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Hey, dear sugar listeners, this is Anne -Marie Sievertson, host of WBUR's Beyond All Repair and co -host of Endless Thread.
And I'm here to share something special with you this week.
We're bringing you a powerful and deeply personal episode of the new miniseries, The C -Word, Stories of Cancer, from Say More, a podcast from the Boston Globe.
In this episode, host and award -winning columnist Shirley Leung talks for the first time about her breast cancer diagnosis.
She talks about the moment she learned the news, how she navigated the physical and emotional toll of treatment, and what it meant to keep this part of her life private until now.
It's an honest and intimate conversation about illness, identity, and the complexity of choosing when and how to tell your story, especially as a public figure.
Shirley's reflections are brave and vulnerable, and they're a powerful reminder of just how much strength it takes to be seen.
I'm not going to give away too much about the episode, but if you like what you hear, don't forget to follow Say More on your favorite podcast app, and you can listen to the complete miniseries on their feed right now.
But for now, let's get into the full episode.
Welcome to Say More from Boston Globe Opinion.
I'm Shirley Leung. This is the first episode of our series, The C -Word, Stories of Cancer.
When I was diagnosed with cancer, it's like I was waiting for it my entire life.
Because when I was 12, my mom's mom, my waipo, died of breast cancer.
I watched my chubby -cheeked grandma waste away after chemotherapy and a double mastectomy.
She, like me, had been diagnosed with breast cancer in her 40s.
But unlike me, she didn't have the advantage of early detection.
In the 70s, there were no annual mammograms. She found the lump herself, and by then, the cancer had spread.
Wai Pua was only 55 when she passed away in 1984.
She had fled Mao's communist China, but couldn't outrun cancer.
Back then, it was like the Dark Ages.
A diagnosis felt like a death sentence.
For the next month on Say More, we'll be sharing stories of cancer, starting with my own.
Some of these stories end in tragedy.
Some lead to new beginnings.
When my cancer journey started, I didn't know whether I was headed for death or a new start.
For now, I'm fully cured, but in some ways, I'll never quite get over cancer.
answer. I'm in the studio with Say More producer Anna Kussmer.
Hi Anna. Hi Shirley.
So I remember the first time you told me that you had had cancer.
We were having dinner together and you mentioned it sort of offhand and I was really intrigued.
I was like I've known Shirley for a while now.
I didn't know this about her and I had a million questions but I didn't know if it was okay to kind of just grill you about it.
And over time, I did hear more of your story.
How long has it been since your cancer diagnosis and what kind did you have?
So it's been eight years since my successful treatment.
I had early stage breast cancer.
Mine was caught by an annual mammogram.
I had a single side mastectomy.
My left breast is gone on now and have an implant.
And then I had five years of a drug called tamoxifen.
It's a type of hormone therapy that reduces the chances of my cancer coming back.
So you write a lot about your personal life in your columns, but you've never written about your cancer.
So why did you wait so long to talk publicly about this?
When I was first diagnosed, I thought about writing about it.
And between my diagnosis and my first surgery, I was thinking about doing it.
And I got this really good advice from somebody who said, don't write about it now.
You are going to be going through so much surgery, a diagnosis, you need to focus on your treatment.
And that was the best advice I got during that period.
period because I would later learn that, I mean, it took me probably two years until I stopped thinking about cancer every single day and stopped thinking about the idea that I might die of cancer.
Can you take me back to eight years ago when you first found out you had cancer?
What were those first couple days like?
Well, I was about 45 years old and I just had my annual mammogram and you know I got a call back saying I think we want to call you back and can you do another mammogram so I come back and then they said oh we want you to have a biopsy now it's like oh and so I go in for a biopsy and they took two biopsies in two different places in my left breast and then I had had to wait, and it was actually very excruciating waiting, and I think from my first mammogram to my biopsy result was probably almost three or four weeks, and I was kind of in limbo, and I remember, you know, I get a call from the doctor's
office. You were at work, right?
I was at work. I get to the doctor's office.
I'm thinking, well, I must not have cancer.
Who calls you up and tells you over the phone that you have cancer, right?
So it was almost a relief leaf that the doctor's office called.
But no, I learned that no, they actually do give you your cancer diagnosis over the phone.
And I couldn't believe it.
And so I'm sitting in the office at the Globe.
Literally, it was the week that we were moving from our old headquarters on Morrissey Boulevard in Dorchester into 53 State Street here downtown.
So it was a pretty empty newsroom.
You know, I'm unpacking my boxes.
I'm trying to file a column about the tea.
And it was like my world stopped.
It was just like all those movies where you're told you have cancer or some horrible thing.
And the room was just like spinning, you know.
And once the nurse on the other line said, you have cancer, I just stopped listening.
I couldn't even understand understand what she was saying, the other rest of the words.
Like, I was like, I have no idea what she said after that.
I just knew I had to get off the phone and call my husband right away.
So what kind of breast cancer did you have?
So I had something called DCIS.
It's the kind of breast cancer you want to have. As my doctor was explaining to me, it's both very treatable and beatable.
It's a kind of cancer that's supposed to stay in the breasts, which means it's not supposed to break out and spread throughout out your body.
But I had very aggressive tumors, and left untreated, it probably would have become invasive.
My prognosis was good, but having cancer, it's like a series of cliffhangers.
You get diagnosed, then you meet with a lot of different doctors, then you go through surgery.
There's more biopsies.
They're trying to figure out, did it spread?
You know, not only did they take my left breast, but they took the first lymph node to just make sure the cancer had not not spread.
And then after that, I didn't have to do chemo.
I didn't have to do radiation.
But I did have to take five years of a drug called tamoxifen.
And that prevents cancer from recurring, you know, because now they're concerned about my right breast to make sure it doesn't come back.
So you didn't come out publicly about your cancer for understandable reasons.
But who did you tell?
I mean, did you tell your little kids that you had cancer?
It wasn't hard telling my kids.
I mean, they were only four and six.
They had no idea what what cancer is, what could it do.
They weren't scared of it.
They weren't scared, exactly.
And, you know, of course I told friends and colleagues about my diagnosis, but the hardest conversation was with my mom.
And that surprised me.
You know, I actually think I waited a bit to tell her.
I mean, she lives in California and that's because, you know, her mom died of breast cancer.
And I'm a mom now. And if one of my kids told me, called me up and said, I have cancer, it would have crushed me.
And so I didn't want to break her heart, you know, telling her that her daughter has breast cancer just like her mom.
It was a hard conversation.
I mean, I remember she had called me and about something else.
I think we were like talking about summer vacation plans and then I had blurted out, I can't do any of that because I have cancer.
And we both just started crying.
And I have very vivid memories of that call.
And I was actually doing this series.
I was curious. I wonder what my mom remembered of that call.
We actually never talked about that call.
Your mom who lives in California, we connected with her via Zoom.
We wanted to see what she remembered.
Hello, Mom. Okay, there you You're in the office.
It's not your home.
Yeah, in my office, yeah.
She was really nervous, Anna.
She must really love me if she's willing to go on my podcast. She told us a little bit about her memory of the call.
Yeah, do you remember that day?
When I gave you a call?
Yeah, it was morning time.
My mom was completely shocked.
Yeah, I was shocked and crying.
Why? You have cancer?
you're so young your age is very young yeah sometimes it's my age my age has cancer it's not your age I asked my mom if she was scared about me having cancer yeah she said of course and sad very sad Why were you sad?
She said it was because, you know, her grandkids, my kids, they're so young.
And if they lost their mother, the family would be broken.
I asked my mom if she was really nervous for me.
because her own mother had died of breast cancer.
And I was really surprised by her answer.
She's saying that my grandmother had breast cancer so long ago you know, probably like 40 years ago.
And there were so many more advances in medicine, in treatment.
And so my mom knew that, you know, I think deep down she knew, I'm not going to be my grandmother.
More of my conversation about my cancer journey after this short break.
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Anna, you and I went to Dana -Farber.
I hadn't been to Dana -Farber before until I had my cancer.
Had you been to Dana?
I've definitely heard of Dana.
I mean, the Jimmy Fund, a philanthropic wing of Dana -Farber, loomed extremely large in my childhood.
I remember every time we'd go to the movies, there'd be buckets passed around to raise money for the Jimmy Fund.
So I've always been aware of this world -class cancer institution in Boston, but I've never been inside.
And it was really interesting to go there with you.
All right, so we're outside Dana -Farber.
This is the main building, right?
I called it the Four Seasons of Hospitals because it's just so welcoming, but also So it's very sobering being in there because, you know, some of the people there in the elevators are very sick.
I mean, often when we talk about cancer, we talk about it as the war on cancer, right?
And, I mean, you do feel like this is a place where you are on the front lines of fighting cancer.
And you have doctors and nurses and staff and researchers helping you battle cancer.
One place we went to together was this sort of indoor garden.
I've never seen that in a hospital before.
And I remember sometimes you can come in here.
It's a healing garden.
I mean, you don't see this in other hospitals.
I'll get to be quiet in here.
Did you go there when you were getting treatment?
I did. I did because it's such a special place.
You know, you can maybe you're waiting in between appointments, you know, or before your appointment, after an appointment.
You go into this garden and you have these benches and it's warm and it's sunlit and And you can just sit there and meditate.
You know, as much as cancer is a physical disease, it's also a mind game.
It seems like this garden seems like a physical representation of the fact that it's not just the physical, biological support you need in this journey.
You also need these other supports, like spiritual places to go to contemplate your life.
It's something my oncologist, Ann Partridge, seemed to really get.
Actually, right after the garden, we went to see her.
You're good. Thank you, my friend.
How about you? How are you?
I'm all right. Tell me a bit about Dr. Partridge.
Why did you choose her?
What did you like about her?
Her specialty is dealing with younger women who have breast cancer.
I think the average age of a woman who gets breast cancer in the US is in her early 60s.
And so her specialty is women in her 20s, 30s, and early 40s.
She said she was inspired to work with younger women with breast cancer because of a friend of hers who was diagnosed when she was 30.
She presented with a lump and sure enough, it was breast cancer.
What that did do at a tender young age for me was open my eyes to some of the things that the medical community doesn't focus on.
So you're focusing on the disease and what treatment do they need and what surgery do they need and should we give them chemo or not?
And she was also grappling with the, I just started dating this guy.
When do I tell him?
And what kind of camisole do I get if I choose to have a mastectomy?
And when can I do the reconstruction?
And things that, you know, kind of as a doctor, you're like, eh, talk to the nurses, go to the boutique.
But when you are either a patient or you're close enough to a patient, when they're sharing those things, like, oh, what's she going to do?
We don't know any of this stuff.
And more importantly, how is she going to feel?
In a couple of years as the dust settles with her decisions, decisions about fertility, decisions about reconstruction.
So there's like a whole Pandora's box that gets open for our youngest patients, especially that there wasn't as much research to tell us what to even think about her future risks, let alone how to counsel her.
So that's an area that we focused on a lot to try and bring more information to the table as people are making these difficult decisions.
decisions. One thing that I really liked about Dr. Partridge is that she, it seems like she took listening to her patients and really understanding her patients to be one of her biggest jobs besides the technical work of treating cancer, like understanding what their values were in life, what their fears were, and truly trying to get patients to open up to her about these really deep life or death questions.
That doesn't seem like every type of doctor would have to wrestle all of that.
I see it as what can I do to make this better for this person?
That's true for everybody that I take care of.
How can I make their journey better?
I find that an extraordinary both privilege and responsibility.
Because in order to help make a person's journey better, whether they have a low -risk early -stage breast cancer or they're living with advanced disease, you have to get to know that person.
And that's part of what pulled me into cancer and breast breast cancer specifically, because most people are, it's a long haul journey.
Even when they're ultimately going to die of the disease, we often can, you know, get them on a treatment that contains it for some time.
And so it, to me, was part of the compelling kind of draw to take care of patients who are dealing with something very serious, each bringing their own unique gifts and baggage to it, where you can help to get to know them and take care of them and hopefully make make their journey better.
Anne and other oncologists that we talked to for this series, so much of their focus was on quality of life.
You know, it wasn't about we were going to do everything possible to kill the cancer, even if it almost kills the patient.
I mean, I feel like before it was one size fits all for cancer treatment.
And now it's like, no, we can customize your treatment so you don't lose all your hair or you don't lose both breasts.
The advances are are about allowing people to live better and fuller lives.
It's not just about survival.
Dr. Partridge also talked a lot about the mental health journey of the cancer patient.
She said people who are mental health experts who go through this even struggle.
I had a patient at one of our patient -facing forums this past year who is a psychiatrist. And she said during the forum, she said, said, I'm a psychiatrist. I teach people how to cope.
And she said, and all of my usual coping mechanisms were not working.
And that's not an uncommon phenomenon.
So one thing that surprised me, Shirley, you mentioned earlier that you weren't exactly relieved when you found out that you were cancer free.
Can you explain that?
Yeah, I was surprised, too, because, you know, after my surgery, they test your lymph node.
And so the cancer is not spread.
So they know know that I'm definitely going to beat this cancer.
And the doctors are eager, actually, to declare you cancer -free.
And as a cancer patient, I mean, those are the magic words you want to hear.
I mean, you are waiting for that moment.
And yet, I didn't feel cancer -free because there's another C word, cured.
And that can land just as hard. And as I found out, it's just as complicated.
I remember talking to Dr. Partridge about, so why don't I feel better?
Why don't I feel like I have another?
You should feel relieved.
Yeah, I should feel relieved.
I should have another lease on life.
This is supposed to be amazing.
She was the one that suggested I see a therapist, and Dana Farber has therapists who who specialize with cancer patients.
And so I went to see a therapist for the first time.
So what did you learn?
Well, I learned that it was pretty common for patients to feel this way.
I also learned that I still equated cancer with death because of my grandmother's death.
And I needed to be reminded that I am not my grandmother.
It was hard for me to relax because for me, cancer I mean it was just it's just about my body and how it can make these malignant cells and it was like having a ticking time bomb inside me I mean how many of us know people who beat cancer only for it to return with a vengeance and I was like is that going to be me and I didn't want to jinx it you know I didn't want to think about that I'd actually had beat cancer so one of of the themes of this series is the ways that people who have cancer are treated differently once they do come out and tell people.
How did you feel about the ways that people talked to you and treated you and kind of talked about your cancer while you were going through it?
I mean, in the beginning, it was awkward. You know, I mean, still to this day, some people still ask me, how's your health?
And I'm thinking it's been eight years.
And, you know, it comes from a good place, right?
They want to recognize that you had cancer and it was a tough period for you.
So I appreciate it.
But you are treated differently, you know?
It's like I had my hip replaced, you know, a couple years ago.
It's like people don't talk to you the same way, you know?
You're a cancer person, like you're in this category.
Right, exactly. And it was awkward at the beginning.
And it can be a little awkward now because so much of the narrative around cancers, like, oh, you know, you're a survivor, you're a warrior.
And I didn't feel like either one of those.
I mean, I felt lucky, really lucky that I had a very treatable and beatable cancer.
Yes, I had this major surgery, but, you know, as cancer goes, it was pretty good.
But you can see that cancer has done something to my mind because it's taken me eight years to finally really talk about it.
So what, looking back now, what surprised you about your cancer journey?
I mean, for me, it was less of a physical battle and more of a mental one.
For years after my successful treatment, I couldn't get cancer out of my mind.
It took me probably two years until I stopped thinking about cancer every single day and and now you know now a little bit when I talk about cancer they're you know in the back my mind is like oh I don't want to jinx it you know because it can come back even though you know maybe it will be decades before it comes back but it could it could still come back so how do you think having cancer changed you as a person I mean I wish I could say it's made me Mother Teresa.
As the years go by, when I'm having a bad day, you know, or if I'm fighting with my kids or they're upsetting me, I do think, hey, I'm just really glad I'm still here and I can live through these moments.
I also saw, and I think every cancer patient will tell you this, You saw the humanity.
I had so many friends, colleagues, and also people I barely know who came out of the woodwork to support me, to bring me meals, to babysit my kids.
you know and i just saw a side of um humanity that that made me really hopeful and optimistic and and now when other people have cancer or go through something some really tough period i'm there for them so your little boys from earlier in your story that four and six year old they They aren't so little anymore.
I think they're, what, 12 and 14 now.
They're taller than me.
So what do you want them to know now about cancer, now that they're old enough to understand?
For them, their first association with cancer, it won't be about death.
You know, it'll be about mom living.
Now, one of my son's friends, their father passed away from cancer last year.
So they do know that some people die of cancer.
But I think it's important for them to know in that generation that cancer can be treatable, can be beatable.
And it's a real testament to the advances of medicine.
I mean, think about my grandmother.
I mean, she didn't really have a chance, but I absolutely should be able to live for decades.
And I remember going through my cancer treatments like I just want to see my sons graduate from college.
I want to dance at their weddings.
I mean, this is what I want to be able to do.
And that's the advances in medicine between my grandmother's death and the way I'm living now.
And a lot of those advances happened right here in Boston.
So I just feel really, really lucky.
And I can see my sons when they get older, I mean, cancer to them, it won't be the C word. It won't be taboo.
They can actually say cancer and not be scared.
Maybe in their lifetime, cancer will be more like heart disease or diabetes.
It's a disease that can be managed.
It's chronic for some people.
I mean, cancer won't haunt them like it did me.
Thank you, Shirley, so much for sharing your story.
I hope other people will reach out and share their own stories and stick around for the rest of these episodes.
Anna, thanks for being on this journey with me.
We hope you'll stick around for more episodes on The C -Word. Next week, we'll hear from Dr. Siddhartha Mukherjee, who trained in practice in Boston when he wrote the book The Emperor of All Maladies.
I think of cancer more and more as a journey.
In some cases, the journey is abruptly terminated, which is sad.
But in many, many cases, the journey continues.
And while the journey continues, we've given back people real lives.
Later in the series, we'll share a conversation with Boston oncologist Barrett Rollins, who took care of his wife through a dramatic and unusual cancer battle.
My insight into this is that people can ultimately handle anything.
There is nothing special about me.
And later, you'll hear from journalists Larry and Gracia, who had cancer genes running through his family tree.
We were puzzling over all the cancers in our family.
Doctors were puzzling over similar families, and they were also kind of swimming against the tide.
And we'll end with a special episode on the troubling trend of more young people getting cancers, why it's happening, and what can be done about it.
We hope you'll join us.
Say More is a production of the Boston Globe.
Today's episode was produced by Anna Kussmer.
Our editor is Jim Dow.
Our engineer is Uzair Ahmed.
If you like the show, please follow us and leave us a review on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can email us at saymoreatglobe .com.
I'm Shirley Leung. Thanks for listening.
Hey, it's Anne -Marie again.
Thank you so much for listening.
And remember, if you want to hear more episodes of this miniseries, follow Say More on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
