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We've all been taught never go into a negotiation without your BATNA, your best alternative to a negotiated agreement.
But what if your BATNA is actually the very thing stopping you from reaching your best deal?
In this episode, Derek Chevalier doesn't just challenge the rule.
He explains why it's a trap and what to do instead if you want to unlock real creativity at the table.
My contention is that if an outcome is what you expected it to be before you went into the negotiation, it's generally a sign that you left a lot on the table and that you did not evolve or create what we call the highest and best outcome.
How could you possibly have known what was possible in that negotiation and before you walked into the room?
And that's one of the dangers we talk about when you look at something like a BATNA.
Yeah, having a best alternative to a negotiated agreement is a great idea, but it's also a prison, because if you go, you came up with that BATNA.
So at the end of the day, the BATNA teaches you to negotiate with yourself.
The outcome you started with, you came up with it.
They had a BATNA.
You had a BATNA.
And then when you don't get there, you go, oh, can we drop back to my BATNA?
No, no, no, no, no.
An evolved negotiator understands that a BATNA is a place we have, but we're walking into the room to find out what we don't know, not to negotiate ourselves back into a place we decided to go to before we walked into the room.
So if the outcome is equal to what our expectation, it means that the outcome is not comprised of a significant amount of elements that we didn't know before we walked into the room.
That means we left a lot on the table.
This is a major paradigm shift because I think the BATNA has been a sacred cow in negotiation for what?
30, 40 years?
At this point,
And we never, ever stop to think about how it could possibly be hurting us.
Because, especially when you think about using the negotiation technique of anchoring, which is nothing more than psychological priming, what we're doing is that we're anchoring ourselves going into the negotiation and we're not going in with as much fluidity and openness.
And in this too, because we, so we have to kind of reprogram our minds.
It's good to have an idea of the BATNA, but not just like worship it as if it is the be all and end all of our negotiation strategy, power and leverage.
And then we also too.
If we're negotiating on behalf of somebody else, we also have to educate them as well, because we have to let them know hey listen, you have this idea, but great negotiators embrace surprises, and there's going to have to be an element of discovery here, and we need to be open to that.
So we have to negotiate with our stakeholders so they can understand this evolved negotiation approach.
We have to negotiate with ourselves to go through a little bit of unlearning before we go into the negotiation.
And then we have to negotiate with more fluidity and move to that highest and best outcome.
That's brilliant.
That's brilliant.
Absolutely.
Because think about it.
In evolved negotiation, we measure the outcome by how much of the outcome was based upon data, insight or information or knowledge we did not have when we walked into the room.
Therefore, if you knew all the things at the beginning that you needed at the end, there was no point in the negotiation, just negotiating yourself to BATNA.
So I think the BATNA is an important idea, but in Evolve or Be Slaughtered, I actually say hey, it just needs to be updated so that we understand that it's a starting point.
It's not an end.
Right.
Ultimately, what we're looking for is that creativity.
And we're looking as we get new insight and new discovery, or as we find out that our counterpart is not willing to provide us with that.
Rather than running to the BATNA, we're running to the creative aspects of our negotiation and communication capabilities to find creative ways of unlocking what the counterpart is unwilling to provide for us that strategy.
That's when we look at our tactics.
And yes, we've got to be creative in a moment to be able to decipher which tool and how to shape and use that tool to unlock that access.
Because we're not going to the BATNA until we're a thousand percent sure that we've used every tool in our toolbox to gain access to whatever that person is unwilling to share with us.
This is great.
Yeah.
So we're using our negotiation skills to gather information, to amplify our creativity.
And now let's go through this.
Let's go deeper.
Because sometimes you might be an evolved negotiator, but the other person may not be so evolved.
In this situation,
And so they might be playing their cards close to their chest, not sharing information, not even being willing to be creative.
So how do you approach this in a way that helps them to feel a level of psychological safety and vulnerability where they're willing to open themselves up, to even explore these creative options?
So obviously the answer is going to depend on the specific situations, on times and also a lot on who we're actually negotiating with.
Because, keep in mind, Very frequently the person we're negotiating with may not be the actual person that's making a decision.
Also, a person's title doesn't necessarily reflect their role in a decision-making process.
So there are a lot of variables where that we could talk about, but specifically from a skill standpoint, this is where things like neuro-linguistic programming and effective communication and neurophysiology come in.
So if you're being resistant, I might start with a persuasive argument to find out whether or not That convinces you.
And I may use data and I may use a lot of different tools to persuade you to move or to open up.
Now, if that doesn't work, I'm going to shift to a strategy based upon influence.
And the vast majority of people do not know the difference between those two, right?
So persuasion cannot happen by accident and it doesn't happen without the other person being aware that they're being persuaded by definition, right.
You can't persuade someone without their being aware of it by definition.
But if you look at the etymology of influence, influences the ability to have an impact on a person, place or thing without their being aware of it.
So now I'm going to shift and begin to use tools and approaches that give me insight into my counterpart's resistance, because that resistance may not have anything to do with the issue we're talking about.
It may have to do with some interpersonal, cultural.
It may have to do with their upbringing or their background having an impact.
I may have used a tone or a word that triggered that person, shut them down.
And their resistance is not to providing the information.
Their resistance is the fact that they're stuck in the fact that I just sounded like their father, or that my voice raised, or I was direct in a way that shut them down.
Well, that's not negotiating.
That has nothing to do with the negotiation issues.
That has to do with an interpersonal issue, during which I need to use interpersonal tools to A recognize B approach and then C resolve that issue before going back to the negotiation.
Oh, man, this was so good.
We crushed this.
Okay Simone, you take it, because I will just keep on flowing, because I know Simone has some questions for you too.
I've seen Kwame saying something similar about negotiation is the art of deal discovering instead of deal making right.
I'm not an expert, but when I go to a negotiation, my strategy is to have a goal in mind.
I don't know how to prepare a negotiation without having this goal in mind.
So how can I go to a negotiation without having a goal in mind in order to be open, to get more than what I was looking for?
I just don't understand how to harmonize these two concepts.
Man, it's actually a very good question, because what I'm thinking too is that And when you just think about goal setting in general, let's step aside from negotiation, but let's go to goal setting in general.
That, again, it kind of serves as an anchor.
So the more aggressive we are with our goals a lot of times, the more likely we are to push harder right.
So it's kind of like aim for the stars.
If you don't make it, you'll hit the moon, that type of mentality too.
But the thing is now, what we're realizing is that we might aim for the stars and recognize that the stars were a lot closer than we thought.
And there's something far beyond that, too.
And I think we have to hold that high aspiration in our mind because we recognize that, especially in transactional negotiations, the people are going to be trying to pull in the opposite direction.
They might start off very positional.
So we have to make sure that we are still ambitious enough to not be inappropriately persuaded and anchored in the wrong direction.
But at the same time, I think we have to loosely hold that goal in our mind so we still orient in the right direction, focused on our interests, but at the same time be open.
And so that's where the flow comes in, because this is something that is very difficult to reconcile, because the reality is that, a lot of times, when you start to get to higher levels, In order for us to perform at a high level, we have to hold two dichotomous beliefs in our mind at the same time and reconcile them in real time.
And so it's hard to articulate what it is, but it has to be an intentional focus on getting better, getting more, improving whatever improving might be.
And as I'm in the conversation, I might recognize that improving or moving toward better might look very, very different from what I initially planned.
I would add to that, specifically to your question Simon, this one that yes, you have an idea about what you want, but it is a decision to allow that idea to become the anchor of So the idea is what you would like in a perfect world based upon what you know.
If you enter a negotiation not focused on what you know, but rather focused on finding out what you do not know.
As you're going through that process, you're going to get new insight and information that will simultaneously change what you thought was possible when you walked in there.
And I had an experience just this morning that was I look in the stars every night and every morning before I get up.
It's a, you know, because that's the wealth, you know, you can't buy that, right?
And this morning I'm looking at what I thought was Jupiter, right?
I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking at Jupiter.
It's fixed.
I look at it, right?
And then suddenly it takes off.
And I'm watching it going across the side.
So the question would be, is it a star or is it a satellite?
Because what I thought was a star was actually a satellite moving across the universe.
So guess what?
Must have found out something he didn't know and moved to another neighborhood.
So...
So don't allow your assumptions about what it is you want and what it is.
The outcome ought to be to be the driving force, but rather to seek to get access to what you don't understand.
And that will change the entire equation.
Hey, Derek, hold up one second.
I want to talk to the listener for a moment.
Yes, you.
I'm talking to you.
If this conversation is making your brain buzz, that's a good thing.
That means you're evolving because a great negotiator doesn't just memorize strategies.
They question them.
So here's my ask for you.
Just take 20 seconds and leave a five-star review for the show.
That's what fuels this work.
And the more of those reviews we get, the more people we can reach and help to grow this movement.
And if it helps more people to discover the power of negotiation as a tool for change, then that's a real win-win.
Yeah, this is good.
Yeah, this kind of flips the old paradigm on its head.
And I think a lot of times, for the sake of ease of understanding, we have oversimplified some concepts that deserve to be a little bit more fluid too.
You know, goal setting has been described in a very rigid type of way, but that again assumes perfect knowledge, as if I'm going to go into this conversation and not learn anything.
And that rigidity kind of trickles down throughout the conversation because it biases the way that we even ask questions, because we ask questions not to expand our understanding, but subconsciously we ask questions just to confirm our previous assumptions.
Yeah.
Right.
So this is that's you.
Yeah.
Just think about that.
You're you're actually in.
That's.
That's brilliant, because you go in with this idea about what you want and then you're fighting to protect and defend what you want.
In other words, going in with a closed fist.
And I think what Kwame and I are talking about certainly an evolved negotiator is going in with an open hand.
I'm going in to find out what's possible.
Not to defend and protect what I want, because very often
What I want is a fraction of what was possible.
If the other person knew, if they had more insight about what I'd be willing to do, they might very well be able to share something.
So that's why we focus on sharing.
What am I learning that I didn't know or I'm testing my assumptions and presumptions I go in?
I'm not reinforcing and defending them.
That's going to change everything.
So I think it is a paradigm shift.
That's cool.
Testing what we already know and then not seeking to reinforce.
Man, that's good.
Man.
Derek, maybe you should write a book on this or something, bro.
I don't know.
Okay, i'm thinking about that.
This is good and uh, you know what?
Next time, if we get a chance to talk, i'd love to talk about some of the key elements in negotiation contemporarily, that we also challenge and evolve.
For instance, the idea of never split the difference, for instance.
So that figures into, if you're talking about a rigid, never split the difference, right?
So here's one of the things that we talk about.
Listen, that rule came from Chet Karras, and his third rule of his program is don't split the difference.
But what we talk about in Evolve is this.
If you teach someone never to do something, You simultaneously teach them to fail in any situation where what you told them never to do is the only thing that would result in an outcome or avoid deadlock.
So we don't teach evolved negotiators to never do something.
We teach them when to do it, how to do it and why.
What to do to protect themselves, as they're learning more about options.
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Wow.
So Evolve is not erasing things or saying they're not great ideas.
We're just saying, hey, they've got to be elevated for the 21st century because...
Because never doing something like, let's apply that to politics right now.
Never split the difference.
Really?
Are you sure you want it?
Really?
Is that where you think about Ukraine and Russia?
Never?
Never at all?
Doesn't make any sense.
And yet it's a popular idea that will create more harm than good, without understanding the That I'm never doing it because somebody told me never to do it, as opposed to saying when should I do it.
Who should I do it with?
How should I frame it?
What are other options and possibilities that I can build in?
So that's really what this snuff or evolved framework brings to the marketplace.
It looks at all of these ideas and says hey, they're not bad ideas, but they need to be updated and integrated into the body of knowledge and negotiation.
Awesome.
That's so good.
Yeah because, as you were saying that, I was thinking about what are some of those commandments of negotiation never split the differences, one of those and things like that.
Don't interrupt ever, right?
And it's like, okay.
Because I used to have those beliefs and then I was making reads and negotiations and I was saying wait no, this is actually the time to interrupt.
And I don't do it often.
I don't do it often, right?
But sometimes it's required.
And that's really, I think...
I think we need more work like that in the world to validate what a lot of people are feeling in the moment.
Because they're saying, but I'm here in this moment.
And it seems like that thing that I was told never to do is the only thing that would work under these circumstances.
But we see the read and then we don't do it to our own detriment.
But it's almost like we hold on to it almost like a religious belief where we say...
Well, according to the religion of what I should not do in negotiation, I did not do that.
And following that rule actually hurt me, but I'll get some kind of payoff sometime after the negotiation in some unspecified future.
Well, I'm feeling bad right now.
It doesn't feel like it works.
Right.
Well, think about it.
Here's the other reason why don't split the difference.
Never split the difference or any of the don'ts are kind of dumb.
I said it.
And here's why.
They actually contradict other concepts in almost every negotiation framework.
And you know what that is?
Don't create patterns.
So if you're following a rule that says don't, that becomes a pattern.
If you're following a pattern, then you become vulnerable and a slave to that pattern.
And if you're negotiating with an evolved negotiator, they will eat you alive because they have a palette of colors.
And the more sophisticated they are, they're able to create a new color based upon the environment of that moment.
So they are using a rule that, and you know from yesterday, they're bringing something new which brings up the concept, because Kwame is an attorney.
One of the things we talk about in involved negotiation is this.
Justice Gorsuch said, Great lawyers create or follow precedent.
They follow precedent.
But evolved negotiators are seeking to create precedent.
Those are very different roads, very different roads.
I need to know what the precedent is, but if it fits, you must acquit.
That wasn't a precedent.
It created a precedent.
And a great negotiator is looking to create an outcome that didn't exist, based upon precedent, the information, the ingredients and the challenges ahead of them.
And that's what an evolved negotiator does.
That's what makes the approach different than the approach of other people, right?
We're trying to figure out how to create something In a moment, right?
And sometimes we're chefs and sometimes we're bakers, meaning a chef can add and replace ingredients with this or that.
A baker needs to stay pretty close to a recipe.
However, an evolved negotiator has the ability to do both at any given time, knowing when to be a baker and when to be a cook.
And then when to be an innovator, right?
And therefore, we're continually evolving.
And if we're not, that's the sign that we need to go back and retune, refresh and reconsider what we're doing.
Oh my gosh, because this is so liberating, because it's like you've allowed me to give voice to things that I have been saying.
But again I've been thinking, but haven't really just like shot the shot, because I think when it comes to the, let's go, let's go with Evolve Negotiator, because I love that.
You know, this is your branding.
It's strong because when we're thinking about it is like yeah, we're giving you the license to do what is required to be effective in the moment.
And what we never do is lose sight of our skills.
So you never have the license to be an unskilled negotiator, but you can have the license to make reads in the moment.
And, a lot of times, people who are having these difficult conversations, or let's talk about people who are actually in sales, in negotiation, who are having these high-level conversations.
You might become just so beholden to the tactics and strategies of yesteryear, the precedent that has been set before us.
And so we're saying that we are incapable of creating something that other humans have just overlooked?
Is that the thing?
So the entirety of negotiation knowledge has been locked in since the 1980s or 1990s?
In what world is that the case?
And so when you think about what a tactic is, it's just the pairing of skills utilized at the right moment.
And that there's no possible way that, in the incredible diversity of the world and as the world continues to evolve, that we have exhausted all possible tactics.
Of course.
Thank you.
Yes.
This is why you just touched on the way.
You know that my moniker is Derek Chevalier, the Van Gogh of negotiation.
So sometimes people will ask me, what do I mean by that?
Because here's what I mean by that.
Imagine and I go to Amsterdam every chance I got going back and I'll just spend time with Van Gogh and go to the museum.
But people say, well, why is that?
And I say this.
The evolved negotiation in terms of bringing it to where it is now and where we're going has been like Starry Night.
So imagine this.
Van Gogh is in France.
He's got all these paintings, including Starry Night.
Nobody will hang it up.
He can't get a bowl of soup.
Because Starry Night is a reflective of every word that Kwame just said about new innovation.
He was making paints, making the colors, making his brushes.
He was painting subjects that were unusual for the time against Monet and others.
So people were looking at what is now a priceless painting and looking at the same painting and and saying that it had no value whatsoever.
And that's the difference between taking the body of knowledge and negotiation as if it is ironclad and evolved.
Negotiation in which we're saying hey, we got new paints, new brushes, new opportunities to create new paintings.
And when you first see them, They're not going to look like what it used to look like.
But at the end of the day, it will end up priceless in a museum just as Starry Night did.
So right.
It's the idea of no.
So it's a van.
Oh, couldn't do it.
His brother, who was an art dealer, couldn't do it.
It took a woman, not surprising his brother's wife, who went to Garinger and with a group of students, young minds, she went at a time when women were not involved in art at all and broadband go to the world.
I got something.
The universe is speaking because here, check out the synchronicity here.
This is a great place to land the plane.
So I have a Stevie Wonder story blended with an amp.
So for my 35th birthday, like a year and a half ago, i went to amsterdam to celebrate with my, my friends, and so we went into this.
We went into this restaurant and uh, it was like an old school amsterdam restaurant and um, and so somebody's, it was somebody else's birthday, and they brought out these flares and they pumped birthday music over the the loudspeakers and everything.
But it was like the traditional dutch birthday song, you know, and it was i.
I can't sing it, it was very unique tune, you know.
And um, and i said to myself, oh my gosh, i want that.
And then i brought, as soon as it was done, like the staff did their whole song and dance literally.
And uh they, i brought the server over.
I was like hey, it's my birthday.
She's like no, it's not.
I was like yes, it is, here's my driver's license.
She's like okay, we'll be back.
And so I was like this is great.
I'm going to get a traditional Dutch birthday song.
And so what happens?
What happens?
They bring out the flares, bring out the cake and everything.
And what song do they play?
The Stevie Wonder birthday song for me.
I was like, what are you profiling me?
You're profiling me?
It was great, man.
That's so great.
That's great.
Wait a second.
That's fun.
I love it.
Yeah, man.
Oh, man, this is great.
I was excited, but this was, thank you, man.
I mean, I'm blessed and I feel, so thank you, both of you.
It's really a privilege to meet you.
And we'll talk more, man.
I definitely want to get your insights on the book.
Yeah.
And I think that there are a lot of things that you'll see in there, mixed with what you're already doing.
That will then you're going to evolve.
Yes.
And take to an even other level.
And that's what we're here for.
I mean, that's what you know.
You're creating something that does not exist in a world that is ever changing and evolving.
And that's where we are.
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