Isaac Humphries - Coming Out On Court | The Imperfects

This episode of The Imperfects mentions suicide.

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My name is Bridget and I produce The Imperfects.

I grew up in Australia, but my ancestors arrived by boat in search of gold during the 1800s.

What I've come to realise is that they arrived on land that had been cared for by the Indigenous peoples of this continent for millennia.

It was and always will be Aboriginal land.

We at The Imperfects would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded, and we extend our respects to their elders past and present.

At The Imperfects my job is to create a space for important stories to be heard. And in doing so I pay homage to a rich history of storytelling cultivated by the world's oldest living culture.

They had made these shirts like a rainbow Melbourne United logo, and wanted everyone to take a photo after in the shirts and I vetoed it I said no like we're not sure how this is gonna go down this is not what it's about like I don't want to do all of that and I just watched every single player like come in one by one and take a shirt and put it on without even letting me say anything and it was just awesome.

We're all imperfect and on this podcast I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections.

I'm Hugh Van Carlenberg from the Resilience Project.

And I'm Ryan Shelton from My Mum.

And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.

And this is The Imperfect.

We're back with another episode and gosh, this is a good one.

I'm excited that this is in the world today.

Oh, so am I. It's a great, great way to put it.

I'm very excited, yes.

We're chatting today with, hi Josh, how are you?

Hey, hey I'm excited too.

Fiddling with knobs and things over there.

I'm getting old. I don't need to explain anything else.

No, just kidding. Fiddling with knobs over there.

For anyone listening, I operate the dials.

Yes, that's what I want to do.

The reason I'm so excited, the reason we're all excited is because today's episode is with Isaac Humphries, who is an MBL basketballer, who a couple of years ago did the most incredible thing.

Well, I mean, it shouldn't be incredible.

It should be the norm, but because it isn't the norm because no one's really done it before.

It was incredible. Well, he is now, am I right in saying that he is the only openly gay basketball or professional basketball in the world.

Yeah. Unbelievable.

And how he got to the point where he actually came out is it was so fascinating to listen to just, I guess him knowing from a young age as well that he was gay and then trying to make sense of that, you know, very blokey and masculine world to the point where he decides to share it with the world, to inspire others.

It's just an incredible chat.

So, yeah, I agree that the thing that I found really challenging and quite difficult to hear the bullying as well, that he went through as a younger boy when he was sort of late in primary school, that stuff is really tragic, and it's really hard to imagine it when you say this confident, high achieving person.

It's often hard to imagine what they went through early on in life.

And I thought that was fascinating.

Can't wait to get into that.

I just want to share some with you guys very quickly.

you'll see I've put some paper in front of you.

I've got something to show you in a second.

As you guys know, I went to India for a four -night, five -day trip with a friend of ours, Magic Mike, not the stripper one the magician one, we went to visit Pat Cummins playing in the IPL, an incredible thing to do.

But it was it was arranged very last minute and I know there were whispers behind my back from family that the admin involved with getting overseas during the visa.

Yeah what are you like with getting like traveling.

Oh horrendous. Horrendous, my ADHD just the admin side of things is just not my forte.

Very last minute was trying to fill out all the forms and everything done the visa and checking out everything and the visa was taken there's an online obviously it was an online process that was causing quite a few issues I I couldn't get my for whatever reason, I was calling you, Josh and Bridge as well, trying to help with payments.

I couldn't, my card didn't work.

And it was just and I was getting it down, it said that it had five working days and I was leaving in four.

So I was really leaving until last minute.

And in a bit of a panic, I realised I had to do it before midnight.

I was up at 11 o 'clock on this certain night.

Gotta get it done by here, I was like I'm not going to get there.

The last thing was to just it just said, said a touch of photo must be like the passport style photo must be from shoulders up.

And I went, yeah, no, I've definitely got one of those.

That's good. No, I've got a good one for that.

That's shoulders up.

It's good light. It's good quality photo.

Perfect. Attached that, got to the airport and went up to the guy and he said, Oh, passport, thanks.

I showed him is it Qantas?

And then he said, and you have a visa?

And, what do you mean?

And he said, I need to see your visa.

And I said, how do I show it to you?

I just, I did it online.

Yeah. He goes, what do you mean?

And I said, well, I did it online.

You need to print it out and bring it here.

Oh, I hate this. He says, do you have the form on your phone yet?

And he said, well the chemist around the corner will print it for you.

Oh, that's amazing.

And he goes, and come back to this point.

Don't queue up again.

Come back to this point and, this is great, thank you.

Went to the chemist and they said, just email it to us.

And I emailed it to her and I was just looking at products while she was printing.

I heard the most outrageously loud laughter, uproarious laughter coming from the chemist as she's printing my stuff.

This is such an adventure so far.

I was like, what, what, I wonder what's going on there?

And it was so loud, she looked at me and she was very good.

And I went, I thought, I honestly thought, oh, she has just worked out that I do the podcast. She loves the podcast. And she's just, I don't know, remembered something funny from that.

It was a callback to her story from a very long time ago.

Yeah. And so since there you go, and she printed it out to go back to her and went thank you.

And I went up to her at Qantas, went back and I said to the guy, here you go, here's my visa.

absolutely pissed himself laughing.

Have a look at the photo that I stupidly chose to put there.

Oh you're looking now?

You can look it now, this is the photo that I chose.

This is basically a headshot, it's basically like the shot from when you starred in the Gaz Man commercial when you were 20.

And you're just very subtly leaning on your hand.

We'll share it on if you don't want to on YouTube we can share this on Instagram.

This is when there was like a magazine article about you that was like some professional photo sh - I wasn't thinking it just said the photo has to be like from the shoulders up and good light and they're giving instructions on how to do a passport photo.

You have to look hot.

And I just went, I just wonder what I just googled myself and at the first photo that came up was me leaning on my chin looking quite sultry and like trying to look just hot.

And now they're pissing themselves because of that photo.

Well, you're meant to just take a normal passport photo where you're not smiling.

You're just like completely meant to be stern looking into the camera, not smiling.

I submitted a model shot.

Well, I think it's a lovely photo Hugh.

Yeah. I think you look very handsome.

You look very smart.

Very smart. Everyone's going to think you're very good looking.

Oh wow. Let's definitely get that on socials ASAP.

A little thirst trap.

Yes please. Amazing.

Anyway, spend here, thirst traps, for your ears.

This is a beauty, this one.

We weren't speaking about that, but that's my Segway.

Segu. Yeah. Isn't it funny how Segway's spelled?

Never ceases to blow my mind.

Yeah, it's great. S -E -G -U -E.

Yeah. Segway. No. Segue.

Anyway, it's an incredible conversation, so we won't hold off any longer.

Here is Isaac on a priest. We're joined by, well, this is a man who does many things.

I'm going to read a full bio here because I would like people to get an understanding of this incredible man who sits with us today.

We are so unbelievably privileged.

The first time I heard about you, I just thought this, I mean this For us, this is a dream guest. Athlete, more specifically basketball, so how tall are you?

Seven foot? Yeah, seven foot, yeah.

Isn't it. I love staying next to a seven foot man.

Do you? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess, yeah.

Why do you love it?

It's exciting. Yeah.

Just to see what's possible.

If I keep trying. What man can do, you know, eats to their own, you know.

Anyway, basketball musician and advocate, And he's a very, very busy man.

He's also the only active openly -gay basketball player in the world.

Growing up in Cronulla, Sydney as the youngest of three, Isaac was six foot two by the age of 13.

Yeah, probably was.

That's like year seven.

And - That was fun. Are you already playing basketball at that age?

You must be. I just started.

Was that sarcastic?

Sorry, just quickly jump in when you said that was fun?

Very sarcastic. Yeah.

Probably a bit too unpacked there.

But, being a 6 '3", 13 -year -old, yeah, definitely was tricky.

Isaac loved performing onstage, however his height and incredible athletic talent saw him off to the U .S. at age 16 years to play basketball.

Isaac attended Kentucky University, which is one of the most prestigious basketball schools in the country, therefore the world, before leaving after two years to be eligible for the NBA draft. After training with several NBA teams over the American summer, Isaac returned to Australia to play for the Sydney Kings in the National Basketball League, where he won Rookie of the Year Award for the 2017 -2018 season.

Isaac played basketball professionally in Serbia.

Oh my gosh. The clips on social media I've seen about basketball in Serbia.

Oh yeah. That's the most - The crowds going - The craziest sporting scene I've ever seen in my life.

The crowds, yeah. That was something to - Yeah, I saw some crazy stuff from the crowds.

Yeah, like spitting on us and - Oh yeah one one time I remember sitting in a huddle like in a time out and Coach yelling at us because he's always yelling in Serbian you know they're always yelling and just his golly like hitting him on the face and just mid time out I just couldn't believe that something like fans from above us have spat on him.

Oh a spit. Yeah like a full golly I don't know what you call it in Melbourne maybe, Lougie or something like that.

Yeah Luke, just all massive and then it was no good.

He tried to climb over us and fight him in the middle of a game.

Just average, I'll never forget that, that was unreal.

Crazy. And this is the part where I sort of came to learn, well we all came to learn about your story here, but in 2020, Isaac came out to his Melbourne United team mates, captioning on videos, Isaac's fear and emotion is clear as he made his first public step to living life authentically.

Since this moment Isaac has become a global role model especially for queer men as one of the three openly gay men across the sports of soccer, American football, ice hockey, AFL, NRL, cricket, baseball, basketball, and tennis codes.

Which you just really have to take a second to think about how wild that is.

Yeah even I was. Yeah that's a lot of people.

A lot of people. I didn't even know that.

Isak currently plays for the Adelaide 36ers.

I had an Adelaide 36ers basketball as a ten -year -old kid, which is probably going to make it to the final cut.

Was not in the bio.

Just an ad -lib. The yellow, the yellow, red and blue.

He's a spokesperson for R U OK?

We are so honored to have you here.

Wow, I'm honored as well, thank you.

So your childhood, well the first thing I thought was, And as a kid who played basketball at school, I so fondly remember the day Nigel Purchase came out for a clinic.

And we asked him to dunk afterwards and he refused because he wasn't wearing his dunking boots and then everyone booed him.

And he left it off.

That old excuse huh?

We all use that one.

Dunking boots. I often see players put them on halfway down the keep.

Those special boots for dunking.

Anyway, I, you know, being tall was just like, I just wanted to be tall.

I just wanted to play and be at basketball.

So, I just wanted to be tall.

But you just said before that it wasn't a good experience for you.

Can you talk to us a little bit about your childhood, because it seems like already, I sort of get the feel that feeling different is normal to you, or has been for a while.

Yeah, definitely, it has.

Yeah, being unique, being different has been my whole childhood, my whole adolescenthood, and it just was different things as to what I was unique about.

growing up, I was always the, you know, weird kid running off, chasing butterflies or, you know, trying to be wrangled by Mom.

Just danced a bit of my own drum, sort of thing.

And then I very obviously have had a passion for the arts and was then the only boy in the dance group or the only, you know, boy, you know, that sort of thing was definitely my lane.

And then like the bullying sort of started because of that side of my life.

Like, you know, the gay kid, like, this and that.

is that, was that kind of stuff, like were people saying that to you?

Yeah, yeah. That's where like the word fag came into my understanding and started to, you know, understand what all that meant.

And, and like the self homophobia started developing, um, you know, in primary school sort of thing, like through that side of the bullying and then What does, sorry to stop you, what does self homophobia mean?

Like you developed a negative, Yeah.

So self homophobia is what, like, a lot of closeted gay people go through.

It's like this battle within yourself.

You, yeah, there's homophobia.

And then you, you believe that though about yourself, like all the negative things people say about gay people, and all these connotations that we all have, So you believe within yourself.

So yeah, it's a very toxic, damaging relationship to have within your own brain.

But that's a really big reason as to why, you know, a lot of a lot of us struggle coming out a lot of, you know, there's a lot of suicide in my community and like all that stuff because it's a constant battle between what we've been taught to believe is wrong and like just trying to also exist within like who we might be or want to become.

Is this as a teenager you're talking about here?

I'm probably talking about like, no, like pre 13, honestly.

So this is all just developing.

These are these like primal wounds that are started to develop for me.

And obviously I've done so much work now in understanding my sexuality and it's started around there.

And yeah, it's just been a really interesting thing to learn about myself.

was it hard in, I guess we're talking primary school, was, did you have many male friends or was the bullying so vast?

Yes it was so like unique in that way as well where I would be friends with all the girls, but still be really sporty and friends with all the guys as well in the popular group.

But, quote -unquote popular group whatever.

So had that as well, it just, it was just, yeah and often the bullying came from people within my own sort of circle and, and friendship group, you know, as a kid, I guess.

Not necessarily my friends but you know, those groups can get quite big it's at school and That's that's very confusing because that's because I think in, I was just assuming the kind of like, I was assuming that you're, it was more like the story of the outcast who is teased, and I imagine in that it still be so painful, but at least you know, there's like a very clear divide, like who I can trust and who I can't trust. Yeah, no. On any given day it could just be anyone different.

It was never a black or white sort of scenario there in primary school for me.

And then, my mom had an opportunity to go to Canada to study accounting or something, and we all packed up and moved to Canada when I was about 12.

I finally left that really hard bullying period behind and had my first ever positive schooling experience in Canada.

And then came home and during my time, eight months in Canada, I'd grown so tall.

I had these massive growth spurts.

Came back and I was, yeah, at least 6 -1 or 6 -2 in year 6.

Like, I go on into year 7.

Some people come back with an accent.

Yeah, I came back a hundred feet tall or whatever.

So, and then it shifted from the gay kid to the freak, like the tall freak.

And that was a real, like I was very insecure already.

Very insecure kid trying to just figure out like as we all are figure out what was going on in my body and my mind, like, there were so many things that were constantly pointed out to me about myself that were wrong.

So trying to sort of unpack all that as a 12, 13 -year -old was very difficult.

And then that transition into high school was very hard for me.

Were you, at that point, did you have people that you could like talk to about how you were feeling?

Not really, no. This is, sorry to interrupt but this is just fascinating to hear.

Knowing what you end up being courageous enough to do and bold enough to do.

As a parent, I'm just sitting here thinking I'm so interested in everything that's happened in your upbringing to get you to a point where you are able to do this thing which, I'm sure took incredible bravery.

I'm just so fascinated with this part of the story because I want my kids to be like you.

Like I want my kids to be able to stand up and say, this is who I am.

A bit taller ideally, but ...

Wow! Elsie at seven foot two!

I was wondering when that growth spurt was happening in Canada and did you know you were coming back to Australia at that point?

Yeah, yeah. Were you kind of hating it?

Like was there a fear of oh no, this is a this is something that's going to put me out?

Or were you like no, I think this is— No I had no idea.

No, I had no idea. Like it was like a wall.

I got home and it was that just that tall poppy Australian culture that, you know, you can't be anything different.

Like how dare you? Yeah.

You know I found a safe space in basketball and that— I came home from Canada, started playing basketball.

Like my best friend who's still my best friend.

He played a Monday night league and said like, come along and try basketball.

Basketball being literally one of the only places where Tall Poppy doesn't apply.

Exactly. Yeah. So we thought, yeah, like it was literally our thoughts, maybe I could be accepted here sort of thing.

Hang on, that was his thoughts as well.

He was like Probably meant my mum and I honestly to try to just find me something to fit in, sort of thing.

I'd given up I'd been bullied out of my music.

Like I'd stop really all of that yeah, because it was just too hard to handle The name calling yeah, like it was too gay to be like to be in the music or whatever like so The protective mechanism was to just not do any of that anymore not supposed to do it.

Yeah and sport was safer from the gay label and yeah, but but you know school was relentless like I Year 7 was a tricky year.

I ended up getting taken out of school and not allowed to go to school anymore because I was deemed unsafe for me to be at school.

And my friend was a neighbour, he would put my homework on the front porch every afternoon because I wasn't allowed to go to school.

Like people would bring like whole cartons of eggs and like just peg them at me all day.

Tomatoes, apples. I'd come home with just shit all over my uniform.

And, you know, the older kids like coming down on a Year 7 tall freak, like that was their sort of freak and then I'd hear it and just get just smashed with whatever, kicking things at me.

It was just crazy. And because I was tall, I stood out.

Yeah, while just navigating all of this, you know, like knowing I was gay, knowing I couldn't.

So, you knew at this time.

Yeah, for sure. But just struggling to.

Of course. Like, that was enough to sort of handle.

So yeah, Year Seven wasn't ideal at all.

And it's just sickening to think about that.

It's really heartbreaking.

It is just heartbreaking.

And then so yeah when I say like that sarcasm yeah it is sarcasm because being tall was not always positive for me at all, and it's taken a lot of these amazing opportunities that simply being tall, being great basketball player has brought me to sort of have it all finally marry up and and make sense.

It must have felt like there was no escape from it and shame, I guess for some people who are trying to mask some part of their existence, there might be refuge in something else.

But it must have felt like, and I use these words very much in inverted commas, but that you were kind of wrong on the inside and the out.

Yeah. Well, the mate to believe that way anyway, yeah.

And did believe that.

Yeah, but like, it's not easy going to school or going anywhere.

And every single person staring at you, every single person commenting on your heart or laughing at you, or like never positive, you know, never, never positive.

And you just, yeah, you learn to believe that externally, you're wrong sort of thing.

And then battling internal, all these internal thoughts as well.

So yeah, that was my sort of beginning to teenagehood.

And then I got an opportunity through basketball.

Like this is where basketball started to change my life and essentially save my life as well.

To go to one of the best private schools in Australia to play basketball.

And I was taken out of that school and put into a private school in Sydney, Scotts College, and it just changed my life forever.

Like it really did.

And it took a little bit of adjusting, like obviously to understand that people's inquisitiveness wasn't to be an asshole or like, you know, because I would often take how tall are you?

Like all of these tall questions I'll take quite negatively because I was so used to that.

But then it turned into this really positive admiration and on the basketball you're a new basketball player, like yeah, we got there and, and music started coming back into my life.

I had a music teacher who still she's coming down to my shows next week, like she's still front center every show, you know, she's come to the US to perform with me in shows.

You know, she took me under her wing and allowed me to explore my music side as well.

And yeah, at one point I was singing, singing in front of the school and playing basketball on the weekends for the in front of because you know how you do Saturday sport, I was captain of basketball at one point and singing in the school musicals as well, like it was a very cool environment.

and felt accepted. Oh yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, standing ovations during the performance.

I just loved it. Yeah, it was a - Wow.

It was a place where you were taught and encouraged to be outside of the square.

And it was the first time I'd ever experienced that.

Because it kinda goes, I don't know anything about Scotts College at all, but my sort of like very, very baseline assumption, is that a boys, all boys school?

Yeah, all boys. Yeah, my assumption would be that like the best all boys private school in Sydney would not be accepting of difference.

And it's so nice to hear that that's not true.

Yeah, well, look, that was my experience anyway.

Like, I didn't feel that way.

I felt immediately accepted with a few growing pains, but learn to understand a lot about myself there.

So I will always hold that time in my life very special for sure.

Just a quick thing to say to teachers.

I did the privilege of being a teacher and the influence you can have on someone's life.

Do you hear just there?

Just a reminder for any teachers listening that it can get, you can get stuck in the report writing and the politics of the staff room.

But just a reminder that the impact you can have on someone's life is to change the course of someone's life.

It's just huge. Two teachers, my basketball coach and my music teacher.

they just absolutely changed the trajectory of where I was meant to sort of be going.

What do you think that the like the difference between, it sounds like you didn't change, but the way that everyone reacted to you changed significantly between these two places, what do you think that's down to?

I think culture, the the culture that was you know, I grew up in Cronello and it's a very judgmental sort of part of Sydney.

It's very beachy, very like you have to be good -looking and blonde and all the same, like it's just, you have to be all the same in order to fit in.

Whereas I think going into the city to a private school where students are probably exposed to a lot more in their life and different cultures, a lot more worldly, I think they were just a lot more open to whatever was sort of coming into school and like, it just didn't even feel remotely similar at all.

Have you ever, like, since leaving that school, have you come across those kids who bullied you and...

Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah.

It's very different now.

It's almost hilarious how different it is.

And I stand very tall and look them down in the face and just say, like, how you going?

and like, oh, what's going on.

And there's no point I feel in me sort of harping on all of that stuff.

I've moved on and learned a lot of lessons through that.

And I wouldn't be the person that I am having the like courage and understanding to do the things that I've done in my life without those moments and without those people.

So it's funny. Like I still remember their names like first and last names, like their face, like everything.

And, um, you know, they're still in my friends from that area, that they're all still hanging out.

Like they, they're like still in their time machine sort of like life and that's fine.

You know? I'm not. So, um, I like all good, you know, I'm doing exactly what I want to do and, and, and helping people.

So yeah. Amazing. Yeah.

I think on the private school thing, my experience of it having gone to a private school in Melbourne and someone who played sport and did music was that in my case, it sounds like potentially in your case as well, I think private schools celebrate achievement I think and they love people who are good at stuff.

So I think if you're good at it, that bypasses a lot of that stuff.

Like, it's okay to be different if you're good.

Right. That's fair.

That was certainly my experience.

But I what you were talking about before reminded me of something happened in my life, I wanted to ask you if there was a similar moment for you.

I remember when I, in year seven was terrified.

I wanted to start playing guitar, started singing.

I'd always started playing guitar.

And I was going to perform at like a school thing.

And I remember the exact, speaking of the names, I remember the exact guy in my head that I was like, I'm terrified of what that guy's gonna say.

When I get up and play.

Um, and I got up and performed and he came up to me afterwards.

I like walked past him and he was like, that was pretty good.

And it was this like sense of relief.

And I honestly think his reaction at that point changed the trajectory of my life.

cause if he'd given me shit, I probably would have stopped.

Yeah, yeah. But it was so nerve wracking to get back into it.

Was there a moment for you when you started attending the new school and the option of music came across your plate and you thought, I don't know if I can do this or I should or I have to, or what was.

Definitely. I can remember exactly what moment it was.

I, um, I started a, I, uh, that music teacher that I just mentioned, she started a barbershop quartet and this in the school and it was just like a we did auditions and it was this whole thing and I made it in and it was just like it started as me and a couple maybe drama kids or music kids that just you know wanted to sing or whatever yeah and our first assembly performance was coming up and I was too scared to stand next to them and be tall like way taller than them and I was still a little, like I hadn't quite gotten over those scars.

Like I probably still haven't to this day, but yeah.

I was really nervous about standing in front of the whole school that I was sort of relatively new year shots still, with people who were just so much shorter than me and I was very, very nervous.

So, and my teacher, she just could tell.

And she just knew cause I would just, like, I'd shrivel down and try to be as small as possible.

And she just knew that I was really struggling with that.

So she had as a bit asked my permission, but, you know, made me feel a lot more comfortable.

But as a bit, we played into it.

And they all like, we walked up on stage and sort of, they looked at me and then they like went and got chairs and all stood on chairs.

And so they were all the same height as me.

And it just, everyone loved it.

Like, and I loved it.

I didn't feel so out of, even then they were all on chairs.

Like, I just didn't feel like I was standing out and so sneak above everyone.

and then we sung man in the mirror by Michael Jackson and it was epic and the whole school just absolutely went crazy crazy and yeah I remember that, that's like, I was terrified to just be tall like in front of everyone.

Even though I was literally there to be a basketball like we all knew, you know.

But yeah that's a cool moment and then with that barbershop quartet like talk about culture and like things that that we turned that into as the years went on with that group it ended up being me who was captain of basketball, another guy who was captain of rugby, another guy who was head day prefect, so one of the prefects, and captain of rowing.

So all standing in front of the school singing barbershop quartet.

That's unique. It was crazy what we created.

As far as high schools go, that's a super group.

Yes, it was. It was.

It was. It was, like, all the captains and heads, here we are singing show tunes in front of the school.

Yeah, yeah. And killing it.

It was so... It's an amazing moment for all the other boys, they're all just watching it, okay, this is...

Yeah. You can do it.

I've got to learn some show tunes.

This is what we're doing now.

We're doing it. We just made it happen, it was very cool, yeah, very cool.

There's something beautiful in the way that, I know it was a joke in a bit, but she's literally...

for someone who you'd been told, or at least like bullied for being an outsider and the desire was I need to change to be like other people.

To have her say no we're gonna change to be like you is just so profound.

Yeah. What's her name?

Unbelievable. Her name is Mrs. Vandenboel.

She hates me calling her Mrs. Vandenboel still.

I'm supposed to call her her first name but I refuse.

Still on my phone. First name, Miss.

But her name's Andrew Vandenboel and she's an unbelievable human being.

Let's give her a shout out.

She's amazing. This question, I guess, comes from a reasonably naive place, but at what age are you when you discovers the right word, but work out that you're gay?

When does that happen in your journey?

I remember as in primary school knowing things were, or thinking things were different in my brain, like, I just felt like I thought differently than what everyone else was sort of saying.

And then I just thought I'd grow out of it.

Like, you know, oh, you grew up, everyone sort of says, oh, you grow up, boys grow up to like girls sort of things, and you think, okay, well, maybe when I grow up, like I'll eventually start to like girls and stuff like that, and it just never came, like as much as I forced it and tried all the things and, yeah, I tried to explore and figure that out, it just never, yeah, it never came, like at some point I had to think, well, okay, well, yeah, this isn't gonna change, like this is exactly who you are.

Sorry what are the things you say you tried?

Well you try to like date girls and explore physically with girls and that's probably the first steps of it and then I got so dark and negative that I tried like hypnotherapy to try to hypnotise me out of being gay, all of those thoughts.

And that was your idea to do that?

Yeah. Wow. What else?

I've had the fake girlfriends or the real girlfriends as just like you know, the lavender relationships, just the, just to keep face.

Like sort of thing.

You just create all these security blankets that could maybe just keep people off your back sort of thing.

So I'm interested in in hypnotherapy.

Did you actually do it?

Yeah I did it over and over as well.

Like multiple sessions.

How is that? I started googling like cures for gay or cures for homosexual, like that sort of thing or just hoping and praying.

Like maybe something would sort of pop up and I was thinking outside the square, like, you know what, what maybe that you can't, like you can't cure it.

Obviously that's just a very naive hope, very hopeful thought.

But then I just remember thinking maybe I could alter like the way I see things or view things or whatever, maybe I could be hypnotized out of thinking that about guys and maybe more towards girls sort of thing.

Because of that point in my life, the wife and kids was very much all I really wanted.

And I wanted to be a parent.

Very much wanted that sort of life.

Oh really? So you'd like dreamed of their sort of classic?

Yeah, I did absolutely, and I don't know if that is again a byproduct of what's going on in my head, like that again, cell phone phobia.

Like, so much happens in your head where you talk yourself out of, like, all of these scenarios and you, like, you have to have a wife and kids.

Like what other option, you know, there's no other option.

So, yeah, I went to the sessions and she, I've had people say, like, she took your money, like she actually took your money, and like.

Yeah, no she definitely did.

And I went back over and over, and our goal was to hypnotise me into believing that a wife and kids and a house was the be -all -end -all.

Like that was her approach sort of thing.

And I remember her saying, like, Oh, you can have those thoughts about guys, but as long as you don't act on them, sort of thing.

I remember thinking that so wrong and weird to say like that is just so not it.

And sure enough it didn't work and yeah like had zero impact.

Probably went the other way.

So no just yeah it was just a hope.

Yeah. Unlike many other things in this episode we will not link to her practice in the show notes.

I couldn't even tell you who it was anymore, No it's um, um, sexuality dysphoria is what they treat for.

No, sorry. Sexuality dysmorphia or dysphoria.

Either way, like, it's where you like, yeah, they, they try to claim that you, you don't really believe like your real sexuality and we'll hypnotize you out of it into the right one.

Oh that's sad, that's sad.

That's awful. Yeah.

How, you said it got really dark for you.

Do you have a memory of where it feels like to you at its low point?

Was there a time? Yeah.

The darkness sort of came a little later in my life, kind of around COVID time.

I can't remember how old I was, maybe 23 or something.

And maybe 24. And I was playing in the US and had played in the US for a pretty long time now.

Like I was pretty used to the US.

Was it college? It was college and I came back for a year and then I went back over to the states to do G League and NBA stuff.

And I did have a girlfriend at the time actually and she's also gay now, which is fascinating, but we were obviously just leaning on each other and not knowing it.

Gosh, that's fascinating.

Very fascinating. Yeah.

And we're still very close.

She's married to, she got married to her wife a few months ago.

So I came home, I sort of said to her like I've got to just come home, like I don't know what's happening with Covid.

And it was sort of my like excuse to kind of get out of the situation because I was obviously not like, I didn't, I just knew it wasn't feeling sort of right.

I didn't know how to approach it all.

And this yeah, this like perfect sort of have to go home and like separate, sort of thing came along, And so I did.

And then I eventually signed with Adelaide during the COVID period, and went down to Adelaide to quarantine.

You had to quarantine for 14 days when you moved states and stuff back then.

Everything stopped.

Basketball stopped.

I really had to figure out like what was going on.

And it was still so negative.

Like I could not see a positive.

I'd never seen a positive influence like a gay person in my life.

I didn't know anyone like, really, that was gay or positive, specifically, you know, like, I'd never seen it be positive.

And basketball's like quite a homophobic space.

So you hear a lot of negative talk and you start to, you know, believe and talk all the same.

That sort of that self homophobia again.

This was even in 2020.

Yeah, yeah. And even now, would you say?

I think it's getting a lot better.

and people are very understanding of my situation yeah yeah so like yeah literally it it teams I'm on anyway it's it's a lot like it's it's a lot better I guess yeah because of me and that's great but yeah as a whole culturally basketball's are pretty homophobic mmm just the slang and the slurring and the the terms like it's yeah it just has that that culture unfortunately that with that we're trying to change and then I just went down this horrible spiral of well there's no way I can be gay like in a busball environment so like what's the point of living?

That was my first sort of thought which is you know dark and wild that that's my first thought but it just felt like that intense like I can't do my job I can't date because how do I like date anyone being a professional athlete like that most people sort of know of and therefore if I can't date then I'm just gonna be lonely my whole life like what's the point of that, and you just go down this horrible dark spiral to a point where it got to suicide and I planned my attempt and, and wrote all my letters.

And, um, yeah, I'd written my mom a like a song to come out to her, to try to come out to her, which is released.

It's called Be Alright.

And it's one of my favorite songs I'd ever written.

And I just played it all night and cried and cried and cried.

And eventually like sort of went to in my room and it had all my things ready to go.

And I think my body just took over.

Like the shock and my whole body just took over.

I think, and I woke up the next day and it was just shit everywhere.

I don't remember what happened, and yeah.

Isn't your body just sort of shut down.

I think it just shut down and I went to sleep, yeah.

Yeah, and what did that feel like waking up?

And yeah, waking up, it was like, Holy shit.

Like, what? What happened?

Like, did I go through with what I was planning?

Like, did nothing happen?

Like, I don't know.

Cause it was chaos of shit everywhere.

And then I immediately thought, okay, well, what's going to happen here.

Like, do I, I don't know why I'm like my nephew at the time.

He's still my nephew, sorry.

But at the time my nephew just crossed my mind and he's very unique as well and very, very me like how I was a kid.

And I just thought like, ah, I don't think I wanna be that memory of an uncle, especially if I could maybe figure this out and then help him as well, or just be there anyway, like even if he doesn't need my help or whatever, you know.

And then looking at the letters and I'm just like, ah, it just all sort of hit me and my mind changed.

And a lot of us in the mental health space who hear experiences like that, and people's attempt experiences often say there was that one thing, whether it was a nephew or a son or something that kind of kickstart you out of that mindset and you start thinking differently.

And so that was that for me.

And I immediately went and got a therapist and said I was gay out loud for the first time in my life to the therapist. How did that feel?

Yeah, crazy. So how old were you?

Very weird. All that same times, I would have been 23 or 24 yeah and I was battling injuries as well at the time so like I didn't have basketball, I didn't have anything, like it was just all crumbling it felt like.

So you say it out loud that's quite significant say it out loud for the first time to your therapist then I know the times I've had therapy and something significance happened in the session I've never had anything of that significance but you you feel so hopefully you were the therapist that you feel so safe and protected by and you feel like it's a sort of safe space that you feel safe enough to say this thing but then you walk out and you're like back in the real world and you've now like had this experience what does what does that feel like um I think I just from saying it out loud to her,

the therapist, it sort of kick -started a bit of a mentality of, like maybe it's time I tell my mom, or like I've said it now, like maybe I can like start sort of figuring out how this all looks.

And I don't remember, like walking out and feeling any certain type of way, but I definitely remember - Singing Sondheim.

Yeah. I definitely remember, you know, it was a really good first step to, towards where I ended up being, and understanding the importance of coming out and sharing that with people and having those moments.

Yeah. I'd just never done it.

So, you know, when you do something for the first time, it kind of gets like easier and easier, I guess.

But yeah, it was, yeah, it definitely kick -started a much more positive mentality, for sure.

And did you then tell your mum?

Yeah, I did. And in probably not the best circumstances, but, like, I had a partner at the time who was...

Yeah, that's a whole other story.

But it was absolutely ruining me.

And it was all secret.

So you had a partner, a male partner?

It's a And that was directly after my suicide attempt.

It was a really toxic, awful environment.

So things happen where I sort of needed my mum and I just thought like, I just can't do all this on my own anymore.

And just it was my sister's wedding and I just pulled my mum aside and explained everything, like the suicidal thoughts, the attempt or the intention to attempt that night, partner, like all of this crazy, crazy shit that was going on.

I mean that's competitive siblings, to tell her on her sister's wedding day.

I just was never around.

So like, you know, that's the only time I would often see my mum is when we were all together for someone else's things.

And how did she respond?

Yeah, all good. Like, great, great response.

She's very she's a lot more educated now on and on all of that stuff and there's not like a right or wrong way to react but there kind of is as well so like gay people hate the how we knew like that sucks you know like um so we've just been going through all this turmoil and you've just known this whole time like that sucks.

And it's one thing to know and have your clings and stuff, but just keep to yourself.

Like, you know, let us have our moment and share what's going on.

That makes so much sense.

Yeah. So, yeah, I think she just, she just was supportive.

And I think because there was it was multilayered, the conversation, it wasn't just me coming out.

It was like a lot going on there and she really held on to the suicide part, obviously.

It was a very good moment for our relationship and you know now she's she she's like I referred her a book Velvet Rage it's called and it's an unreal book for people who are trying to figure out their sexuality as well as like parents who have maybe kids and you're trying to figure out that role in it all as well and it just teaches you a lot about the wounds and how we talk it like closeted people we talk ourselves into all these crazy like scenarios and stuff in our brain that aren't real and it helped her understand a lot of why I was going through I was going through and stuff I will definitely

put a link to that book in the show notes it sounds yeah it's a great book yeah yeah I just I just can't imagine what like obviously that's I guess that's quite a delayed process but I, to hold all that, I guess shame and pain by yourself for so long, I can't imagine what that feels like to, to start to share it or to say.

Yeah, it was crazy.

My coming out journey was very, very interesting.

I, due to my injuries, I'd come out to a few people.

And then due to my injuries, I had to walk away from basketball and I didn't know if I'd ever play again.

And I was sent to LA to rehab, and I wanted to just not be Isaac Humphries for like a solid amount of time, and try to figure this all out, and.

When you say Isaac Humphries, you mean like the professional basketballer?

Yeah, just, yeah, the basketballer that, you know, people see being all aggressive and all this stuff on, and the pressures of just what that means to people.

I feel like the audience or the crowd had this better idea of who I was than, than I did.

So I wanted to figure out who that was.

And yeah, I moved to LA for about five months and rehabbed, but also didn't tell anyone who I was like just set up, told everyone my name was Isaac.

I genuinely told people I don't believe in last names the same way Mariah Carey doesn't believe in birthdays.

And they were all just like, okay.

You're like, L A is a place that would accept that.

They just could care less.

They were like, let's go out.

Very L A or very biblical.

Yeah, I just said like, I'm here writing music, which I was as well, you know.

And yeah, and was like immediately gay to all of them.

Like just, I'm gay like straight away.

Just didn't even - tried to just not even flinch, you know, and, and it just became this awesome world that I had no idea about and West Hollywood, obviously, the gayest place on Earth.

It was awesome though.

Like I loved it. But, I'm so interested to know how that felt because it must, to be almost like openly gay in public without it being a big deal to the people around you.

How did that feel? First time ever that I'd even experienced anything like that before.

And it was liberating.

Like it was a, I don't actually have words, honestly.

It was just this feeling of like, you get up, you can wear whatever you have always wanted to wear and not worry.

You can do whatever you always wanted to do and not care.

No one will care. And that was the best part.

And I went to gay bars for the first time.

The happy? Yeah, the happy.

That was my first gay bar.

Ironically, I am now best friends with the owner and live with him in LA.

That's where I live when I go over there.

And I shared that story with him.

When I first landed in LA, I was taken to the abbey and it just opened my eyes to so much. And that's how we bonded for the first time we met and have become incredible friends, from there.

But yeah, my little social experiment like it.

Over that time, I was just able to figure out a lot about myself and I came home and I periodically came out to all my friends and my family.

And I had this new courage that I'd never, ever felt before.

In that period of time, I also decided that I'd come out publicly as well.

Because I was getting back to basketball and I was just, it looked like I was going to sign with mobile United and I was going to be on a team.

But then I thought, how am I supposed to go from all of this amazing, colorful, joyous world to back to a basketball locker room where I've got to lie and pretend again like I don't want to do that you know I've done way too gone way too far forward to take a backward step and just keep lying again like I don't want to do that you mentioned during that awful night at your darkest point the song that you'd written to your mom in which you would come out had you given much thought to what would actually happen when you did it or if you did it at that point?

Um, I just didn't know how, I didn't know how to, to tell my mom.

Not because I was worried about her reaction.

Like I knew she was going to be supportive.

She always has been and always will.

So it was more my, my mentality, like I was, I didn't want it to be real.

I didn't want it to be in, and as soon as you tell your mom something right, like it's real, like the water works, you're fine, you're fine, you're fine.

And then as soon as you tell your mom you're a blubbering mess sort of thing.

Same concept, like, I didn't want it to be real, I didn't want it to be anything.

So I wrote this song and it's called Be All Right.

And it's essentially me just telling her like, something's going on, my head is crazy.

Like just tell me everything's gonna be all right.

And sometimes you just need someone to tell you it's all gonna be all right.

For me it was my mum and that's all I needed like in the moment, all I needed was once I told her I knew that, I knew that if I was to ever tell her, I have made a lot of ground.

So all I would need in that moment is just, everything's going to be all right, I love you.

There's lyrics like, you know, will you still love me just the same as yesterday?

Like, this just crazy concept of like, one conversation can just change so much in a relationship.

You know, will she look at me the same as she did yesterday.

Love Me the Same, all that stuff.

And they were all questions.

Natural questions. But yeah no it was really just a way I could express to her how I was feeling that maybe I couldn't like just conversationally.

Yeah. And she handled it awesome.

Before you said that you'd never actually said it out loud that you were gay, had you had experiences with other men before then and if so was there obviously not asking to explain that go into the details of what happened but more about That's nice of you Josh.

Obviously don't have to say like who or how long or you know?

That's not the important stuff.

What I am curious to know is that how does it feel for you afterwards from an emotional point of view in a sense of sort of shame or being able to feel good about being with Ben or… Yeah, I don't know if I have like memories like that.

I definitely, um, like, of course, yes, I had experimented with men before coming out, um, in that session and, um, yeah, like, absolutely have had, had understood that world a little bit.

Um, for sure. Uh, I remember it, it just feeling more correct.

Like, it just felt, um, probably how I was wanting it to feel with the girl, and like I was forcing that agenda so much in my mind that I do remember just feeling so, it just all sort of just made a lot more sense.

Like it, I don't know, it's hard to explain, like it didn't feel like wrong.

And that means, and I don't think there was a shame element to But for me, straightaway, I think it was just, wow, this is so different to what I am used to, like with the girl sort of thing.

And understanding that this probably feels a little bit like a lot more right, sort of thing.

I think perhaps, sorry if the shame thing came across wrong.

Oh, no, it's a very common. Like, absolutely very common. And growing up like the shame was there.

Absolutely. But I think just more towards that time where I was really trying to figure it out Yeah, I don't think there was that shame element after like situations like that.

Yeah. Yeah, it's Must must be can maybe can is confusing to for something to feel right, but not Not be able to share that yeah Yeah and and Yes, but as right as it felt like it's still so wrong like in my in my mind too though Like, it was such a confusing, such a confusing thing to, to even comprehend.

Like, I don't know.

It's, it was very, very confusing.

Is there, is there, this is, I want to be really sensitive and ask this.

And if I, and if this is like an insensitive thing to ask or the wrong thing to ask, please tell me.

Um, but was there a part of you in dealing with that, you know, the right but wrong confusion, is there ever a part of you that maybe hoped that it didn't feel right?

Yeah, probably to make it all a lot easier.

But again at that point it was very obvious.

In my mind anyway, like what was going on.

It was just more about understanding it a lot more and if I had woken up one day and that didn't feel right anymore and being with girls was Where my brain was landing and oh my god, like I think I would have run to the hills and sung from the treetops.

Like, truly, like, just there was a total period where like, I would literally rather take my life than be gay.

That's just, that's where we were at.

So yeah, like, of course there were times where I, you know, didn't want that to feel that way.

But I just knew it.

and it didn't change it, unfortunately.

It just became harder.

Yeah, I'm also kind of struck by the two moments in your life.

Maybe there are more, but this, when you're a child and you went to Canada and seems like people started accepting you for who you were, and then you were faced with this awful come down, coming back to Australia, out.

Um, and then you go away to LA for five months and people have never accepted you better for who you are on the inside.

Now that was there a real fear coming back of like, fuck, is this all going to come crashing down to earth when I come back again?

Back to Australia? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, of course there was questions like that and, um, of course.

Yes. But I think I was just so overwhelmingly happy about it all.

Yeah. I guess when you've been so low to not even want to exist anymore, and you finally don't think that way, and you're just so happy with who you are, finally, anyone else's opinion actually doesn't matter.

And I think I just got to that point where I'm like, whatever, they're all going to say things that I've probably said to myself anyway.

There's nothing that they're going to think that I haven't thought about myself.

Just, you know, if they're going to, let them.

So you make the decision, you're going to tell the team mates, and at the same time, that is going public because it was recorded and put out into the world.

Did you need to tell someone at the club first to let them know this is what you're gonna do?

Or did you just say, I need to say something?

Yep, so we had about, for about six months my management and I planned this announcement because we wanted to do it right and we wanted to make the most impact as we could.

Wow, that's amazing to think about it in those terms. And I was put on house arrest pretty much for months.

I wasn't allowed to go out, I couldn't see guys, I couldn't do anything in case it sort of leaked around Melbourne or whatever.

Oh, wow. So you wanted to do this on your terms, basically.

Yeah. Of course. Yeah.

To create my own story.

Like, I didn't ... and that's the other thing with coming out or being closeted is the coming out process is so much about also, like, imagine if you were outed by like the newspaper or something.

Taking your power and just owning it was a really big part of my decision as well.

Multilayered obviously, but that was yeah, so yeah, we planned this whole thing.

And I was able to tell my coach the week before or a few days Prior the CEO of the club just so that people knew and we could organize the camera crew and like all that stuff because the announcement I didn't want to do a piece to camera or was it was that Nick Trilson back there yeah it's still there a friend of mine and one real one amazing human being and Dean Bickerman had coach like one of the first times I've had a coach just be so respectful or if you didn't understand, like wanted to understand and willing to go through all of this with me.

It was it was unbelievable and couldn't ask for a more like a better situation to be in for this sort of thing.

Did the knowledge of how great they were as people weigh into it, or was it just like I'm doing it and hopefully these people are good about this.

I had that mentality, yes.

I was going to do it anyway.

But it just made it so much nicer and so much more enjoyable and I never felt like it was a burden.

Because at one point, the whole globe was looking at this, like at Melbourne United.

And we had a lot of eyes on, on the club and yeah, he never made me feel like it was like a burden or distraction or anything like that.

He just... So he said, go for it.

We support you. Absolutely.

We support you. I don't think anyone understood the magnitude really.

like, how do you know, you know.

Until we're in it. But yeah, so they knew and then I filmed it, I wanted to bring people into the room and show how difficult it can be having the coming out conversation and especially in front of your team mates, which not many people have ever done.

So like when you think about it.

So yeah, putting people in that room and in that space and showing emotion and it was a very hard conversation.

But how nervous were you that day, leading up to it and knowing it was gonna happen?

Yeah, probably the hardest conversation like I've ever had in my life, like, easily.

I so desperately hope that other people will feel inspired by you to tell the people that are in their world, you know, when you look at you and the changes made to your life doing this.

So did the players, were the players just all, you know, that you'd like to say something Just, yeah, there was a team meeting, because we're in our meeting room and that's not uncommon, we would always have team meetings.

It wasn't until I was sort of sitting at the front and everyone was piling in that they were like, guys, what's going on, man, like, you know, what's happening?

And yeah, then that's when I sort of just started to talk and share with them what was going on.

And again, very multi -layered like I wanted them to know the back story of it.

I wanted them to understand why I was doing it and for what reasons, and who I wanted to impact and how we can all sort of look at ourselves as athletes and try to make impact for others, you know?

There were points other than just telling them I was gay that I wanted to get out and be an example for everyone in the room to sort of take on board and maybe see what land they can find and that sort of thing.

So you see a look in their eyes as you were talking that I'm sure you're looking for cues of accepting this as this landing with them.

Do you remember the looks on their faces as you were saying this?

I don't remember their looks.

I remember like when people would not, I'd sort of gravitate more towards them just for comfort.

There were people in the room I was nervous about for sure and very prepared for whatever sort of came after that.

But a really, really nice story of that day is Nick had made all of these rainbow M...

Nick the CEO. Yeah Nick the CEO. They had made these shirts like a rainbow Melbourne United logo and wanted everyone to take a photo after in the shirts.

And I vetoed it. I said, no, like, we're not sure how this is going to go down.

This is not what it's about.

Like, I don't, I don't want to do all of that.

So I said no. And we landed on just a couple owners having a photo and the captain Chris Gordon and our coach and stuff.

And someone had sort of caught wind one of the players that there were shirts going around.

And as I was sort of so overwhelmed with what was going on, I just watched every single player, come in one by one and take a shirt and put it on without even like me saying anything.

And it became a part of our Shirt rotation.

Like, you know, we have our gear and we have to wear it every day.

So um... There'd always be someone in a rainbow M.

Like, throughout the week.

And it was just awesome.

What does that do for you?

Like, having just, like, I imagine like a huge thing that you're anticipating.

Not sure what it's how it's gonna land.

How does that make you feel in the day's weeks following?

Yeah, it was, it was a lot to process.

It was, I was very emotional, and I felt very, very comfortable after all of that.

Even as the weeks went on, I had, players asked me so like, are you dating anyone?

Like, what's all this about?

You know, like… No one, I was not that person anyone would ask about their personal life.

It just, I was not that guy.

You know, I was very private and kept it all separate for that reason.

So just things like that.

Like we all just, it just became the normality of it all.

Just became, yeah, just great to be a part of and yeah it made me feel very, very good and very welcome and very comfortable and appreciative.

Did it and, cause this is like, like that is like Olympic level vulnerability, you know, to do that, it's up there.

Did you, and we talk about this all the time on the podcast, one of the biggest themes of the podcast is, you know, vulnerability leading to a greater connection with people.

Did it, did it affect your relationships with people in the club?

Only positively. Yeah.

Like, we all got closer.

A lot of people said, you know, a lot of things kind of makes sense now like as to why I was so isolated and so quiet and, you know, maybe we can see a little bit more of us sort of thing.

And naturally, I came out of my shell and no pun intended, I guess, but came out of my shell and started just to tell you the truth.

I didn't know who I was as a gay man in a basketball environment.

So I'm learning it all too.

I don't know how far I was able to, what I was able to talk about or not, or I don't know yet.

Like it was all learning so especially that year anyway.

I mean the fascinating thing about it which I won't I'll let you talk about it but how this affected your playing and how it affected your actual game.

Yeah it did us straight away I don't think my game changed straight away but then I went back to Adelaide and had you know one of the best years of my career and won MVP P for Adelaide in club award and still play some of the best basketball that I ever have. And I, we're talking music as well like I perform better than I ever have as well.

I just don't I don't have this lens that I that I'm so nervous about.

And I don't actually care like what.

Of course I care what people think that's like any human does.

I can't pretend that I don't, you know, have thoughts about that.

But like, I don't I don't care if people think I'm like gay.

Like because I am. So whatever.

So correct. Yeah. Like, well done.

Congrats. Yeah. Really changes the T's.

Doesn't it? You're gay.

Yes. Yeah. So yeah, it's definitely just being, being so comfortable, like absolutely has helped a lot.

Yeah. And people just knowing who I am finally.

Some of my best friends in the world.

I had no idea who I was.

Gosh. It's really beautiful how from that moment of incredible darkness, the small glimmer of hope was linked to, I guess a sense of purpose.

Like that you could do something for someone else, for your nephew.

And it That seems like a narrative of purpose is driving you still, does that resonate with you?

Yeah, for sure. You know, as much as coming out was for myself, like to start living a new life and have a whole new lease on everything.

It was just so focused on others, like almost the whole time until people had to say like, you know, this is about, like you as well, right?

Like you get to have a life as well now after this.

But yeah, a lot of the things I do, I do to influence and help others for sure.

It's a very big passion of mine to share what I've learned, to help other people, maybe going through similar situations or know someone that's going through similar situations.

I feel like I've lived a lot of lives in my 27 years and have learned a lot of lessons.

And whether it's through lyrics to my songs or stories I tell on stage or things I can share, in settings like this, I always want it to somehow link to helping others.

You're saying you don't know what it was going to be like to be a gay man in a professional basketball because there's basically, I think, I think only ever been one professionally before you.

And Hugh read out that incredible stat before in the bio about, you listed about 15 sports where there are, I think, three gay men across them, it must feel part of that purpose, being able to show and give an example to men across sports because there must be so many men who are in so much pain.

A lot of people living silently in the closet and don't know how to maybe approach that their environment might not be conducive to them coming out.

And not just players like coaches and refs and front office staff.

It's not the easiest environment for all of us, you know everyone.

It's not just players.

Locker rooms are really full -on, you know, and sport is full -on.

And I was just about to say I could only imagine.

And but like, I literally know exactly how that, I know exactly how it feels.

But it is hard, it's very, very hard to navigate, especially if you're not okay with it yourself.

It's a hard thing to wrap your head around yourself, before it is to share with anyone anyway.

so it's just added added pressures and added layers that straight people don't sort of have to deal with but then also non -athletic gay people, like non professional athlete gay people don't have to deal with some things that I have, like every situation is so different.

And yeah, no story's the same and, but the common theme is it is hard and it's difficult, and environments should be a lot nicer to be a self -in, I guess.

In the video you did exactly what you said before in so beautifully explaining to your teammates the cost of not being able to be yourself, and I thought it was such a powerful way of framing it leading with the cost and the pain that you'd gone through and how things are gotten purely because you couldn't be who you are openly.

I thought it was just beautiful and so well -done.

Thanks, yeah. So you spoke earlier on the conversation around the issues I guess you had with your body and the way you looked and the problems that caused you.

I'm religious to know what your body image is like now.

I guess it's complicated because your body has led you to be in this incredible position.

Do you feel grateful for the way you are, the way you look now?

Yeah, I think now I do for sure.

It's taken me a long time to get, to get there.

Um, I, you know, it was, I was a very self -conscious kid like, and, and those scars have, they will stay with me.

And I'm not like that guy that runs around with his shirt off.

Like, that's just not my thing.

Or just, yeah, and that is definitely from all of that just trauma from being harassed for just simply trying to be me sort of thing physically but then but then I think like I just was on the cover of men's health and had my shirt sort of up and my body showing and I don't really I found that really fun and you know I I didn't mind that.

So yeah, it's just a growth.

I think those scars come back a little bit every now and then for sure.

Especially in like an athlete environment.

Like we're all big strong guys.

It's just what it is.

And yeah you can't help you.

Like you fixate. You fixate on your diet you fixate on your training plan.

You fixate on all that and that might be a coping like mechanism to control like everything so that you know people can't laugh at you or something I don't know but yeah there's probably it's probably a little bit there to unpack a little bit more to be honest. Yeah absolutely makes sense.

Makes sense but it's also that's a pretty incredible journey to go from being physically abused and and I'm sure the non -physical abuse was the worst part to you not just being on the cover of Men's Health, but saying it was fun and it's all right.

Yeah. That's a… it's remarkable.

It was. Yeah. And it's not lost on me either.

Like I fully am aware of it and very proud of, you know, where I've come for sure.

Yeah. In many ways.

I remember when I saw the video for the first time when it got released and so powerful and it felt to me like well my assumption was hopefully now this will give all the game in NBL, NBA, AFL, NRL, every league sport.

It will now give an example and they won't be the pioneer now you know so to speak like they will be, they're doing what is already been done so maybe it won't feels and of course there's lots as you sort of alluded to before there's lots of reasons why someone might not feel safe to come out of the closet.

But have there been men that have contacted you or reached out who are closeted because they saw you come out like you did?

No. Not a single one.

Wow. Yeah. That really surprises me.

Me too. Yeah. Yeah.

Not a single one. Well, I mean, I think that just speaks to how scared they must be.

I agree and an association with me is one step closer to, you know, being found out.

So, I get it, for sure.

But yeah, no, not a single other player in any code that we would recognise anyway.

What would you say to them?

For them, I don't want to reach out to you personally but I might be listening to this right now.

Yeah, this space is hard to give advice in because, you know, it's so different for everybody.

but what I would say is the feeling that you get from just finally doing it and living and just having that euphoric new sense of life is an incredible feeling and I wouldn't I would encourage anyone who can have access to that feeling to to try to take that on, because yes, it's very dark and it can be very dark, but it can be so bright as well and can be so happy and so fun as well.

And it's just sometimes about getting past those hurdles, which can be massive and they can be small depending on the situation.

But I would just love for someone else to feel that incredible feeling that I got after I was able to come out.

Thank you, Matt, that's really beautiful.

One of the things I am curious in, and it may be something you don't wanna talk about, but I'm often fascinated with the relationship in some of your situation with their dad, if you haven't mentioned your dad at all.

Yeah, yeah, my dad and I, we have an interesting relationship.

It's complicated, I guess.

Yeah, so I sang this song in my show last year called Boys in the Street.

And I shared a little bit about my dad and I's experience together and just the relationship we have. And there's this there's lyrics in the song.

And basically the idea behind the song is like, what am I?

What am I going to tell when my friends like tell me that my son's kissing boys like in the street?

You know, like, we did all this for you.

We did all this for paid for your school, paid for this.

What am I going to say when you're kissing boys in the street?

That's not necessarily the dynamic that my dad and I have. But I just think the importance of a father in someone's life, particularly a young, sort of, like a young closeted gay kid's life is absolutely like, you just can't really compare it to anything that's so valuable.

and when you sort of don't get that, it just creates a lot of things to sort of unpack and understand as you grow up.

For anyone of course, but then just add the layer of...

it's like the layer of your dad is supposed to be the first man you ever love.

Your mum is the first woman, dad is the first man you ever love.

And then as gay people we grow into love more men, and fall in love and get to know all these things.

But if you don't have that representation of love, like it in the first instance, then how are you supposed to understand, like what it all is?

Yeah. So, yeah, that's kind of where that's at. But what I will say is, is he's a great grandpa to my nephews.

He has stepped up a lot in his sort of role there.

And that's great to see.

So, yeah. Yeah. I think you are one of those people who you will never probably understand or know how many lives you've changed or even how many lives you've saved.

I don't think you'll ever probably know that.

But you are doing that every day by being yourself and it is clear that so much pain and hard work and love and connection has gone into getting you to this point in your life where you are saving and changing lives and I just I just wanted to say that that's not a question I just I am I'm so in awe of you we all are so in awe of you and I feel like I want to when my kids are asleep put this interview in their room so subliminally they turn out to be as authentic and courageous and as beautiful as you are.

Thanks. I don't know about you guys, it just feels like one of those conversations.

It is such a privilege to talk to you.

Absolutely. And me as well, something that happened very recently in my life is you know a little bit separate from what's going on but directly aligned.

I was diagnosed with adult ADHD and I was referred to your podcast about that and And listen to that and it helped me literally, maybe a couple weeks ago, like I was listening to that.

And it helped me so much, like understand what was going on.

And I didn't want to research too much and hinder my view on anything until I knew what was going on.

But my doctor immediately recommended that episode.

And I just couldn't believe that I was invited to come here and, you know, have that impact that that conversation had on me.

maybe this conversation can impact someone like it did me sort of thing so very grateful to be here, like just done real.

It absolutely will I mean as we as we know like podcasts are a really special unique thing that people can listen to in private and they can it like it's their own yeah little thing and I wouldn't be surprised if most of the men who haven't reached out to you will listen to this because it's like, what a model, what a great model to go like, wow.

Because we are and everyone that's listening is so in awe of you.

It just cannot be undersold as to how significant it is what you've done, not just today, significant keep coming on The Imperfect that's pretty cool.

But yeah, what you've done in your life already is so significant, like what a legacy already.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Amazing. And and I just feel like we should just say to all the men listening right now who who see themselves in that dark place that you're in we're thinking of you and and from what Isaac has explained, it sounds like it's a very heavy experience, but hopefully this has given you some light or some hope.

So, yeah, Isaac, you're amazing.

Thank you guys. Good way to finish.

What a hero. Genuinely, like, it's amazing what he's done.

It is. Even though, obviously, as we know, and we've said, you know, it shouldn't be amazing, but it, because of the context and the, the environment and everything we know as, as it is what it is.

It's like, it is amazing.

Yeah. What I wanted to talk about, and we do this with all the episodes where we have an interview where we interview a guest like this is we just take, we just discuss a small part from it.

And I think the thing that I wanted to talk about today in chatting with Bell, our assistant producer, about the episode.

One One of the commonalities between ...

I just saw a little bit of, this is a man who hung onto, I guess, a secret, a secret link to his identity for a very, very, very long time, and then eventually spoke about it.

And I kind of very, very different, vastly different situations, experiences.

But I for the last three years have been keeping a part of my identity just completely a secret for very different reasons in that of essentially it was like a carer for a neurodivergent child or am a carer for a neurodivergent child.

In talking about experience of sharing something that was hidden, I could really relate to the feeling of sharing something that's been hidden for a long time.

Again, completely different situations, and I'm not comparing them at all.

But the fact is, we were both sharing something around our identity for the And it was, and I kind of wanted to, I think I wanted to talk about it from the point of view of encouraging anyone who's listening to that, to Isaac's story and thinking, there is something about my identity that I would so love to share with the world, but I haven't had the courage or I just don't know when the right time is.

Um, I, I just wanted to talk about what I went through, but then also what Isaac's experience has been as well, because for both of us, very different things again, just an incredibly positive experience.

I was writing notes down about it last night, and I kind of broke it into five different categories.

The first bit was all like the not steps, but just the different situations you kind of roll through in the process.

And I had them, I wrote them down as the weight of secrecy was the first one.

And then the second thing was why we keep things hidden.

And the third one was the moment of telling, and then the fourth one was what happens afterwards.

And the fifth one was a reminder of just refarming vulnerability or strength.

So just, and they're just very quick talking points on all of them, but the first sort of phase that you will feel the weight of a secret is holding onto a truth, especially one tied to your identity is emotionally exhausting.

Again, for I can't even begin to compare but I know for Ozak from what he spoke about, Like the stress and exhaustion from turning up to training day in day out and having to ask someone that he wasn't, it would just be so unbelievable.

It would be tiring, um, for many different, I just found it emotionally exhausting for different reasons in that I would turn up to places so far from my best and so far from being, I just wasn't switched on at all, but unable to share why and unable to talk about why that is what I found really exhausting.

And I think so often in both situations, I'm sure Isaac would say this I don't want to speak on behalf of him.

But so often, you carry the fear of judgment or misunderstanding, which amplifies the burden a bit that you're carrying because you're so worried that people will.

If we were out in public with our child and it was a meltdown, that was my biggest fear was judgment for that child and for us and for our family.

So yeah, it is emotionally exhausting.

And I think anyone out there who's hanging on to a secret right now about identity would identify with that.

It is so tiring and you can feel it physically in your body.

You actually feel it like the tension throughout your body is always there and it's exhausting.

And, you know, to state the obvious, it's like, of course, like you and Isaac both have these big public platforms that you decided to share this.

you know, obviously people in your life knew it, but, by sharing, but not everyone listening obviously, is going to have like a big public platform that they'll even be required to share with or, and it might, it could just be a couple of people or your family or that would be just as challenging.

Yeah. I mean, this is the point of this.

It's not to say go and find a format or a forum where you can say it to lots of people.

It's like... Get yourself a podcast, build it for six years, then once you've got an audience, then share.

Play NBA basketball, get to the top level and play for United.

And so, yeah, again, this is we're really talking about unburdening yourself from that secret identity with a loved one, someone that you trust. The second thing I just thought was worth acknowledging is why people keep things, there's a reason for it.

It's not just like, well, I'm not brave enough and I'm not going to do it or there's often a reason for it.

For Risac, again, from the conversation, we just had the fear of stigma of being seen differently, I think, especially where he grew up at such a young age, that fear of being different would have been just crippling.

And for me, it was, and for my family, we didn't totally understand what was going on.

And also, to protect someone else's identity while we were working out how we would tell them and involve them and have them understand it.

So that's why for three and a bit years, we didn't really say anything.

So that's, people will have their reasons and I think people should, if they're going, yeah, why haven't I been brave enough to do it?

I think have compassion for yourself and that there's a reason.

If you think about it, there is a reason that you haven't felt safe doing it and maybe you don't yet, and that's totally fine.

The next thing was the moment of telling that, the moment of actually saying it, and I think it goes without saying really, but it's just the most incredible sense of release.

Like for me, it was very hard to do and I was very nervous and very tense, but as I was doing it, I could just feel years worth of tension sort of being released or years worth of almost pain, sort of, I just felt it sort of lifting from me.

There was a lightness, and again, I mean, Isaac said a similar thing as it was just the most amazing experience for him.

Like the moment of telling, when he sat down in front, very hard to do, like such a hard thing to do.

I'm not comparing to his situation because I don't know how he did that.

Sitting in front of a whole team full of very manly men from varying cultures.

Yeah, just amazing.

I guess it kind of like we sort of said in the chat.

It just sort of probably speaks to how much he did trust the club and the teammates and that they had they obviously did have a culture where he felt like he could do it and And he would be accepted.

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

I think that's a really interesting point on that one that telling I totally understand what you're saying.

But I also think of how important it is to be telling people that genuinely have your best interests at heart.

Yep. And really care about you, your well -being and really love you for who you are because I imagine that there could be challenging situations where people don't respond in the way that you might want them too.

Um, so. Yeah. That's a really complex one, but just to acknowledge that, that for some people that that might be really hard to find those people.

Yeah. Yeah. So it, it occurred to me and, and I'm, I'm not trying to be like kind of joking when I say this, but you know, you hear so much in sporting clubs about how, you know, about culture, like it's such a buzzword and businesses as well.

Like, you know how important culture is, and like building good culture.

And I guess the reason is so people feel safe and, And they can talk about things or they feel comfortable to bring things up and just generally be good people have a good culture.

But you never hear about it and probably for a good reason, but you never hear about it in families.

But like, there's something interesting about thinking about like...

The culture of your family.

...building a good culture in your family.

Because I guess like some families don't have a good culture, but it's just it's not thought about obviously, because it is very different than a sports club or a business.

But in some ways it's kind of not and it's so sad that there are so many families where someone who is gay doesn't feel like… they don't feel safe to bring something up even in their own family.

And it just made me think, like, is there a case for building good culture in families?

That's really good.

Take my family to a PD.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. On leadership.

On leadership and culture.

It's not a terrible idea.

Change management in the family.

And then we're going to go paintballing.

Now from now on everyone, we're all wearing lanyards.

Trust exercise is falling backwards.

There's a swipe card to get into the house, sign in.

Those are our values on the wall?

Barbara, your secretary in the front.

Any visitors, let us know.

Culture starts at the door.

Culture starts at the door, exactly.

It's a sign saying no dickheads above the door.

No dickhead policy.

Anyway. So the next thing… the next phase I had was just what happens afterwards and this is… this has been one of the most profound things to happen in my life but first of all there's the deep sense of relief and there's the lightness and the freedom that comes straight afterwards, but the main thing is the new connections that open up all over the place with people reaching out.

I mean, it's different here, like what you had noticed before, Ryan, with a lot of people hearing my story and I was actually a lot of people got in touch to say, they felt the same, they're going through the same thing and just felt huge solidarity through that.

I mean, a lot of people stopped me on the street to say that they're going through the same thing and had really great conversations.

I think when I say new connections there I mean, if you find someone that you love in your family or friend to tell, it will deepen your connection with them, it will enrich your connection with them, it will change the friendship in an incredible way.

So yeah that's kind of like, it was a bit different for our situation but I think for anyone out there, that's what you can look forward to.

It's almost like letting go of, it's a little bit of letting go of control of the narrative you want out there about yourself and not necessarily that you want out there, but you feel safe.

The narrative of the identity that you feel safe with.

And so, like it's kind of scary letting that go and being your true self because you'll, it's like you can't control it anymore.

It's like you're on the other side of that.

Yeah. But you also don't yet know what connections are out there.

Yeah. It's like, it's one thing to know someone, but then it's like another thing to really know someone.

Like it's chalk and cheese really.

Yeah. The other thing is the unexpected kindness and solidarity that comes from, just had so many incredibly nice and kind things happen since doing that.

And again, from strangers, friends, in the community, whatever it is, but I think that's another thing you'd look forward to just from the people you tell, the kindness that would come your way.

It's like, when you, I think I've said this many times before, but when you put your hand up to say, in a different situation that you are not coping, you're sort of sending a message message to the world that I can't do this on my own and people around you step up because they receive the message and they want to help you through it.

The aftermath is really special in my experience.

And the last thing I've got here is just, I mean, it's the whole point of this podcast, but it's like a reminder to reframe vulnerability as a strength and not a weakness.

And what we say so often in this podcast is that vulnerability leads to authentic connection.

That's the strength of it.

Like that is the connection is, the more I just look at that, like, it's everything, like authentic connection is everything.

That's what we're here for.

And vulnerability is this incredible doorway towards connection.

And it's strange that I was reminded on my own podcast about that, but that's what this experience has done for me.

And hearing Isaac talk so beautifully about the people in his life that have stepped up for him and stories of teammates or the CEO, Nick, or whoever it was who just has really stepped up to those connections he has with those people are so much richer because he is lucky enough to feel like he's in a safe environment.

And then he, he really shared this, he shared who he really was.

Yeah. And it was just incredible, absolutely incredible.

And I know he said this during the episode, but if you haven't watched the video it's an incredible thing to watch. A beautiful, yeah, a beautiful video.

You'll see his vulnerability, but then you'll see the way that the people around him respond to that.

It's ECLU's powerful.

It's amazing. Yeah.

Yeah. What a what a thrill to to meet that man.

Oh, it really was, really was.

Yep. So yeah. Thank you, thanks.

Thanks Isaac. Yeah.

Yeah. Brilliant. See you guys next week.

See you next week. Yeah.

Yeah. Let's not chat before then.

Hugh! It's Ryan. How great was that to hang out with Isaac?

What a legend. It was weird. I just felt like I had a bit of a connection with him because I used to play basketball, you know I used to play basketball.

I was, yeah, I was just as a little kid, growing up in Arkansas, I just always wanted to play basketball and it seemed like a bit of a pipe dream, but I just want to play NBA.

And anyway, one thing led to another and I was actually pretty good.

and I eventually did, I actually did play.

I don't know if I told you that.

I used to play NBA and I played for the Bulls in Chicago with this really, a bunch of great guys.

But this really, really good player called Mike, Mike Jordan, do you know Mike Jordan?

Yeah, we won like six championships together and we played on the Dream Team and the Olympics.

It was, it was so much fun.

It was an incredible chapter of my life actually.

Oh wait, no, sorry.

I've done it again.

It's so embarrassing.

I don't know why I'd do this.

I always mix me and Scottie Pippen up.

I always get us mixed up.

Maybe because we both played basketball.

I'm not sure, but that was all here, I didn't do any of that.

I didn't even play one game of NBA.

It's so weird. Anyway, sorry for the confusion.

It's Scottie, no, It's Ryan Shelton from the podcast. Shelton and Josh Van Carlenberg.

Our executive producer is Bridget North East, producer Bella North East. This episode is edited by George Martin with music from No Mono. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.

The advice given in this episode is general in nature but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.

She's in the shade Cause you've been feeling it through

[Isaac Humphries: The Courage to Live Authentically in Professional Sports]-[Isaac Humphries - Coming Out On Court]

📋 Summary

Breaking the Silence: Isaac Humphries’ Journey to Authenticity

The Weight of Secrecy and Internalized Homophobia

Basketball as a Double-Edged Sword

The Power of Coming Out

Redefining Strength and Vulnerability

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript