This BBC podcast is supported by the UK.
I'm Scott Hanson, host of NFL Red Zone.
Lowe's knows Sundays hit different when you earn them.
We've got you covered with outdoor power equipment from Cobalt and everything you need to weatherproof your deck with Trex Decking.
Plus, with lawn care from Scott's and, of course, Pit Boss grills and accessories, you can get a home field advantage all season long.
So get to Lowe's, get it done, and earn your Sunday.
Lowe's, official partner of the NFL.
This is Jacob Goldstein from What's Your Problem?
When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing.
Odoo solves this.
It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales.
Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way.
You can save money without missing out on the features you need.
Check out Odoo at odoo.com.
That's odoo.com.
The trillion dollar hack, what cybercrime's really costing us.
Cyber attacks have been on the rise for a number of years and it's costing us billions.
We're a small company, you know, we don't employ hundreds.
So the people on the shop floor, they're not numbers, they are people.
The real risk are the high profile breaches.
Welcome to World Business Report from the BBC World Service.
I'm Sam Fenwick.
In Japan, shelves could soon run dry after a cyber attack shut down most of Asahi's breweries.
But it's not just beer.
Today we're looking at what cyber attacks are really costing businesses around the world.
And from potential beer shortages to a battle for the country's top job.
Japan is about to get a new prime minister.
We'll take a look at who's in the running.
So, from car makers to supermarkets and even children's nurseries, businesses around the world have been counting the cost of cyber attacks this year.
Estimates suggest global cybercrime will cost businesses around $10.5 trillion in 2025.
Some forecasts put that figure even higher.
Once lost revenue, downtime occurs and regulatory fines have been included.
Japan's Asahi Breweries is among the latest companies to fall victim.
Let's talk now to Yoko Ishikura.
She is Professor Emeritus at Hitosabashi University and a member of the World Economic Forum's expert network.
She joins us from...
Tokyo.
Yoko, thanks for joining us.
You're welcome.
In terms of reputational damage and operational damage.
How serious is this cyber attack for this brewery?
Oh, this is very, very serious, particularly so because it was found out on Monday and it's been four days and it hasn't been resolved at all.
And I think Asahi is losing.
They don't have retail stores as well as the institutional restaurants, and things are running out of Asahi super dry.
So that's a major, major issue.
And I think it's what matters is because it takes forever.
And cybersecurity in Japan overall is not as far from being adequate.
And so we have been talking about that.
But as a matter of fact, this is what happened.
And we suffer.
I mean, you know, people do suffer.
I understand that 30 of the group's factories have had to close basically since Monday, as you said, and haven't been producing any beer.
Japan has seen a rise in ransomware cases and has even passed tougher laws in response.
Yes.
Why are its companies seen as so attractive, do you think, to hackers?
I think because the cybersecurity measures by the Japanese companies are not that adequate, even though we did pass the law.
So it's still – we have quite a few cases, and yet, when it comes to what do you do after it, you get attacked.
It's not –
I don't think it's very well established yet.
Okay, well, it's not just in Japan.
In the UK, operations at one of the country's biggest retailers, Marks & Spencers, were disrupted for months.
The company says that its attack on online services has cost them around $400 million.
Jaguar Land Rover has also been forced to halt production after its systems were also hit, and the impact of that has rippled across the supply chain.
Michael Bees runs a car parts company.
70 of his output goes to JLR and he told me that the shutdown has had a devastating effect on his business.
So we haven't been able to produce items now for what is a month, essentially.
The factory is looking very quiet.
Obviously, we've had to lay off staff because of the downturn in production requirements.
We have a skeleton staff in there, so we do have customers that we are servicing for other industries and other companies.
But obviously with JLR being such a proportion of us, we've had to reduce that down quite a lot.
And how's that hit your bottom line?
It's hit it quite hard to be honest with you because obviously what our issue is, it's not just hit the bottom line, it's causing cash flow issues as well.
So we are going to see a difference in our figures as we go forward.
Have you been able to go to the bank?
Have they been able to offer you any help?
So I've been out to the banks and I've been into commercial lending to try and secure some funding for these.
What I'm being told is I can get funding.
No problem getting that.
But I'm having to pay very high interest rates, talking 16%.
And obviously, because of the uncertainty, what they're asking me to do is put a personal guarantee against that loan as well.
So if something's happened to me, I'd have to pay back personally all that money, which I personally feel is unfair.
That I have to put that forward, because why should I have to put something that's not my fault?
You know, if I was to seek funding for my business, I wanted to grow the business, not to try and get the doors open because of other things.
So is that just completely unworkable, one of those loans?
You just can't take it on?
No, it's not going to work for us at all.
And this is my problem really is that we need support from the government to try and back those loans.
So we've got something to put in place.
Now the UK government has guaranteed £15 billion of a private loan to JLR to help their suppliers and to help them kind of bridge this challenging period.
Can you not get any of that?
Personally, I've not seen any of the details about the JLR loan.
I do think it's fantastic that the government have backed the JLR.
JLR are a crown jewel for the West Midlands and it's pride in me that we work for that company.
We do work for JLR, but we are not seeing access to that money at the moment.
From what I do understand, the idea is that JLR can use that money to cascade down through the tiers, but obviously, with what they've been through, it's been a difficult time for them, so that payments are taking a little bit longer than what we'd expect them to be.
Have you got any insurance against cyber attacks and the impact that they could have on your business?
We do actually pay for business interruption insurance that covers cyber attacks.
However, when you speak to the insurance companies, what they're saying is because it's a third party that's had the cyber attack.
So because JLive had the cyber attack, I haven't got a claim, which I personally feel a bit unfair behind because it's easily interruption to my business.
How difficult is it then at the moment?
Can you try and sum it up?
I can sense the kind of frustration in your voice.
It's tough times.
The frustration is being held back a little bit because we've got to try and look at this in a pragmatic approach.
Yes, I'm very frustrated, I'm very angry and obviously it's very stressful as well.
But what I'd like to say as well is for my staff.
We're a small company, you know.
We don't employ hundreds.
So the people on the shop floor and the people that work with me, they're not numbers, they are people.
They've got families and I know their families as well.
So it's very hurtful as well.
It's very hurtful for them, you mean?
I think for both.
Yeah.
How long can you keep going then in this current situation?
We've got a period of time in front of us that we can go for, but obviously things are changing daily, so how long we go for depends on what news we're hearing as things go.
It's amazing, isn't it really, when you think about it, that a cyber attack can have shut down all of these businesses related to JLR for a month.
It is.
We don't know the ins and outs of what systems have taken, and it's not really our business to know that.
But obviously what it has done is it has created a detrimental effect on JLR, which then subsequently goes out through the supply chain.
Obviously, JLR bring a lot to the British economy.
But so do the businesses underneath that.
And I think this is a wider thing, really.
So the attack that they've received has definitely caused problems for the UK economy.
That was Michael Bees from Gen Z, a supply company into Jaguar Land Rover.
Listening to that is Lisa Black, who was formerly a senior advisor at the New York State Division of Homeland Security and is now a consultant on technology and cybersecurity issues.
Lisa, thanks for being with us.
When you hear about these attacks, like the one on the brewery in Japan, like the one on Marks and Spencer's in the UK and Jaguar Land Rover.
What strikes you most?
Well, Sam, the reality is that everyone's a target.
It doesn't matter how big you are, how small you are.
You are a target and you should assume that you will experience an attack.
It really is just a matter of when.
Are businesses too complacent, do you think, about the risks of cyber attacks?
Well, I don't think it's a matter of complacency.
I think it is a matter of resiliency.
Threat actors don't make themselves known, you know, for sometimes weeks or months.
They do reconnaissance and they're there and companies really need to be constantly threat hunting.
They need to plan.
You know, like our guest just said, you need to plan for your contingencies, how you're going to run your operation.
You need to test your security controls and ensure that the disruption is going to be minimal.
We know that cyber attacks are happening all the time, that businesses are being attacked and trying to sort of bat them off, if you like.
Why are we having such high profile ones at the moment?
Well, I think the media always likes to cover these, right?
Anything that's sensational, that has an effect, they like to cover the victim.
I like to say you know, as a former government who experienced a cyber attack or ransomware attack, we are survivors, right.
But it's not uncommon for people to try and expose the faults.
And the fact is exposure is the start of a collaboration.
And I think exposing these things and sharing some of those vulnerabilities actually makes you more resilient in the long run.
You mentioned that you led the Unified Command response for a major ransomware attack on Suffolk County in 2022.
What did you learn from that experience?
Well, I think I learned a lot more.
The journey was really the maturity that our government needed at that time, albeit a punch in the gut at the time.
I think you have to be always ready for a changing environment.
You have to pivot to make sure your operations can facilitate your mission.
You have to have redundancies if something's not working, like the internet for example.
Figure out a way to get your job done.
We all existed in the 19 well, not we all, but I certainly did existed in the 1980s and 90s, when we didn't have computers to do the work.
And technology has been something that has certainly brought us forward, but we need to be a little bit more resilient.
And companies should be thinking about that too in their C-suite conversations.
Just briefly.
And finally, we said that there's research out there which estimates the global cost to businesses reaching 105 trillion by the end of this year.
That's a global figure.
Is that an underestimate or is that about right, do you think?
You know, I think it's really hard to put a number on the cost of your reputational harm.
And that's a figure that will never be allocated in that dollar amount.
And, you know, we just have to worry about how that affects and the emotional response to that.
And I think you can add that to the cost.
So if that's what you mean, $10 trillion is a lot of money.
But the emotional cost of this is much more severe.
Lisa Black, thank you very much for joining us.
Former Senior Advisor at the New York State Division of Homeland Security.
You ever feel that deep pull to the land, to know it, to build something that lasts, that itch for your own wild country?
Well, it ain't just a daydream.
In 2025, it matters more than ever.
Whether you're a lifelong hunter or just starting out, dreaming of land to explore, to leave something real, or there is a trailhead where you can start.
It's called land.com. the biggest online network for rural property.
Find the right agent and explore everything from timber tracks to ranches.
Get the tools you need to buy that dream generational property.
Stop dreaming about it and head to land.com.
It's your place to find your open space.
This is Jacob Goldstein from What's Your Problem?
When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing.
Odoo solves this.
It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales.
Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way.
You can save money without missing out on the features you need.
Check out Odoo at odoo.com.
That's odoo.com.
You're listening to World Business Report from the BBC World Service with me, Sam Fennec.
Now Donald Trump is weighing up cutting thousands of federal jobs as the White House ramps up pressure on the Democrats to end a government shutdown, now in its second day.
Now he's due to meet with his budget director, Russell Vogt, who's long argued for a shrinking in the size of government.
Well, is that even possible?
Let's talk to Walter Todd, President and Chief Investment Officer at Greenwood Capital in South Carolina.
What do you think, then, Is this is just more threats to try and put pressure on the Democrats?
Or is there a possibility that more government departments could be cut?
Yeah, good evening.
I think it's a little bit of both.
Honestly, I think if we've learned anything from this administration, they act first and ask permission later.
So I think, as you mentioned, the OMB director, Russell Vought, believes that there's broad authority during a shutdown to permanently release workers.
And I think the estimates right now are about 750,000 will be furloughed, which would be temporary.
But some you know they're trying to make some portion of those permanent layoffs within the government.
And I think it's both a threat to try to get the Democrats to the table, but also a wish to be able to shrink government employment.
I've seen the price of gold rise a lot over the last year and a lot over the last few days because of the shutdown.
What other ripple effects is this having on the economy?
Yeah, well, honestly, the biggest one is the lack of government data from an investor standpoint.
So we're supposed to get a big jobs payroll report tomorrow here.
We're not going to get that.
We got a private report on that yesterday, which showed a loss of jobs.
So Investors are kind of flying blind here in terms of government data until the shutdown ends.
But, as you mentioned, you have seen kind of a risk-off asset or a protection asset like gold rally, about 15 in the past month in the buildup to the shutdown.
So we'll see how that continues to play out.
I wanted to ask you about OpenAI, because it's reached a valuation of 500 billion, and that makes it the world's most profitable, or valuable, at least, private company.
And it knocked Elon Musk's SpaceX off the top spot.
Just explain how they managed to reach that valuation.
Yeah, so the slip of the tongue profitable is funny because they don't make any money, but yet they're valued at half a trillion dollars.
So that's kind of interesting.
But So this round of funding, they allowed some of the employees of the company to sell some of their shares.
And that's where they got the valuation for the company.
Now, this is interesting because Sam Altman and Elon Musk, there's no love loss there.
So I'm sure it kind of irks Elon Musk that Sam Altman's company is now larger than his SpaceX company.
Yeah, very highly competitive.
Thank you very much, Walter Todd, for joining us today on the program.
Now a liquefied natural gas platform.
Once hailed as a boost for Senegal's economy is now at the centre of controversy.
The facility, mainly run by the British oil and gas giant BP, was built on the maritime border with Mauritania after a major gas discovery there in 2015.
But the fishing city of St Louis.
Locals there are now saying that the project has disrupted their trade and has cost lots of jobs, as our reporter, Pauline Paul Njea, has been finding out.
In this one's busy fish market in St.
Louis, the bustle is gradually fading away.
Locals say it's because fishing, the main economic activity of the more than 250000 people who live here, is on the decline.
To find out what's changed.
I'm hopping on a canoe and accompanying local fishermen to the sea.
Ten kilometres offshore, I'm struck by the sight of a giant liquefied natural gas platform run by the British multinational oil and gas company BP and its partners.
25-year-old fisherman Gora Fowl tells me access to the platform built on the natural reef where they mostly got their fish is restricted.
But BP says safety zones around infrastructure are standard practice to protect people and assets.
After nearly an hour of fishing within a 500-metre limit, Fowl's catch is nothing to be proud of.
We are frustrated because before, from noon, we were satisfied with the catch made.
But now we can stay until 4pm, twiddling our thumbs without fish.
The fisherman has brought me to a place on the sea which he says BP plans to erect an artificial reef to attract fish.
But according to him and several other fishermen I've spoken to, the area is highly unfavorable because it lies just four kilometers away from the coastline.
After spending time at sea, we return to land to meet with representatives of the local fishermen's association.
Seated by the seashore under a shelter made of sticks.
The spokesperson, Nala Diop, tells me they don't believe in BP's promise to build the artificial reef.
When they came in 2019, they told people we are going to build you eight artificial reefs to at least replace our diatara, which is the natural reef.
They said it, written in black and white, in 2019.
From 2019 to 2025, nothing has been done.
It's been six years.
However, in a statement to the BBC, BP said it is building an artificial reef complex with 10 clusters within it.
It added that work is already underway, as the reef is expected to be completed by the end of this year.
Regarding concerns about the site chosen to host the reef complex, the multinational said a technical assessment concluded that a cluster of reef pyramids in one location allows more effective management and protection of that reef.
But uncertainty is growing and the community believes the entire supply chain is reeling from the impact of the scarcity of fish.
To BP, though, concerns about Senegal's fishing stocks predate the gas project.
Another fear is that marine life could become endangered following a gas leak witnessed in the sea last February.
Bipi said it acted in a swift and transparent manner when the incident happened.
But Mamadou Ba, an ocean campaigner with the environmental NGO Greenpeace Africa, doesn't quite agree.
It's not an accident because in the environmental impact study normally this type of disaster is taken into account and there are mitigation measures.
Staying for a month or a month and a half to find a solution means the environmental impact study was not very serious.
So we can't describe this as an incident.
It's a disaster.
BP has already begun exporting liquefied natural gas.
Onshore, though, the people of St.
Louis now wonder what the future holds.
That was Paul and Jaya reporting there from Senegal.
Now we're going to head back to Japan to end the programme, where the ruling Liberal Democrat Party is choosing its next leader and, with it, the country's next prime minister.
Now there are five lawmakers in the race and the economy is top of the agenda.
So who are they and what are they promising?
Our Asia business correspondent, Sharanjana Tiwari, has been finding out.
Voters in Japan are unhappy mostly with the persistently high cost of living, especially for goods.
That frustration has already cost the ruling LDP its majority in Parliament.
And so candidates vying to lead the party next have been prioritising how they might give relief to households.
Whoever wins faces an uphill battle, though.
They'll have to restore public trust by offering economic support while also reining in government spending.
Japan already has the industrial world's heaviest debt at more than twice the size of its economy.
The five contenders have so far kept their distance from calls for tax cuts.
That's offered some relief to the finance ministry, which estimates that scrapping the tax on food alone would cost it nearly 27 billion annually.
Instead, those running have proposed various income tax reforms aimed at boosting take home pay.
But details on exactly how the proposed economic measures will be funded remain thin.
The candidates have pointed to increased tax revenues because of record high corporate earnings in recent years.
Japan Inc. seems to be strong for now.
One contender, Sanae Takaichi, who could make history as Japan's first female prime minister, has said she would issue additional government bonds if necessary.
Again, though, that will be an issue for Japan's heavy debt burden.
So who is popular with voters?
Personally, I prefer Koizumi, but looking at the bigger picture, I think Takaichi is probably the better choice.
The LPD is rotting from within, so it's about time for a reset.
So if Takaichi joins, do you think that this would improve the image of the LDP?
I think it might get a little better but honestly, unless we remove the rotten parts of it, it won't really change.
Let's talk to Yoko Ishikora again.
We heard from her earlier in the programme.
She's Professor Emeritus at Hitoshi Bashi University and a member of the World Economic Forum's expert network.
We mentioned there a few of the candidates and their policies.
How much does this leadership race really matter for Japan's economy and for ordinary people?
I think it does, because you know the price has been going up and inflation.
We have a little bit of worry about the inflation and things.
And so economics.
I think the people who vote are going to be very concerned about the economics or economic status condition of their own.
So I think it makes a lot of difference.
And that's why the candidates are fighting today. on that issue.
And is there much between them?
Because they're all part of the same party, aren't they?
And the LDP has dominated Japanese politics for decades.
So how far are they kind of veering off party politics to try and win this vote?
I think it remains to be seen because it's going to be three-way runoff or two-way runoff.
And we have three major sort of candidates with the most votes so far.
And we don't know what's going to happen.
Which two are going to go off to runoff because nobody has taken the majority of the parliamentary members' vote as well as party members' vote.
OK, so how does it work then?
Is it party members?
LDP party members will vote on the next leader, who will then become the next prime minister and leader of the country.
Well, the total number of members of the parliament who voted, as well as a member of party overall, which is the same, you know, 295 each, with a total of 590.
So that's going to be decided.
And we don't really know as of now who is leading this. overall.
So we'll see what happens.
I want to bring Walter Todd back into the conversation from Greenwood Capital.
How important is this for the global economy?
You know, is the rest of the world watching this election, Walter?
Yeah, I think so.
You know, Japan's tied with India for the fourth largest economy in the world.
The stock market there is up 20 percent, at least in U.S. dollar terms.
So strategic partner with the U.S.
So I think there's a lot of focus on this.
But I just want to say real quickly that this is emblematic of what we've seen around the world.
We saw the same dynamic in Germany where kind of the longstanding ruling party, you just see this disruption and economic uncertainty creates political instability.
I think is kind of the theme there.
Yoko, in your opinion, what kind of leaders does Japan need right now?
I think we need a leader with a clear vision and realistic economic reform, rather than just talking about it.
And do you think we will see, you know them, kind of addressing that high cost of living which Surinjana talked about in her report?
Yeah, I'm pretty sure because that's the concern of the public.
So unless you talk about that, it's going to be quite difficult.
But at the same time, I think it depends upon how the new prime minister will negotiate with Trump.
And what's the atmosphere like in Japan at the moment?
Is there a sense of excitement, a sense of kind of change coming?
It's sort of low-key expectancy for the change.
So it's not going to be that lively, you know, the election itself.
And everybody talks about it, but when it comes to you know, is it going to make a big difference or not?
It remains to be seen.
Yoko Ishikawa, thank you so much for joining us today on World Business Report.
Thank you also to Walter Todd and all of the guests.
Thank you to you for listening.
America is changing, and so is the world.
But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval.
It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C.
I'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is The Global Story.
Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection, where the world and America meet.
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
