None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel.
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He integrates into my friend group incredibly.
Like my partners, we literally travel the world, but he still is in these two other monogamous relationships that they don't know I exist.
If I come to his place, he basically has to like steam clean it so there's no trace of me.
Like it's very, very, very unhealthy.
She has been dating with intention where she wants partners that are open communicators.
How I've been always is seeing multiple people, typically hiding a lot of things.
Where our problems come in is.
A big part of my life is these other relationships that I've closed off to others.
I always ask him, I'm like, what if something happens to you?
What's the move then?
We all just meet at your hospital bed?
When they come in, they present as a couple that is grappling with a misalignment around ethical non-monogamy and her wishing for more transparency and his living a life of intense compartmentalization.
But very quickly, it becomes clear that that's not true.
The only thing here happening.
This is as much a session about polyamory as it is a session where one person lets their partner know something needs to change.
I need a response from you.
I need us to make a decision.
And repeatedly, the partner says, does not do so.
He has fully agreed with me that he needs to make this change.
He had told me he was going to end things with them or have these conversations by the new year, which did not happen.
So I just said, you know, we need space.
There's so many crossroad moments where often one person finds themselves making ultimatums, be it about commitment, be it about having children, be it about revealing a secret, be it about being presented to the family, hoping that it would put the right amount of pressure on their partner.
But in fact, they don't necessarily respond this way.
And so they have to carry out their ultimatum.
And the decision is, well, if you don't follow this request or the expectations, then I must go.
But they don't want to go.
Recently, she put an ultimatum with the request that she wanted to become known to his other partners.
He did not meet the ultimatum.
They broke up.
This is not the first time that they go through this very same loop.
And when they are apart, they remember how good they have it together.
And so this is when they come wondering, what kind of a future do we have?
Can we find a way to be partners still?
Are we able to find a way to be on the same page and have that perfect type of relationship?
Where do we start?
Let's meet and give me a sense as to how we landed here today.
Okay, so I think the important thing to know is that we both identify as solo polyamorous.
And that's actually how we met was on a dating app where we both disclosed that, and that was an immediate alignment.
And I also practice relationship anarchy.
So I am very open minded to all sorts of different relationships.
And I want different relationships in my life that work for me in the situation I'm in now.
And that's important for me and my partner.
And the solo is you first.
Your primary partner is yourself.
Because it can mean different things for different people.
Right.
For me, the solo is that I would never get on a relationship escalator with anybody.
I have no desire for marriage or cohabitation or financial entanglement.
So I guess in that case, I am my own primary partner.
Okay.
And for you?
Yeah, I mean, that's very similar, I think.
I actually did not have an identity maybe until somebody brought that to me of like you operate this way.
I've always had multiple partners, but kept it fairly secret until I was in a relationship that was monogamous ish.
But then on the other side I was cheating and I didn't want to ever do that again.
So once I ended that relationship I was like okay, now I'm going to speak more openly and that's sort of what I've done eight, nine years, I think but then not really doing the follow-ups needed.
Where it's like Somebody asks where I'm at, I'd rather not say anything or potentially lie.
Where it's created these monogamous relationships.
Even though they know I see other people, I can't really speak openly about my partners with them, which I want to do.
How many Dems?
It's two others.
And they know of each other?
I mean they know that I see other people yes, but not full names, or they don't want to meet other people.
So it becomes a challenge, even though they know I'm with other people.
They just want to be with me but keep it out of their mind, which I agree is not healthy for them either.
But it's choices they make.
But I also protect that too, I think a little too much rather than speaking more openly.
And that's where I'm trying to build for myself, for my life, more open, more honest.
How highly would you rate yourself on the evasiveness scale?
Oh, very high.
I'm good at it.
Yes, you just gave us a wonderful demo, too.
Yeah.
It slips.
It's like a fish, you know.
They ask, but they don't really ask, but they don't really tell.
But I told them in the beginning, but they don't know eight years later.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's not much poly in that, by the way.
No, I know.
And I know that too.
Like I take responsibility.
In respect of polyamory, this is probably not a good example.
For sure.
And I think that's how we got here was you know, we were seeing each other very casually in the very beginning.
And then we had some profound experiences together where we realized, when we traveled together, when we were out in our community together, we had the most amazing time and the most amazing connection.
And so then I wanted to shift towards more partnership, because we were so very aligned and the connection was so deep.
And that's when I began to realize that his other partners were unaware of me outside of a concept, potentially and that he has full access to my whole life.
And I never got a single glimpse into any of his life which, over the years, I began to realize is because he spends his whole time managing these parallel realities that can never intersect.
So essentially there is no room for me and no ability to share anything with me, you know, like You become so close to somebody and you can't reach out to them and ask for help because they have to pretend in that moment you don't exist.
And that's been our breaking point.
They meet on this app field and they both present themselves as Solopoly.
And so there was a sense that their reality is based on the same set of assumptions.
But in fact, they realized that they have been part of two very different relationship cultures.
His is the culture of secrecy.
Hers is the culture of transparency.
Hers is the culture that she has adopted, voluntarily anchored herself into and made a conscious choice about, with lots of intentionality and awareness.
His, as he says in his first sentence, my identity was kind of assigned to me.
I don't really have a sense of identity, but people looked at how I dealt with things and then they told me oh, this is what you may be, without much investigation of what that represented.
And so it is at the same time confusing, but also it comes with quite a lot of pain.
This need for compartmentalization, this need for your left arm not to know there's a right one and to keep things apart and hidden from each other.
We're from, because the discussion is less here about is this correct polyamory, or it's definitely correct compartmentalization, for sure it's correct.
Hiding, it's correct.
Obfuscating, it's correct.
Evasiveness, it's correct half answers, and of course, you will talk in circles.
It's meant to do that.
And how many years are you at this?
Two years of us having these discussions.
And then we had a break last year and the agreement was that.
He would be in a situation where we would be open with everything by the end of 2025.
And when I realized that wasn't going to happen is when we went on the break.
And honestly, for me part of that comes from childhood.
For sure to try to make a really long story as short as I can.
I grew up in a church that is quite different.
So I hid that from everybody just because it gets judged.
Tell me, what church?
Church of Scientology.
Growing up, my mother and my sister are big parts of that.
My sister is gone.
When I was 14 young teenager like, she left to go full time in there and my mother had something happen within it that she wasn't around either mentally full, psychotic episode, and my father ended up not able to stay with me and my mother.
But I have to now not only try to live my life as a teenager, but also be with my mom, protect my mom in a way, but also act as a double agent to the church, to my father, all these things.
One made me grow up really fast, become hyper independent for sure.
And did you have to hide your mom's situation?
For sure.
And was there anyone to protect you?
No.
I think not having both of my my mom and my sister in my life at that time.
I don't know if that has, because I became promiscuous and was never really wanting full relationship.
Super avoidant of that, maybe avoiding that connection.
I do feel there's areas around that for sure.
He just said something so important, but he muttered through it and didn't even finish the sentence.
And yet I heard in this one line so many keys for what could become the sessions.
He talks about how there was nobody to protect him, that he lost his mother and he lost his sister.
And then instantly he also says but I became very promiscuous at that time and I never really wanted a full relationship because I became super avoidant.
But with sex.
So he finds a way to connect with the women, but with limited liability.
He gets his needs met.
He gets to feel close.
He gets to experience tenderness.
But at the same time he gets to experience a dissociation of the needs that he has for the intimacy and for the connection.
He can be on both sides of this polarity. connected and disconnected at the same time.
And it becomes a major part of his life, his promiscuity.
It looks like it is about sex, but it is actually using the language, the behavior of sex in order to satisfy deep emotional needs, while at the same time masking them.
We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.
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But I also know I can compartmentalize a crazy amount.
Do you surprise yourself sometimes?
Somewhat, you know, like it's almost like, I hate to say it, but like serial killer, like shut off, you know, where they can like do something crazy and then be very normal.
And it's not quite at that same level.
I'm not wanting any harm for anybody.
I want everybody to be happy, and that's another aspect of my life that I think I need to also realize.
I can't always be the nice guy or make other people happy, and I am a people pleaser, I guess, like I'm not the writer of my own life and i kind of fall in this logic of pleasing and wanting others to be happy.
You think you should pursue her or you should set her free in our relationship here?
Yeah, i think there's still questions of our alignment right.
For me, I want to live a different life that is aligned with the way she is and operates.
But then there's other things that I'm like.
Well, I think we look at life a little differently and, Like she said, I've been introduced to all her friends and it seems like wow, I haven't introduced her to my friends really, but it's very different.
Like I don't really see my friends often and I don't have the type of community that she creates.
I don't share a lot of my life.
Do you ever voluntarily just tell something?
Or do you wait for questions?
She already answered.
I just saw her head shake.
Yeah, it's usually questions, right?
And that's something where I'm not sharing much.
I keep everything super close.
I don't know.
What's it like to listen to him right now?
Yeah.
I mean, I know all of this.
I can tell he has a lot to say and also is having trouble answering the question that you ask.
Well, I asked if you are in your pleaser mode.
Would you define her happiness as I pursue you, or would you define her happiness as setting her free?
And he answered pretty much the way you would expect he would answer.
I have a little of this and a little of that.
Yeah, right down the middle.
And basically, I don't know.
And basically, maybe those are not decisions I make in my life.
They're made for me.
Yes, like even taking the breaks, I am always the one to make the decision.
And if I would just be happy to carry on like that, he would never choose to end things, even if it seemed really bad or uncomfortable for me.
So this puts you in a place where you have to take autonomy all the way.
Yeah.
Like I have clear boundaries, and my boundary around being a transparent part of the life of the people that I love is a boundary for me at this point.
And like on our last break, I said something very simple.
Once you feel like your life is in a state where you could have a photograph of me in your condo that you don't have to take down every time somebody comes over, then that's when we can get back together and talk about how we move forward.
Because to me, that would mean that I'm a transparent part of his life that can be seen.
Of course.
I continuously sense that she doesn't give herself the permission to experience the sadness and the vulnerability that is inherent in what she really would like with him.
When I hear her talk about wanting peace, just her picture on the wall I'd actually become sad, because it's like is that all you want?
It's very small, this little picture.
And at the same time, I feel the deprivation.
I feel the sense that, Regardless of the anarchy, there is a desire to be integrated, to be seen, to be known by others, not to be hidden, not to be somebody's secret.
And that all of this is very painful and also angry making.
So it comes out in the discourse of polyamory rather than in the plight of her heart.
Given that you practice relational anarchy, is it hard to end?
Do you feel like you should be able to bend to anything?
You should be pliable, flexible, understanding, empathic, his therapist, his lover?
I broke my brain trying to figure out how to accept the fact that my partner had these monogamous relationships that were complete erasure of me and that that should be okay from a relationship anarchy perspective, right.
Like consenting adults, choosing to interact in a way that makes sense for them and that's right for them.
I tried.
How much of a pretzel did you become?
A very, very tight pretzel.
And I realized that it's not a healthy relationship format that I can be in.
And I don't believe it's healthy for anybody.
I think he recognizes the work he has to do on being more open and honest and living proper poly.
And When your other relationships require you to hide everything, you can't even learn or exercise that or even try to be different.
But then I felt horrible being like you have to end these other relationships to be with me, because that also felt outside of relationship anarchy, right.
Or like an ultimatum.
But then I...
I just realized at this point it's holding my boundary.
Like both can't exist in a healthy way.
You wanted him to end them, or you asked him to let them know that he's not just sleeping with other women, that he actually
It's two years with you.
How many years with the others?
Four years with us together, but I would say two years that we've been.
Okay.
So you have four years and the other two, the primary other?
One is eight years and one is three.
Okay.
So you're loyal.
You don't commit, but you stick around.
I mean, the thing is, there's nothing bad in these relationships.
Really, there's not.
The only challenge, really, is this, is living that super honest life, which I also want for myself.
I'm tired of hiding.
I'm good at it, but I also can't wait to be free of that and actually live with intention.
So when you made the agreement with her that you would come out and be transparent, what happened?
When you thought about not ending but just letting them know?
I live in a triad primarily.
Yeah, it's a very tough thing for me to be super vulnerable in that way.
I think I always think of this very negative reaction that they will be affected by what I say.
And if I tell my long girlfriend of eight years that I actually have other women that I'm in a relationship with, she will feel that I lied to her.
Everything looked fine, but it wasn't.
Yeah.
She told me I could be sexual with other people, but she told me, keep your feelings for me.
And all that time, I didn't.
Yeah.
Is it that?
So I would be hurting her?
Yeah.
But even now, like, I've finally gotten... some good therapy to look at my own boundaries.
And I am having those breakup conversations now because I know that it's unfair to them and I know that it's not a workable thing for me.
And I'm going through those stages right now.
You're going through these conversations with the person or in your head?
No, with the person, for sure.
Okay.
And what's it been like to taste a very different way of being in the world?
It feels good to be more honest, for sure.
But it also still has that visceral reaction that I'm destroying somebody, you know?
Which is not what I want to do.
And same for her.
It's okay.
That's the vulnerability.
Sometimes it hurts.
It hurts to lie and it hurts to say the truth.
Yeah, both.
In my attempts to make everything okay or to follow maybe others leads or not, be super straight and honest and actually i know, do any disservice to them as well.
I'm not sitting here thinking i'm innocent in any way.
I have a lot of empathy for how painful it is for her that he makes these promises that he can't keep, but I also understand why he can't keep them.
He was left alone with his psychotic mother.
He was the go-between, the mother and the church, the mother and the father.
Every adult around him was dangerous, and to be under such surveillance made him understand that the mechanism for survival was for nobody to know anything that would endanger him.
I don't know the details of what he means when he describes himself as the double agent, for example, but I do understand that this is not just a basic skills training about how to become more honest and more forthcoming.
This is A complete transformation of his entire psyche, being and survival system.
We have to take a brief break.
Stay with us.
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I'm Midge Furse, two-time Indie Resale Champion, Championship MVP and Forward for the US Women's National Team.
Before I went pro, I graduated from Harvard with a degree in psychology, which comes in handy more than you think.
Any athlete pursuing greatness knows there's a certain mentality you have to have.
What people don't know is what that costs.
In my podcast Confessions of an Elite Athlete, I sit down with the best athletes in the world and explore the psychology, mindset and unseen battles on the path to greatness.
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You learn to survive and you still practice those same coping skills in an environment today that is completely different and actually requires something else from you and offers you something else.
You have a super understanding person here who is not insensitive to anything you just told, but who knows the difference between you living with secrets and her being a secret, and when you are a secret, it eats you from within.
When you are a secret and you don't want it and there's no reason for you to, because you made a whole set of life choices in order for exactly that to avoid having to be in that situation.
Yeah, I've been clear that the hardest thing for me is feeling like a secret.
It makes you feel like almost a mistress, even though you're not, and I'm not doing anything wrong.
And I didn't ever say, please break up with these people, but I did say, please. be open and honest.
And I said here's a lot of resources, like here's all the intro to poly resources, like maybe share these.
But I also understand if people aren't coming from that mentality that you know you kind of have to want to do that.
So, but that would have been my approach.
And it just got to the point where I don't see a path forward other than us almost starting over from a place of no secrecy.
And I know it's probably hard to imagine what our connection is like based on what we're saying here.
But honestly, when we're out in the world and when we're traveling and when we're with our community, I've almost never experienced anything like it.
Like we're so similar and it's so incredible and we have the most fun and there's so much love.
So I think it makes it more like the pain of that not existing in between those moments and is just something I can't make work anymore.
For me, your whole life is spent managing these secret relationships and not necessarily even making time for one-on-one time for us.
What makes you amenable to live in this situation, which is rationally, completely outside of the values and the principles that you have chosen?
Again.
Yeah.
You're going to tell me the specialness of our connection and then that's your circling around.
I think it's, it's beautiful.
I'm not, for a moment, minimizing, but it doesn't give you an out either.
It's like, but it's so special, but it's so unique.
But what we have is so incredible.
And then I can't take it anymore.
Yeah.
And then I take a break and then I loosen my muscles and then I get back into the ring and then it's so beautiful.
And then how could I ever give up on something like this?
And then is, how could I ever continue to tolerate something like this?
So now you start to be in a betrayal of yourself, not just his betrayal of you.
So yeah, I learned a lot about where he came from and what he's been through, and I have incredibly deep empathy for that and it helps me contextualize what he does and it helps me understand it.
And sometimes knowledge comes to a detriment to yourself.
I guess because I know how much good there is in him and I understand why it's so difficult.
And so I make a lot of space for that.
And I think that's just what love is.
And then you reach the point where your love for him becomes degrading of you.
Change the word.
The word didn't sit well with you.
No.
It just never sees me.
No matter how much empathy and space I give, I just realize maybe I'll never be seen in that way.
I mean, I do see you.
I just am not necessarily super forthcoming.
I'm not very vocal on emotions.
When we're apart, it's not that I don't see you anymore and it shuts off for me.
I will think of you often.
I don't operate the way a lot of people do, where they like think of somebody or see something and then immediately messaging that person.
I know that's a normal thing, but it's not that I don't love you or see you.
It's I don't know how to change.
I've become more aware of what I'm doing.
And then every time you rope her into this empathic attunement of your situation, if you can stay with her for a moment,
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm mainly trying to say I understand where.
So that's a short sentence.
You can say it in a in one sentence too.
Yeah, you know, i know it's coming back to me, but i'm also trying to give us a chance to move forward in the right way, and i've never had more tough conversations.
I know you're not there so you don't see it, but It's tough because on the other side there's other people that don't want things to end or change.
I know, but you have a choice of your life, right?
I know.
If you need to change a situation with a partner, you have full autonomy.
Make that choice.
It's for yourself and, as i said, like eight years a long time of somebody being in my life and i've had two full-on breakup conversations that are so hard, that are so out of my norm i know there's no easy way and i have to do it the hard way.
Do you wish that she would understand that more for sure, How hard it is to have these conversations, how much you are hurting people you care about deeply?
You get a lot of understanding for your past, but you also live in the present.
And you can ask for some understanding about the challenges of your present, even if it's late, even if it's after years whatever, because you've so presented it as they're monogamous and I am just the one floating through that to acknowledge that these breakups, which have been the most steady relationships in your life, are tearing you apart.
Yeah, but I also take responsibility of my action to it.
You know, correct and i feel terrible, like correct, correct and you can judge yourself a little bit and you can also acknowledge your feelings about it.
Not one wipes out the other.
I realized this is an area I have not been able to be kind or empathetic around, how hard this would be.
And I think in an unfair way, I just say that I would never be in this situation.
So I can't understand it.
But I hear that if I'm so understanding about the past, i also need to be understanding about the present, and i haven't been probably more, because the present does seem to directly affect me, right.
So it's a really hard balance to strike, i think, and i am sorry for that.
I wish i could take back time to Be super honest.
I mean even in the breakup of eight years, I mean from when we first were talking.
I hadn't met other people really that were living that way and living truth.
I had no examples of that.
So a lot has changed and understanding how to do it, at least open honesty, not hurting anybody and i know i'm hurting people, i know that that's happening and i'm at a breaking point too that i don't want to do that anymore for my life.
But the other side is also It's a big loss as well.
And it's a loss for me.
Like these are friends that won't be friends.
So I lose real people.
That's not just so simple as, yeah, you're not happy.
Like, well, I am actually kind of happy.
There's nothing wrong.
They treat me well.
I treat them well.
It's just that it is not aligned with how I feel should live and i shouldn't be secretive.
And what you're saying now have you said to her before.
Yeah, the part about your loss yeah yeah we've, we have talked about that and i i think it's really just hard for me to understand what those relationships could be like and what those relationships add to his life.
To be honest,
All I see is him move through the world in a very open authentic, beautiful way with me and my friends.
And all I can picture is a completely different person when he's with these other people that everything else is hidden from.
And You know they don't go on adventures and they don't travel and they don't like.
It's just hard for me to understand and conceptualize.
Do you ask?
Yeah, I've asked what he gets from these relationships.
That's not a question because you already have decided that it's inferior to what he has with you.
It's not a real question.
That's fair.
I don't ask in a curious way.
Yeah.
So here's the collusion.
You don't really ask because a part of you wants to think that what you have is so special.
How could he say no to that?
And he doesn't really tell you because until now he has pretended that none of this was that important.
Yes.
So here's a moment of change.
You know, it's not just it's hard for them, it's hard for you too.
To say goodbye or to explain why this has to change, or to explain that these beautiful relationships have existed, also shrouded in secrecy.
And while you offer travel, maybe they offer a cocoon.
You offer adventure, they offer something else.
I don't know, but I have a sense that there is a lot more that you could tell about it.
But you've had an investment in making them look like they were nothing, so that she wouldn't have to worry about it.
So there's a collusion of misrepresentation of what means what and what matters and doesn't.
Yeah, and there's comfortability, habits.
It does bring cocoon, I guess, or comfort to life.
It's like a stable thing for me, which I didn't have, obviously, growing up.
I know that's a part of a need and want that I have, like, taken care of.
And, you know, even if it's making food, things like that, like, there are comforts of life.
I assume that in your therapy, you are connecting those dots?
Yeah, but in all honesty I'm working through trying to change my situations more so than I am there.
That's all I do, went in with and that's all i talk about almost.
But you have put a lot of emphasis on honesty and transparency and secrecy, and what i'm sensing throughout our conversation today is that there is a whole other emphasis on loss, on the burden of caretaking, on feeling incredible responsibility, on wondering who is there for you, on aloneness and on creating relationships that become safe harbors, where somebody cooks for you so that it becomes more layered, why they feel like a root canal to have to end and why, on some level, they have nothing to do with your relationship.
Right now it does and it doesn't.
I think what's hard for me is that I want to be a safe harbor for you.
And I think I offer you that comfort and doing things for you and not just the community but like one-on-one.
Like I do truly believe that we want the same thing.
And I recognize the barrier and how hard this is for you.
But that like puts me back in, like I don't know what to do with that, because it's a pretty tough boundary for me again.
So, even if I can understand how hard it is for you to change your dynamics with these other individuals,
Like, can I change my boundary?
And like, I've tried.
And now I'm back in a pretzel in my head of like, why can't I just let this all work for me?
Like, I feel like I'm right back there.
I saw the loop.
I see the circle.
I see the making of the pretzels, if you want.
And yes, there is also a place at which you say, love him.
Love some of what we have.
Special, unique, love story.
But maybe reached its limit in terms of life story.
To me, that is a boundary.
The people that we can deeply love.
And then the question is, can we make a life with them?
Whatever the style of life you choose, more pressure you can't put.
That's one thing you know for a fact, because He's not doing this for you, but he has been watching you and he wants something else for himself.
And that demands disentangling from very deep, meaningful relationships that are way more meaningful than he has actually allowed himself to even know.
So it's in the moment of saying goodbye that he realizes what they have meant for him.
Not just the hurting of the other person, but also the loss for himself.
You can say I will be there with you and I will accompany you through this process, or I will let you go through this process by yourself and I
We continue with my life and the door is open.
I do want to be there for him and I do want to be there for you.
But if I'm also the one that's being affected, can I do both?
Where do we begin again?
Do we begin again?
I do feel like we're back in our circle.
We're stuck.
I know all these things.
I know where it comes from.
I want the relationship.
But while he's going through this and figuring out if he can actually live in a polyamorous lifestyle, where do i put myself in his life?
Can i be there?
Can we plan things together?
Can we do things together, or does this require a full separation?
And then, when do you come back together?
It's very much what happens when we talk.
We kind of circle.
It's a difficult situation because we both love each other and want to spend time together and be the partners we can be when we're together, but there's other things that are not aligned right now.
So it's the draw of us being us again.
I don't think that it's going to be a joint decision.
No.
I think that this is a situation where you make a decision for yourself and you may be in agreement about it, but it's not.
We have come to the conclusion together that it is in your best interest to have this transparency be immediate.
And it is not his.
You operate from a place of a chosen set of values yeah, and a certain design for your life and a certain conception of relationships.
If i listen to you, I know you mentioned those words to those women early on, but I don't think that your lifestyle has much to do with poly nothing.
You're using poly because it's an acceptable word for multiple partners, multiple love stories.
But in fact, your whole thing is way more internal.
Then lifestyle.
It may change.
Yeah.
But that is not from everything you describe what I see you having done.
Yeah.
Oh, I recognize for sure.
I said that.
So that's where the misalignment.
You're using a vocabulary that is not a joint vocabulary.
Yeah, well, I said I haven't practiced Pali.
I said it, but I haven't been active.
But you've practiced something else, and that something else is way more intricate.
There's a whole psychological infrastructure about what you have done, to just think it wasn't poly because it wasn't transparent, because of all.
It's true, it's all there too, but what you have put in place and what you're trying to dismantle is an infrastructure that has very little to do with polyamory.
It doesn't necessarily even have to do with secrecy.
That's the mechanism, the compartmentalizing, the evasiveness and the way the entire thing is set up.
If you ask, I answer, but since you didn't ask, I didn't really need to tell.
And evasive is a very powerful dynamic.
And at the same time, the relationships are deeply meaningful.
But you're looking at an infrastructure of values and lifestyle and accountability and responsibility and transparency and all these things.
And that is on its way, but it has not been there.
There will be loss for both of you.
There will be attempts to come back because who wants to leave something good?
And it won't be perfect.
And it won't feel certain.
And it will ache.
And you will wonder why the hell did it have to be this way?
And should you have been more patient and more flexible and more anarchic?
And then you have to accept that you had limits.
Which goes against your grain because you think you should be able to be beyond all limits.
And accommodating in every arrangement.
And this is kind of the place where you meet is that his relationships are more meaningful to him than he has allowed himself ever to feel.
And that your limits are more real than you have allowed yourself to feel.
It's a place where both of you say, whatever flows isn't necessarily always the right thing for me.
But you will find a way out of the loop when you accept that you too have no's, that you have limits, that you have things that you don't want to live with.
You know, monogamous people, exclusive people sometimes are challenged to admit that they have thoughts fantasies, explorations beyond the limits that they live in.
But Pali people sometimes have the challenge of admitting that full-on openness exploration, everything goes, everything needs to be understood, every feeling needs to be managed is sometimes Also not what suits every person.
Does any of this reach you?
It does.
I mean, you just described what kind of we go through when we break up.
It just hasn't stuck.
Mm-hmm.
When you make the decision, you won't feel sure.
You will question yourself.
It's important that you not think these decisions are made with certainty.
I know that.
I mean, that's what I've already been in.
Right, okay.
And he will try to help you stay.
No, no, you won't say it.
You won't say stay, but you will say what you said today, which melts her heart.
So grief lives in that space.
The more you grieve, the more you know you loved.
I've already grieved this a lot.
I know.
But you also put him in ultimatum.
He didn't meet the ultimatum.
Then you had to follow through on your decision.
Then you thought, is there another stone unturned?
And sometimes...
I have nothing to say that you don't know already.
I think today is one of those.
Is that disappointing to you?
A little bit.
Yeah, I obviously wish there was something I hadn't thought of.
I wish too.
Where do I leave you besides frustrated or disappointed?
I think it is just what it is.
It is frustrating and it is disappointing.
And those are two good words to describe our relationship arc.
Where do I leave you?
Talk to me.
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, I have to make my own decisions, too.
And it's quite different.
I'm the one making the decisions on those other sides.
And in this position I'm not here.
Um, i can respect that, recognize that, and it could be a complete restart for me too to go forward in a much better way.
But is there an avenue that we can be in each other's lives that looks differently, where our care and love for each other just doesn't Go by the wayside and we still care for each other?
We still love each other.
What can something else look like?
You know what something else looks like?
Is that you are now friends.
And therefore, when she calls you in an emergency, you do not have to worry about answering the phone.
And then you will pick up and then you will show up.
You are more likely to be able to show your depth of affection and love and care for her, potentially in the framework of friends, than in the framework of partners.
See, but that's the crazy thing is, we've had that conversation and the level of compartmentalization doesn't allow that, even as a friend.
Really?
Oh, okay.
Then I take it back.
The compartmentalization doesn't allow for a deep friendship.
Then you have your answer.
And that's the problem.
Then you have your answer.
At the end of the session, it becomes clear that she will have to make the decision for where the story goes.
This will not be a joint decision.
This will be hers because he can go on like this.
He has begun a process of dismantling and rebuilding, but they're not at all in the same place.
And paradoxically, while he carries the secrecy, we know a lot more about him.
While she carries the transparency, we actually don't know as much.
We know the predicament that she's in at this moment and the aching that she feels, but we don't necessarily know what predisposes her to find herself in the most paradoxical situation, meaning she's experiencing the one thing she built an entire system to prevent.
And my frustration at the end of this session is that there was only one session.
Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise.
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.
Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julianne.
Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.
And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.
We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
