job like panelling, like pressing the buttons at Fox FM.
Yeah, that's right.
My first job was after Hamish and Andy finished, Kyle and Jacqui O's Hour of Power would start.
So which Hamish and Andy show was this?
This was like a Monday nights, was it?
No, this would have been their second year of going full -time on Drive.
Oh, I don't drive. Four till 6pm.
And I think they're just, they did the first year maybe in Melbourne and then they got national.
Can't really remember.
But I was already a fan of the show.
So I remember it being on and it was established.
And I would start my shift as they left the building each day.
And Kyle and Jacqui O was a show that was coming from Sydney, so they just needed somebody in Melbourne to press a button that said Fox FM over the top of the songs.
And that was my job, but it meant that I interacted with them every day because as they were leaving their studio, I was coming in.
And then I just hung around as much as I could.
I said, could I like asked to come into meetings or if you need anybody to do anything, like I'm putting my hand up and hung around for years until I just integrated myself into the show.
But how did you, you didn't know his voice that was.
He's looking everywhere.
You're looking in places there aren't people.
How did you go, did you say to someone, did you say to like Andy, hey mate, do you mind if I come to your meetings?
And was that a weird thing to ask or?
Yeah. I guess you got like the ignorance of a kid just.
I was 20 years old.
I just finished doing a film course.
And the only radio I had done was community radio at a station in Melbourne called CNFM.
And actually that actually helped me a little bit because Ryan Hamish and Andy did a show on CNFM.
And I had met you guys, but you probably don't remember years before that when I was actually 15 years old.
So I was able to say like, oh, we sort of know each other.
We come from the same spot.
If there's anything you can do.
We're both alumni. So it was, it was just like hanging around until I had an opportunity.
And then eventually the guy who presses the buttons went on holiday.
And then that was the first time that I filled in for a guy called Giggling Ben.
That's right. And I just.
He's probably doing a podcast right now going, I shouldn't have gone in that fucking holiday.
Ben's got Ben. You would unknowingly hear Ben a lot.
He's one of Australia's most famous voiceovers.
So you would you would hear his voice, but maybe not know it's him.
But he's ripped. He went on holiday.
Yeah. He very much had good stuff still to do.
And yeah, I just kind of was like at the right spot at the right time, willing to put my hand up and say, I'll do anything and work for free.
And yeah, it's like, I feel like I want to say, and this is like a, this is going to be a thing cause this isn't actually leading to anywhere.
But at that time when you started being on the Hamish and Andy show, I was so jealous because I, because I sort of, I was sort of waiting for the call up in the background because you guys used to do.
Well, why didn't, why didn't you join this show at the start?
Because when I was, Let's get the boys on the phone and make this a really good episode.
Because I remember my first ever memory of you guys is the three of you at CNFAM, this tiny little community radio station.
And it was always the three of you together.
And then I went, I left there, had gone back to school.
And then all of a sudden like Hamish started popping up, speaks in specs in different places.
And then these radio shows started to get really popular.
And yeah, the reason, the reason it was, it was, it was kind of circumstantial because they were both, well, Hames was working at Fox, working like as a writer on the breakfast show, I think at the time for a bit.
And then Andy started working as a panel operator.
And so they were both in the building.
And then they became really good friends at uni.
And then they started doing comedy.
And they did a standup show together at the comedy festival.
And so then they sort of found this chemistry that just worked really well in that style of thing.
And because they were both like really wanted to do radio, it just sort of happened that way.
But then because we were still working together, we were still making stuff together.
I just sort of kept thinking, this is just my entitled brain from the time to thinking like, oh, surely soon they'll just like bring me into the fold and give me a role.
And I think that's probably why it had to be somebody like me who, because it wouldn't have made sense to bring you in and then not put you in the name of the show.
It makes, it makes complaints, but like my twenty five, six year old brain or whatever.
I'm like, I say like this Michael Sarat guy, Jamir's like, why him.
I'm here. Good question.
But it's like when you know Hames and Andy, you're, you're the perfect person to be on that show.
Like it's the dynamic just works.
And I think it's probably more gradual than people think like I was.
It wasn't just like one day I sat down and they had a meeting and like, oh, we're going to put you on the show now.
Yeah. Very like, you know, maybe once a week I would say something and then it slowly got more and more, even to the point where we weren't doing once a day radio anymore in 2017.
They were still every time I spoke saying, Jack, you can put your microphone on to contribute.
Whereas now the podcast, like, it's a three way.
I'm talking all the time.
Yeah. It's been a great evolution.
You're like the roller coaster, the upwards roller coaster never comes down.
You're a huge part of that.
Like you are the, I listened to the show, I listened to every show and you're just, your role becomes more, you're just like, it's pretty much the three of you now and you're amazing at it.
Thank you guys. They keep saying, like, they keep asking me, like, should we invite Ryan in yet?
And I keep saying, nah, it's not.
It's not the right time.
We'll know when it's right.
Let's give it 20 more years and then we'll double check.
Should we do a card?
No edit destroyed. All right.
Do I shuffle or do I just deal?
Just deal. What compliment or accolade did you receive that you felt you didn't deserve?
What do you feel ashamed of?
What were you embarrassed about as a teenager?
Well, that would be a long podcast.
Let's do it. I've got nothing to add.
The, I mean, what do you feel ashamed of is, is, oh, there's a lot I can say about that.
And thankfully, like I can say it with, with a bit of perspective now.
That I don't feel, well, I actually can say that I don't associate this story with shame anymore.
But there was a lot of shame involved in, in this.
And it starts with Bianca and I have a son, Gordon, who's two and a half years old.
And he's the best. He's such a beautiful, bright, smiley, funny, curious legend.
I absolutely love being his dad, but there was a period over, you know, a few, a few months or out to a year, a couple of years ago that I couldn't say that.
And when he was, after he was born, I had postnatal depression and while he was fine and healthy and perfect, I was not.
And I didn't know at the time it was postnatal depression.
And I was not ready in the slightest to have that.
Didn't plan for it.
No. Okay. First of all, just thank you for saying that.
I've never heard anyone say that.
I've definitely never heard a man say that.
And that is huge. So thank you for saying that.
And I always think about when we're doing this podcast, I try and think about who it's going to resonate with.
And I just think there's a big portion of people who are, that's an important thing for them to hear right now.
So amazing to share.
What is that? Well, I mean, so you joke like I wasn't ready for, I didn't plan for postnatal depression.
And of course I didn't, but it is something that you hear so often about new moms that it's very susceptible to it.
So as Bianca and I were getting ready for Gordy to come, we even had a discussion about like, you know, this is, these are some of the things you could figure out.
And I just feel afterwards.
And the irony that, that it was me who felt that.
And also the shame of feeling as the dad that you are the one that can't cope when you watch your partner go through so much during pregnancy and labor and, and, and being a new mum.
There's so many demands on, I found it, I felt a lot of shame around it, around having it, around saying that I had it or, you know, for a long time I didn't say I had it.
I didn't really, for a long time, I didn't know what it was.
I'd not had anything like that before.
It's something in time I've learned to separate the shame of it from though.
And I'm now comfortable saying, I mean, it's still very raw, but I'm comfortable saying that I had postnatal depression and that men can get it.
And, and I hope that anybody who is feeling it feels like they can say they have it and find somebody that they can communicate with.
What does it look like day to day?
I mean, I'm guessing it's when you go from zero kids to one kid.
For me, with our three kids, that's the biggest, that's the biggest change you will go through in your life.
And so it everything is thrown on its head.
Everything you know about your life, all of a sudden, everything changes.
And I didn't go down that path of postnatal depression, but I certainly had big feelings of like, shit, this is absolutely not about me anymore here.
And this is, it's a transition that you go through.
But what does it look like?
Like how long did it take?
Was it like an instant thing where suddenly you just didn't feel good, or does it, did it come over a couple of months, or?
It felt, it probably got its worst one to two to three months into him being born.
But the seed of it started the day that he was born.
And I had a lot of great people in my life who were parents already.
I knew a lot of great dads, Christian O 'Connell, Hamish Blake, friends of mine that I went to school with.
And the thing I've heard a lot before becoming a father was, this child will be born, and you hold them in your arms, and you'll feel love that you've never felt before in your life.
You'll be overwhelmed with what you feel.
And it won't even feel like the love for your partner.
It's something new, a connection that you can only get through child and parent.
Your heart will break open with love.
So that was. A lot of pressure.
The pressure, that was the expectation going in.
And when he was born, I remember seeing him and the first thing I, the first thing I thought was, wow, he looks so much like me.
He looks like me. He's like a tiny little baby version of me.
And something about that was deeply unsettling.
Wow. Wow. That you felt that immediately.
Something in me was saying like this, this isn't right.
There's something not right.
And he was fine. His health was fine.
But I certainly wasn't feeling broken open with love.
And I remember saying all the right things like, oh my God, like he's here.
We love. I love him so much.
He's perfect. But, you know, somewhere inside of me, I was thinking, okay, maybe I just got to be patient and wait for this connection to come because I'm not feeling.
I'm not feeling what I'm meant to be feeling.
That's so confronting.
The thing that I think I realized more and more during this podcast is that the thing that you think, and I'm completely guessing here, but in anything that I've ever brought up that feels completely unique is not.
So it just makes me think that that must be a feeling that happens a lot.
But I've never heard it spoken about before.
That must have been really confronting and confusing.
It was. I don't know how you guys felt when you were both - I can relate.
I can definitely relate to that.
When my child was born, both of them, I didn't think they looked like me at all.
The way you described your son looking like you, when you saw yourself in him, did you only see things you weren't proud of?
Or did you say the good things about yourself?
I couldn't put my finger on it.
I just - Yeah. I felt like I was looking in a miniature version of me and I didn't like that for him.
I don't know. Not like because I thought he'd get curly hair and a big nose, but just like something about the familiarity of it was confronting.
But no, I couldn't pinpoint.
Also, at this time, I'm trying to suppress all these feelings because I don't know what's going on.
It's an overwhelming time anyway.
So my plan was okay.
Just like chill with that.
Be patient and wait for the right feelings to come.
But days and weeks went by and it wasn't coming.
Sorry, we tried to interrupt.
Were you telling Bianca this at the time?
I think I started by saying like, probably dipping a toe in by saying things like, I don't feel like I have the same connection with him that you do.
But that's kind of hiding behind.
Then she probably thinks like, well, of course, like a mother has a different connection.
She's breastfeeding.
There's a built -in connection that they have in those early days of his life anyway.
So for me, just to say I don't feel like I'm getting the connection that you're getting probably wasn't the full extent.
Like my true fear was like by some genetic mishap or something's gone wrong.
Like I don't love my son.
And that's yeah, that's not something I said out loud for a very long time.
And was Bianca telling you how much she there?
Because it's a those first few weeks are pretty intense time for any couple.
And one of the things that I think for me it was incredibly bonding was being was the shared dialogue of like what we're going through was Bianca telling you about how much she's feeling this connection she's never felt before and love and stuff like that.
And you felt like you couldn't match that or was it not in a way that I felt like it was being rubbed in my face.
No, I think my fears were coming from somewhere like an expectation that I had that wasn't being met rather than witnessing something like they obviously had a connection at the start like yeah.
And then it was from from there is a pretty slippery slope of things getting worse for me.
And I felt like I was getting further away from where I was hoping to be then getting closer.
Was there ever a thought of like get me out of here?
Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah, I never got got to the point where I fantasize about suicide but I remember deeply wishing that I could.
There was some magic hypothetical where I could just not exist anymore.
And that no one would be hurt by it.
No one would know or mind it wouldn't leave any damage or scarring on the people that I love but that I just wasn't here on or never existed.
And I wanted that very badly.
And how long did you feel like that for?
Well, probably took three months I think until I got help.
It was it was what what I think what was getting so hard about it as I mean it's a tough time for anybody like being a new parent.
But I was finding it really, really like difficult beyond anything I've ever felt before.
And and when he was crying, it was not just like jarring like, oh, we got to help the baby feel better.
It was he was hearing him crying was like like poison to me.
And so it was getting really, really hard.
And like I wanted so badly to be doing all the right things.
I wanted to be a great father and I wanted to be a great husband.
And I also wanted to prove that I could go back to work.
So after a week, I went back to the radio show and it was just that was a bad idea.
I just didn't have enough to give in and everything felt wrong.
Did people at work have any idea what's going on or could they tell Christians are very intuitive, emotional, sensitive person?
Did he? He didn't. Yeah, he did.
And I'm really lucky to actually broadcast with Christian because it could have got it could have got messy.
I think if if it wasn't somebody who was so patient with what I was going through and had experienced.
I mean, you guys had him on the podcast and he talked about his experience with anxiety and panic attacks.
So he was he was really kind to me and had really did help me through those stages because I was coming into the radio show.
And like the day, the days and the nights for me were just polar opposites.
Like in the day when I was trying to get through like being a good dad, I was just like getting to a point where I was so sad.
And then overnight, I started to develop all this anxiety about going back onto the radio show and that I hadn't slept enough and that I wasn't.
I didn't have the capacity to get through it.
So I was going in the big up and downs and I wasn't even using the language like anxiety and depression, because I didn't know what was happening.
I just was feeling terrible, but for two different reasons each day.
So in the day, they say it's a Tuesday afternoon, I'm in Gordy's nursery because he's not even sleeping in the bassinet.
So he's not even in the nursery yet.
Ironically, it becomes my like the most private room in the house sitting on the floor, my head between my knees crying uncontrollably.
Like a tap has been turned on and it cannot be turned off.
And I can feel my mom's hand on my back and Bianca's hand on my back.
And I'm just saying, I don't know what's wrong with me.
And I'm so sad. I'm just saying, I don't know what's wrong with me.
And then by night time, I'm feeling a whole different wave of emotion, which is like I'm waking up at two o 'clock in the morning.
My leg is kicking. My fingers are fidgeting and I'm worried about not having enough rest and about performing on the radio show.
And so I'm going in the radio show, but I'm looking down at my hands during the show and I'm gripping the deck.
And I feel like I've just got electricity running through my hands.
That's how I kept describing to Christians.
Like I just feel like I got, I got to fidget all the time on or hold the desk to stop myself fidgeting.
And it was this cycle of doing that and then getting to nine o 'clock when we finish on air each morning and just feeling like, all right, the relief of like that cycle is done.
And it was unsustainable until the point where he, he noticed it.
And we had a lot of conversations in that studio post nine o 'clock in the morning, like when the show is done.
That I'm like, I'm able to tell him what I'm going through, which is really helpful to be able to explain and be honest about what I'm feeling.
And he's trying his best to make it easy for me to do the show.
He's saying, this is a safe space.
You don't need to do anything else than just come in, have a conversation and then go home and do what you need to do for the day.
So for a while, I'm persisting with the radio show because I do feel like it's a safe space.
And despite all these feelings, I'm still having moments of being able to be funny and laugh along with the show.
But, but it's depleting me day after day and there's a one Friday we get to nine o 'clock and I just don't have the energy to, to even hide it anymore.
And the tears start flowing in this radio studio when the mics have gone off.
And I'm just so thankful that, again, that Christian is the one that, that I'm sharing the studio with because he knows he's been down a path like this before.
And so he, I remember him putting his hands on my shoulders and saying to me, you, you got to take time off the show.
And I'm trying to say, no, it's all right.
Like I can do it. I don't want to be difficult.
I don't want them to have to do it without me.
You don't want giggling Ben to come and take your job.
Don't want Ben to leave his voiceover career to take a step up my breakfast show slot.
And so he says, you know, you, you, you can't come in on Monday and if you try to come in, I won't let you in the building.
And how did that feel?
Sobering in a way of like, okay, it's not mucking around anymore.
Like something's really, really wrong.
And it's about that time that I start to, because during all these feelings, I'm convincing myself that I don't have something like clinical depression or anxiety, but going to a therapist does not apply to me.
That I'm not, I'm not feeling well, but I'm not that person.
That's reserved for people who are really struggling.
When I'm looking back on it now, of course, it makes sense that I should be talking to somebody and getting help.
And throughout this all this Bianca has been amazing as well.
Holding space for me where, where it needs like, despite doing everything she needs to do as a new mum, communicating with me, understanding me, not making me feel guilty for what's going on.
But it's reached a point now where I have to get help.
And that's about the time where I called Ryan.
And because of this podcast, because Ryan had said on this podcast, his positive experience with speaking to a therapist, I felt safe calling you to have the conversation that we did about, I think I need to see a therapist.
And that changed my life.
It was, it was a really, I felt very well, actually, before I go into this, I just feel obliged to, I want to say that as your, and I, and I, and I, when I say this, I mean, I mean that in a non patronizing way at all.
I feel, I just feel so much like, like pride.
I'm, I'm so proud of you.
Thank you, in, in, in, in so many ways.
And I, I, I can hear you talking.
This is so incredibly vulnerable and brave for you to talk about this, but yeah, but when you called me to talk, I was like, Jack, I'm sure he's fine because I have only, I'd only up until that point, I'd only ever known you was like the cruisiest, nothing's ever a problem.
You know, you'd fall, fall into a radio show, come over to New York.
We do a show, meet this incredible woman.
It's like, you know, I'm like, the Homer during the Frank Grimes episode of The Simpsons.
This is where our relationship falls down because I don't have The Simpsons knowledge.
But anyway, so when you called, I was like, I was, I felt so privileged that you would call me.
I felt so, I didn't know what really, but when I saw you and when you came in and you started talking about what you're talking about, and you didn't go into this much detail, I think at that point.
The way I speak about it now is I was not saying that, I was not telling people that, you were closest I got was to Bianca trying to describe some of these feelings, but to somebody, even a close friend, I would not have said this.
Yeah, from memory you would just like, you were saying more things like, I don't know what's wrong with it.
I don't know what's wrong with me.
Why am I feeling like this?
And you were feeling this like, I think deep shame to talk about it and to say it.
And I will say as well that just for, and the reason I'll say this is because it is hard to reach out to a friend or to somebody to talk about it.
But how I responded to that was like, I felt so much closer to you after you did that, after you spoke to me.
And then now, having heard what you've just said, I love you so much.
I love you too, thank you.
I just, I'm so genuinely moved by that.
Incredible. I just so, I love you.
I love you. And it's a testament to what you guys do if, but I honestly remember having that thought of, Ryan's talked about this on the podcast that I love, I think you said something in the episode like, you don't need to be at your wit's end to go and see a therapist.
And that was probably the permission I needed to hear that it was okay for me to consider myself somebody worthy of seeking help.
And is that where things start to turn around for you when you started to?
I mean, obviously the Ryan conversation, but as far as your healing, because I mean, you sit here today, someone who's able to articulate it so beautifully, you've obviously done a lot of work.
Yeah. So for whatever reason, I can't remember, but your therapist wasn't able to see me or she was too full.
But the idea had been planted in my mind and I put it out and then it was Christian who recommended somebody he'd seen before.
And then I met Heidi, who is the world's best therapist.
And I've only seen one, but I cannot imagine how anybody can be better than her.
She was, she's such a legend and she changed my life.
And I see the whole thing now through a different lens.
I'm weirdly thankful for my experience because of the work I've done with Heidi.
So there was three really important people like Heidi, Christian O 'Connell, because I was able to have somebody who's walked a similar path, doing something very similar to what I do, show that there's a way out and then Bianca to be there with me on the whole journey as well.
With Bianca, I just, I can't remember when you met.
So we were doing, Hamish and Andy's Gap Year in New York, and we were all over there for like three months.
And, you know, Jack's this lovely guy, you're on the show and you're doing the radio show over there with them.
And then you meet this incredible woman.
This is like classic Jack.
And you're still together.
What, I mean, what does Bianca, tell me how you feel.
I mean, I've never heard you talk about, I mean, whenever I asked you, like, how do you feel about Bianca?
But I just, I would love to hear you say like, what she...
Yeah, she was incredible throughout it.
And there was, I can imagine, and I have empathy for relationships that break down after a child.
Even people who, and this is not something that I can don't obviously, but even people who leave their marriage or take off on their children.
I don't think that's a good thing, but I can, I understand it.
And I understand it because when you're in so much pain, you're looking for all these different exits and everything comes onto the table.
Should I leave my job?
Should I leave my marriage?
Should I leave the planet and not be human here anymore?
Had it not been for Bianca and how strong she was during that and how much she encouraged the communication of what I was feeling.
You know, I just, I can't see how I could have survived it with somebody who wasn't her.
Wow. I think that was pretty powerful what you said before about when you saw, when you started saying Heidi, the therapist, that you're now weirdly grateful for going through that whole experience because of how you've come out on the other side.
I mean, the fact that you were able to go through the mud.
Amazing. Before you, when you were talking about Heidi, you said that you...
Actually, I also want to acknowledge, I think that's so incredible what you just said about Bianca.
Really beautiful. And for people to know that you could go through something like that and it can be something that sounds like strengthened your relationship in the end because of your appreciation.
And what she did is amazing.
You said that Heidi had helped you see what you were going through through a different lens.
Obviously, there's probably some stuff that is very personal to you and not something you'd want to bring up here.
But I'm curious to know what that new lens is.
Yeah, so she did, she did do a lot of work with me and it took over a year to go through it.
I probably had the misconception that you go and see a therapist and it's like, there you go.
Like, oh yeah, this is the problem.
Start doing this and you should be fine.
And then you'll just open up the back of your head just for adjustments.
Alright, you should be good to go.
Maybe I'll come back for like a check out, but just to make sure that I'm all good now.
I will say, quickly, Jam, my partner Jam, a couple of years ago, Jam gets depression and anxiety and she got recommended sort of a natural medicine like guy who kind of makes tinctures.
Like, you know, so he's got like all these like herbs and stuff on his back wall, like a really old school guy.
And he's mixing together like asks a bunch of questions and mixes together a little tincture in a bottle and gives her the bottle.
And I'll just let everyone know Jam's had anxiety for a long, long time and depression in and out.
But he said, he goes, all right, just if you just start taking a bit of that, you should be good in about three to five days.
That is great. That's what I mean to admit.
You should be doing a lot better.
Yeah, no, that was not my experience at all.
It's very, very slow and very not a trajectory the whole way.
It's not like I met Heidi and then it was just getting better week on week.
It got hard. And there was a lot of days, it was Wednesdays that I would go and see Heidi.
And a lot of the time I just, that was the last thing I wanted to do is go in there and sit in there.
I knew that I would end up crying and it is exhausting work.
Like, you come home and be exhausted.
Like I'd run a marathon.
Like it felt hard. But what, yeah, without going into like all the things I learned about my own childhood and like why I might have had these reactions to Gordy.
A couple of things that she made me aware of were, this has nothing to do with him.
He is just a little baby.
He's not against me.
He's not got any, he's done nothing wrong.
And she kept calling him a little Yoda.
He's this little Yoda who's here, he's just here to teach you things about yourself.
And that was so true.
This is about me. This is about things that I am holding on to.
This is about things that I've never looked into myself and reconciled before.
So it wasn't like one day to the next I drank the tincture and then all of a sudden I loved my son again.
It was, it was just a slow, like unpackaging of it all.
And then I would, I would feel like really good and I would have little bursts of moment where I feel like, I can't feel love for my son.
That must've been pretty when that first happened.
Amazing. Because like when like going back to this card again, like what are you ashamed of?
There was nothing I felt more ashamed of than the question of why don't I love my son?
Holding him and thinking why don't I, why don't I love him?
That came with a lot of shame.
A lot of shame. Was there an element of not a therapist, but just listening to this story that you're so generously sharing?
Because I'm picturing you looking at Gordy when he's born thinking I don't, he looks so much like me.
You see yourself and you don't feel love for him.
It was an element of you didn't love yourself and it was about finding love for yourself to find love for Gordy.
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Like I grew up feeling not normal and there was a lot of that tied up in there that I didn't know that I was holding on to.
And I think a part of seeing him look like a baby version of me spooked me.
But having done all this work now with Heidi is like setting Gordy and I up for a much better future together and future for him than had I suppressed those feelings and put them somewhere, you know, like lock them up somewhere and never dealt with that.
Do you ever feel worried about what Gordy might think if he were to hear this one day?
I had that conversation with Bianca before accepting the invite to come on the show.
It's like, what will Gordy think if he one day hears this?
Like how will he feel hearing me say some of these things?
And she said, well, don't you want him to know this story?
Don't you want to show him that we're not all perfect and that this is something that challenge you?
And that these are the steps you took to get from one side to the other and that look at how we were as a family during that and look at how we are as a family now.
And I agree with her that these are not easy conversations to have, but these are things I want him to know just because I want him to know that he's safe always to share his feelings and that nothing that he feels is going to be a burden on me hearing it.
So if going through this means that I've learnt how to sit in uncomfortable feelings and be with them, then it was worth it so that I can have that experience with him as he grows up.
And you just so beautifully articulated hat.
What do you love about Gordy?
Like like, like now I'd love to hear you talk about him.
He's the best right now.
He's dressed as a cow at daycare because it's it's a quick week.
I didn't know they started book week and daycare, but I didn't.
And I dropped my kids off.
I'm dressed fits. And I was the shame.
He is just he's a legend.
He's so much fun and like they that's the thing as well.
They get more fun as they grow up.
So it's you engage with them on a different level as they start to develop language and they start to like he's getting funny and like doing funny things and every day is you.
I mean, you guys would know his parents like every day they're doing something different that you can't believe this speed in which they grow and which they learn new things and what something they couldn't do last week.
Now all of a sudden, they can do something they couldn't say or articulate last week.
Now all of a sudden they're saying and doing stuff.
He's the best. I can't wait to go and pick him up at Dress as a Cow.
One of my favorite things, honestly, guilty pleasure is going to daycare and watching him over the fence before he realizes I've come to pick him up.
Honestly, like watch him interact before he knows you're there to pick him up.
I'm actually I should probably check after but I spoke to Chanel Rick Davies wife Rick Davies who we've had on the show.
They live opposite their childcare and she said on many occasions she's caught him like looking through the bushes in their front just like staring at the kid for like an hour.
And that's one thing that stops you from lingering too long.
It's like why is a man in running gear looking over the fence of the car?
You want to let people know it's like I'm one of the fathers.
It's allowed to look.
Yeah, you're one of the fathers.
I'm only looking at my child.
Just a telescope. I had that exact experience on, it was last night I picked LC up from Kinda and I was like, well look over the fence and see what she's up to.
It was all by herself and she was hanging over a plank of wood.
And I was like, okay, is she playing with anyone?
And I thought is she maybe she's sad.
She's by herself and she had a big smile on her face and I was like, how long is this game of hanging over a plank of wood going to last for three minutes?
I watched her for just hanging over a plank of wood and I was like, I think I need to go and stop this.
What is going on? But I went to bed smiling just thinking about her hanging over a plank of wood.
So it is a, yeah, that's great.
How does it feel to talk about your love for Gordy now?
What does that feel like?
I'm so thankful to be able to do it.
It was definitely a part of me that worried during that time that maybe it would never come.
I told myself stories like Gordy was conceived through IVF.
So we were very, very excited when we got pregnant.
But after I couldn't feel this connection with him, I started to believe that, oh, maybe this is because we forced him into the world and not it wasn't the universe's plan to have him here.
So because of that, I don't get to experience what a normal father would experience for their child.
Or for a genetic bad lottery, I just didn't get that gene or something that like I was meant to get.
Maybe it's a one in 10 million chance, but I was just the unlucky one who didn't get it.
So to be able to sit here now and say how much I love him and I tell him all the time how much I love him.
Yeah, I wish I could show this to me now like two years ago, because this is what I desperately wanted.
And for anyone listening right now who is going through this exact feeling, male or female, this is it's like this pathway is there for you.
And this is not what you're going through right now is not forever.
Yeah, right now. And it's so fucking hard right now, but it is not forever.
And Jack sits here as proof that this is not forever.
And you will feel love.
That's in the future.
In your future, your child.
Yep. You will. And yeah, and it's hard, but you got you got to communicate.
You got to tell the people around you.
You got to seek help if you need to seek help.
But it starts with verbalizing it.
Definitely. And it's a long journey, but it's worth putting the effort in.
Definitely. Definitely.
I think the trigger point, like the word, the shame, like what you've talked about today just highlights me how dangerous it is.
Like you overcome by such shame that stops you seeking help and going through this for so long.
Like thinking of some of the reasons you're like inventing in your head for like why this must be happening when you say them now, the way you were saying them, they just sound ludicrous and so crazy.
But yeah, if you've got an active imagination, you can convince yourself of that.
Yeah. And the fact that your brain will come up with all these things rather than just saying something's wrong and I need some help.
It just shows how dangerous shame is.
And that would be my other message to people is like, if you're not feeling right, you are worthy of searching for help because how long it took and how deep I was in it when I was still convincing myself that I didn't fit the category of needing help is, I just marvel at it now to see like what were you
telling yourself? Just to show how not uncommon this is or how frequent this is, I feel like I can't not share my version of this.
It's a different version, but I do feel like there'll be people out there who will definitely relate to this.
So, Elsie, who is our second child, she's now four and a half.
We are incredibly close now and by virtue of the fact that Benji just insists that Penny puts into bed every night, it's my job to put Elsie down.
Like literally every single night, pretty much since she was about six months old, I've put Elsie down, lie in bed with her till she falls asleep and she'll always come in to see me first in the morning.
So, we're incredibly close.
But my version of this is that when she was born, she represented to me extremely hard work because I'd forgotten all the sleep deprivation that happens with a new baby and I'd forgotten all the sacrifices that you make as a human being when you have a new baby in your life.
And it all just came rushing back to me straight after she was born.
She was a terrible sleeper and she would be up every hour on the hour for the first six months of her life.
And so, my version is different because if you said to me, do you feel love for this person, I would say yes, but I didn't have the connection.
There was no connect.
I didn't feel a connection there.
I just didn't have that.
And I don't know what it was, but I just didn't quite have that connection.
It probably took me about six months to find that connection with her.
So, my version is different to yours but I think a lot of people will also know that feeling as well.
Yeah. Tell me if this feels like the best way I could describe it is looking after Gordie during that stage before I felt that connection was like a hypothetical where you had to look after somebody else's kid.
So, of course you want the baby to live and survive and get everything it needs.
But beyond that, there was no special connection, no father -son bond that you wouldn't otherwise get from a random child.
And yes, and on top of that I'd say also when things don't go well, so when they're screaming and crying or when they throw their food away, I just couldn't cope.
Because there's that disconnection you can't cope with when you make food for them, they throw it on the floor.
You can't cope. This is too much.
Yeah, it only occurred to me when you were talking before Jack about that feeling of what the crying was like early on.
And I'd never put two and two together but I realised that in the first...
When I was trying to explain to people what it was like when we first had Charlie, that it's the toughest thing I've ever done but the highs are something I've never felt before.
And I used to describe that that kind of buffers it so you get this huge high because of this connection that helped me get through those low points.
If I wasn't getting that and like low points being like, we only slept for an hour last night so I can get through the day or...
When you zoom out, it balances out a bit.
Yeah, and I'm also getting the actual, I think there's probably something chemical going on there throughout the day where I'm getting this big high because of that connection that I felt from the start which made that period so much easier because it was kind of buffering to all the hard stuff.
If I didn't have that stuff, the tough stuff below the line would have been so fucking hard or to the point of impossible and I just think it makes absolute like...
I don't know if this is at all scientific what I'm describing but it just seems like going down a path that leads to postnatal depression seems like the most logical thing if you don't have that.
If I didn't have that buffering, yeah.
I think it's also worthwhile acknowledging something that I don't know anything about but I assume this must be something that occurs occasionally to people when they're not the biological parent but they find themselves in the care or they find themselves as the parent but not biological.
For anyone out there who's in that position, listen to that right now, who's feeling whatever you're feeling, just an acknowledgement of you and you as a parent.
I think this question is relevant but are you guys thinking of having another child and if so or if not, has this experience weighed into it?
Is there a fear there?
Yeah, great question.
I think because Gordy came through IVF and it might be my dear love.
Bianca's turned up at the door and has just tried to walk in.
Well, what a great time for Bianca to turn up really.
Yeah, are we having another child?
She's just trying to see if she can come in or not.
Really amazing timing.
Phenomenal timing. Hey Bianca, we're recording right now.
You've turned up at the most perfect moment.
Yes, because Gordy came through IVF, there's difficulties anyway with going back for a second child and we had one failed attempt at IVF and you may have spoken about it on the podcast but anybody who knows anyone who's been through it, he's an incredibly emotionally taxing and financially taxing exercise.
We had one failed attempt and then took a year off and then when we went back to do it again, they gave us about a 10 % chance of conceiving.
So when we got Gordy, it really felt like those are good odds.
You know, we got them on the second bounce if it's one in 10.
So there is a hesitation from me already to go back into that again and I don't know if I was honest with myself how much of that is tied into like the experience of the first year that I had with Gordy, there could probably be a little bit of hesitation from me because of that as well.
I would love him to have another younger brother or sister but I would also be content if Gordy was our only child.
When you first went and saw Heidi, your therapist, because you know the build up to going to see her and they're kind of like you convincing yourself for a while that you shouldn't see a therapist and you weren't worthy of therapy.
How did you respond to what she was saying to you?
I know it was probably a slow burn, but did you accept what she said?
Did you like believe that she knew what she was doing?
I honestly can't remember.
There's such a blur that time and I was like, that was the bottom.
In the first session I had with Heidi, I said to her, I wish that I wasn't here anymore.
I was at a point already where I was desperate.
This is personal and don't have to reveal, but how did she respond when you said that?
Oh, gross. She was so natural they didn't freak her out.
She's just like, yeah, that sucks and I'm sorry to hear it.
And I remembered nodding along to that and like, okay, we're in it now.
Might as well go all in on this.
Rather than drip feed her bits and pieces, might as well just say, see what happens in this experiment.
Say everything. Say things that you think you can't say.
Yeah, that's a really helpful thing.
Because I often think with my therapist, I'm like, give her as much data as possible.
Give her all the information she needs.
Don't give her the stuff that you would like her to think about you or the stuff that is easiest.
Give her everything so she can work with what's in front of you.
But I came to her point, I honestly was desperate for something to change and I really wanted it to work.
I don't know if you went into therapy under somebody else's assumption that it would be good for you, that you would get out of it, what you would get out of it if you're ready to go.
And to be honest with yourself and say what is happening.
And then she guided me through exploring those feelings and I was pulling out stuff that I didn't even know I was feeling.
It's amazing therapy like when you first do it because it's very, very rare that if you've never done therapy before, it's very rare that you've spoken to someone and you don't feel bad for just continually talking about yourself.
Yep. It's like I've been playing around with chat JPT and stuff and I'll ask it a few things and I feel myself thinking, I can't ask it another thing.
I've already asked two questions and how is your day?
It's all about me. This is me want want want.
But I feel like it's that with therapists and it's an incredible thing and that's what you're there for.
That you you can just talk and they're just this non -judgmental, well good therapist that is non -judgmental almost like a sounding board and there's there's you don't have to feel bad about talking about yourself.
It's brilliant. Yep.
And I was still like, I haven't seen her for a couple of months now.
I'm feeling a lot better, but I still consider her, honestly, someone that I love because of the impact I had on my life.
So even though I don't feel like I need therapy in the same urgency that I did two years ago, I still hope that that's a conversation that I continue with her for years to come.
There's a feeling that happens in those interviews with certain guests where, you know that I would probably use this one.
I disagree, but yeah.
There's a feeling that happens throughout interviews where there are moments where you just feel it's an intense, it's impossible to almost explain, but I'll try, but it's like the air just becomes really intense and you focus so hard on the guest.
And it's like the most extraordinary moment they offer up and they go moments like that come and go throughout different interviews.
Sometimes that don't happen.
Sometimes we get two or three moments.
I've just felt this for this whole hour sitting here with you.
I haven't, I felt I've never felt that before and you are such a, this is such an important conversation.
You have, I feel like you've saved lives today.
You've definitely changed lives.
And, and the love that I know that we all, everyone in this room feels to you right now is just immense and you are an incredible person.
And I feel so honored to have sat here and to listen to you tell your story.
It really is. I feel very lucky.
Thank you guys. And what you do is so, so important for the world.
This podcast is just so important.
And I've got friends, like friends of mine from high school, I'm thinking of two guys who are roof plumbers, right?
Some of my best mates.
And I just never thought that they would engage with something like this.
And they always reference the podcast and it's like, it's reach.
It's reaching people.
And so I thank you for that.
Oh, it's people like you sharing what you shared.
That means it reaches people.
Thank you. Thanks, Brian.
Thank you, Jack. Thank you guys.
Thanks for having me.
The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh van Carlenberg, Ryan Shelton and Josh van Carlenberg.
Our executive producer is Bridget North -East, assistant producer of Bella North -East.
This episode is edited by George Martin, sound design and score by Nick van Carlenberg.
The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
The advice given in this episode is general in nature.
But if you're struggling, please see a health care professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
