You're listening to Roundtable. I'm Steve Hatherly.
Together today with Nyo Hong Lin and Yusha.
Coming up as America's love affair with spicy food deepens from ghost pepper snacks to habanero laced cocktails.
How does this newfound heat measure up against the sophisticated, centuries-old fire of China's Sichuan and Hunan cuisines?
After that, we have another audio clip for Roundtable's Heart to Heart.
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And now America's food culture and Canada's food culture, I think we can throw Canada into this as well, has long been known as being mild and, dare I say, bland.
But a new trend is setting the culinary world on fire.
From restaurant menus to home kitchens, chili peppers and bold flavors are appearing.
Everywhere. Is it a shift? Is it a fad? Is it a reflection of a change, a deeper change in people's palates?
There's some interesting history behind the previous aversion to heat that we'll talk about briefly.
And I think it's interesting too what's driving... this new obsession as well as kind of the fascinating science behind why we crave the burn of spicy food when sometimes some days you just want that heat so badly. and also how food companies are adapting to people's changing palates too.
Lots to discuss. But straight to it. I'm from Canada.
Yuxuan, you're from China. But I'll ask you, why is Western food so bland?
Well, thanks for asking. That makes me knowledgeable.
But anyway, I believe there are several reasons to these kind of...
Phenomenon. And one way to say it is it didn't always used to be.
In fact, For centuries spices were incredibly valuable, a sign of wealth and also status.
So the upper classes would use them liberally in their cooking, but when trade routes made spices more accessible to everyone in the 17th century, the elite sought a new way to differentiate themselves.
And then... They began to favor dishes that showcased the natural or pure flavors of the ingredients.
Casting aside the old heavily spiced dishes that anyone could now afford, huh?
Yeah and that kind of culinary snobbery, if you will, from the elite of the 1600s.
It took the spice. out of European cuisine for hundreds of years and out of Canada's and America's cuisine as well.
That's from NPR from about a decade ago.
I thought that was such an interesting thing because I'm from the West.
I never, ever knew that before. yeah and as i said i i believe there are several reasons to it so i i think entirely i don't think it is entirely due to like class reasons like flavor of a region's food I don't think that can be only decided by one like class of people like I think that could be close connected to Like cultural aspect, geographical aspect, a place that can grow out chili peppers or that kind of thing.
Yeah, in the northern part of the United States and Canada. chili peppers don't naturally grow there, right?
So that means if they don't naturally grow there, you'd have to import them. and incorporate it into your food culture that way.
And it didn't really happen. Canadian food as well is really not known to be spicy.
People often ask me, Steve, what's Canadian food?
And I don't really know the difference because Canada and America share so many cultural similarities.
The differences, I think, it's just my opinion, but I think the cultural differences between Canada and America, broadly speaking, are quite subtle.
The people are quite similar, I believe.
The food, the further into the south in the United States that you get, that's where the heat will start to come out a little bit, right?
And you'll get more variations in temperatures.
But in the northern part of the United States, in Canada, it's pretty similar food.
And it's very, I mean, I used the word bland there, tongue in cheek, but that is kind of the complaint here. especially after you've become accustomed to spicy food.
When you eat Canadian food or some foods from the States, it was considered bland.
Well, as for China... We are famous for our food culture, for sure.
And spicy food accounts for a major part of it.
And it's around 400 years ago since we started to welcoming the beautiful ingredient of pepper and different types of pepper.
And in the very beginning, the idea was that salt was considered something very valuable in life.
It's important to health. It's definitely important for different dishes if you want to make them tastier.
Or preserve them. or preserve them. And yet, for ordinary people, for the grassroots, salt is not always as accessible as today.
So when people discovered, or more precisely, when pepper is introduced to China, they use pepper. as a substitute or a replacement to salt.
And that leads to the popularization of pepper.
But definitely we realize that this plant is easy to grow here in China.
It's also very tasty. Little by little, it started to be very, very popular here in the country.
Yeah. If you're wondering the reasons why You know, American food is now in the news for getting spicier or North American food, Canada and America anyway.
There's a growing multiculturalism, I think, that has introduced new food flavors. to a wider audience of people.
I think with younger generations, they might be more interested Adventurous perhaps in their in their dining.
I'm not sure if that's fair to say, but I feel like that's a safe statement the diversity is on display in cities like Toronto.
And Canadians, we're very, very, very, very proud of the fact that Canada is... one of the most diverse countries in the world in Toronto. is one of the most diverse cities on the planet.
Toronto, Canada has citizens from 230 different countries from around the world living in the city. speaking 140 different languages.
Wow. So imagine, yeah, it's amazing. It's awesome.
It's awesome. That's the way that we view it.
How do you communicate with this? Well, I think the point here – and there's statistics on that too –
Canada has a population of about 37, 38 million or something like that, but only 50, 50, roughly 50% are native English speakers.
That's it. We're very diverse in our languages too.
But the point here is that when you have that diversity existing in a city, you're going to see it reflected in the foods available as well, right?
Yeah. That's kind of the cultural aspect.
But why is it? I mentioned it when we started this that we crave it sometimes.
People who like spicy food, we crave it sometimes.
What's the science behind that? So, first of all, we have to acknowledge that spicy is a is a painful stimulus.
It's not a taste. It's a feeling. Yeah, it's a feeling.
Our bodies respond to the capsaicin as if it's a painful stimulus and spicy food contains this capsaicin, which is a compound in chili peppers that binds to pain receptors in our mouths.
When activated, they send a burning signal to the brain even with no physical damage. and similar to touching a hot stove.
Oh, your brain feels the same reaction as if you touch a hot stove.
Yeah, in your mouth. Oh, interesting. Interesting.
So in response, the brain releases endorphins, natural painkillers that create euphoria and pleasure, that kind of thing.
And then maybe you can get addictive. There's that word again.
Remember a roundtable we once had the topic of once you watch a video to X, you cannot go back?
I think it's similar. Once the spicy taste is brought to the entire world here, I'm talking about here in China, brought to the entire country because people migrant workers from Sichuan or Hunan those provinces that are traditionally famous for their delicious spicy cuisine when the people bring their home food to all around the country.
When the transportation is getting easier, these people flow out and start doing business all around China, bring their food and start Sichuan cuisine restaurants.
Those who have never been exposed to this flavor started to have it and They cannot go back, like a 2X video.
Yeah, that little pepper, that little peppercorn from Sichuan province.
Oh, that's a sneaky one. That's different.
Peppercorn? Yeah, it's a little... If you eat malatang, right?
It's those little tiny things that are hiding in the soup.
That gives you a taste of... It doesn't taste like anything.
You just can't feel your face. It's a weird... That's called numb.
It's totally different from... spice in korea it's different which is very spicy food as well at times different from mexican spice that i've experienced or indian spice this This mala flavor from this little peppercorn, when you eat it, you can't.
You literally can't feel your lips. So I don't like it.
I know. Right. But the reason I don't like it has nothing to do with flavor.
It's that I can't. I can't. Feel my lips in my tongue anymore.
It's a very strange sensation My dad used to put a lot of these things are dishes and whenever I chew it I
If you're a newcomer to China, don't chew them.
I would rather chew the bowl. And that's the thing.
For some, it's the thing that you have to avoid.
But for others, again, you have never exposed to it.
They love it. They get addicted to it. And I kind of feel like it's the same situation in North America.
That is when people are exposed to different choices of food, different Different types of spicy choices of food.
They love it. It's relative, right? It's relative.
For example, like spicy chicken wings. That'll be a popular Western dish.
But the spice that comes from chicken wings often is more... acidic more vinegary than it is on the spicy side that's just my opinion of course you can get like volcano level wings if you want to but the average dish isn't that hot, because if you're not used to it, that's still spicy for you, right?
Has Chinese food always been spicy, though?
Because in my experience around, you know, going around and trying different dishes, not everything's spicy here.
Not by a long shot, right? Yeah. One thing is that China has so many different types of cuisines, and that is why they will have different styles of taste.
And also chili peppers were not native to China and only arrived after the age of discovery, which is like around 15th to 17th century. and entering the country by the late Ming Dynasty, which means China's real history of eating chili peppers is likely less than 400 years.
But, Before that adoption of chili peppers, Chinese cooking already embraced... a lot of spiciness through indigenous ingredients such as huajiao that you mentioned that makes your lips numb.
Ginger, zhu yu, mustard seeds, and garlic.
So these things are creating different types of sensation. of being spicy or numb.
And it wasn't until 19th century that chili peppers began appearing in culinary records. and also gaining popularity, especially in southwest China, regions like, as you mentioned, Sichuan, Hunan, Hubei, and Guizhou province. embraced chili as a staple condiment, with Hunanese known for their love of chili powder and Sichuanese developing the famous mala flavor by combining the chili heat with huajiao's numbing sensation.
Oh my gosh. Let's just make everything hotter then. fair to say the further south you go in in china the hotter the food will get not exactly it's more like different types of spiciness like you said some are numbing and spicy some are sweet and spicy salty and spicy and different types of spiciness and it's like in the age of internet you want instant stimulus and pepper can give you that as well in the culinary world.
Back to America, that recent report I mentioned, this is what they found.
Over half of American consumers are likely to buy a spicy item when shopping up from 39% in 2015.
So what's that? About an 11% increase in about a decade's time.
And that has led. to a big industry shift with a staggering they say 19 out of every 20 restaurants in America now offering at least one spicy item. and a leading chef, his name was Frank Stitt, he said, it's not just about fire anymore, it's about flavor.
And I found this to be kind of an interesting kind of change in Western food because when we think And I agree with this.
When we think about Western food, we think, oh, it's bland.
It doesn't have any spices. But apparently those times are changing now, which I think is a change for the better. because i am a big fan do you guys even like spicy food very much very much yeah actually i don't oh you don't like it no and i'm halfway in between i think yeah I love it.
Now I'm in the mood for something spicy.
We'll take a break. And when we come back, we'll get to roundtables heart to heart.
You ask. We answer. Roundtable. Heart to heart.
Vera, if you are listening, then turn up your volume because today's Heart to Heart clip is from you.
Hello, everyone. This is Vera. I feel very excited to record this message because this is my first time to support or get involved in the podcast show that I love the most.
All of you can offer very deep and insightful thoughts to certain social events which I can learn a lot from.
I've been working as a primary school English teacher for three years.
One thing concerns me the most is how students learn English after school.
Parents would put their children into the English institution to learn 新概念原版 reading like Think and Power Up, but in a relatively fast speed.
At the fourth grade, in our textbook, the students are expected to learn the present tense.
But the students who attend 新概念 class, they might be learning the past simple tense too based on their speed.
They just learn too much ahead. That causes some side effects.
These institutions are teaching the English grammar in Chinese, which Chinese grammar is nothing like English.
So automatically this will confuse students at the age of 11
If I ask a student, hey, do you like something?
Because I'm teaching them the usage of like.
They will just answer me with, yes, I like.
It's just confusing because in Chinese, we do say 是的,我喜欢, but in English, we have a standard way of saying, yes, I do.
And another thing is after learning a lot in these institutions, the students just find it easy in our textbooks. which leads them pay less attention in learning English in our English class.
Do you think kids should learn English beforehand?
If so, how much should they learn would be the best for the kids?
That's all. Thank you for your listening.
I'm really looking forward to your reply.
Thank you, Vera, for the message. Yeah, it's an interesting situation, right?
Vera, you're a primary school teacher. You've got 10, 11 year old kids who are learning more outside the school at institutes then the level you are teaching in the classroom, it's frustrating for you because they're coming in with more knowledge than they're supposed to have at that age.
Is it a bathing? Okay, go on. Yeah, because she was exactly asking that question.
And I've also actually worked in the education sector, so I completely understand that point.
Uh, and actually a lot of extra curricular, like that these training agencies they're offering are. trying to make kids learn beforehand.
Give them the edge. Yeah, so the right timing really depends on the child's age or interest or capacity.
A good approach is to like balance structured classroom learning with fun, engaging active activity as a home or in extracurricular classes. enough to spark curiosity, but not that much to like drain, that it drains their motivation.
At the same time, I think it also depends on the child's personality or the guidance from their teachers and parents.
Because I've seen kids who, even if they've already studied the material, they still pay full attention in class.
So that I think really depends on the children and also one of the goals behind China's double reduction policy, which aims to reduce excessive homework and off-campus tutoring. so that children can focus more effectively during regular school time.
Well, in my opinion, you're asking essentially two questions.
The first one being what to do with bad teachers outside of my classroom who are feeding kids wrong or not enough knowledge to confuse them and that is is a problem need to be solved by the parent of the kid because I am now a parent and I don't think I would refuse all of the extracurriculum classes in my kids future because every kid would have different interests.
And if they're interested in a certain subject, you cannot refuse the temptation to give them the possibility of getting in touch with more knowledge on that subject.
And the second thing, whether or not it's a good thing to learn things in advance.
I fully agree with Yu Xun that a different kid would have different scenarios.
And for a teacher, if I think for a teacher, you cannot deal with the situation based on different kid, but you can deal with the situation based on the situation in different classes.
With over 50% of kids finding the material simple, you set them apart.
Some can continue learning the information you want them to learn.
And some can, I don't know, watch an English movie or something.
No. You're going to divide your class and say you guys go watch a movie while the rest of the kids study this difficult grammar?
I might do that. There'll be a revolt in your classroom.
The kids will hate that. Anyway. Vera, thanks for the message.
Unfortunately, we're out of time for today's roundtable.
Thank you so much for sharing your time with us today.
Thanks to Yuxin and Yeohong Lin. I'm Steve, and please do come back again next time.
