Hey, Good Life Project listeners, I am dropping into your feed with something a little bit different and really special today.
It's a new show from our friends at Hire Ground hosted by Michelle Obama called IMO.
So you know on Good Life Project we have insightful conversations, give fresh perspectives, uplift you, and leave you feeling more fulfilled.
Well, similarly on IMO, Michelle and her big brother, Craig Robinson, tackle real questions from real folks just like you offering practical advice, personal storytelling, and plenty of laughs.
Each week, they're joined by a guest, bringing candid perspectives to the everyday questions shaping our lives, relationships, and the world around us.
Topics range from dating and relationships, to family and faith.
Michelle and Craig share stories about being there for each other throughout their lives, from first crushes, to fraught college years, to landing at the White House, to losing their mom.
For six decades, they have been each other's most trusted counsel, and now they want to be that counsel for you.
In this episode, they're joined by actress Issa Rae for a conversation about navigating the challenges of mismatched expectations in adult friendships.
Okay, here comes the preview.
You can find more episodes of IMO wherever you get podcasts.
Like, the crisis would require an emergency session.
Like, somebody's on a train, flying.
You know, there's movement.
And you're not gonna deal with a crisis.
Yeah, I was like, we're coming, we're coming.
It's a crisis. My friend's dog died.
We were all there at the house, bringing her favorite snack.
This took off work.
That is a script. That is something that she could write on television.
She's playing and doing a text, she not going to be good.
She doesn't need this right now.
You know what's so horrible about that?
His guys will be like, damn.
Yeah! That's not a crisis.
Not a car. Honestly not a crisis.
Or, at the dog emojis?
Or juice. I didn't know you had a dog.
What? Where'd you get a dog?
Okay, weird. Weird man.
Hey. Well, hi again, you.
It's you again. Oh, I like your...Is that pink?
My wife called it coral, but it could be pink.
Yeah, it is coral, and it's a little pleated.
This is breaking out of the, you know, basketball thing.
Watch out now. And that little collar.
Okay, I see you. Craig Robinson.
I am thrilled that you like my clothes.
Yeah, nice. See, you guys, this hard being this one's brother.
I don't have enough closet space.
You don't even need much closet space.
But you're stepping out.
You're stepping out.
Thank you. What's new and exciting.
Well, I got to tell you, while we're out here in LA, Rivian hooked me up with a vehicle to tool around in since you won't be able to drive on since you don't drive.
No, I'm starting to drive.
Really? Yeah, I can drive.
How's that? How's the Secret Service letting you drive?
Well, it's a secret.
You could take me for a spin.
They'll let me take you for a spin.
Don't you remember when I came to visit you in Milwaukee and the boys wanted me to pick them up from school and we did.
You tooled up in a motorcade to this school?
In a motorcade in the pickup line.
They were just like, niche!
I was like, yeah, yeah.
Four cars deep in the pickup line.
Four SUVs deep. That was so much fun.
I'm sure their friends are like, what the heck.
Yo. Then you roll down the window and it's you, They're like, mmmmm.
Like, he's like, get in.
And don't touch the guns.
I do remember that.
Oh my goodness. But, um, so we're talking about friendship today.
Yeah. And, and people know by now that you and I are like have been best friends since you were born.
Yep. Cause it couldn't happen before then, I think.
No, it could not happen before then.
And, but, my first question to you is how many of your friends now were your friends when you were little?
Like the little, little, I don't keep up, don't get a chance to keep up with the folks from little, little time, although as folks know, mom recently passed and a lot of people came to the funeral.
They did, right. And two of my girl girls from grammar school, the gores, dam and Nikki, and they had a little sister, Gina, but they came to the funeral.
And it was funny. We got a quick second to talk, but it was almost like I hadn't missed a minute with them.
But, so we vowed to keep in touch, but outside of childhood, I can say that I have at least, almost at least one good friend or more from every aspect of my life.
So what I found is my best friend, roommate who you know, Angela, from Princeton.
She was my roommate.
She's my girl. I always talk to her from law school.
My friend Verna just went to her house for lunch just the other day.
She's in DC. and then my mom friends, because as I got married, but then even before then, that was Pam, she was more my professional friend when we were grownups and had jobs at law firms, and I could go on and on like that.
And the other thing I made a point of, because one of the things that you said when Barack won and we got into the White House, one of the things you were like, no new friends, this is it and I was like, ahh, you know.
I did say that. Yeah.
You were kind of joking, but it was important for me the normalcy of my life to be able to, or to keep my life normal even in those unusual circumstances to continue to expand my friendships.
So that's a long answer to say.
Yeah, I do. I keep making friends and I keep up with my friends.
And this today's show is talking about differences with those friends and falling out of friendship with good friends.
And guys are a little different.
Their friendships are more transactional, right?
What do you mean by that?
Well, what I mean is after sort of grammar school and high school where you're sort of friends with people because you're developing your group and your personality and your character.
Most of the time after that you make friends out of the necessity of wanting to get something done, whether it's a business idea, a business venture, a sporting event, you've got four tickets to a game and your significant other doesn't wanna go so you, all right, I'm gonna take three friends.
What did you just make a friend and it's like, okay, let's be friends, come to the game.
Guys do that. That's why y 'all are broken.
We are not broken, but we don't go as deep.
So if something happens, we're not as hurt.
Is that, are you, is that what y 'all scared?
Is that what goes over all the time?
Nobody said it was scared.
It's just a... My feelings hurt so I don't, I can't know you.
it's just a function of how we socialize with each other.
And like you, I have all of my friends I could not talk to in a year or I could talk to every week and the relationship is mostly the same.
That's because y 'all don't talk about nothing.
Well, we don't, you're right about that.
It's hard to go deep.
You know we go deep is when it's too late.
Death bed. It's like whoo, bubba.
I wish I had asked him about his family.
We're getting a divorce.
Oh yeah. Then there's some tragedy.
It's like, why do you say anything?
I didn't say anything because I didn't want to burden you and I was going to thumb through it myself.
But today's show, we're going to talk about you know, sort of falling out of friendship with close friends and we do have company and I can't tell you how excited I am for this company because as I told her in the green room, I didn't watch romcom -ish type shows and my wife said, you gotta watch this in Secure.
And I'm like, I'm not watching it.
And she said, you gotta watch it, it's good.
And I said, I'm not watching it.
And she said, you're gonna like it.
I said, I'm not gonna like it.
She made me watch the first two episodes back -to -back because she was like on episode four.
I watched the first one and I was like, all right, it's not bad.
I watched the second one.
And then I watched the third and the fourth because I was only gonna watch the first two.
And I just fell in love with this actress who then I had to do a little research and I found out she was a writer, and she was now getting into the restaurant business and just an entrepreneur and a community folk, you know?
Kinda like y 'all. Just in the community doing stuff for black folks.
And giving it back.
Giving it back, and just so supremely talented.
Let's bring on Issa Rae.
Issa! Watch him. Watch him!
See, I'm just meeting her for the first time.
So happy to have you here.
She'll be OK. Welcome to the table.
Thank you so much. I was just nodding and back there, I had so many times I wanted to jump in.
Well, what's been going on?
How are you? Oh, so much. I'm doing really well.
I'm out here still just writing.
you mentioned a restaurant that is called Summerville that's in my neighborhood that I'm really excited about.
What made you say, all right, I want to open up a restaurant.
Is that a dream or is it just circumstantial?
You know it's twofold.
I've always said if I wasn't a writer, I'd be a bartender or a waitress.
Okay. Well, there you go.
I like the food environment.
I love serving, I love hosting, And there is a degree of that.
And I love eating out.
And so, since I was young, I've even played, like doing play dates with my brother, my little brother, our play dates would be...
Restaurant. Restaurant, yes.
And I would be the bossy restaurant owner.
Sounds familiar. And then, also, I remember having my best friend and I have the same birthday.
And it was like the 30 -something birthday.
You're a capricorn, too.
I'm a capricorn. Like me 17th?
You already know 12th over here.
That's why we bossy.
Yeah, I know. I don't like to admit it.
I want to give my mother that satisfaction.
But we were just out.
We always celebrated our birthday together.
We went to dinner. And we were just like, uh, let's go.
Like, we were trying to go out.
And in your 30s, you're not trying to go to a club.
You're trying to go to a place to lounge and have a good time.
It was so hard. To find.
So many different spots.
And it just wasn't the right vibe.
It was just it infuriated me.
I was like, we are both from LA.
We cannot find a spot with us that's just a good time that'll cater to us.
And that was like my villain origin story where I was like, I wanna, I want that in my neighborhood.
Man, doing it with your little baby boss self.
Were you gonna say something?
I wanted to find out as we talk about friendships and we will eventually read a letter from one of our listeners who's seeking advice around friendships, friendships, but something people ask me, which applies to you, is that as you've become Issa Rae, how has that affected friendships for you or has it?
Have you become more cautious?
Have people come in and out of your life?
Have you thought about it differently or felt like you needed to think about friendships differently given your ascent and who you become?
I have been very lucky that I've had friends since high school because I'm from LA, and there is a sense of this feeling like my job.
I didn't move here to become myself.
I was already here, and I grew up around this environment, and a lot of the people that I went to school with are my friends still, and even my name, My name is Joisa Joke.
That's how I grew up.
And so even the Issa Rae of it is like, those are people who don't really know me.
And the people who are my friends, you know, call me by name or my nickname.
And so there's such a distinct separation.
But I've definitely had friendship breakups as a result, some as a result of working together as we both ascended.
Some as a result of not being able to handle So the change in position, the time, like I have a friend who I thought I was going to be friends with forever.
But she went through two major milestones, kind of traumatic milestones, really young.
She got married when we were in college and divorced when none of my other friends had experienced those things.
And I didn't, as a friend, know how to handle that or have the capacity to handle that.
and that was actually strike two, I think, on my part for her.
Strike one was her father died when she was in college, and she was the first friend whose parent had passed away, and I felt like I wasn't equipped to truly be there for her in the way that she needed me to.
And that was around the time when I started, like, rising in my own career, and I felt like she never took my career seriously or my aspirations seriously.
So we fell apart and drifted apart.
We tried to come together, but we were just in different places and that was one of my most painful friendship breakups because it wasn't acknowledged in that way.
But I haven't had any like, you're famous I'm using you type of things.
Well that's a perfect segue for our listener letter.
It's somebody who fell out of favor with a friend, so Natalie, are you ready to read us the letter?
Let's do it. All right.
Hi, Michelle and Craig.
My name is Eva, and I'm 32 years old.
In my early 20s, I met my friend Kristen through a male friend of mine who she briefly dated.
That relationship did not last, but Kristen and I stayed friends.
If I'm being honest though, my friendship with Kristen felt a little unbalanced from the start.
I really like friendships to feel effortless.
Like both sides naturally want to spend time together, check in and show up for each other.
But I noticed right away that Kristen wanted to make plans pretty often.
I'm a people -pleaser and I had a hard time saying no to her invites when my schedule was already a little too busy with other friend hangs or dates.
And when it came to my dating in particular, she had pretty strong opinions about what I was doing wrong.
I am not perfect by any stretch, but I do have strong instincts and I like to trust my gut rather than take advice like this from friends.
Still, over time, I really came to respect Kristin.
She's incredibly thoughtful and it's a pretty special thing to have someone so much in your corner.
We started to go on day trips together and I genuinely appreciated our quality time together over the years.
Recently though, Kristen lost a close family member and when I sent a text checking in, I got an unexpected text back saying she wanted to stop communicating with me.
She said people who were not nearly as close with her had been a lot more supportive.
She felt the imbalance in our friendship and wanted it to be over.
Honestly, I did not see this coming.
I knew our friendship was complicated but I felt like I was being myself and it was not enough.
Ideally, I wanted to continue our friendship as it was even if it wasn't innately easy or perfect.
But now I'm worried I'm a bad friend.
Adult friends are not family and they're not romantic partners, but they are people we love.
And I did not enjoy hurting her especially when I felt I was just being myself, how do you maintain healthy friendships if there is an imbalance in expectations?
Is it possible? What do adult friends owe each other?
Thanks for your thoughts, Eva.
That took so many turns.
You hit it right in the front.
So can I just say before we dig into this, there would never be a guy that wrote a question like that.
We just don't, it's not our thing.
Yeah. I just, I can speak for me, but female friendships are complicated because we go there.
We are, you know, we, and we spend so much time playing out the sociology, I think women, and I don't want to generalize, but women or so we are sociologists.
I just find the interpersonal interactions of everyone, especially my friends, are fascinating to me.
So when I'm with my friends, and this was true at all levels, we're never just going to throw a ball.
We're not just trying to finish a game.
It's like, I want to know why, how, tell me more.
Well, let's talk about that a little bit more.
And in the process of that, you know each other inside and out, which is why some of these hurts, why it hurts so much. Because not every woman does this, but I know my friendships, all of them are deep and meaningful, and they don't always last, but because of that, you don't end it without the hurt.
It is complicated. There's a piece of you that you're giving.
So many of the women in my life know things that I just would never share with you.
As a closed -off person, if I've opened up to you, that already means you mean a lot to me.
Then I see a future with you.
Automatically, if I deem you as a friend, then that's like for life.
So the idea that that gets cut off for any reason, and especially if I'm culpable or if I felt betrayed by you, that is devastating.
And even in hearing this letter, this woman felt like she was even hesitant to become this person's friend to begin with.
And then ultimately, was just like, oh, okay, I see the value in my life.
But there were tinges of selfishness there, just even in terms of how she saw the friendship, but it still felt like she was...
Any version of this I don't know, I don't think that she was willing to be a full friend to this woman.
It is the way that I read it.
And that's okay, but you just have to honest about that.
You can't have it both ways.
The biggest hurts that I've had in friendships, and hurts is strong, when I didn't feel like there was emotional reciprocity, right?
because the imbalance that she talks about, that's always present.
Someone in every relationship is given a little more, given the less, some people have more or less at a given time.
I mean, people are complicated and flawed and all of us are.
That has never been a problem for me, like the complicated nature of my friends, right?
When I felt most, almost portrayed is when I felt like, we're all at the table, giving, sharing.
And you weren't. You were at the table.
But it's sort of like, it wouldn't be probably one of the reasons when he went through his divorce, his first marriage, I didn't know what he was going through.
they're probably felt like a little emotional, I felt emotionally robbed, because it was like you weren't telling me.
You weren't telling me, and maybe it's because you didn't trust me, you didn't trust yourself.
See, she's still hot about it, can you tell?
But I'm just using it as an example in the table of, for me at least, that becomes more important, And you know, and maybe it's because of who I am and trust and you know, when you, and I let people in...
So when I let people in there, you're in.
Yup. You know, and I don't have the time or the energy to have to second guess what I say to you or how I feel.
I want to be at the table with my friends completely myself.
But that means I'm assuming you are too, and if you're not, and in the case of Eva, Maybe her friend didn't feel like she was fully there, or maybe she wasn't.
Well, it started out with the term imbalanced, which I just can't understand when it comes to friendship.
Why? You could really say, what's your problem?
Because my friends are my friends.
There's relationships ebb and flow.
So it's rarely going to be where and everybody's feelings are balanced at the same time.
So isn't life always out of balance?
Yeah, I think I don't disagree with that.
But there is the, if you're always showing up, if you're always the one that's like checking in, if you're, even if you're always the one providing the tickets, that's fine.
Like tickets to the games, I'm always one with the tickets.
If you find out your other friend has tickets and didn't invite you, and you're not that, like that's still, there's an invite, like I'm always thinking of you first, because you're not thinking of me first. That's like, that's the unhealthy imbalance where it's just, okay, you're not going to show up for me in the same way that I show up for you.
Or like, you're always at my house and I'm never at yours.
Yeah. That's a problem.
I don't mind hosting, I don't mind being, because oftentimes with my friend group, I am the one with tickets, I am the one, I have resources, I've got the, I have more of the special, guess what we can do?
and there's a natural imbalance, but it's like you, if you never invite me on a trip, even if I can't go, or if you never plan a dinner, or whatever.
Even if it's just pizza.
I know your effort is yes.
Even if it's just pizza, like, girl, I know you like pizza and you invited me, this means a lot, you know.
And I'm fine. I will meet you where you're at.
Because I know that this is your love language.
But you can tell when someone's kind of checked out of any kind of effort, or that you don't rank as high on their list of friends.
That's the right reason.
So what's your version of balanced in friendship?
You know, I guess with me and my friends, because I like you, I don't want to generalize.
As long as every now and then somebody else buys a round of drinks or it's lightweight, been great.
You use tickets. That tickets is a great example.
Not everybody has the same means.
So inviting me to a Lakers game is one thing or if I invite you to a Lakers game and you invite me to a high school game, that's equivalency to me.
Yeah, I agree. That's equivalency to me.
But what I don't get about this relationship was that she knew it was imbalanced from the beginning, to your point, Isa.
My friends and I don't, we don't roll that way.
We're more transactional.
As long as we're getting something out of it, we feel okay.
We're just, we don't go as deep.
And like you were saying, how you're, it's sociology for women.
It's not, it's carpentry for men.
It's just. It's I didn't want to say Jim, but we enjoy each other for surface level enjoyment.
And if we need to go deep, we'll go deep.
To what extent? So like, even if I'm not getting in your business.
No, we aren't getting in his business.
For the divorce, I told like I tell her everything.
Okay. She left out the reason I didn't tell her, was because I was hoping that it would work out.
Because if it didn't work out and I got over it, she would never get over it.
Oh, interesting. So I was trying to save everybody's relationship.
Now, when I talked to my boys about it, that's when I go deep.
You did go deep with it.
So you actually brought up, Like this is the thing that I'm going through.
Or did you bring up, we're having problems. And let's talk about, or did you wait until?
Like I said at the outset, I waited until it was.
So you didn't go deep.
But no see now see, there's no timing to it.
I mean - But there is.
So it was deep for me.
It was deep for me, irrespective of the time.
Just the mere fact that you told somebody, the obvious, if you told your friends - That it happened.
That it happened. That it's happening.
When you were going through it, right, and it was hard, who did you talk to?
I talked to two really good friends of mine and we would go to a restaurant in Chicago ago on Friday after the market stopped trading and we have cigars and margaritas and it was three of us and we had one chair in the middle and we called it the chair of angst. So whoever was having trouble got to sit in the chair of angst and say, this is what I'm going through.
And for a while there, I was in the chair of angst for seven months.
because I was going through this.
And I wasn't ready to divulge it to my family because I didn't want, if I could somehow kick save this thing, then I could tell them after the fact, yeah, you know, well we had to work on it but everything's fine now.
But I know my family.
And if I - He's right about that?
Is he right? It's a sort of right.
We would have been, but you know, what your family needs at the time.
You know, there's no way we, we wouldn't have gone through a recovery of things.
It would just have been good to know that before it was like, everything's great and now everything is over.
That's how we found out.
That's how they found out.
They found out So it was like, what, how did you know.
So the sharpness of it.
I'm not saying it was the right thing to do.
It was a plan. That was my plan.
Yeah. But the thing that I like is that you did go deep with your friends.
That's why I think we were confused because it sounded like you did to them what you did to us.
What I was saying is we don't go deep until we need to go deep.
OK, well, that. But that's, you know.
It's not like a friendship is there's always something to dig into.
But I find that my friends, we always go in deep.
There's always something to dig into.
Because we talk about everything.
And there's just...
There are things that you don't know affect you until you talk about it.
It could be nothing.
It could be talking about a TV show episode that then leads to, like, oh, this happened to me, and this is how I was affected by it.
And there's just...
And nothing is off limits, and that's the beauty of it.
It's just you get to explore everything freely with no judgement, and that's also the devastation of, oh, I don't have this safe space anymore.
You are the safe space, or...
And I didn't even see that it was a malicious space.
which you know, getting back to this letter it's like this woman seemed like she was pouring her heart out to this, to Eva.
And Eva was like hit or miss.
And I don't even know if I like you girl.
It was cool, but, oh I guess I do like you, but it's too late.
And so I think that that's also a violation of just like am I in your life or not?
Do you like me or not?
Are we, are we good or not?
And now someone, something happened that's tragic and I think you're one of the last people I heard from, so maybe I need to be real about what this friendship actually was.
Yeah, and I think Eva's asking, am I a bad friend, right?
I mean I think this situation is worth giving her some pause, you know, with maybe the other friend she is close with in real time, if she does have those, and you know, and this is what women do, like, this would have happened to me in one friendship, and I would have gone to a set of friends to say, hey, hey.
100 percent, yes. This is what happened.
Am I messing up here?
Am I going to ask you what I wrong?
Right and the crew would be, they would dissect it.
They would be IMO in real time.
I think with what I know, what we understand from this letter, I would tell Eva, yeah, girl, you do need to think a little bit.
Think a little bit because you know, for somebody to go through something tragic and then in their letter with, I think this friendship is over because it's not giving me enough in this particular situation, she probably would check herself to say, you're right.
I wasn't fully in this.
I was ambivalent, and I thought it was okay for me to be ambivalent here because it didn't mean the same thing to Eva as it did to her friend.
I have to say that I'm also guilty.
Because part of this also triggered me in a way.
Because I am guilty of, again like you said, I am not a check in everyday type of person.
I'm a very much, when I'm here it's all about you.
But I don't check in as often as I should with friends.
And I've been told that in the past and I've adjusted.
But you just have to tell me.
But it's not a natural instinct.
And so with this, I understand like, Eva being...
Like this is kind of a high maintenance friendship in a way where I'm not going to be the same type of giving friend that you are to me, but I will show up in the ways that I can.
If you need me, I will always be there.
And so that is, that would make me consider, oh, am I, am I a bad friend?
Because I don't think, I think about you, but I might not text you to be like, hey, I just want to make sure you're okay.
But you should know that I would hope you would call me if you weren't okay and know that I would show up for you and be there for you.
I'm just not, I'm not considerate.
I'm not a considerate friend in the way that I would like to be.
That's a pronouncement there.
It's true. It's like one of my biggest flaws, because I'm just so work focused and I'm not like, I'll think about you but not tell you that I'm thinking about you.
Right. That's fair.
But that's also a part of friendship, because, like you said if you're honest, if you're friends know who you are, if there's some transparency there.
I have friends like that in times when I've been that friend and the hope is that people will be like, girl, she must be going through something, you know?
Or, she's busy, or, you know, and that's when you feel the security of friendship because you can completely show up as yourself, flaws and all.
The inconsiderate or the, you know, you got your friend group and it's like, well, East is not going to be the one to call because she just doesn't do that, you know?
I'm not a great, you know, I don't call on a regular basis, but I tend to organize my friends more.
For the same. I'm the one that's like, okay, let's think about this, or everybody come visit me here.
And that was because eight years also.
I mean, it was hard to reach me for eight years without a whole lot of goings -on.
And in order for me to maintain my friendships, I had to be more deliberate.
And over the years, I've become the more deliberate one.
And also, because of who I am, I think people just assume I don't want to bother you.
Yes, same. You know, because I'm not going to bring these problems. I've had so many of my good friends who went through stuff, and I'm like, why didn't you tell me?
I didn't want to bother you so that means I often have to bend over even more completely to check in so people know that when things are tough, do not not call us.
Because I mean, I'm not be able to do anything.
Well, now I'm mad at you for that.
I don't care that you gone through it, I'm mad at you.
Right, but you were going to say something before I cut you off.
No, no, no. That was great.
I appreciate that, and I also appreciate now.
You see, she would have been mad when she said she wouldn't.
She wouldn't have lasted.
Capital coins, we get mad, but it doesn't.
We don't stay mad. Absolutely not.
No, you don't. Can I ask you a question about the chair of angst?
Yes. Did they ask you questions or was it more of like a venting space, like, no?
Was it an inquiry? Yeah.
Yeah. It was. It was all of the above, because sometimes the person who was in the chair of Anks just needed to vent.
And in the venting, the other two would ask questions to find out, OK, is this really what's going on?
Or is there anything we can do?
Or what predicated this?
It was just it was a give and take.
It wasn't just a venting session, But it was, at least for me, it was liberating to be able to just have somebody to talk to about things that were deep and private, that I wasn't ready to share with the whole world.
That's dope, but you have to make a whole construct.
With cigars and margaritas and whatnot.
That's how we're the Cha...
She at the chair and you can't do anything no more.
No more questions, no more questions, no more questions, no more problems. It never happened.
Well, that's it. And that's the other thing you can't do with women or with me or your sister.
No, we don't let it go.
They don't let it go.
You are. You are never out of the chair.
Because now I'm calling you and going, okay, what happened today?
What happened here?
So not only do I have a sister, I have a wife, which has helped me communicate because I I say all the time, our relationship with my wife and the relationship with my daughter, who is now 28, I'm a better communicator, not just with women, but in general, because I, I get it, I get it.
There are times when my wife wants to talk to me and I don't want to talk, but I have to be intentional about she needs this.
With my friends, I never, I never.
Well, if I need it, I will go get it, But with my friends, it's - we never get there like that.
So a friend has never disappointed you?
Ah. Because you don't have expectations.
No, friends have disappointed.
But it doesn't injure me as deeply and if your next question is do I approach them and say, hey, you really disappointed me, I have. And I think that's why we keep our friendship.
And have you had that happen to you with one of your friends where they've approached you and said, hey, this is, you just show up in this way and I'm upset.
I have not. Have you ended up sounding cocky?
Oh, I have not. Oh, cause you're a good friend, I keep hitting this right.
Cause you're a good friend.
I hope that I am. You seem like you're a good friend.
You have a sister, you have to be a good friend.
It doesn't have to be deep friendship, it can be just below the surface.
But I think you allow people to just be comfortable with you and I think that that is essential in a friendship and you may not challenge them in a way, but if a friendship isn't serving you, will you just ignore it and keep it going?
I keep them around?
You'll never be like, I don't like hanging around, you get on my nerves.
Yeah. This is a really good question and I haven't thought about this because unlike my sister, I didn't make too many new friends as an adult.
After a certain period, I shouldn't say as an adult, as I've gotten older, so my friends are my friends and they're going to be my friends, and new people that I meet that I haven't known for a long time, who are friends, the shift to the right and they don't make the shift to the right, we just don't communicate as much. I call that the slow ghost. That she calls it a slow ghost. It's not enough to have a conversation with because do you really care?
So you'd go through the emotional energy, you just sort of let it die on the bottom.
Yeah and it does. It was a quiet death.
And which brings me to another point that you all didn't talk about, but it made me think about this, is that I don't mind being ghosted.
Me neither. I don't mind that.
If it didn't matter.
Yeah. If it didn't matter, it didn't matter.
But let's say I get the slow ghost, right?
I get the slow ghost and then a year later the guy texts me and say, hey, I'm gonna be in town.
Wanna go get a drink?
I'll be like, yeah, sure.
And you all laugh. But that is how we operate.
That is how we operate.
Just look at, the guys in here are all smiling, trying not to get in trouble.
They are trying, but not to get in trouble.
No, no, I'm just like, girl, you gave me a reason.
Thank you. No, you are done, I have too many people I've messed with.
Because there's nothing worse than, like having...
having, sometimes you just don't have time in making a new friend who you're kinda not sure about, and then you have to like make plans together.
If the slow ghost allows you to never speak to them again and never have to plan anything, and it's fine.
Ouch. But even with your friends, I'm sorry, your friends that you grew up with, inevitably, you guys, like you, you grow up, you become who you are supposed to be, right?
There are no friends that you've grown up with that you have where you're just like I've outgrown them mentally or they don't necessarily, we don't vibe the same anymore.
There's never been that and that thought has never crossed your mind.
The guys who I like say grammar school people who were my friends, I'm still in touch with.
And they've never since grammar school.
Since high school. First day of high school.
Okay, okay. But your friends that you hold now, your male friends, is that to say that you've never even fought?
No, we fought, yeah.
But it's - It's not an emotional fight.
There's no, I mean, I'm just like, I know his friends.
It's like there's just, there's not a lot going on.
There's no emotional fight.
You're talking about, I thought you're talking about like a fight.
No, and that's not, like guys, to me, y 'all will be like, like y 'all'll physically fight and be like, well, he the Alpha.
I'm the beta. That's it.
We're good for life.
Let's go have a beer.
Yeah. And no, if I physically fight one of my female friends, it's over.
Well, you all don't physically fight.
No, but in. But I get it.
I get it. But the emotional fights allow you to get closer or, you know, decide this isn't the right relationship.
I just think it goes back to the level, you know.
And again, this isn't true for everyone, but even just watching my brother, it's like, you know, your friend sort of hover around the surface and it's real meaningful friendships, but they're just not as deep as the friendships I see among women.
Until there is a crisis, then we go deep.
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's true.
People show up go to the funeral, you know, all of that sort of stuff.
But - You go straight to death, we're not the funeral.
You know what, I mean it's because that's what a crisis is - official friendships has got to be like a thing that happens.
It could be something going on with your kids, or it could be a divorce, or it could be car accident.
Something super dire.
Yeah. A crisis, but it's not - A crisis for women is just like...
Every day. Don't do it like that.
I guess - Man, I'm going to get it when I get home.
I'm going to give you an example, because my husband doesn't fully understand it and he's got great friends, for instance, the T .S.
since high school. I know his friends, he meaningful.
But when I'm, when a girlfriend comes to visit, it's usually like, you gotta stay for two days.
Because it's going to take us two days to check up, right?
And we're not planning anything.
We're gonna sit right here and we will be here.
So... It's not even a rule.
It's just a rule. It's not even a rule.
It's just a rule. This is kicking it.
And this is what it's gonna take.
You gotta stay for two days.
So, I'll have one of my good girlfriends over, spending the night, friends with Barack, love all that.
We sit on a couch, there's something in front of us, tea, crackers, move to wine, you know.
But we get up at 10 AM and we start the check -in.
Ahh! That sounds beautiful.
And it begins with first of all, girl, how you?
Tell me about you. And that's an hour.
just sort of emotionally mentally checking in.
Our two is like, okay, what about work?
And tell me about, because we know all about it.
Remember that HR person, you were going to let go, what happened with that girl?
She's still there? Oh, man, what did she do next?
And then you got to give an example of what she did.
Now, now it's lunchtime, right?
On day one, now Baraka's come in, he's come out and he's like, y 'all still talking?
He'll sit down for five minutes, be like hour the boys.
He's too much. and then it gets up and then it's like, ugh, ugh.
You just interrupted the time, you know.
And then it's three o 'clock and he's like, y 'all still here?
And it's like, well, we're just now getting on the kids and with one girlfriend, we each have two kids.
That's four kids, that's like an hour per kid.
Oh my gosh, I haven't even gotten to that phase yet.
Oh my God. It's 48 hours.
Cause each kid has, you know, we know the issues and the things we've, you know, Now we're at dinner on day one, right?
So, this is what I'm saying, and my husband is like, what are you all talking about all day?
And I was like, we're not, we're just scratching the surface.
And do you know that it's so, it feels so good after Phyllis.
It's just like, there's no better feeling been like, I just got, ugh, I reconnected with my girl.
She knows everything.
I've been holding, I was saving this story for her because only she would understand it.
Always say some stories, yes.
You like, I can't tell, like there's friendship.
There's, even in my groups, there's my friends who, if I wanna be mad at someone, and if I want to not know that I'm wrong, I go to her.
Cause she's never gonna, she's never gonna tell me I'm wrong, it's always, yeah, okay, who we, she's a it, you know?
She's up, it's like, yeah, I need a bet.
And then there's a friend that I go to, where I'm just like, I need, I need to know, the truth.
I need to know the truth.
I need to know that I'm not it, and they're going to give it to me straight.
Then there's just a loyal friend who is just going to listen and I can grab.
But everybody has a function in some way and they're just, it's just it's cathartic, it's so beautiful.
That's why I'm just. In the flip side of my husband.
Because he golfs, and golfing takes as long as the first session of our, it takes five hours to golf.
He'll golf with his buddies, come back and be like, how's X?
ice, he's good. He's like, what'd y 'all talk about?
Nothing. And I was like I will have heard like somebody has cancer.
And I was like, how was X, did you hear that they had cancer?
He's like, no, we didn't talk about that.
And I'm just like, you were golfing all day.
And it never came up.
It never came up. You never asked about our Godson.
For example, you're with his father, how is he?
I don't know, I think he's good.
It's like what were you all doing, sitting in a cart and I'm like, yeah, you have no information, and that's the difference because you'll be with each other all day looking directly away from each other at a ball.
Whereas when I'm with my friends, we are physically turned in towards one another, feet off com - sometimes we're touching, there are tears, and that can go on for hours.
And once you do that, then your feelings are gonna be hurt when you break up or somebody's gonna get mad.
I mean, with that level of kind of intimacy, I maintain that the chair of angst with me, Jimmy and Victor is exactly the same thing, it just doesn't take as long.
Okay, I don't know how you get anything out of sitting in a chair for dinner.
Because you're also not, it also has to be around a crisis, right?
It does. It takes a crisis to get it going.
This is also why women live longer, I think, that, man, because we're getting a lot of that out.
We're not right. And not to take it there, but y 'all keep it in here.
We do. The crisis would require an emergency session.
Oh, my God. Somebody's on a train.
Yeah, flying. Yeah, there's movement, and you're not gonna deal with the crisis.
Yeah, we're coming.
We're coming. It's a crisis.
My friend's dog died.
We were all there at the house, bringing her favorite snack.
Like, this is— she took off work.
That is a script. That is something that she could write on television.
All of it, because that's like— she's playing and doing a text like, you know, she's not gonna be good.
Like, she doesn't need this right now.
You know what's so horrible about that is guys would be like, Damn, yeah.
That's not a crisis.
Honestly, not a crisis.
Or the dog emojis. I didn't know you had a dog.
Yeah, what? What you gonna do?
OK. We are bad at this.
What about friends just talking about guys don't know how to express.
Thugs us a cat. Guys in tech don't know how to express emotions.
Emotions, it would use emojis, like the wrong, like, ah, y 'all, I lost my aunt.
Dang, fire emoji, ghost emoji.
Just, wow. Just don't have the language for it.
That's not what those feelings are.
You don't even understand the emoji feelings.
You're so disconnected from feelings.
I don't know what they are, but I'm 60.
Firey, see how I'm trying to give you something.
So, I don't know. But for your generation of emotions, you don't even know what fire is for.
Yeah, so why do we have emotion?
Oh, geez. They're literal.
It's like, hot dog, hot dog.
I'm hungry, I want lunch. Fire is like...
I don't want Eva to think we are not taking her issue seriously.
Okay, yeah, I forgot about Eva.
No, we almost... We lost the friend.
Well, is it possible to set boundaries...
For sure. In a friendship that's unbalanced?
That's what I'm gonna have to be honest about.
Like, hey, girl, like, I have a lot on my plate and I'm...
that's hard to say because that was, yeah, I was gonna say, like, I just want to be a dinner friend.
And I guess in those situations where I've been confronted about, like, hey, cause I have been, I feel like I give you more energy than I have just been like, I've blamed it on work, I've blamed it on I'm busy, but I haven't said, I don't want to devote the time to this.
saying that I have work, is the excuse.
And making choose to pleasantly ghost me, and I wouldn't be as affected.
The fact that Eva is actually affected by this is what's confusing me.
Because you didn't dedicate the energy to want to be your friend.
And I'd imagine that you do have a set of friends that are hired to your friends that like do get your time and energy, that you do consider those people.
or you're just a loner and don't know how to make friends.
And that's a whole different situation, but I'm confused by the loss because you have this person who cared about you, invested in you, that is kind of selfish if you didn't feel the same way about them.
So, yeah, it's fair to set boundaries, but I think it starts with knowing, well, who do you want to be?
How do you want to show up?
You know, and the honesty first has to be within yourself, I mean, I think both of us probably as Capricorns, we're probably a little more honest about who we are, what we want.
Even though women talk a lot, sometimes we don't spend that time because we're pouring that energy out.
I understand you before I understand me.
That's the nature of, a lot of times women are giving or, you know, without opening themselves up, because that's hard, you know, and maybe what I would say to Eva is, maybe it's time for her to just, she's asking, do some personal reflection about what does she want in friendship and how does she want to show up.
How does she want to show up?
Because if she's a loner and is somebody who doesn't want high -maintenance friendships, She's at the age where it's okay for her to own that about herself.
And make some friends with some guys.
Right. Or, you know, be okay.
Then understand that there will be times and then that she will get that response from friends.
It's like, I thought we were this and we're not.
You hurt my feelings and it's over.
Right? And not take it to heart.
If that's the kind of friend you are because that's where you are in life, but if you don't want that to happen again, If that really does bother you, then you got to take stock about how you need to show up for people.
And what's an example of that how showing up, is that just, I hear I hear communication, I get that.
But understanding who your friend is and what they need.
Like being a little more considerate about the other person and what they need and just like you do with a loved one, you have to do in any relationship, sometimes you do what they need, even if it's not what you need.
And with friends, you don't have to do it every day like you do for your partner, your life partner, but you do have to be aware, you know, and show up every now and then.
And it sounds like Eva may not have shown up at all for this friend.
And so you gotta, you know, you're going to have to give people what they need at some point to get what you need.
It's like friendship language.
What's your friend's friendship language?
Is it time? Is it crisis management?
Is it, you know, is it acts of service?
Is it brutal honesty?
Is it emotional vulnerability?
I would say that that's my friendship language.
I value people's honest emotional vulnerability.
That means a lot to me.
But even hearing you say this, there's, you also have to have the recognition that maybe you're also not compatible.
Because some of it, some, some friendships the most beautiful friendships are just instinctive.
They're instinctual, like you, You don't have to.
you don't have to try.
You are the yin to the yang, you're, you fit in like puzzle pieces, and then they're, they're, you know, when they're missteps, you can talk about them comfortably without necessarily feeling like you're, you're offending.
And if this feels like very much like Eva had to Trying too hard and - It had to be something she was not.
To be something that she wanted and that she didn't really want and so I think considering that and that goes back to being honest with yourself but the best friendships I have, you haven't had to do all that and the worst friendships I've had that have I've silently ghosted or they have silently ghosted me.
It was hard to manage.
There were just, there was always something and it felt uncomfortable.
So yeah, being honest with yourself about that is crucial.
And how old is Eva again?
Yeah. I was wondering that too.
32, yeah. This is when people start falling off girl.
Your thirties is like when it whittles down to it.
Yeah. Who's gonna be there?
And does she have kids?
No. And it's gonna whittle even more.
What do you choose?
If she chooses to partner and have kids, it changes.
Anyway, I think that's also what I would say to Eva.
It's like this is life.
Yeah. You know, and like she said in her letter, friends aren't family, you know, and sometimes that's good and sometimes that's not, you know.
Friends will, there are seasons for friends and who knows, in their 40s or 50s, they may reconnect, you know.
You so this is perfect because I'm thinking it back to Eva.
One of the things I would like Eva to take away from this is that being in an unbalanced relationship doesn't mean it has to in the relationship.
If you want it to be another way, I'm learning from you all, if I'm in an unbalanced relationship and I'm the one feeling unbalanced, I got to go to the person and say, hey, look, this is what I want out of a relationship.
If they can't provide it, then we got to think about it in there.
That's what her friend essentially did.
But her friend did it during the breakup.
I'm curious if the friend ever came to her and was like, this is what I need from relationship.
I feel like this is unbalanced.
It seems like she was like, this is the last run.
Like, my relative died, he didn't show up, this has been unbalanced.
And maybe it became clear to her in that moment, which I think she said.
She said all of a sudden you ain't shit.
You're brilliant. I realized that.
And that's just the way the cookie come goes.
I wonder if Eva also fought for it.
Doesn't it sounds like she's in contemplation about it?
About fighting for it?
Or letting it go. It feels like she's let it go.
It feels like she didn't fight for it.
But I don't think we have that.
Do you guys do follow?
Well, we could. Well, I need to know.
Well, let's figure out a couple three things that we can tell Eva, and then maybe we could figure out a follow -up with her.
Well, one of the things I think you mentioned is if you have this other set of friends holding court and just being like, hey guys, how do I?
Am I selling on the city?
I'm selling on the city, yeah.
Take it to your counsel.
What are the ways that I don't show up, have I been a bad friend and like use that to become a better friend?
I completely agree with that.
And also, you know, be easy on yourself, you're 32, this is how it goes.
You know, people come, people go.
Even hurts can be healed because you know, who knows will you be when you're 50, you know.
Life is long and friendships have ebbs and flows.
And in the meantime, what I would tell her is, use this as an opportunity since you're bothered by it to figure out how you can grow.
And one thing that I've done before, write a letter with no expectation of a response.
If you really do care about how your actions impacted this person, write a letter of apology, say where you're coming from, and let that person know, hey, I just wanted to get this off my chest. This is the way that I really valued you.
I'm sorry I didn't show up for you in this way.
The door's still open to be friends if you'll walk through it again, but feel free not to respond.
I just wanted to get this up.
If you really feel badly about it, write her a letter, but don't expect a response.
I like that. I like that, too.
But you know what I like even more is when Isa said, just get a guy friend.
Honestly, you want a low maintenance for this shit.
You want a low maintenance?
Get a guy friend. Don't worry.
You don't have to even know if he has a dog.
We really care about you.
No, for real. You'll be good, girl.
You'll be all right.
This is how the, as you said, Isa, the cookie crumbles.
Life is like this, but this has been fun.
Yeah, this is so fun.
What's the next letter?
Oh, you... You gotta give me that?
Yeah, come on. Let it go.
Got that one down. Thank you so much. Thank you, guys.
That was a preview of IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson.
You can find more episodes wherever you get podcasts.
