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Hey everybody, it's Meredith, and welcome to another Love Letters classic.
I have to admit, I had a different episode set to run today.
And then Coldplay happened.
What I mean is that two weeks ago there was a Coldplay concert in Massachusetts at Gillette Stadium, which is about 40 minutes from my house.
Within a day of that show, it was revealed that a local CEO had been caught in a concert box canoodling with the chief people officer of his company.
And they are not married.
Or I should say, they are married, but to other people.
Basically, Coldplay panned the camera to these two lovebirds and they were not ready for that kind of attention.
Ooh! because their moment of cuddling was supposed to be a secret.
It's so hard to listen to.
It's all so embarrassing.
I have long had a fear of jumbotrons, and the terror they can bring.
I'm dead serious about this.
Public proposals.
Kiss cams.
Unless people know that it's coming ahead of time, I hate it.
It's not that I'm worried about picking my nose on camera, or picking my wedgie...
It's more that I'm concerned that I'll be shown not being excited enough.
What if the Red Sox point a camera at me while I'm texting?
What if everyone sees that I look sad that day?
I know that's a weird fear, but it's this odd non-consensual public display.
They should make a section of every arena designed for introverts like me.
Now, this particular Coldplay, Jumbotron reveal, was probably one of the worst case scenarios for people who want to hide.
Or maybe it's a best case scenario if you look at it that way.
Maybe it will result in necessary change in the lives of the people involved.
On that note, I know that many people are talking about the cheating of it all.
And I guess that is the big thing.
But what this whole viral event brings up for me is the fact that I believe that work is a great place to find love.
If you're single, of course, and available.
But I also believe that power at work can be dangerous.
I fear that executives sometimes think they're above the rules of HR because everybody has to be nice to them, because they run the company.
What I've really been paying attention to as a relationship journalist is what this Coldplay incident says about romance in the workplace.
Cheating aside,
Let's say these Coldplay fans weren't married to other people.
I still think this would be complicated.
The CEO and essentially the head of HR together.
It's messy.
It made me think of the second episode of the second season of this podcast.
It was a story about a workplace affair that involved someone from HR.
It's a very sweet story about two people finding each other.
But looking back now, it is also really dicey.
I will tell you that the people in this episode would not have been embracing at a concert publicly until they were ready for Fallout.
And I think it's interesting to listen all over again and figure out what they were willing to put at risk to pursue love.
As you listen, think about where we were in the world in 2019.
Also consider what makes this story different than the Coldplay one.
Also, at the start of this episode you'll hear about Erin, a single woman we followed in Season 2 as she tried to date in Boston.
I am still in touch with Erin.
We had a very good lunch about a month ago.
At some point, I'll update you on her too.
But for now, let's get into the workplace.
Enjoy.
Hi there, Erin.
Hi, Meredith.
So we have a lot to talk about.
The first thing I want to ask is, like your homework, as we left it, I think, was to tell friends that you were doing this and to also see who might actually be open to setting you up.
I sent an email out the very next day to a wide variety of friends.
You know I gave them the information about how I'm going to be part of the podcast and that my homework was to reach out to them to fix me up on dates.
For not just the podcast but for a potential, you know, meeting a partner, because that was my ultimate goal.
I think I had sort of eased my or told myself maybe subconsciously, this will be better than it's.
Then you know, trying to just date through an app.
From the Boston Globe and PRX, this is Love Letters.
I'm Meredith Goldstein.
I'm trying to answer one big question this season.
How do you meet someone?
And as I try to answer this, I'm checking in with Erin.
She's a 44-year-old Boston professional but despite her cool tattoos, passions and love of live music, she just hasn't found a partner and she's kind of fed up with dating.
Erin has agreed to share her dating struggles with me and to let me follow her out in the world as she tries to meet someone.
One of the first things I wanted Erin to do was to tell everyone in her community that she was still looking to remind them that they can and should set her up with people.
Her friends and family have long known that she's been looking for a partner.
But still, this reminder email worked.
Two people and let me just say these are the same two people who've known for a while that she's been single told her oh, I do know someone for you.
And just like that, there were two potential dates on the horizon.
I was really excited.
It was interesting to think about, because I guess I had already assumed that people knew I was single, so they would if they knew someone, they would just automatically know to fix this up.
But then I realized, like that's not how humans work.
So so I said later in the episode we'll jump back to this call with Erin and learn about what happened with these dates.
But first I want to explore one of the easiest and also hardest places to meet people at work.
Now, some people don't believe in dating at work.
They'll never do it like ever.
The complications are too great.
God forbid it doesn't work out and things get bad.
You can't just get up and walk away.
What if you're stuck in the same Slack channel as the person you rejected?
Or who rejected you?
Oh, hey, person who saw me naked and then ruined my life.
Can you update me on the status of that report?
Sure, person whose heart I just shattered.
Also, FYI, there are cookies in the break room.
With any office relationship, there are a lot of risks, now more than ever.
After the Harvey Weinstein stories broke and Me Too became an international conversation, there was a necessary and important reckoning.
People started to ask a lot of questions of themselves.
What was okay at work?
What wasn't okay?
I mean, a lot of workplace behavior was obviously not okay.
But suddenly people had questions about how they could connect to people in the office.
Like, if you had feelings for a coworker, were you allowed to ask them out anymore?
Had it ever been okay?
Many employers, mine included, scheduled training sessions for employees on sexual harassment.
And you know what?
People in my office loved it.
It was so helpful, one colleague told me.
Another surprised me by saying it was hilarious and comforting.
The employment lawyer who did the training here in my office, Liz Spector-Lowden, was apparently so clear, yet funny and empathetic that a bunch of very judgmental editors and reporters were captivated by her.
So when I wanted to talk to somebody about how to date in the workplace, I immediately thought of Liz.
Because of Me Too, Liz's expertise was in high demand.
Phone was ringing off the hook.
I was traveling a lot and giving these talks.
And I guess every employer in the country was looking at itself differently and saying well, could this happen here?
And what should we do about it?
When you're in a work environment and you spend all day with people, you develop rapport with them.
You develop inside jokes with them and pet names for them.
You might travel with them.
You may go to events with them.
You may be logging long hours with them or be in the trenches with them.
And some of the bonds that we form at work can be the deepest bonds of our life.
And sometimes those lines can, either intentionally or unintentionally, morph into real familiar or romantic relationships and not just sort of pet names.
Let's say you do want to blur those lines with someone in the next cubicle.
How do you know when to take the risk?
Liz says there's a few key things to think about.
First off, super basic, make sure you know your employer's policy on romantic relationships.
Maybe they're not allowed at all, or maybe you're obligated to inform HR.
Then, Liz says, pay attention to what she calls welcomeness.
That is, what indication do you have that this person would welcome your advance?
Is this person flirting back with me?
Am I the one sending all the really long texts and this person is sending back one or two word answers?
You know, is this person finding me to have that drink at the holiday party or not?
And so really probing yourself and trying to be brutally honest and maybe even asking a coworker, you know, do you think this person might be into me too?
There's nothing wrong with colleagues dating colleagues, unless somebody feels like this is a come on that's not welcome to them.
And that might mean doing some sort of consent related things like we tell people to do on college campuses.
Is this okay?
Would you like to have a drink?
Would you like to have lunch?
If not, that's totally fine.
The other big thing to consider, Liz says, is your role within the company.
Whether or not you're this person's supervisor or indirect supervisor.
Are you in a position where you could materially influence this person's career?
Somebody who's a veteran, who's been around for a really long time.
If they ask a relatively junior person to go out, that junior person wants to get ahead and wants to be able to be respected in the organization.
He or she may not feel capable of saying no.
It's normal to meet people at work, Liz says.
I mean, especially considering how much we work these days.
But even if a work relationship is totally kosher, there's still an emotional risk.
And so what I say to people is which thing is more important to you, the pursuit of this relationship or your career at the company?
If your career at the company is so important to you that you just can't see yourself working anywhere else, that nowhere else would be okay for you, then it's probably too risky a proposition for you to engage in a romantic relationship at work.
But, at the end of the day, how many of us want to be faced with, day after day after day, someone who broke our heart?
So here's a question.
What if you have a crush on a coworker?
What do you do next?
You think, maybe I should ask HR.
But what if your crush is HR?
I want to bring you back to 2005.
Andrea is a preschool teacher, but she's looking to do something else.
One of the parents at her school gives her a job lead at an elder care company.
So Andrea does the whole application process, gets the job offer and then finds herself on the phone with this woman named Maggie, the head of HR, who's negotiating the terms of this gig.
Andrea does not like Maggie on the phone.
The negotiation is tense and, to top it off, when Maggie sends Andrea the formal offer letter, it's addressed to Angela.
And so I was like, ugh, this lady, she doesn't know what she's doing.
No attention to detail.
I thought she was a total jerk.
But Andrea shows up for her new job, and soon after, she meets Maggie in person.
It turns out that Maggie actually isn't so bad.
One day in a meeting Maggie came in and she said she was like making a joke or giving like our leader a hard time, kind of funny.
And I was like dying laughing.
And I was like, okay, this is the same lady that I was talking to on the phone.
She's cooler than I thought.
They don't interact much at first, but over time, their work brings them closer together.
Andrea eventually shifts to a different job at the company.
She's basically working directly for HR.
Andrea realizes she likes spending time with Maggie.
We laugh at the same things, that we sort of have a similar outlook.
They spend more time together at work and outside of it.
They travel to job fairs together.
One time there was one in the evening and we ended up having dinner at a TGI Friday's or something on the way there.
And...
It just it was one of those like usually like work meetings or work dinners are kind of awkward and you're just like why are we here?
Like we're here just because we have to be here.
But like with her, it was fun.
She like could get me to sort of talk and talk about me, versus like I can easily deflect and talk about other things.
At this point.
Andrea has had a girlfriend for more than four years, but the relationship is kind of on its way out.
Maggie is in a relationship, too.
In fact, she's been married to a guy for years.
When Andrea's honest with herself.
She knows she might have some crush feelings on Maggie, but it's not actually a thing.
She knows this is a work friendship.
So I was like, okay, like she's cool.
Like we can be friends.
Like that's fine.
Like I was kind of all set with having like unrequited like straight girl crushes.
Like I was all set.
That was like my life.
So to not have to worry about that was kind of like kind of a blessing.
But Andrea notices that Maggie wants to hang out a lot.
I remember dog sitting for a friend of mine, and Maggie's like, oh, they have a pool?
Hey, I'm going to come over.
I'll come over.
What are you doing this weekend?
Maggie had never seen Mean Girls, which is like, what?
But I was like, you've never seen that?
She's like, yeah, why don't you bring it over and we'll watch it together.
And I was like, okay.
And then there's this party.
Maggie has just completed a 60-mile charity walk over three days and she invites everybody who donated to come to her house.
I was on my way out.
I wasn't going to hang out and spend too much time, but I figured I'd just drop by and say like congrats, or whatever.
And as I was leaving, she was in the kitchen at her house and I was like all right well, I'll see you later.
And I gave her a hug, and it was like a hug like I'd never felt before.
And I was like, wait a minute.
What's going on here?
Like, sort of like really firework-y.
And I was like, this doesn't, this is not a normal, not a normal hug.
So the hug, yeah, that was spot on.
This is Maggie.
I'm not really a hugger, but I went for it.
And I do remember having that experience that Andrea did.
It was just like this feeling where...
You know there's so much going on around us and in the house like people are coming and going, and you know kids are running around.
And then it was sort of like you know, for that moment, like it was as if, like we were the only two people there.
And I remember thinking, whoa, I have never had a hug like this in my life.
We'll be back in a sec.
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So as it turns out, Maggie has developed a major crush on Andrea.
That hug at the party is like the first real physical expression of that.
What she has with Andrea seems really real to her, like real real.
But even though that hug is epic, they don't talk about it.
Because what do you say?
Andrea leaves it alone.
First, she's worried about breaking company rules.
Remember, Maggie is in charge of HR.
She's not Andrea's direct boss, but Andrea is clearly a subordinate.
Liz, the employment lawyer, would not love this.
And second, Andrea is not sure Maggie wants anything at all.
A, I'm a rule follower.
B, she's in HR.
C, like, she's a straight girl?
Like, friends of mine were like, no, don't, you know.
Like, I would tell them, oh, you know, I think there's something going on.
And they'd say, don't do that.
You know she's a straight girl.
Like, you'll be a rebound.
You'll be a whatever.
Like, there was all that sort of stuff that was coming out of it.
Some time goes by.
Andrea's relationship has ended, and she starts dating other people.
And Maggie, she and her husband are on their way out of their marriage, too.
Maggie is ready to make some big changes in her life.
She met her husband young, when they were both in the Army.
We got married when I was 19.
You know, I had grown up in this very small, Midwestern town in Illinois.
I had been one of those people that went to church every Sunday with my parents and really was raised like very traditionally Christian.
And kind of everyone in our neighborhood looked like my parents.
So I don't think I realized growing up that you know there were different ways people existed and families could look different.
At work, Maggie and Andrea keep talking, but not saying much about their feelings.
But then Maggie just hits a wall with it.
She wants more.
So she says so. in a text.
And then I just decided you know what, I'm going to put it all out there and I'm going to tell her.
I don't know why I thought that was a great idea, but I did.
But I was kind of a chicken, so of course I didn't tell her to her face.
I remember, you know, typing that out on my Razer phone and telling her how.
You know how I felt about her.
Maggie gets super credit for commitment here, because just to remind you, with 2007 Razer phones...
You had to press a button multiple times to get a letter like 111 for the letter C or 222 for F or whatever.
This was like a 2007 version of some John Keats-style love letter written with a quill.
You know, you just take that leap of faith and build your wings on the way down.
And that's kind of how I felt that I was just going to put it out there and see what happened.
I think she immediately shot me down.
Bam.
Wait, is that true?
I squashed the feelings because I was like, we can't do this.
Like, yes, I agree.
Different time, different place, we could do this.
But right now in our current state, we can't.
Like, you're the boss.
Your livelihood depends on it.
My livelihood depends on it.
We can't do that.
But Maggie, she's not about to accept defeat quite so easily.
After I built up all that nerve, it was like, oh no, we're pushing forward.
Wait, because I knew that about Andrea, that she was a role follower.
And I get it because there were like so many reasons why this should not have worked out.
Like there was really nothing in our favor that you would look at and think, oh yeah, this is going to work out.
This is worth throwing an entire career out the window for.
Yeah, no big deal.
If anybody had told me this story about themselves back then, I would have been like this is a terrible idea.
Like, I would have been rooting against us as well.
So you're saying if somebody had written into love letters with this problem... Yes.
You would have been like, no.
This is a disaster.
Yeah, total train wreck.
Yeah, it's like, absolutely.
But these feelings are undeniable.
So even with worries and hesitations, it begins.
But they both realize that if this is really going to go anywhere, one of them might just have to leave the company.
There might be no other way.
But in the meantime, they keep this on the DL.
Our office was super conservative, super traditional.
It just wasn't, it never would have flown.
One or both of us would have been out, like really quickly.
It was easy to be paranoid that coworkers might find out.
Like the day that Andrea saw the company vice president, their big boss.
I came into the office one morning and she said to me, hey, do you know where Maggie is?
And I knew exactly where Maggie was and I shouldn't have known.
So I was like, no, I don't know.
She said something about blah, blah, blah and gave some quick answer.
But it was weird that she asked me that, like she was trying to give me a test or something.
But she was really genuinely just looking for her.
The situation is more complicated for Maggie because for all her colleagues know she's a straight married woman.
But here's the thing.
Remember what Liz Spector Loudon said about being willing to choose between job and love?
Maggie had already made her choice.
This is going to sound terrible because I almost felt like this was more important.
Like, I felt like you can get a new job.
Like, you can.
I mean, hopefully you're not fired and getting it.
That's my HR advice for free.
But hopefully, you know, you can just get a new, you know, you could get a new job.
But I didn't want to pass on this relationship or this opportunity. for a relationship.
And definitely in our case, it's absolutely been worth it, for sure.
Maggie and Andrea do manage to keep things pretty secret at work until Maggie gets another job.
Andrea leaves the company not long after.
They get engaged in 2010 and marry in Provincetown in 2011, right in the middle of Hurricane Irene.
Yeah, we got married four years to the day of the text message confession.
And you have a special name for that anniversary.
Yeah, true confessionversary.
So I keep thinking...
What if this relationship hadn't worked?
What if that supernatural hug was the best part of it, but the relationship actually was terrible?
Would Maggie and Andrea have been miserable in the same office?
Maybe.
But by the time they made their move, they knew it was worth the risk.
Their out-of-office connection was far more important than the 9-to-5.
They took their time until the welcomeness was clear.
Once they understood their feelings, they came up with a plan together.
They knew they were both more willing to walk away from their jobs than each other.
I think that's the lesson here.
Taking time to make sure something's worth it and knowing what you're willing to leave behind.
Work love can be super complicated, but it also can be a really good way to meet someone.
And I don't mean to brag or anything, but Andrea and Maggie did tell me a very cute thing.
When they were still in the courtship phase, they bonded over reading my column.
Check the love letters article.
And then I'd say, oh, Maggie, did you see that advice?
What do you think?
Like we would we would like dissect the articles and the advice.
And it was always usually in your favor, to be fair.
Thank you.
Not just because we're here.
Back to Erin.
That first time we spoke, I told her to ask her friends for setups.
She went out and did that, and then two friends said they had guys in mind for her.
The first man she was connected to over email.
I called her to check in.
We talked about it.
He seemed open to it.
We set up a date for last night.
I texted him on Saturday just to solidify the logistics.
No response.
And then it's, okay. sorry to write so late, but I've met somebody that I'm interested in pursuing.
So our date was canceled.
So I was like, oh, okay.
I was excited because it was the beginning of this interesting process.
And then when he canceled, I was surprisingly, really disappointed.
You know which I was like?
Oh, I guess you know I'm.
I have stronger feelings that I forget about because it is like a form of rejection.
Okay, so 0 for 1.
Actually, 0 for 2 because the second guy just wasn't a fit.
So the date didn't happen.
Even though I've learned over the years that you know, I have to understand that people have a lot of things going on in their life and their reaction and actions towards me really have nothing to do with me, but still like affects me.
It becomes more and more easy and it feels a lot better just to continue to not date because...
Then all these, you know, the feelings, the bad feelings aren't there.
I don't allow myself to daydream until it's closer to becoming a reality, because I've been burned so many times.
When we spoke, Erin was preparing for a trip home to New Hampshire.
And all of a sudden I had this fantasy like what if she goes home and she goes to her hometown bar and And maybe there's this guy there who also grew up there and he shows up and they talk.
And then all of a sudden it becomes like a Reese Witherspoon movie from the early 2000s or a Christmas Hallmark movie where like, the city girl goes home and meets some local guy and then they fall in love and start a farm together.
I know this is absolutely absurd and ridiculous, but still I say to Aaron go home, be open to romance, maybe even go to a local bar just to see.
Like humor me.
And then call me and tell me about it.
I'm sorry the date was canceled, but I think we have excellent times ahead.
So thanks for catching up and checking in.
Yeah, thanks for checking in.
I look forward to talking to you again.
All right.
Bye.
Love Letters is a production of the Boston Globe and PRX.
Our podcast is produced, edited, and engineered by Amy Padula.
Audio mixing, sound design, and mastering by Ned Porter.
Music by APM.
Our executive producers are Scott Hellman and Janice Page.
Special thanks to Linda Henry and Brian McGorry.
If you're open to sharing your own dating story, we'd love to hear about it.
Email us at lovelettersatboston.com or tweet at us using the hashtag Love Letters Podcast.
On the next episode...
I'll explore the age-old question of whether it would be easier to meet someone if you lived somewhere else.
Like, is it you or is it your city?
Be sure to subscribe to Love Letters on Apple Podcasts Spotify, Radio Public or wherever you listen.
And if you like the show, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or online at loveletters.show.
I'm Meredith Goldstein.
Thanks for listening.
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