Hello everyone Amy B and I are here with the host of HBR's new podcast new here.
She's Alaini Mata. Hello Hi, how are you guys Hey Alaini So tell our tell our listeners about new here.
What what have you covered this first season?
So new here is an early career podcast We help anyone tackling something for the first time at their job whether they're going into their first full-time job after graduating or starting a new job after a break tell me Alaini because you and I talked months ago about What it was gonna be like to host a podcast how has it been different than what you expected?
So I've said this before to the both of you.
I'm an actor like stage trained actor So here I had to adapt it to a more conversational piece instead of this like dramatic Loud trying to reach all everyone in the room.
That was not project into the mind I liked it.
It was hard though It is hard.
It is hard as as we one of our guests recently said to Amy Be do you know how hard it is to make a podcast if we do know yeah, yeah, we've been told There are two of your episodes from the season that I really like one was with our friend Muriel Magnum Wilkins about what to do if you don't feel motivated at work As always she just drops the pearls of wisdom and I also of course was drawn to the bad bosses episode What else have you covered?
We've covered how to make a good first impression in your job interview where we get a perspective from an actor And how they make a good first impression and like a short amount of time we cover how to make the case for your first raise and how that's a long game Conversation and not just this one time and then you're done and then one of my favorites is one of our first ones Which is our boundaries episode?
How do you one establish what your own boundaries are and how do you communicate that with the people that you're working with?
Yeah, that is the topic.
I am very interested in work to gonna do an essentials episode of women at work essentials episode About that.
Yes, I'm so excited. I have to say I was surprised That you invited your therapist to join you in conversation.
Yeah, that was a kind of a wild card of throwing her in as a guest idea Yeah, how would you feel if I brought in my But I thought it was a cool way to introduce the show one that to showcase I wasn't afraid to talk about mental health in this sort of a way right there Yeah, and I think if we just start here it normalizes the conversation that this is a real thing It's so important.
No, you're not alone Exactly We're gonna play the show's season finale Which is called is entrepreneurship right for me as in is quitting your full-time job and working for yourself right for you Yes, the first voice you'll hear is not me but Gemma Speg who's the guest and she is the host of the podcast Psychology of your 20s.
She took the leap of quitting her full-time job to focus on her show So I like graduated back in 2021 and It's like I'm gonna be a consultant got this great job at the time.
It was my dream job was super excited and Was there for about a year and a half This is Gemma Speg the creator and host of the hip podcast the psychology of your 20s Gemma had been a consultant, but when we talked to her she had just quit that job to focus on her passion project making her podcast We talked to her as she started her first full day as a podcaster Which is a job title she hadn't anticipated for herself The first like year and a half.
I really didn't have any listeners.
I Didn't really have any external reinforcements, but I think that That made me love it even more and as things got more popular and suddenly I had so many listeners It was actually really overwhelming.
I didn't really know how to cope because I was like I'm just this like Small town girl who's just like you know lives in Australia and Suddenly all these businesses and all these people are reaching out to me For Gemma juggling a full-time job and a growing podcast was just too much But leaving her nine to five life behind to work for herself Carried real financial risks and it also was a huge change in the way that she was living and working What if she left the office behind only to end up broke and less happy?
You quit which is brave as hell.
Are you scared of anything?
Oh my gosh, yes Welcome to New Year honest conversations and practical advice to help you play the game called work.
I'm Alaini Matta This week we wrap up our first season with a question that's so many of us are grappling with Should I quit the corporate life that may not feel right for me and pursue my passion project?
So some people can take this kind of risk especially if you don't have a lot of financial responsibilities But you still may be worried about stability and what your future is going to look like with less of a road map There's a whole list of questions and uncertainties you might need to consider before making that huge decision Which is why we wanted to hear about it from Gemma as she began her journey We talked to her way back in May literally on the first day she started working for herself She told us how she made the decision to leave her job and how she planned for her transition Including dealing with some real fears about how she would pay her bills and battle loneliness Then we went back to Gemma five months after she started working for herself Because we wanted to find out which of her fears were warranted How she created new structures for herself and if she is really happier on her own One more thing Keep in mind that this is just one person's story Taking the corporate versus entrepreneurship route is a personal decision Today our goal is to help you think through the possibilities and trade-offs as we learn from Gemma's experiences Okay, let's dive in with Gemma and hear more about what her corporate job was like Why she wanted to leave If you've worked in consulting people out there listening or in the world You'll know that like 95 is not your hours Like I've done like if I worked 9 to 5 like that was a really good day so I was like essentially squeezing in this Side project this passion that I had in those like spare hours of my day when I was exhausted when I would really prefer to Go and see my friends or just do something chill like watch TV And it was a lot of work, but I was I think a good labor of love Mm-hmm.
I can empathize with that.
So like full disclosure.
Yeah I also have like a like a passion project on the side other than like work.
Yeah musician like I like composed music.
I arrange music. I do it for myself and I do it for others like I love music and I read this tweet That's like if you can put in 9 to 5 then you can put in your 5 to 10 for a side hustle and it's like you know Yes, but like damn I that's a lot of working in one day like when am I gonna actually chill But I it's definitely a labor of love because you're like this is a lot of work, but I really like doing it so I wonder like when did that thought start to leave working for somebody else To go work for yourself honestly like Only like the start of the year.
So what is it now this year of this year?
Yeah, wow I I fully was like I was going for promotions at my old job I was like investing in the culture and I and I did love the community at my old job like It was quite sad to leave, but I was like I'm gonna make it to manager Then I'm gonna be a director and then I'm gonna be a principal at this firm and this podcast thing Just follow along with me and I have to give a shout out.
I had Like I think I was very lucky where I had an agent from the US reach out to me her name Shelby I didn't even know that an agent for a podcaster was a thing and she really was someone who understands the industry really believed in me and She was really like know what you have here is really special and this can be something really big I'm gonna show you out what where everything is and I'm gonna show you how the ropes work and I started working with her in like October last year and then She was efficient by like January She kind of convinced me that Like I could quit like this could be my full-time job So I have a few more questions about like your This like newness of being out of your job like how is your first day of freedom of not going in and Following that structure.
Yeah, it was a little bit learnly actually um And I also it was so funny.
I had a meeting yesterday and I I was like super late to it because I didn't put it in my calendar because I I'm like used to having things on teams and I like pops up being like You have a meeting in 15 minutes.
Do you just do that on your computer where it's like yeah, yeah It's like about five minutes it'll remind me yeah literally and I was like oh I need to start using Google Calendar because my like my work life is now also my personal life and it's not Mm-hmm, not separate like it.
I need to organize this as one like You know because previously it was like yes.
No, sorry friend or sorry I'm sorry Person I cannot meet with you during the hours of nine to five because I'm working and now it's like oh I can't meet with you during those hours But suddenly I have to remember that I am doing that Like I'm not just sitting down for this discrete period just to you know Like work and not be distracted.
Yeah wow that's so Yeah, that'll be interesting And it was before like it was before but I think more from in someone of a deficit like it it was more that I was giving up on like a big motivator for me For quitting was the fact that I didn't have any work-life balance So it's interesting that I said to you like my first day was kind of lonely when I was also very lonely when I was working full time And doing the show on the side because I like didn't have any time to see my friends.
I really yeah, I would I would make so many sacrifices of being like I'm sorry.
I can't hang out. I'm gonna have to I was canceling all the time like God bless my friends They're putting up with me but like every second thing I'd be like I got a I got an episode you're gonna meeting I got a ride Um, so I think that is one of those things where it has already intersected with my personal life a little bit But and also I've become like friends with people in the industry, but I'm interested to say whether this like consumes my entire identity I'm whether like consumes like my entire life And I have a feeling it might yeah I feel that I have that same fear my brother was talking to me about it too That he's like I'm afraid of doing something that I love full time and then it becomes something that I hate because I'm doing it full time Yeah, and it's interesting that you say that because I do think that the idea that it could become something that is just work to me is scary But I don't think that that is a fear that that should hold me back I think we hear a lot more about people who are disappointed that they work their nine to five to the day they die Then people who say they disappointed because they followed their dream.
Yeah So I'm so curious because you have like an episode about talking about the psychology of the nine to five hmm And now It's not a nine to five.
It may be an extended hour.
Hmm. How do you think You will be affected by that change Like there's so many things that are that are gonna affect That it's gonna be like the the schedule change.
It's going to be you making decisions for yourself Okay, I'm gonna answer like this question at a surface level about like what's gonna change about my day to day?
I think firstly like The increased flexibility is going to be so good for my mental health Obviously, I will I think that I've already stayed and that I'm working extended hours probably longer than I do normally work At my nine to five, but not longer than I worked when I was working my nine to five and I was working Doing this podcast, right like it's still a win But if the thing is that it just provides a lot of flexibility to be like okay I want to go for a walk in the middle of the day I never used to be able to do that.
I never used to be able to say I'm gonna take like two hours and go for like a hike and I know that I can come back at like five and I can just work an extra two hours till seven or till I to make up for that And that's my decision and that flexibility I think is So important but it exists on this weird spectrum of like giving up structure, right?
So It's like there's a balancing system here because when you have too much flexibility Your consistency goes out the window.
It's a lot harder to motivate yourself Things can kind of run away from you But of course when you have too much structure you don't have enough creative freedom You don't have enough time to kind of balance your life and to focus on your mental health and to focus on the things that are important to you So structure was one of the things that I was most scared of giving up actually Um, it's really nice to have a place to go every day Go to an office.
You know everyone there.
They know you they become your friends You spend like 10 hours a day with them You have breakfast lunch sometimes even dinner with them At least at my work that's kind of what was like so Giving up that structure of having someone to tell me what I what I need to do Having someone Tell me if I'm meeting their expectations or not having people to be around all the time having community Giving that up is going to be difficult.
So I wonder I think that's the thing that's going to impact my overall psychological well-being Is that adjustment to spending more time alone and spending more time isolated?
That's my biggest concern Well, that's real I didn't even think about that but the lack of structure the or the structure that you'd be losing In that but I think if that's like a come that's a comfort zone for sure Because like you've been told what to do this entire time and even like how to do it And now you have this you Gemma have the freedom to create your own structure, which is really freaking cool.
Yeah Alainee what what's like your dream there like when do you have like a timeline for when you'd like to do musical time?
That's a really good question.
I want to know that's a really good question Um, I don't know I guess nobody has asked me that thank you Gemma like nobody has asked me that before Well, it's a good thing to take about it.
Well, I hope you think about it.
I I guess I never thought about the timeline because I have a little girl.
She's two years old So I'm thinking more about security and yeah benefits and health insurance which like That's a very western way to think Yeah, and that those are my fears Those fears kind of bring me back.
So I I'm curious for you like You've done it like you quit which is brave as hell Like good for you.
Congratulations. Are you scared of anything?
Oh My gosh. Yes Yes, and also I I firstly want to acknowledge what you've said like like I'm very privileged like I live in Australia right and Where all set here?
There is a few other safety nets that could catch me before I fell That's a big partner to make it political, but like that's a big part of it right like I can't imagine Doing this in the US where I had to pay for health insurance like I don't pay for health insurance here It's free like yeah, that that would be so scary to me um and also I don't have children and obviously that changes the whole dynamic so Sometimes I I do feel like I need to add a caveat instead of like sitting here and mean like everyone can quit their full-time job I don't think that's what I'm trying to say like I think that I just It's just like a nice piece of inspiration to be like okay, it can be done Not that it necessarily has to be done Um, but also yeah, I'm terrified.
I'm really terrified Like what are you afraid of?
um Okay, vulnerable like of it all Ending of it all coming crashing down the number start dropping and Suddenly there's no one again And I've gotten used to this level of praise and this level of Interaction and this level of listenership And it will be a really sharp drop Coming up after the break we'll look at the aftermath of jema's decision to quit What actually happens when your passion project becomes your full-time job Be right back Okay, so we talked about the reasons jema left her job What she was worried about and we also heard all the excitement she was feeling as she started out on her own self-employment journey We waited five months and then we called her back to see how everything was going And unfortunately for jema since there's a huge time difference between the us and australia She had to get up at 5.30 a.m.
To talk to us. So we appreciate her So you're good to see you Likewise That was my like, you know when you have those alarms.
I like this is the final alarm like this is you have to wake up Yeah, that was it for this morning.
It was like out of bed Fortunately, I didn't even need it So I went get together.
Thank you for waking up so early and talking to us.
I really appreciate it Yeah, I'm so excited to talk to you.
So How has the past couple of months been like for you?
Oh my goodness a bit of a roller coaster which I'm sure we'll get into Oh, overall positive outcome.
I'm feeling amazing doing amazing.
I cannot envision myself going back To my entire job.
Yeah, I was like I just can't imagine that happening.
So what about This new lifestyle, I guess or this new structure Do you like the most?
I think the main one which everyone points out is the flexibility.
Yeah It's so incredibly freeing to not have to live within the constraints of the hours of nine to five And now it's like okay, I am in charge of how much I work and what I produce and the output So I can always just work harder during the week or work harder for a couple of weeks or a couple of months To give myself that time off and like an example is Right now I'm in a bit of a crunch period because I'm coming to the US in November.
I don't want to have to do too much recording Or any recording last time over there.
So let me just do an extra episode a week bank them For when I go overseas and I essentially get an extra month off which I think is So incredibly liberating and I'm very grateful for to have that kind of flexibility in my life Yeah, I think we talked about in the last time is is This structure that you would have in your Nine to five where you're working for somebody else the structure is set up for you And now that you're working for yourself you have to create your own structure How has that been like to create this new time stamping for you throughout the day?
Are you still figuring out what works or have you already figured it out?
Yeah, it's interesting because that was the one thing I was like I think I might struggle with this Mm-hmm.
You think the main thing that I've realized is that every day is going to look really different You know right now I'm talking to you guys.
It's like 5 30 a.m That's not typical and then like another day, you know, I have a meeting it You know, I have meetings throughout the day, but then the evenings for like all of these kind of Different things crop up.
So how I more think about it is time stamping the week Mm-hmm.
I'm being like there are specific tasks that need to be done each week and I realized that certain tasks work best on a particular day So with my podcast I released on Tuesdays and Fridays So Writing episodes on like Wednesdays and Thursdays works best for me Because then I give myself like Friday morning to record next week's episode or Sunday evening to record the next week's episodes Yeah, so I think that's the main thing.
I really struggled with it with it at first I think also then went a little bit ham like I want a bit to the extreme Because something oh how well something I realized I think is that no one's gonna care about your work as much as you do So you know what I mean like yeah, no one's gonna Be like in your ear being like work harder work harder work harder like you have to achieve this you have to achieve this You're the only one who's really gonna do that for yourself And I think when I first like started Working for myself.
There was like a period of like a month where I was like I need to be working Every single day excessively to the max In order to like make this worth it I guess I don't necessarily think that was like a terrible thing Definitely wasn't sustainable though.
I think in any facet of life to be doing that So I'm really interested in In the community aspect so like when you go into work You have your people that sit around you in your desk that you talk to and you have people to kind of bounce ideas off of And now that you're working for yourself like what does that equivalent look like for you now like is there an equivalent?
Actually, there is it was quite lonely like the fat up until only probably a couple months ago Also just the nature of you know the thing that I do now is that it's a very solitary activity You can't really have someone sitting next to having a chat while you're trying to yeah record like 40 minute hour long episodes So I don't really see anyone wow throughout the day and then I'm actually met these two girls who run a podcast called two broach chicks Who are incredible And we went out for lunch and we sat down and we were chatting we're chatting we're chatting And then one of them just goes to me can I ask you a question and I was like Yeah, absolutely and she was like are you just incredibly lonely at the moment And I was like yeah, I totally am and she was like we we are as well We like wow yeah, and they're like we are as well And they're like and I was like why don't we get an office space And literally between having that conversation we had an office space within a week Someone was like yeah, someone was just like subletting their office for like two days a week And so we just were like let's do it We invited a bunch of other creators who work in the podcasting space Who we thought might benefit from it And now we have our own little office and it's so lovely It's like kind of all women in there like 20s and 30s working in this kind of audio Sphere of entertainment and we get to like share frustrating things and you know when our mics don't work and when The reaction to an episode has been bad or when an ad partner is like being difficult So it's really amazing.
It's like something I was really excited to talk to you about That's really cool and how quickly that was set up now I'm curious of like what parts of your former working life have you brought with you in your current working life One I've noticed is just having like this office space.
Is there anything else that you've also borrowed?
Honestly on the spot Not much else Yeah No, it's interesting like I don't really use LinkedIn as much anymore And like I'm kind of like tapped out of that kind of professional space in the traditional sense And the work I'm doing is always work that I want to do and I think what was the main reason that I I think always kind of struggled with working in a corporate Space was I would put in all these hours all this effort.
I would sacrifice time with friends time with family time to myself Yeah, it just felt like oh my goodness.
Why am I putting in all this time to a goal a dream a vision that I don't necessarily believe in And now um, it's this like beautiful thing where it's like well every single hour feels like it's well spent Yeah, and I think that ties into like the work life balance.
Yes You are enjoying what you're doing But I wonder if like work life balance still exists if you love what you're doing This is so interesting because I was talking to my partner about this the other day and his parents were like Oh, just gemma work The same hours as you and he is a solicitor and they're like does he work this just she worked the same hours as you And he was like oh probably more because she's always On the clock almost you know, especially like with the social media element as well nowadays Um, and it like really made me realize I was like oh is that like how people See me operating like do I actually not have work life balance like am I on my phone too much am I checking my emails too much But I think also he was right in that it's a lot easier to do Over time when you love something Especially since the podcast for me used to be a hobby Right it used to be what I would do in my free time It used to be and it still is the thing that I greatly greatly enjoy As I like emotional creative outlet So I still want to do that all the time.
It's just about being like no, this is also a job now This is also work So you can do it all the time But it's not going to really leave a lot of space for other things So now it's about being like okay, let's make sure we have hard codoffs I try and protect my weekends.
That was a big thing. Yeah, that's your boundary.
Oh, I'm curious what your boundaries are So not working on weekends Not working on weekends Another one that I'm trying to do is not checking emails or social media To do with the podcast first thing in the morning Um, there's like I think also an element of that is Maybe this is like yeah, so not working on weekends not checking my phone my god.
I'm realizing I have no boundaries That's literally it That's actually it You really like a eliminating perhaps what is a problem here I'm like my bad I have two boundaries and they are very loose We it's it's we're human we can adapt we can change this that's all yeah So that leads me to another question of like Do you still Love this job even now that it's become your full time.
It's now a job It's not a side hustle.
It's not a hobby. It's a job.
Do you still Love it? Someone said this to me there that I loved it.
They're like when you Take your hobby and make it your career The only people who could do that are the people who love their hobby like 150% Because making it your job is gonna rub you of that 50% it's gonna make you love it 50% less So if you still want to love it at 100% you've got a really fricking love it And I totally agree with that because I think I used to love it like 150% and now I love it like 100% like Wow, I still absolutely adore it and I would not be doing anything else my like sense of purpose is so profound.
I still feel like a real commitment to it.
I still enjoy every part of the process.
Yeah so I I wanted to Ask you about money and like the money component about working for yourself How are you handling the financial aspect now?
What does that look like?
Um, I think it's It's It's a bit more stressful.
It's very stressful. Okay Um, which I'm maybe more surprised people I don't know but I'm sure of more like it's a bit stressful because You don't have that long-term financial security that I think a full-time job often gives you But what I'm realizing is that you know a lot of my friends have been recently laid off Especially like in the tech space over here So and you know they've managed to find new jobs It's kind of like it's not like it's really safe anywhere, you know what I mean I still think it's worth the risk Um to do that But it's definitely is like a long-term financial stability thing where I'm like Okay, I am stressing about where I'll be in three years and you know in three years When I'm still doing this I would have been out of the traditional workplace for three years So what if I do need to find another job?
or Thinking about the things like, you know, do I Go and rent a bigger house or rent a bigger apartment With the income I have now, but what if I don't have that income in eight months At or do I buy a house and you know, that's a huge thing But it's like what if I can't pay the mortgage in five years because I bought this house when I was getting making steady income from this thing and Now I don't look at have that income.
So I think it is like the fickleness sometimes of this industry and I Literally just recently got a financial advisor.
Nice. Yeah. It's also just things like around taxes and all that kind of stuff I tried to do it myself, but all my income is you know far and income from the US.
Oh, that is oh, yeah Definitely confusing to do on your own.
Yeah, or come oh, you know, you got like these tiny little micro payments from like Three dollars from people like donating to your patreon.
So it's just like all these tiny little transactions that Need to be accounted for so that I don't commit tax fraud Because I would like to not go to prison.
So it's just like It's just like a bit of a learning process So it is actually a big tip if you're thinking about quitting your nine to five get an accountant if you don't already have one or a financial advisor Yeah, I'm a financial advisor Oh talk to him in a while, but maybe Maybe you should maybe you should So how has your sense of Self changed since you left working for somebody else Yeah, I think the big one is I and maybe this isn't a positive, but I have a lot more imposter syndrome Really?
myself. Yeah Which sounds like so kind of intuitive Yeah, well, I think it's this thing.
It's like you further into the belly of the beast right so you have more things to do out So that's kind of what I why I feel that way because I'm like oh, I'm There's more you know previously I could kind of detach myself from me like oh, you know This is my real job and this is just like my hobby This is my side hustle like I don't care if people don't think I belong here like I don't care if It isn't like amazing every single time because it's just fun And now it's like oh you best believe that I care because this is not just a hobby It's also how I pay my bills.
It's also a massive source of my identity and so Yeah, I think it is a little bit difficult And I often I'm like what am I doing here the social comparison is Insane I'm really trying it work on it It's not so much like a competitive sense, but more of like oh my god.
I'm not doing as much as they're doing I should be doing more or like That's why yeah, it's like oh, you know, though that episode's really amazing.
How come I didn't think about that All because I'm not meant to be here.
I'm sure this is a mistake.
Yeah, I'm so Like wrapped on this imposter syndrome thing because I think it's really real And I appreciate you for being honest about it when you do feel like you start to compare yourself to other people That are doing the same thing that you're doing What has helped you kind of get yourself out of that headspace and bring yourself back to this core of I'm jama and I'm really doing the damn thing So I just think about it in the sense of the times that I haven't had an audience or will not have an audience so I think about it before anyone listened and How fulfilling it was and that I would still be doing this Even if there was no one out there who really can't about it And then I think about what it would be like what it's going to be like in 50 years When Podcasts are replaced by I don't know nanobots now brain telling us secret messages like I think about like I think about it in 50 years and when you know, I'm sure the podcast will no longer be running And I think about whether I'll be proud of the content that I put out Because I won't remember I think I can I can't many downloads each episode got Or x1 and zet like what I remember is like oh was there something that I was really proud to put out And was there something that I would listen to yeah I also sorry fun one final thing is just like I Maybe this is an Australian thing but Believefully in the idea of staying in your own lane.
It's like oh, they stay in their own lane They just do their own thing.
They're just going down the freeway at their at their speed So I think the social comparison thing really was like getting to my head So it was like all right, let's mute unfollow Remove these people that make you feel like you're not doing enough and if you stay in your own lane Just keep pretending that there's no one else on the freeway.
There's no one else on the high.
Yeah, you're just going your own speed You know what speed would you be going on the freeway if you didn't know how fast the other cars were going And it's kind of like go that speed.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I like that and I like this advice of Unfollowing people that make you that start to Warp the way that you're seeing yourself um because one advice that I've been getting and even with like the networking episode that we just did Is follow these people who inspire you and that are doing the work that you want to do and watch how they're doing it And I'm in that same boat if it's it's hard to look at them and be like oh, why can't I do something like that?
I've been trying to Change the narrative in my head of like wow.
I really liked how they did that I wonder how I could do that in a different or in like my own way and just really utilize them as inspiration That's actually really interesting.
So I hadn't told that Ah, this is such an exciting conversation because like I said this is something that goes through my head all the time Hmm.
I'm just curious now that you have Dip your toes in both worlds What would you say to anyone who is thinking of doing what you just did?
Honestly the one thing I would say is that It's a hundred percent worth it like the risk is a hundred percent worth it And I can only speak for my personal experience obviously But I'm so glad that I went through those moments of feeling really uncomfortable and really unsure And even continue to this day to feel that way because the Benefit and upside of that is so much more beautiful like you have all this time To do something you really love Is there anything that you wish you knew before starting this journey?
Be prepared for days where You wish for the comfort of the nine to five Um, that's it's like a breakup That's like you still miss like the previous security Yeah, you can miss the relationship And then with time you feel better You meet new people and everything kind of falls into place So no regrets no regrets No regrets Hopefully you know what that's from or I've just like Yeah, I do know where that's from I I thought it was no regrets Gemma this has been so much fun and I'm so glad to hear how everything Turned out in that even through the scary parts It's really still all fun and worth it and exciting This was definitely the right decision for you and it shows thank you so much Alini I am dying to know in talking with Gemma What did she say about working for yourself that changed your mind about what this would be like?
I wasn't surprised about the loneliness that she was feeling But I was surprised of how quickly she found a community She found the two other podcasters and all three of them got their own space So it was like replacing that community that she had in her corporate full-time job And she now gets to start it here I was surprised about the imposter syndrome Yeah, like I feel like when you make the decision It's so aligned to your core that like I want to focus on my side gig I feel like that takes a lot of guts to do But even then when you're in it you still feel scared and you start to compare yourself And she did mention that this show is really ingrained in her identity And once you compare your show to others It's really easy to compare yourself But I'm really I like how she Thought about what gets her out of that mindset Yeah, I really I when I heard her say that I was like right self-doubt follows us everywhere Yeah, yeah, you can escape the new condition So Amy I bet that point Resonated with you because you made that lead to you went from a full-time structured job To more of an independent existence.
Yeah, what did it make you think about?
It's 20 years ago now that I actually started working for myself I've always sort of kept more steady gigs in the mix But I essentially run my own business and like Gemma and I mean so much of what she said resonated Particularly about the self-doubt no matter how long you've been doing it no matter how much praise or work or You know reinforcement you get you do always wonder Did I do the right thing?
Should I be you know, especially when most of your friends are in full-time jobs You always think, well, you know, should I be doing that?
So that that really resonated I think the other point is like The idea that a full-time job is somehow more secure and I'm putting secure in air quotes It's sort of a farce right like working for yourself.
Yes. Of course it's scary When are your advertisers gonna pull out when are you gonna get your next gig all of that is nerve-racking But the idea that a full-time job is like never gonna go away or never gonna change is just not true.
Yeah I also wondered about you know, she said that she she thought she would miss the structure of a full-time job Yeah, there's a lot of structure.
Yeah Yeah, working for yourself, right?
Yeah, yeah, you just have to make it and she said she and I mean she mentioned two boundaries that she made Which is not working on weekends and not checking her phone right in the morning in regards to the podcast Yeah, but she mentioned that like she does not she didn't really take much from her old corporate job with her Yeah, so but she did miss it sometimes and she missed the people especially in those moments of loneliness Yeah It makes sense why you would miss that old structure because it's comfort Yet this conversation about structure reminds me that we did an episode back in 2021 called keep the challenges of freelancing and check where our former co-host Emily Caughfield talked to two researchers who look at freelancing and they talked a lot about The like practices and routines that you need to like help keep yourself focused productive And like continuing to develop as a professional Wait, Alini actually I think you pitched that episode to us.
I think so I really am interested in freelancing and just the gig economy because it's a different world Well congratulations on the show Alini and on your first full season And what happens if people want to get in touch how do they do that to contact us you can email us at new here at hbr.org Listen to us wherever you get your podcasts make sure you like and follow us.
I know I'm following are you in I am Alini is so great to see you I rarely actually get to sit in the same room with you But it's wonderful to know that I can listen to you and your beautiful Professionally trained voice whenever I want to thank you
