Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and this is Science Versus.
The show that pits facts against fast-track drugs.
Today, we are talking about Ibogaine.
And before we dive in, this episode discusses substance abuse and also mentions interpersonal abuse.
So please take care while you're listening and we're going to put some resources in our show notes.
Okay, so...
Ibogaine.
It's the latest psychedelic drug to hit the headlines.
The Trump administration is very excited about it because people are saying that it could be groundbreaking for mental health and that Ibogaine could cure things like opioid addiction or PTSD, which got senior producer Meryl Horne PhD very curious about this.
Hello, Meryl.
Hey, Wendy.
Yeah, I wanted to see what this was all about.
And so, yeah, I started looking into Ibogaine.
Wendy, have you tried Ibogaine?
I have not tried Ibogaine.
I mean, it's real...
It's funny when a new psychedelic hits the headlines, right?
We've had so many.
And Ibogaine kind of felt like it came out of nowhere.
That's what it felt like to me.
But then as soon as I started getting into it I realized oh, there's like a whole kind of underground community of people who are very into this drug.
And so I immediately kind of wanted to talk to people who have actually tried this to see what it actually feels like.
Great.
So meet Retz Chapman.
He's from Arkansas, and he's always been a daredevil.
I was always an adrenaline junkie my whole life.
I really did anything with a board, snowboard, skateboard, longboard, wakeboard.
Not chessboard, though.
You didn't mention.
Okay.
But yeah.
So one day about 15 years ago he was hillbombing in the Ozark Mountains, which is basically longboarding super fast down a steep hill.
And he crashes.
Oh, gosh.
Pretty sure, like a rock or a pebble got into my ball bearing and just crashed, messed everything up and I got all wobbly and yeah, I just ate the pavement.
So after that crash he gets taken to a hospital and eventually he needs surgery like a spinal fusion.
And the recovery from that was hard.
He gets prescribed painkillers, but then he gets hooked on opioids.
And then over the next several years, things kind of ratchet up.
He eventually starts using fentanyl.
Once I was on that, I really couldn't do anything.
I couldn't get out of bed without doing a little line.
And he said the withdrawal was super rough.
There is physical stuff, puking, cold sweats.
But it was the psychological part that got me the most.
Just I was never content.
Yeah, it was just always chasing something to get out of that negative feeling that I had.
It was about a year ago he told me he was in this really terrible place.
My life had completely become unmanageable.
My family, they didn't trust me.
My friends didn't want to hang out with me.
I was hanging on to my relationship with my girlfriend by a thread.
And it was at that point where I was like, all right, it's time to try something.
And that something was Ibogaine.
So Russ had heard about Ibogaine.
You know that it could do amazing things for people struggling with addiction.
I was intrigued.
I mean, from what I had researched, it was almost like it was too good to be true.
So he decided to give it a try.
He went to a clinic in Mexico outside Tijuana.
It overlooked the Pacific Ocean.
There was a big statue of Jesus with his arms held out wide overlooking the ocean.
So that was nice, reassuring.
Yeah.
Okay, so he gets taken to this room.
He lays down and he's given these capsules with like white powder inside.
And then he's given some eye shades and lays down.
Down the gullet.
Yeah.
So here's what happened.
It was all kind of coming on.
And the first thing I noticed was a loud buzzing noise, kind of like in my ears.
I would see visions that didn't really make sense.
Kind of just like dolphins walking on land and elephants with wings and just really off the wall things.
It was very comparable to an intense dream.
Then things start getting a little more intense.
It was almost like visions and downloads of my life going through my peripheral vision.
And I could almost like drive the experience.
Like I could kind of take control and I would see one vision.
And when I was done with that, I would be like, okay, now let's take me to the next one.
Like a movie reel of memories going through my vision.
And was it like a normal memory?
Oh, no.
It was memories that I deeply tucked under the rug my whole life.
And once I hit about the eight hour mark, that's when it really got intense.
And that's when I started vomiting and Got real nauseous and was honestly wanting it to end.
Mm-hmm.
So when does it end?
Okay, so Ibogaine trips can be long.
That intense phase could last up to 20 hours.
Whoa!
Mm-hmm.
And this is the drug that Trump seems to be pumped about.
Joe Rogan, who's sort of an Ibogaine superfan, talked about all this at a big event at the Oval Office.
He told this story about how he and Trump were texting and after Rogan told Trump how great Ibogaine is.
I sent him that information.
The text message came back, sounds great.
Do you want FDA approval?
Let's do it.
It was literally that quick.
No.
Was it really that quick?
So I mean it's not FDA approved yet, But a month ago Trump signed an executive order fast-tracking research into Ibogaine and other psychedelics because of the potential they show for treating serious mental illness.
So today on the show, what do we know about this drug?
Something like 16 million people worldwide struggle with opioid addiction, and even more people have PTSD at some point in their lives.
Could Ibogaine be the solution?
And we'll find out if it helps RETs coming up.
Welcome back.
Today we're looking into Ibogaine, and leading us through this trip of the science is senior producer Meryl Horne.
Hi, Wendy.
Hello.
So Ibogaine, can you tell me more about this drug?
So Ibogaine is a chemical that comes from the root of the iboga plants, which is native to Western Africa.
The plant is interesting.
It kind of has these like orange fruit.
Oh, yeah.
I'm looking at a picture of it.
It's beautiful.
And the roots are gorgeous as well.
So that's where the...
Ibogaine comes from.
Yeah, and it's been used by people there for a long time in indigenous medicine by people who practice the Bwiti religion.
And so, for example, it's taken during an initiation ritual.
That happens around the time someone becomes a teenager.
And do we know how it creates a trip, like what it's doing in your brain?
Yeah.
So the way all psychedelic drugs work is by latching on to proteins in your brain, and that changes the way that neurons will communicate with each other.
So maybe some parts of your brain will like relax a little and maybe other parts of your brain will kind of start talking to each other that don't normally talk so much.
So, like for psilocybin, the thing that's in magic mushrooms, we see tons of changes in activity all over the brain.
And so presumably Ibogaine works in a similar way since it also makes us like hallucinate.
Uh-huh.
But scientists are still working out the details for Ibogaine, like what brain regions or neurotransmitters are involved.
Uh-huh.
Okay.
So we don't know... what it's doing in our brain, but clearly it's doing a lot.
We know it's doing something.
We know it's doing something.
We just don't know exactly how.
Right.
And then so, but there are a lot of drugs out there that we don't know the complete mechanism of how they work.
Yeah.
So one of the big claims is around opioid addiction, like Retz's story.
Right.
Do we have any data here on whether it helps people?
We do.
Yeah.
So let's talk to Alan Davis.
He's an associate professor at The Ohio State University.
We've talked about psychedelics with Alan before.
Nice to talk to you again.
It's been like seven years.
Yeah.
Gosh, has it been that long?
Yeah, because I interviewed you first in 2019.
And somehow that feels like 10,000 years ago.
It does.
It really does.
Aw, Alan.
We first talked to Alan about psilocybin.
He's also done research on DMT.
So I wanted to check his temperature about Ibogaine.
If all psychedelics were superheroes, would Ibogaine be more like Captain America, or someone kind of darker like Wolverine?
Certainly on the darker side.
You know these are the experiences that Ibogaine brings about in people are typically referred to and discussed as very challenging and difficult experiences.
I almost you know.
In fact, when you started to bring up the metaphor of superhero actually, the first person that came to my mind was Loki.
Yeah.
Wait, I'm sorry.
I'm not a pickup nerd.
Who is that?
Well, Loki is actually more of like a villain in the superhero universe.
But the reason that comes to my mind is because it is a rather you know, it can be a rather dark experience for people.
And for Retz, he did have a hard trip.
He said that all these traumatic memories came up like this time in his life when he was getting abused.
Actually,
Oh, gosh.
And that's not uncommon to relive the darkest periods of your life while you're on Ibogaine.
But still, all the things that Alan heard did make him curious about this drug because he started meeting people at conferences.
So this was back in 2013 who had taken Ibogaine for addiction and they were telling him that it really helps them.
So Alan figured like okay, let's study this, because he was on the hunt for something that could really help people struggling with opioid addiction.
So what did he do?
So he like went out and found a clinic, an Ibogaine clinic in Mexico, that was willing to team up with him and do a study on Ibogaine together.
Oh, was it the same one that Retz went to?
Yeah.
No, it was in Tijuana, but it was a different clinic.
This one had been around for a while.
It was one of the first clinics to treat people for addiction with Ibogaine.
And the clinic kept all this contact information of the people who had gone there.
So it was kind of perfect, because then Alan and his team could get in touch with them and get them to fill out a survey about what happened.
Right.
So what happened?
Well, so they got 88 people to do the survey.
Here's what he found.
Well, people report that it has a pretty profound impact on their craving and their withdrawal symptoms.
And so 80 of the people in our study said that there was a large decrease in those components of their detoxification.
80% of them said that it was like way better or gone?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, that it was much better or eliminated completely.
Wow.
How many people did they reach out to?
So 88 folks responded to the survey, but I'm wondering...
If it was like just finding the people where it worked.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just because, with surveys like this, if you have an opioid addiction and you go to a clinic in Tijuana and you try this drug and it doesn't work for you.
And two years later, some researchers contact you and say, how was that?
Yeah.
I feel like if it didn't work for me, I'd go.
F you.
Yeah.
Right.
I don't want to spend more time on this.
It didn't work.
Exactly.
Okay.
So, in this study, they reached out to 285 people and only 88 of them got back.
So, yeah, valid concern.
But there have been other studies, too, that didn't seem to have this issue to me.
Uh-huh.
There is a study that got all the charts from a bunch of people who went to an Ibogaine clinic and looked at how well it worked for them.
There are also studies that follow people along as they try Ibogaine for opioid addiction.
So yeah, I found five of these studies altogether, including Allen's, and they all found similarly impressive results.
Most people said that Ibogaine really helps their withdrawal symptoms after taking it.
Uh-huh.
Wow.
So this seems like a real effect.
Okay.
Okay.
I asked Allen about what he thought at the time when he saw his results.
What was pretty profound, you know, at the time, to see that, you know, so many people had said that there was this huge impact on their functioning, really quite immediately.
You know, especially coming from where I came from, with my experience in substance use treatment and trying to help people in that space.
So had you ever seen anything that worked that well to just like bam?
No.
Wow.
No.
Mm.
And what happened to Retz?
Okay, yeah, let's go back to Retz's story.
So even though he said that you know his trip was like extremely hard to like revisit these traumatic things that happened to him, doing all that it did kind of change the way that he looked at that period of his life and the person who abused him.
Mm.
After this experience, after revisiting that memory, I kind of forgave myself and that person to where there was no more shame and guilt attached to that memory.
And so, yeah, after this was all over, he said he felt really good.
I came out of there just so happy and I felt like I wouldn't want to trade my life with anyone else's.
Wow.
But then what happened with his opioid addiction?
Yeah, I asked him.
And so what happened to your, the like cravings and the withdrawal symptoms and all that?
Yeah, I mean, it all dissipated.
Like, it was nonexistent.
It was just magical.
They were just gone?
Like, you just didn't want to do opiates anymore?
I didn't want to do anything.
Like, Advil repulsed me.
Like, anything that I put in my body, like...
I was just totally cool with just living life on life's terms.
And I did talk to one other person who tried Ibogaine to break an addiction, Holly.
So leading up to it, she had an abusive partner and she started using opioids, kind of casually at first.
And then one of her kids got diagnosed with muscular dystrophy.
He would end up dying from it.
And it was during his illness that Holly really found herself needing drugs to cope.
It's the worst kind of pain.
And it is a pain I couldn't escape.
And I really think that's what kind of kept me in my cycle, that where I had to kind of stay numb to function.
This went on for years.
And you know.
Ultimately she found a new and supportive partner, but she was still struggling with drugs.
So she gave Ibogaine a go.
And it was also a hard experience for her.
She kind of felt like she was confronting the darkest parts of herself.
But then going through that really changed something in her.
So what was it like coming out of this experience?
Yeah.
So if...
If the experience itself is like going down to the depths of your shadow self, coming out on the other side is like shooting to the top of your best self.
That's how I felt.
I came out of it like... okay, I'm here.
I'm not in danger.
I'm not that little girl anymore.
I'm not that battered wife.
I can feel the pain and process it and let it move through me.
And I can be okay.
I can come out on the other side okay and better off.
Wow.
And yeah, I also asked Holly so what happened to your withdrawal symptoms and cravings after the Ibogaine?
Gone.
No interest.
I had no... memory of what it felt like to be high.
I had a memory of doing it and struggling with it, of course.
I remembered everything, but I guess the analogy would be muscle memory for it.
It did not feel natural to want to go pick it up.
I had an aversion.
Your face almost looked like you were disgusted even thinking about it.
Disgusted.
That's how I felt.
Like, ew, that's not for me.
That's an incredible story, right?
I mean so we don't know what ibogaine is doing in the brain, but do we have any sense of why it might be having this effect on people?
Well, we actually do know more about how it might be helping people.
Like we know more about that than how it just makes us trip.
Oh, okay.
So basically, it could be encouraging neuroplasticity and scientists think that maybe, because the trip is so long, it could be opening up this like big window where the brain can remake itself.
And we have animal studies backing that up.
So researchers have found that injecting ibogaine into rats can lead to the release of growth factors, proteins that encourage neurons to make new connections.
And they found that that was happening in parts of the brain that are rewired during addiction, like the reward centers of the brain.
And we don't have a lot of research on humans yet, but I did find a study on this in veterans with traumatic brain injuries.
So scientists gave them Ibogaine and looked at what sorts of brain changes happens.
And they found that after the vets got Ibogaine, parts of their brains were thicker.
So like, just like the rat studies, they think it might be like enhancing neuroplasticity.
Wow.
And so there's something about addiction.
Where your brain is wiring in this way, that's really not good for you.
That's creating this need for the drug more and more.
Mm-hmm.
And by shaking it up, by encouraging new pathways to form, you're really loosening up those neural connections.
Yeah, yeah.
You know we've been talking a lot about addiction, but there is also promising research on PTSD and anxiety too.
So showing that it might help there for veterans.
Which you could also imagine if with ruminating thoughts and...
Around PTSD and Yeah and like revisiting traumatic memories.
You know, maybe it's opening up this like period for like rewiring around those memories.
Yes.
But you know a lot of what we have right now.
All these studies are looking at this.
Short-term benefits, like right after people take this big dose of Ibogaine.
Yeah, so what happens over time?
Does your brain go back to what it... was before or is this rewiring permanent?
Well, so that's the big question, right?
So there actually were a bunch of studies like Alan's, finding these like amazing short-term, like results.
Yeah.
And that's kind of why Alan actually was doing his study was he wanted to see how long that lasted.
And you know, the study that he was doing was actually like sometimes years after people had their trips.
So he asked them... okay, when you first took it, how did you feel?
And that's where we got that 80% figure from.
But then he was also asking, how do you feel now?
You know, one or two years later, are you still off opioids?
And so I asked him what he found.
How well did it work to like help people to stay off opioids?
Well, you know, the main finding was that about 30 of people were still completely abstinent from opioids up to two years later.
30% of the 88.
Yeah, 30% of the whole group said that they never had opioids again.
Was it a little bit of a letdown?
I don't think it was a letdown necessarily, but I think what it did for me is it really further solidified the point that this is not going to be a magic bullet for people.
So Alan wasn't actually that surprised at this figure since, you know, after people go to these clinics, they still have to go home to their normal environments.
And so, in light of that, he was like it's actually pretty impressive that it worked for 30 of people.
Yeah.
And Alan said that even with that, 70 of people who had gone back to using opioids, a bunch of them were using less than they had used before, the Ibogaine.
It's kind of amazing, right?
It's kind of amazing that that was possible.
And what about Ritz and Holly?
How are they doing now?
Yeah, so I asked them how things went for them longer term, and they both said that the cravings did eventually come back.
Like, I don't want to say that I felt the ibogaine wear off.
But physiologically, I almost did to the point to where my body knew.
And it required me to really take action and start talking to my therapist more and start putting in the work.
Because like they say, Ibogaine will open the door for you, but you still have to walk through it.
So now it's been about a year and Rutz has managed to say off opioids since he first went to that clinic.
And with Holly, I asked her how long the Ibogaine worked.
Months and then it started to and I relapsed.
And that was the first wake up call like, yeah, you knew this.
You knew it wasn't going to last.
It's not a magic bullet.
That really taught me that, okay, I need to be prepared to maintain my recovery.
What does that look like?
So actually, both Retz and Holly still, as part of their recovery, do Ibogaine regularly.
They both take smaller doses, what Holly calls tune-ups.
She does them maybe once a year.
It is working.
I'm sick of doing Ibogaine.
Yeah, you wish you didn't have to do the tune-ups.
I hate it.
Like, I don't hate Ibogaine.
I'm so grateful.
I am so grateful.
No, but what is it about needing to do it every once in a while, that is like, Because it makes me physically sick?
I throw up every time.
So now my husband has to put the powder in the capsules, because just even looking at it makes me Even thought about a pill, a capsule I would get nauseous.
Oh, wow.
I've had the worst sickness on Ibogaine.
So these tune-ups, this kind of micro-dosing Ibogaine, is there any science on whether that helps?
I haven't seen any research on that, no.
Mm-hmm.
But, you know, for Holly and Retz, they say it definitely helps.
And, you know, it almost gives them a similar sort of therapy as that original, the bigger dose.
It like gives them a shorter version of that same experience.
Uh-huh.
Interesting.
I mean these experiences that people are having.
I can understand where the excitement around this drug is coming from.
And also some promising research, right?
But now that I think about it Meryl, none of those studies you talked about had a placebo control right.
No, they didn't.
It was just they followed people who had tried Ibogaine.
So do we have any clinical trials comparing it to a placebo?
We actually do.
Oh.
Yeah.
So that's what I'll tell you about after the break.
Plus, is it safe?
What are the risks here?
Coming up.
Welcome back.
Today, we are looking at the latest psychedelic wonder drug, Ibogaine.
And Meryl, you promised to give us...
Some real hardcore research we can sink our teeth into.
Yeah.
So let me tell you a story actually, because there was supposed to be a clinical trial back in the 90s that the NIH was going to do on Ibogaine, specifically NIDA, the part of the NIH that does drug addiction research.
And, you know, it got started.
They had even given Ibogaine to some patients, but then the trial was stopped.
Why?
Well, Ibogaine can kill you.
Oh, gosh.
Some of the people died in the study?
Not in that trial, but they had heard about a death that happened in the Netherlands from Ibogaine and that seemed to spook the people running the trial, so they pulled the plug on it.
How do you die from Ibogaine?
Well, I mean, we know, Ibogaine of course goes to the brain and that's why you trip, but it also goes to the heart and that's where it can cause trouble.
So, in particular, there is a little channel in the heart that lets ions go through it, potassium specifically.
And when Ibogaine gets into the body, even at pretty low levels, it latches onto this channel like a magnet, which is really bad, because this channel is really important for making your heart pump blood properly.
So you get basically a heart attack?
Sort of.
It's technically an arrhythmia.
Paul Glew, a professor at the University of Otago in New Zealand, is the one who explained this to me.
What this can all lead to.
When things really go south, you're getting much less blood sent around the body and there's a risk that your heart will just stop.
Then, unless you've got somebody sitting right next to you with some epinephrine and a set of paddles, you are officially dead.
And Ibogaine can do this or does?
We know for sure, if you get high enough doses of Ibogaine, you have a very high chance of dying this way.
We don't know how likely it is that you'll die from taking Ibogaine.
Like yes, we have documented deaths from people taking Ibogaine because of this thing that happens with the heart.
Researchers have been kind of collecting case studies here and there to try to figure out how often it's happening.
So you can kind of add up all these documented deaths, there'd probably be somewhere between 30 and 40 deaths.
That's not per year.
That's when you search. the literature for case studies of anyone dying from Ibogaine over decades.
Yeah, since we've been researching this.
Yeah, yeah.
And this is in the West, or this includes...
Are people dying in West Africa as well?
It's both.
So there have been a couple documented deaths from people taking it in West Africa.
And this is generally a known possibility among people who practice buriti and take iboga during rituals, though it is rare.
And so Paul wanted to know, like, can we get around this?
Can we get the benefits of Ibogaine without this risk?
Like, is there a dose we can give that's safe?
Right.
He did a study.
He's the one who did this placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trial.
Okay, so what did he do?
So he teamed up with a pharma company that was interested in making this drug.
They actually used a slightly different version of the chemical.
So Ibogaine itself, you know, no drug company is interested in making that into a drug because it can't be patented, since a researcher did that, like years ago already, sort of like a pharma cock block.
So Paul's team just tweaked it slightly and made something else called nor-Ibogaine, which is what your body turns Ibogaine into as it breaks down the chemical.
But in general, nor Ibogaine should do exactly what Ibogaine does.
Okay, so they got their norabagain.
They recruited 27 people who were addicted to opioids and they were on methadone, which they weaned off before they started the trial and they brought them into a hospital.
So imagine a big room with a bunch of beds.
We had a lot of staff on board, so it was a very busy ward.
And then gave them either norebogaine or placebo.
And we waited to see how quickly they went into opiate withdrawal.
And it was really easy for them to do this because there are these telltale signs that someone's gone into withdrawal.
The pupils start to dilate.
They get the sniffles.
They get goose pimples all over their arms.
Their blood pressure goes up.
Their heart rate goes up.
And there are these great scales where you can show how bad the withdrawal is by just sort of totting up all these symptoms and getting a score on them.
Okay.
So what we've got here?
They got a bunch of people who were dependent on opioids, brought them into the hospital, gave half this.
I can't believe it's not Ibogaine.
The placebo, you mean?
No, the nor-Ibogaine or whatever.
You know, I can't believe it's not butter.
Oh, the nor-Ibogaine.
Yes, yes, nor-Ibogaine.
Right.
And the other half got a placebo.
And now Paul is waiting for pupils to dilate goose pimples, to show up signs of withdrawal.
Basically, except they also try a bunch of different doses because they're trying to look for okay, as they're also monitoring their hearts.
How high up can we go before we start to see bad things start to happen to the heart?
So now he can check.
Okay, at the highest dose they could give was safe.
What happened to the withdrawal symptoms?
Got it.
And so he tried these different doses and he could see this heart problem getting worse and worse the higher and higher the dose they gave.
Right.
And so they had to stop at a pretty low dose.
And he checked to see, did it help?
Did people's withdrawal symptoms get any better compared to the placebo?
There was no difference between placebo and norepinephrine.
Oh so, based on this study, even at fairly low doses, doses that we don't think, based on the limited information we have, would help with your opioid addiction, you still get evidence of heart problems.
Yeah.
The beginnings of what could become heart failure.
And Paul knew, based on what other drugs have been approved, that with those effects that they were seeing, there's no way a drug that was having those effects on the heart would ever fly.
As a non-starter, FDA simply wouldn't approve it.
Yeah.
It is kind of a bummer, huh?
It is what it is.
Well, FDA wouldn't have approved it several years ago.
We live in a different world today, Meryl.
Yeah, we'll see.
And I did find one other small trial, placebo-controlled trial, looking at Ibogaine.
And when I first saw that one, I was like oh, this is great, because they found that it was really working for people.
In that case, it was on people who were addicted to cocaine.
Mm-hmm.
And they had less cravings.
But then I chatted with Paul about the dose that they were giving.
It says that they received a dose of 1,800 milligrams.
So that's like 10 times more than what you were giving.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's 30 milligrams per kilogram.
So would you say that was actually pretty dangerous?
It's just, it's reckless.
It's just crazy.
It's a really high dose.
And I'm pleased that no one died in that experiment.
But let's say it's not one of science's high points.
By the way, I did reach out to those researchers to ask about the danger here and didn't hear back.
But the fact that people didn't die, I mean, we still don't know why it is that...
Some people can tolerate high doses, like Retz and Holly and other people who are going to these Tijuana clinics.
Everyone who's in Alan's study obviously survived to fill out the survey.
We don't know why those people are fine and yet... you've got people who die.
Yeah.
In about half of those deaths.
It looked like there was some other issue that had like a comorbidity that might explain like that predisposed people to like cardiac risks.
But in the other half, they didn't see that.
So we're still not sure why it's sometimes killing people.
Yeah.
And you know, I think scientists might find a way to get that benefit for addiction without the cardiac risks.
Like I talked to a different scientist who is doing clinical trials right now to find out if maybe we can like space out the dosing to find a sweet spot.
And Paul's also hopeful that something like that can work.
We're not there yet.
And on top of all that, there's another issue that came up while I was doing this research.
I found that in some of those observational studies that work with Ibogaine clinics, like the one Alan worked with they're actually giving people another psychedelic along with the Ibogaine.
Oh, two for one.
What are they giving them?
So, yeah, a couple days after their Ibogaine trips, they'll often get DMT.
Oh, is that what happened with Holly and Rett?
Well, Holly didn't go to one of these clinics and didn't have DMT.
But, yeah, Rett's got DMT also a couple days later.
And you know, it seems like maybe they do this because DMT might give you like a softer landing after that.
You know dark, intense Ibogaine trip.
Mm-hmm.
The old hair of the dog using DMT.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, I talked to Alan about this, and he said that DMT...
It's more likely to bring about an experience of euphoria and mystical experience and kind of almost like a positive transcendent experience.
It's almost like you can take someone now they've been broken down by Ibogaine and give them this other thing that will kind of lift them back up and kind of propel them forward.
And yeah, Rhett said that, you know, he felt really good after getting the DMT.
Yeah.
But it does make the science messier, you know, trying to figure out like what drug is actually helping.
We've tried to disentangle a little bit, but it's been incredibly difficult because usually these treatments that they give them are within a couple of days of each other.
And so it's almost impossible to know, you know, which one contributed to the overall effect.
So if you are struggling with addiction or PTSD or someone you love is based on all of this research, would you recommend they give Ibogaine a go.
That's what I wanted to know.
Like.
I asked Paul about this and he said that for people who still want to try this, you should at least go to like a clinic that's monitoring your heart when you're on Ibogaine, with someone who knows how to use that equipment like a cardiologist.
That's actually what Rett's did.
Holly wasn't at a clinic, though, like I said.
She did get her heart, like, checked first, but I asked her how she felt about this risk.
Had you heard that there had been some deaths from taking Ibogaine before taking it yourself?
Yes.
And so, yeah, why did you decide to do it anyway, knowing that that could be a risk?
I was dying.
I felt like a dead walking person.
I mean, a walking dead person.
I was not living, let's put it that way.
So brings up this point of like, sure, Ibogaine might kill you, but so can opioids.
Something like 55,000 people die from opioid overdoses every year in the U.S. alone.
So it feels like the calculation is going to be different depending on who you are.
Yeah.
And if you have any known heart risks.
Yeah.
But one thing that does feel sketchy to me is that some of these Ibogaine clinics aren't just marketing themselves to people who are suffering from a serious condition like substance abuse or PTSD.
I saw a comment online from one of them saying, quote, unquote.
And that clinic charges between $10,000 to $20,000 for that piece.
Whoa.
That's... And then they'll... What?
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's a drug, right?
People want to take... People take drugs all the time for peace and clarity.
Yeah.
So, Meryl, you're ducking the question.
You recommending it to a friend or not?
Well, so, all right.
Well, bottom line, I also asked Alan the same question.
Here's what he said.
I'm ducking it again.
Yeah, he can see that.
Here's another scientist.
Okay.
So what would you say to someone who is thinking about trying Ibogaine for addiction?
Well, you know, not surprisingly, you know, because of the research that I do people actually do email me with this question.
And, you know, I've heard of this research.
What should I do?
My son is struggling.
My daughter is suffering.
My parent is suffering.
Should I go to Mexico?
Is that the answer?
And I always tell people, this is not a choice I would make.
It's expensive.
It's risky.
I would much rather encourage someone that I cared about to fly to Colorado and get a psilocybin therapy session.
In a regulated market where we know where the psilocybin is coming from and we know who the providers are that are doing it.
They're licensed professionals.
We do have a lot more research on psilocybin and it is safer.
So Meryl, here is where we are at with the research on Ibogaine.
Okay.
Some people who are really struggling with opioid addiction and PTSD have had amazing experiences on Ibogaine and it's really helped them.
But it doesn't last forever.
And in the meantime, while Ibogaine is doing some cool stuff up in your brain, it is also potentially doing scary stuff to your heart.
And at the moment, we don't know what that risk is, even though it's probably not super high.
We don't know.
So if you are struggling and you really want to try a psychedelic at the moment, give magic mushrooms a go.
Yeah.
All right.
Thanks, Meryl.
Thanks, Wendy.
That's Science Versus.
And before we get to our citations, we have a sponsored segment where we answer listener questions from you all.
So here it is.
Today's Ask Wendy Anything, Ask Me Anything is brought to you by Amazon Health AI.
Before this podcast continues, I need you to fill out 37 forms about your listening history.
I'll wait.
Just kidding.
That would be ridiculous.
Yeah, it feels like we do this every time we need health care.
But the new Amazon Health AI is different.
It can connect your health history to offer you personalized care so you can get help.
Here to ask me some questions is Science First's senior producer, Rose Rimler.
So our first question today is from Lisa Capitaneo from Instagram.
And Lisa asks, what's the first advice you would give an aspiring science communicator?
Be factual.
Get it right.
Because it's really easy online.
You're making some videos, making some content.
You see what does well.
And sometimes it's getting a little goosey goosey with the truth.
Do not do it.
All you have is your reputation, and the whole point you're getting into this industry of sites communication is to bring good factual information out there.
So don't forget your North Star.
Nice.
I like it.
Okay, Alia Savanova on Instagram wants to know if you have any big regrets in life.
My biggest regret in life is that I only learned how to pee properly in my mid-20s.
Is that a thing?
That I should know?
How do you pee properly?
I didn't know you're not supposed to push it out.
What?
You know how you can make yourself pee faster?
If you're really impatient.
Because...
There was always this story of girls take so long to pee.
And I would say, absolutely not.
I'll beat you to all my male friends.
And I would beat them.
I would beat them.
Bear down.
I would bear down.
And then in my mid-20s, someone said, do you know peeing is a passive process?
You could really mess up your muscles down there if you push down.
Yeah, you're not supposed to do that, I don't think.
Definitely not supposed to do that.
But I really wish I didn't spend, you know, more than a decade pushing.
I'm fine, guys.
I'm fine.
I do my kegels now.
Just let the pee flow.
Just take a moment and relax.
You've got nothing to prove.
That's my biggest regret in life.
Could be worse.
It could be worse.
That was today's Ask Me Anything.
This was brought to you by Amazon Health AI.
Amazon Health AI.
Healthcare just got less painful.
Okay, now it is time for the citations.
How many do we have this week, Meryl?
This week we have 70 citations.
So go to our show notes and then click on the link to the transcript to see all that Ibogaine science.
And our show notes is also where we'll put resources for mental health and substance use.
Thank you.
This episode was produced by Meryl Horne with help from Rose Rimler Aketi Foster-Keys, Michelle Dang and me, Wendy Zuckerman.
We're edited by Blythe Terrell.
I'm the executive producer.
Fact-checking by Diane Kelly.
Mix and sound design by Bobby Lord.
Music written by Bobby Lord, Bumi Hidaka, So Wiley, Emma Munger and Peter Lennon.
Thanks to all of the researchers that we spoke to for this episode, including Rafael Santos.
And a special thanks to those who talked about their Ibogaine experiences.
We really appreciate you.
Thank you.
Science Versus is a Spotify Studios original.
Listen to us for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
And if you like the show, you can give us a five-star review. you.
You can write a lovely comment.
You can find us on Instagram.
We are science underscore BS.
I'm on TikTok at Wendy Zook.
Come and say hello.
And if you're listening on Spotify, you can follow us and tap the bell icon so you get notifications when new episodes come out.
I'm Wendy Zookerman.
Fact you next time.
