Discussion keeps the world turning.
This is Roundtable.
Dating apps once promised to be the internet's shot at love, but now it seems young people are starting to ghost them, at least in the U .S.
Are we witnessing the end of the romance between dating apps and the digital natives?
And from life's little joys to big smiles, we invite you to Roundtable's Happy Place, where happiness is always on air.
Coming to you live from Beijing, this is Roundtable.
I'm Ha Young. For today's program, I'm joined by Steve Hatherly and Yu Shun in the studio.
First on today's show.
From, well, for Generation Z, those born between 1996 and 2010, they grew up with the internet at their fingertips.
dating apps were supposed to be a shortcut to romance.
Except now. American Gen Z reportedly is feeling dating apps are more like a social experiment gone wrong.
Studies show young Americans are ditching the swipe life in favor for real life connections.
But is this just a U .S.
thing? In China, dating apps are still booming.
What does this mean for the future of online dating?
So, guys, let's go to the West first and see what's going on over there in a few countries.
Online dating has been around in some countries for decades.
And what's happening now?
I remember seeing the advertisements for the initial online dating company, if not the very first one, then one of the first ones called Match .com.
And, yeah, I would see these advertisements.
And the advertisements always looked really cheesy.
and it was something that people were not really open to accepting at the time especially in the west there was a lot of speculation about the safety of online dating you know the idea of meeting a stranger on the internet was just such a weird concept but then slowly over time it became accepted.
And then when we got to the pandemic, when we got to COVID, it absolutely exploded.
There was a year -end report by Tinder, an online dating app from 2020.
They had outstanding numbers, an unprecedented number of users on March 29th in 2020, just after most of the world began lockdown.
Tinder broke its record for the most activity in a single day.
They had 3 billion swipes in a day.
Yeah. If you don't know what we're talking about when we say swipe, it's just on the screen.
If you like the person, you swipe right.
And if you don't, then you swipe left and their image disappears.
They weren't the only one.
OKCupid in May, between March and May of 2020, they saw an increase of 700 percent in dates.
And on Bumble, another one, video calls increased by 70%.
That was during COVID time.
And it made sense, right?
Because everybody was locked down, nobody was doing anything, and everybody was bored and everybody was lonely.
But new evidence suggests that young people are switching away from dating apps.
So young, you said the US, but it's not just the US.
In the UK, their top 10 saw a fall of nearly 16%.
That was from a report from Ofcom in November of 2024.
Tinder lost 594 ,000 users.
Another one, Hinge, dropped by 131 ,000.
Bumble lost 368 ,000.
Just a quick question.
Also, just to give everybody a little bit more of the context, when do you think that dating apps became popular, like a little bit more widespread, at least in, you know, the English -speaking world?
Was it like three decades ago?
Am I going way too far back in history?
Well, like I said, about 30 years ago, that's when it all started.
But it wouldn't have been popular at the time, and it wouldn't have been commonplace at the time.
Like I said, there was always this stigma attached with online dating, but that stigma disappeared, and it really, really disappeared during the pandemic.
Right. And it's interesting to know the reasons behind that.
Before we get into what's happening here in China, what do you think is driving this change?
Well, let's talk about some of the statistics from Gen Z first.
This is a 2023 report from Axios.
They studied U .S. college students and other Gen Zers.
And 79 % said that they were foregoing regular dating app usage.
So that's a pretty significant number, right?
In its 2024 Online Nation report, Ofcom said some analysts speculate that for younger people, particularly Gen Z, the novelty of dating apps is wearing off.
And even in a 2024 letter to shareholders, one company that owns multiple dating apps, they acknowledged, they said, yes, young people are seeking a lower pressure, more authentic way to find connections.
And then there was one more survey result that I'll share with you.
This is from 2023. Daters in America between the ages of 30 and 49, who are mostly millennials, They make up 61 percent of dating app users, whereas Gen Z comes in at only 26 percent.
I think that is probably the difference that Chinese market may have compared to the Western market, because from what I saw is that most of the people that is using dating app are Gen Z.
And I think the number was about 60 percent.
So maybe and right now the like the target group is changing to Gen Z or the millennials have already found their romance and then people are not in favor of these kind of dating apps.
But still, there are some specific reasons that maybe people are not in favor of these kind of dating apps.
First of all, I think is fear of rejection and feeling cringe from these apps.
You know, dating app, Hengzhi said, there is a 2024 report showing that many Gen Z daters cite fear of rejection and being seen as cringe as top concerns when they are using these kind of apps.
In a tech mediated world right now, we're having right now living in, they may find it harder to, you know, put themselves in a vulnerable position of seeking partnership online only to be passed over or ghosted.
So, you know, yeah, that happens, I would say.
I think that's connected to, and this is what they say, the experts on this topic say, is that Gen Z grew up, they are the tech generation, right?
They grew up with tech in their lives from the minute they entered this world.
And with tech comes social media and with social media comes likes and approval.
And we've talked about this on the show many times.
Right. The this the seeking of attention through the Internet and the seeking of validation through the Internet.
And when you don't get that validation, it can hurt your self -confidence.
and they say that that might be related to the unpopularity of dating apps with Gen Z is that you're putting yourself, it's almost like social media where you can be rejected immediately and that can have an impact on people wanting to use the app at all and they say that older generations, they might not have that same
discomfort level. I think so and that's, immediately as a millennial when I saw this, I'm sorry to feel a little judgy here but feeling rejected online versus being rejected in real life isn't real life the one that hurts more yeah uh but for gen z possibly they don't know the before and after of the internet
they only know the internet and that little scratch i'm sorry to say that not really um actually hurts quite a lot for them apparently and um so so now is it like welcome to the real world are they are they seeing that uh there are the other options of but they're still not completely ditching digital
for sure well no they're not ditching tech altogether that's for sure and we'll get to that and by the way it's not just gen z that are losing their desire to use these apps their appeal is is weakening with daters of all age and they say that one of the reasons for that is that the users are saying
the algorithms are not finding them or helping to find them what they want and they feel sometimes that dating app companies are only there to upsell their customers by hiding helpful features behind paywalls you have to pay an extra amount for an extra type of service I guess that service would depend
on which app you were using at the time They find that frustrating.
Can I please second that?
I know you have something to say here, Gen Z, but as a millennial, if I can say a couple of words for those of a different generation here.
Please. Thank you. I second that so much in the sense that, okay, here's something controversial, because I know a lot of people have really just embraced dating apps of all sorts with open arms.
But can I say, on dating apps, women are very much encouraged by the platforms itself to take on an incredibly low resolution view of this man, if we're talking about heterosexual relationships, only education and wealth and maybe physical build because that's the only things that immediately comes
through via your online dating profile.
And then so all these things that I'm sure a ton of wonderful and nice real life guys simply are not able to show.
And there may be, if we're talking about a younger generation of men, if, let's say, online dating is the primary way to practice dating skills in trying to woo a future partner, they don't even get to work on these real -life skills that much, such as vibe, humor, being pleasant, caring, and kind, being
very charming. If you don't have a six pack, you're not going to get that far.
And that's just incredibly sad.
And that's why also I think we just take for granted that we always imagine the other person behind the smartphone screen is actually getting all the swipes.
When I think all the figures are showing that silently people are really suffering in the sense that a ton of people are not getting any swipes.
Now, to be fair, and I'm not sure we're going to talk about what it's like here in China, but I think with dating apps in the West, some apps have the reputation of being quite shallow, right, looking for the hottest guy or the hottest girl.
But other apps have a different reputation.
They have the reputation of people who are career focused, looking for someone similar and apps that are taking looking for their users to take relationships seriously, not just looking for, you know, meeting for fun or casual dating or things like that.
That's a great point you just brought up about the career aspect of things.
And I don't know if this is good news or incredibly sad news that apparently last year it reached, there were reports saying that people are looking for relationships on LinkedIn.
We're a place that's a place where people are supposed to look for jobs because of these online apps being so unreliable.
People are finding new ways to find potential the love of your life.
And I can't believe it's LinkedIn.
You should. You have something to share here.
To echo back some of the points that you guys just mentioned, first of all, there are, yeah, we in China, there are a lot of apps that I think cater to different needs of people.
Of course, maybe you are trying to find some very exciting relationship on this one app and maybe you can find another, not another, or this type of people would like to find very serious relationship on other types of app.
And also, to He Yang's point, I think, you know, human are visual animals, right?
Oh, coming from a man.
I'm looking forward to the next 20 words that come out of your mouth.
At least. I mean, what I mean is that, you know, we will have first impression on one person.
And that first impression comes from their, like, appearance.
And then one picture may not tell everything.
but at least there will be a first impression and maybe on a lot of these apps they will give you like a chance to like say maybe one sentence to review your personality and that is maybe the part that you can seek or find similarity between you guys and yes i've seen many like dating apps actually
offer these kind of membership services such as you know letting you know who liked you and uh you know their membership fees aren't cheap they are often even more expensive than some you know regular video streaming apps a membership yes so a lot of people thinking these kind of you know services are not something that they're
seeking or it is it is not worthy to pay for a dating app for that amount of money what about in china in terms of the numbers we are seeing in the West that Gen Z seems to be losing their appeal for dating apps.
The numbers are or the demographics are different here in China?
Yeah. First of all, as I said, the demographic may be a little bit different.
And also the trend of the usage of dating app is also a little bit different.
User scale continues to grow, according to some research report from an industry consulting website Gongyan.
The user base of dating apps in China here has surpassed 160 million with young people who are aged from 18 to 35 forming the core group.
I'm not saying that people aged over 35 are not young, but this is the demographic of this report.
And among them, users aged 25 to 35 account for over 60 percent.
And market penetration is gradually expanding from smaller cities and rural areas.
And I think that's maybe also one of the reasons that, you know, the demographic of people using dating apps is expanding.
User growth has slowed, but the industry's revenue scale is expected to continue rising.
By 2024, the market size for dating apps in China is projected to reach 36 billion yuan.
That's about approximately 5 billion u .s dollars which is a 63 percent year -on -year increase well let's see if this trend is happening here in china as the trend is happening in the west you asked me huyang are they out on tech no they're for finding love they're not out on tech for finding love it's just
they are moving to a different um a different platform to do it uh some gen z daters they're skipping you could call it like skipping the middleman, the dating app middleman, if you will, and they're using their social media communities for dates, and social media, we know, is where you can connect
with like -minded people, right?
People who share similar interests, and also social media algorithms, they show you the accounts of people who like what you like, so they are basically presented to you if that's what you're looking for, and I think if you're looking at different types of apps, social media apps or hobby apps where it
might be a cycling club or a book club or a movie club, a movie app, then it makes the introduction part a lot less awkward and weird because you have something of shared interest right away.
So you can say, oh, you like that movie?
I love that movie too.
And it's just an icebreaker.
And it's more of an organic way to meet someone, Even though it's still online, even though it's still technically a stranger, you've still at least got something.
So for Gen Z users, that makes them feel more comfortable about the experience, whereas your traditional dating app experience would be a little more formulaic and a little less personal.
So now the touchpoint is still digital.
It's just in the olden days you go to a physical place to meet that person to form the club.
But now you're just finding that club online and you're hanging out online before any offline activity happens.
There is an app, there's one for movies, there's one for cycling, where people will post the route that they cycled that day or something.
And then one woman commented that that's a great way for her to meet a potential partner because she loves cycling.
But as an introduction to just see a route that she thinks, oh, that would be a challenging one, and just like that and then comment on it.
Like, oh, that must have been difficult.
I know that area. See what I mean?
It's just more of an organic route.
So that's happening in the U .S.
Then what about here in China, since we've established that young people are still very much into online dating?
And this is actually the no -brainer go -to way to date for a lot of young Chinese people these days.
But what are they looking for from these dating apps?
Apparently, they want more diversified service too.
Yeah, I think here in China, we have quite the similar trend.
You know, some of these apps or, you know, not originally dating apps, they are developing these kind of social media element or featuring their apps and making users to use these kind of features.
And so these kind of scenarios or dating scenarios are becoming more diverse and shifting from, I think, simple matchmaking to a mix of social networking and interest based friendships or emotional counseling kind of thing.
For example, some users are expanding their social circles through video video platforms or music and language learning platforms.
I saw some of the ads on Bilibili, which is a video streaming platform here in China, and also NetEase Music, which is obviously a net, no, sorry, music platform that you can listen to music and also make friends through the music that you're listening to.
So these are all the platforms that are not originally dating apps or social media apps, but a lot of them are developing that kind of social media feature to making people making friends on these platforms and maybe developing to a romantic relationship.
Right. And AI is all over the place and including here.
Apparently, there are actually a few dating apps claim that they're using advanced AI algorithms to possibly help you to match with the right person or doing other things that are supposedly conducive to finding a potential partner.
How realistic or powerful do you think AI can be helping people to find love?
Well, we know that it's going to find its way in there somehow, somehow, some way.
Right. Have you ever heard of a dating assistant, an A .I.
dating assistant before?
There's an app that provides dating conversation suggestions, and that is meant to help users break the ice in dating apps.
You should. I don't know if you would know this, but a long time ago, a long many decades ago, even my father's generation.
Guys would write conversation ideas on a little piece of paper and put it in their pocket.
And then if they panic when they're on the date, they'll just kind of check the paper.
If their date goes to the washroom, they'll check the paper to remind themselves of some things that they can talk about.
So Riz, this dating app, or an AI dating assistant, is kind of along those same lines.
So users can upload conversation screenshots and then Riz will provide reply suggestions for you.
If you find yourself that nervous or in a spot where you don't know what to say, there is an AI assistant that can help you with that.
And if you're wondering, oh, is that really popular or not?
They have a million and a half active users and a total user base of 7 .5 million people to date.
It's staggering. 30 % month over month growth for that AI dating assistant yeah and I can see this is quite you know handy when you really don't know what to say when you're like seeing someone or having a conversation with your crush so and I saw another news saying that Tinder this dating app is also developing
some of their AI features one is that their AI photo selector they will help you to to intelligently select the most suitable photos or your best photos for your dating profile and enhancing maybe your attractiveness of your profile.
And also they're trying to develop an AI -driven kind of feature to match or for your upcoming matches and to make the algorithm smarter in the way that you can have better matches when you're swiping.
OK, that all sounds good.
All that being said, I think it's still absolutely we should shoulder the responsibility in reminding people that there are still some potential risks with online dating.
One being you don't necessarily know who the other person is.
And catfishing is pretty a common phrase for a lot of people these days, I suppose.
uh catfishing is when somebody tricks others online by using a fake identity and if you've watched uh the netflix documentary the tender swindler the story of an online dating scammer and the many women he conned out like millions of u .s dollars there are a few documentaries about that type of thing yeah
i'm not saying that online dating is all bad but these risks are also real And I think for today's younger people or anybody who's doing all these online dating, it's absolutely necessary to sort of be digital literate as well to know that there are these potential things to look out for so that you're
not tricked. Yeah. And just quickly, dating apps, they're aware of this shift in what Gen Z is looking for, for finding love.
And they've responded.
They're not just giving up.
Some apps, where if people have said they had terrible experiences on dating apps before, and there are a lot of stories on the internet about that, right?
Maybe we even know somebody who had just terrible experiences on dating apps.
But they've responded.
Breeze is one where users who agree to be set up on a date, they aren't allowed to message each other before they meet.
So that's a change that one app is making.
And then there's another app called Jigsaw, and they hide people.
You talked about it, Yushin, about seeing each other is kind of an expected thing.
But with Jigsaw, they hide people's faces.
They only remove pieces like a jigsaw puzzle to reveal the full photo after a certain time or a certain amount of interaction.
So in the beginning, you can't see their full photo.
Oh, interesting. Well, my advice here is still always, you know, maybe meet someone and try to meet them in person offline soon.
Because once you get to see the person in reality, then you'll probably know the bigger picture a little bit better.
