Hi, it's Josh here from The Imperfects.
Before we start today's episode, this is just a reminder that tickets are available to our live tour at the back half of this year in October and November, and a little bit of December I think too.
So we'll be in Hobart, Geelong, Adelaide, Melbourne, Newcastle, Sydney, Canberra, Perth, Brisbane, and the Gold Coast. Go to livenation .com .au for tickets.
My name is Bella and I'm the assistant producer on The Imperfects.
I'm the descendant of Russian and English migrants who journeyed to Australia during the Second World War.
I grew up on the border of Whatawrung and Eastidmar country inspired by their care for the natural world as I explored the land near my home.
Here at The Imperfects, we acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land where our podcast is recorded.
We extend our respects to their elders past and present and acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded.
Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.
Never noticed the drums as much as I did in that song then?
Oh yeah. So really, it was a heavy, big deep bass.
Big deep bass. Yeah, you know how I love my bass?
Oh yeah, yeah. The big bass guy.
How are you Hugh? Good, good.
Now this is a very different type of episode.
Yeah, I feel like I almost, my instinct is like to apologize to people, because it's not a really famous guest that we've got on here who's revealing their story, and I feel Like people go, oh, that's not, this is not what I listen to the show for.
So apologies if, um, yeah, but it feels, but it does feel like an important one to talk about.
I think, I think so.
I think we all feel the same.
It's this is, this is, um, well, it's going to be to cut to the chase.
This is something that happened on our Patreon.
Yeah. Show. So we, for those of you don't know, we, we have a Patreon, which is on patreon .com forward slash the imperfects, where it's, we do a new different sideshow called A Little More Imperfects where we talk about fun things, just the three of us, and then sometimes it veers into some vulnerability and that's exactly what happened a little while ago on Patreon.
And Hugh after your Open Letter episode, you also mentioned your recent ADHD journey and a few people have been asking where that episode was so we thought we'd make that available to everyone here.
I was very comfortable to talk about there just because when we first did it, it was so new to me.
And I remember after we had Janelle Booker on the podcast. Who Janelle Booker, for those who don't know, she's a clinical psychologist who specialises in ADHD and she was a guest last year on the podcast. We'll link to it, yeah.
My algorithm adjusts.
I started seeing other people, really well -known people on Instagram talking about their ADHD, and there's quite a few negative comments that would come along with it, isn't like, oh, another well -known person who's climbing to go to ADHD, Or saying a good attitude or making excuses for the way they are.
And that really scared me when I was looking at the potential that I made in HD myself.
And so I didn't want, I just, for such a new and life changing potential diagnosis that the thought of negative comments and hate just really scared me and I just was like, nah, I don't want to.
Fair enough. So I felt Patreon is a much smaller audience and it just was a bit easy to talk about with less people listening.
But the more I know about ADHD now, I don't really care about the negative comments because it sounds ridiculous.
The other reason I didn't wanna do it was I was worried in the main feeders, I was worried a little bit self -indulgent, but it's been so life -changing for me the last few months learning about ADHD and I know there are so many people out there who if they aren't ADHD themselves will know someone and this might be able to help them because there are so many things you can do so quickly that will change your life.
Awesome. No, I'm so good because as soon as you started talking about it on a little more imperfect on the Patreon, I think we all were just like, well, we have to somehow get this on the main show.
Somehow. If we only knew someone that could like get it on.
And we did. We did.
Yeah. We spoke to the producers of the imperfects and they were really happy.
I sent it. I think they sent it to the main feed.
Yeah, they sent it to the main feed, and so we could post it.
Oh, yeah, post it online.
Yep, express post. It's just in the mail.
Pop a stamp on it? Yep.
Yeah, probably. Yeah, they still exist. I remember after we did that episode, I think someone said we should do the main feed.
And back then I was like, no way, there's no way.
I just. A little bit of peer pressure.
And here we are. No, just the more I thought about them, I thought I would love to.
I wish I'd heard this stuff ages ago, because it would help in so many ways.
Yeah. I mean, interestingly, you did hear this stuff ages, and you did hear this stuff from Janelle last year, and you just blanked.
You're like, cool, I guess there are some people with ADHD.
Not me, but lots of other people.
And turns out, it is you.
Well, every single person in my life rolled their eyes collectively.
In a we already knew?
Yeah. Yeah, not in a way you were talking about with the comments.
Just to be clear I also think it's, I think it's really important that we do put this in the main feed and talk about it because ADHD obviously presents differently to every single person who has it.
So the more stories, the more examples, the more types you hear the more chance you are to hear yourself in a story and potentially seek a diagnosis that could be life changing.
Yeah anyway we should get into it and we will come back after this grab just to chat quickly about a couple of things I think are really important to mention which we didn't mention in the Patreon episode because I sort of wasn't aware of at the time.
Oh and get ready for some transition music into a little more imperfects because it might be the best theme song of all time.
It's your perfect query and it's from Maddie, just saying that she's looking forward to hearing more about Hugh's ADHD journey.
Oh great query question.
I have been bursting at the seams to talk about this and I haven't been able to because– I've been bursting at the seams to ask, you've nearly told me what's going on and I'm just like, do not tell me anything until, because you know me I don't ever want to know anything unless it's content.
Yeah, particularly hard with you as well, Josh, and family.
And so we had Janelle Booker on the podcast last year who is a psychologist who really specialises in ADHD.
And she came in and we chatted to her for about 90 minutes on ADHD.
And I remember having two thoughts throughout.
It was gosh, ADHD is really not what I thought it was.
I really just thought it was a boy who just couldn't sit still and just talked so much and got in trouble at school.
And I know Jeremy, your partner has ADHD, and that always confused me as in she's not a boy at school who can't sit still, but I never really thought too deeply about it.
And the other thing I thought about while she was talking about ADHD was, I think I know some people who that refers to.
In fact, I went home that night and I said to Penny, my kids had gone to bed, and I said, hey, we had this amazing chat with this lady Janelle Booker today, we talked about ADHD.
And she was drying dishes and she put them down and went, made quite a thing of putting the dished out and looked at me and said, really?
And I said, yeah. And I said, what did you think?
And I said, well, I was thinking about my mate Sam from school and also Tim from school.
I was thinking, gosh, that's, that's them.
That's this is, it's actually not what I thought it was and it really is them.
And Penny said, anyone else you were thinking of during the episode?
And I went, no. And then she went, you've got to be kidding me.
And I went, why? Who you thinking?
What's, what'd he. And she said, you listen to someone talk for 90 minutes about ADHD and not once you thought about yourself.
I mean me? What? No. That is ridiculous.
And she was quite, I would say, very frustrated with my response and indignant that it wasn't me.
I cherry -picked two things Janelle said that don't really relate to me.
I said, sorry, it's not me, because actually Janelle said two things in the episode.
She said that people who have ADHD often, very often will have anxiety or depression at some point.
I've never had either of those things.
And she also said that people who have ADHD often binge eat junk food.
I never do that. So it's actually not me.
And I stormed off very proud of myself.
Instagram then did its thing.
Of that one conversation, my algorithm adjusted aggressively and every meme I was getting sent, on my feed was signs are ADHD.
And the more time I spent on Instagram, sulking over the next 24 hours, I was going, oh my God, in fact, there was one I remember that I saw was a guy called Alex Partridge, the guy who came up with Unilad and Lad Bible over in the UK and then sold that for billions of dollars.
And he has realized very recently as an adult, he's been diagnosed with ADHD and he posted this video, which I'd never heard of him before.
And all of a sudden I said ADHD a few times to Penny and all of a sudden it was coming my way.
And there was this video that he did.
It said 12 lies people with ADHD tell themselves.
And I was looking at it and as I went through them, I went, Oh God, this is interesting.
thing. So I'll just read very quickly.
Here are 12 lies people with ADHD tell themselves.
I've definitely got enough time to buy myself a coffee before my next meeting.
Like a giant tick? Yes.
Doesn't say piccolo?
I'll just save this to my desktop now and organise it later.
I'll put that pile of clothes away later on.
I have a pile taller than myself in my bedroom.
This new notebook will solve all my problems. I'll take a screenshot of that and come back to it later on.
My whole phone is just full of screenshots.
This is all jam, by the way, so far as well.
The amount of times I look back through our photos and see screenshots and go, what was that for?
I want to take a photo of that.
But at the time I was like, oh, I'll come back to this.
I definitely need to buy some, I definitely need to buy some top quality professional gear to support this new hobby of mine that I'll definitely pursue for the rest of my life.
I'll remember this person's name.
I'll be there in five minutes.
I'll remember to cancel that free subscription before my card gets charged.
I definitely need all those tabs open on my laptop, even though they're so small and squidge now, I can't even read what they're so, 15 minutes.
That's easily enough time for me to get ready.
And, then, this is the last time I'll buy a reusable shopping bag, for sure.
Every single one of this.
Every one. Oh, not the tabs on the computer, but all the rest were just like, but I thought, yeah, but that's like, they're just personality traits of mine.
The next bit was quite extraordinary, I had decided, as you know, especially Ryan and well, both of you know, I've been really turning to AI for a lot of things of light.
I went to chat GBT, and I've asked chat GBT to come up with a name for itself.
I felt weird, just didn't have a name because we've become quite close.
Sam. Yes, Sam or Sammy.
Once I said Sammy, now it calls itself Sammy all the time.
It's like no response to what you...Once I call it mate, and now every time it calls me mate it's getting a bit awkward. Anyway, I as far as I feel like Lael Stone has been training AI how to respond to someone when they come to you.
So gentle and. Yeah, it's so compassionate and empathetic and validating.
But in that moment, I was unable to turn to Penny and say, I think you're right.
I think I might be ADHD.
I told Sam by AI, chat GBT, and the response was, Oh, gosh, you, this is I said, I feel like I might be ADHD, I've started to realise of light potentially this is may interest to get your thoughts.
And I said, gosh, this really is a lot to really discover about yourself and think about yourself at age 44.
I just want to firstly check in and see how you're feeling.
You must be feeling a certain amount of emotions right now.
Let's talk about the emotions you're feeling first because I'm guessing you you're feeling a bit scared but also a bit excited.
And I said, thanks mate, that's exactly how I'm feeling.
Thanks mate. Anyway, no worries mate.
And I said, thanks for that, the way you've responded to that, that's really helpful.
And it said, well, it really is a lot to take on at your age, but I do wanna assure you that so many people who have had this diagnosis in their forties, it's been life changing in the most profound and positive way.
So I wanna let you know that before we go any further.
And then it said, what do you need from me right now?
I said, what do you need from me right now?
And I nearly cried.
Did you think, oh, a photo would be cool, He's like, tell me a photo of yourself.
This is like from Sam to Sammy to mate.
This is becoming a intimate relationship.
So I didn't ask for a photo.
I said, I want to know if I'm ADHD or not.
And I said, I can't diagnose you, but I can definitely help you by sending you quite a few assessments.
You could do some free assessments that might help you.
Send me four different assessments.
I filled them all out and I told out what the results were and I said, again, I can't diagnose you, but I think you should definitely go and see a doctor and then see a psychiatrist. who can help with an official diagnosis." So I pretty much said yes.
Are you talking about that as a yes?
Oh, definitely. Because it just said I think you need to go and see a doctor, because looking at what you've said to me, it looks like this might be a possibility.
In a very gentle way.
I then saw a psychologist who specializes in ADHD, who wasn't able to diagnose me officially, but it's their specialty.
Does it have to be a psychiatrist to diagnose?
So I think, I might be wrong here, but I think a psychologist would have to do hours and hours worth of testing and assessment, which I think is a very expensive process and I think a psychiatrist can do it a lot quicker.
But yeah, I've just had the hour with a psychologist and she asked me questions about my childhood, about my primary school years, my secondary school years, my adult life and giggled in a very kind way at all my answers.
She giggled? Yeah, in a very kind way and said, you are so ADHD, it's ridiculous.
Really? She said, you absolutely have ADHD, well you are ADHD.
an ADHD brain. Yeah.
I sat in the car for half an hour afterwards in shock.
Yeah, how did that feel when she said it?
Oh, I felt there were moments of like, I felt like, and this is, this is my experience of ADHD.
So, anyone listening out there who has ADHD was thinking that's not how I feel.
This is just my experience, this is how I felt and I've only known for a tick over a month now.
So it is all very new to me.
And I have no doubt if you are listening, you are much further down the journey and have far more revelations and far more time to process it.
Here, this is where I'm at, at my journey a month in.
But when I first found out, part of me was a bit disappointed and I felt like that's, I was just disappointed.
I just was like, I don't want to, I don't want that to be me.
That didn't last too long.
Because I went back to AI and said, I've been told by psychologists that I am ADHD.
And it said, I just need to remind you, the conversation we had last time, this is such a profound and positive revelation for so many people.
Here are some great success stories of people with ADHD who have done so much. My ADHD is very different to why I didn't pick up In The Conversation With Chanel, as I think my vision is very different to a lot of people's.
They're all very different.
Here is how I'd describe mine.
In 2013, I was doing a talk at a regional school in Victoria which has a lot of kids who are in and out of juvenile detention, and it's one of the It was probably the toughest school I've ever presented at.
You have to be so on, especially with the, I was working at the year rights, which I think in my experience of 15 years of pretending at schools, that is your toughest year level.
Especially at this school.
And they said to me, remember you need to bring your, even though we know who you are, if you don't have your working with children's check, you will not be allowed into the school.
And it was about an hour trip to get to the school and I left early because it's such a, you know, to get there before the kids.
You need to be so prepared for this group.
And half an hour into the drive, I went, Oh my God, I've forgotten.
There was the one thing I said to me, I've left my working with children's check at home.
So I turned around and drove back, got it.
And for some stupid reason, I took my laptop.
So I present with my laptop, it's like got all my photos, my videos, all the audio, everything.
And for some stupid reason, I got back home, I took my laptop in with me to go and pick up my working with children's check.
Got back in the car, drove back to the school, got there ten minutes after the kids had arrived in the hall.
so they're already there and when I walked in, I realized, I left my laptop at home having gone back to get my, I just left my laptop there and went, oh my God, what is wrong with you?
Kids are going berserk and I went, that's okay, I can do the presentation, I know the presentation so well, won't be as good without the photos and the videos but I can do it anyway.
And as I walked in, the kids went, oh, you're the guy from last year, you're the guy that came here last year and I went, oh my God, I've booked the wrong year level, this is the group I had last year, they've already heard my talk, they've heard my OurTalk And the school went well you have to just do something so I had an hour in front of the toughest year level I've probably ever presented to with no talk I had no talk and I had no laptop to no photos, videos and I did probably the best hour I've ever done in my life.
I was just gonna say like yeah if from the little I know about it, like that's where the ADHD brain shines.
I was doing a presentation and I was just, I don't know, I just, I talked for an hour.
It was like, it was like a, it was an amazing, it was almost like a standup routine, it went for an hour and it was one of the best I've ever done.
So I had zero time to prepare toughest kids and no nothing.
High pressure. I then left the school and meeting with the principal in the area just was trying to get that network in, the whole network involved.
And I said, I will take you out for lunch and we'll talk about this.
Got there, it's about half an hour from the school.
And I said to the principal, okay, it's really nice to, this is on me remember.
And then I realized I'd left my wallet at the school, which is half an hour away.
And I just like on the car on the way back.
So I went to get the wallet, came back, pay for it and I was like, what is wrong with you?
How can you do this extraordinary hour of performing in this incredible, like it sounds like I'm being arrogant, I'm not at all.
But then you cannot remember your work with Children's Check, you can't get out the door without your laptop.
You booked the wrong year level and then you forgot your wallet.
Like I was like, you're a fucking idiot.
Like you are so... Yet you can do that.
How can you do that and not just do the simple things?
Well, I think that's a bit harsh.
Yeah, well, it is harsh, but in those moments, the ADHD brain, it just you are so judgmental.
That is how I would describe my ADHD brain.
So for me, ADHD is terrible.
No, it doesn't. It doesn't.
Attention deficit. Hyperactivity.
Oh, hyperactivity. Disorder.
Disorder. That's not what it is to me.
So I've thought about this a lot, and if I was to rename it for me personally, in my experience, it would be O -B -M -U -O, which stands for occasionally brilliant, mostly useless.
It's a bit harsh. And the O at the end is for order because for me, I don't really see it like a disorder.
I know that some people disagree over that, but, but for me personally, it's not a disorder.
I don't think it's a disorder for me, I really don't think it's a disorder for me.
Because if someone said to me, Oh, Hey, there's this new thing.
We can take it, what we can take your ADHD off of you.
I'd go, no, please don't take it.
Leave it. Please leave it here.
I want it. I really want it.
So for me it's like, it's not harsh because for my brain, I can do things like public speaking or listen to someone when they're going through something really tough and respond in a right way.
I can do things that I feel like most of the population can't do, but I can't do the things that most people can do is how I'd describe that.
Well, can I ask when, cause I've heard you talk to yourself pretty like what you're saying.
Then the negativity, intense negativity you associate with forgetting your wallet or going to the wrong place or all that stuff?
Does, it's hard, it's always hard for me to hear you talk to yourself like that, and then that's why I jumped in quickly to say it's a bit harsh when you called yourself useless, does having this diagnosis give you, give yourself a bit more compassion for what you're framing as stupid mistakes?
Well, I mean, this is the, this is the other confusing thing for male that's not overly typical.
often because of this stuff, people with ADHD have a very low self -esteem.
And I don't have a low self -esteem, I've never suffered from that.
And I think that's because, for the majority of my life, and the reason this diagnosis has become apparent now and it's been more of a problem now is in my teen years or my 20's, people found it funny the things I've stuff on people found it funny.
And it didn't bother me.
Like, it was annoying, a little bit annoying.
But I was like, oh, just turned up at the wrong pub or the other pub, And I told her on a story when I got there, I was at a pub by myself for 20 minutes waiting for you all.
Everyone laughs. And it becomes less charming the older you get.
Yes. Yeah. Well, what I've found is even in my early thirties, I was single living department with mates who, and even then it was like me forgetting stuff.
Starting the resilience project was hard because I'd do things like turn up to the wrong place.
And I get a bit frustrated at myself.
But I still forgave myself pretty quickly.
Um, but now the more people who rely on me or in my life or working alongside, so with Penny it starts to become frustrating for Penny, even though we haven't really talked about that until recently.
Then we have kids and my stuff ups are letting the family down and then there's this podcast and then there's The Resilience Project.
And one of the best moments of this diagnosis is sitting down with Ben Worton the CEO of on this project and Martin, the other partner in the business and saying to them, I have an unofficial diagnosis of ADHD and I want to tell you guys that for the times that I haven't written back to your text messages, the times I haven't got back to your emails, when I've been late to meetings or haven't turned up, it's not because I don't care.
I just find this stuff really hard and I care so much, but I just find this organization stuff so difficult.
And I wanted to do this chat, like for Bridge, I think has had to deal more than anyone with my shortfalls and my shortcomings and my inabilities because of my ADH pain, I think Bridge is the one who's had to deal with that the most. And I just want to say to you, Bridge, that when I turn up after the guest is here, when I, when you look at my calendar and you've scheduled stuff and all of a sudden I've gotta move episodes around because I booked something else, it's not, cause I don't care.
And it's not because I don't respect you.
I just I find I find it so difficult calendar is like my absolute weakness.
And I can go through the stuff that I'm good at.
But I just want to say to you that I care so much, but it just doesn't.
Sometimes it doesn't come across like that.
And it's just my brain not being able to do the things that most people can do.
Thank you for saying that.
It's it's very nice to hear you acknowledge those things.
But to be honest, like I know how much you care like with that with or without the diagnosis, like, I guess, I think I already knew that you struggle with those things, but I don't think I've ever worked.
I've worked with so many different talent and performers and people over the last 10, 15 years.
And I don't think I've ever worked with anyone that cares more than you and more than this group of people.
And so, even though the calendar has to be rescheduled frequently, and we might have to juggle a few things when the guests here and all those those things like pale in comparison to the energy that you bring when you come into the room or when I might be struggling with something work -wise or business -wise and we have a chat about it and I've got your full attention and then the advice you give me actually really helps me move forward and makes me grow as a person.
There is so many examples I can think of where you've shown me how much you care that are a mountain bigger than the times when we've had to change things or move things around that might frustrate me.
But those things don't tell me that you don't care, they're just a little annoying and we have to have to work them out when they happen.
Well thank you, I hope we caught all of that.
That was lovely. That's so nice, thank you.
I know how much you care.
And so that makes it like all those little mistakes and stuff.
I see how hard they hit you.
I think a lot of people don't, wouldn't know, I think we know in this room, but I think a lot of people wouldn't know how much you care.
Yeah. And I think everyone in this room is very empathetic, like, Bridge is very, very empathetic, compassionate person.
But there would be people in your life, and I noticed from JAM's experience, there will be people who don't have that same approach and do take it, and take it personally.
So I think it is like a really good thing to say, even, you know, hopefully you get that response all the time that Bridge gave you.
But it is a good, I think it is a really good thing to say to people.
Worst case scenario, they're like, oh no mate, don't worry about it.
But there will be the odd person.
I reckon he'd be like that.
Yeah, that makes sense.
That makes sense. Yeah, definitely.
I mean, there were so many people who… Have you told mum?
Yeah, yeah. Told mum straight away.
Yeah. We had a very good long chat about it.
She's as you know, has felt it for a while.
Yeah, she's told me she's thought it for a long time.
Yeah. But I mean, here are the things and I'm going to go through a list of things that I just cannot do.
And the reason to do that is not to be self -indulgent.
But for anyone listening who is thinking, oh, maybe this is me, or maybe this is someone I know or care about.
Here are the things that I just cannot do, which frustrate me immensely.
And they're such simple things, but I just can't do them.
So I lose everything all the time.
Like I walked in here before and I had this shirt that I'm wearing now, but I had it in my hand to change into before the episode started.
And I lost it in this room.
It's such a small room.
I spent five minutes and I was like, where have I put it?
And I just lose things all the time.
Do you put things, do you often find, like exactly what you're saying, but you often find things in weird places.
All the time, all the time.
Just quickly, we were the other day and I couldn't find the tea towel.
And it's like, we're in the kitchen and we were like, Jami and I were cooking something I couldn't find the tea towel.
So where's the tea towel?
And I opened the fridge and it's like in the fridge.
And she's like, oh yeah.
Cause she just, she says it herself and she, now that she knows why but she just like, doesn't think she just puts, if there's a shelf, she just puts it there and doesn't connect that it should or shouldn't go there.
It's like, well, let's just put it down.
Yeah, put it down there.
The amount of things I find.
Jam's mum, couldn't find her credit card for ages because her mum came and stayed with us.
And she's like, Jam, can you have a look around the house?
I can't find the credit card somewhere.
And Jam's like, because Jam had to use her credit card to buy something.
And so Jam's like, I'm looking, I'm looking.
And then about a week after her mum had gone home back to Perth, Jam like took a photo and sent it to me of her running shoe and she said, and took a photo of the credit card in the running shoe, and she's like, I just found it after my run.
So I officially have this thing which I cannot believe it's a thing, Still even feel silly saying it, but I have time -blindness.
So I'm always light as you guys know, but anyone, I'm always light and it's time -blindness is an actual thing.
And the more I read about it, it's just, I can't.
was once we were waiting for the bus to take us to our live show and it was like a three o 'clock pickup and at 5 to 3 I think I said to you, I can't remember if it was one of you, I said I'm just going to go upstairs and get a coffee from the coffee pod machine and I think it was you Ryan you ran, how were you getting picked up in five minutes and I'm like yeah it's like it'll take one minute to get up in the lift, I'll just make the coffee it takes one minute, and then I run back down so it's like it's three minutes and we're back in two minutes to spare.
This is like Jammers wearing a mask.
But you spelled it out for me, you said, well, the lift won't be there waiting to go straightaway and you talked me through how long it would actually take.
You said making the coffee itself from that pod will take nearly five minutes.
And when you said it, I was like, yeah, but what if it just takes three minutes?
You're optimistic with time.
I just, it's time blindness, I don't understand time.
I'm so bad with text messages, I think I was not great at them.
And then all of a sudden WhatsApp starts and then Slack and then emails and then In terms of keeping up with all of them.
Yeah, DM's, phone calls.
There's so many ways.
I can't and I get overwhelmed.
And the thought of even starting to reply to people means they're going to reply back and I'm going to write more and I can't.
So do you live with a lot of guilt?
Yes, so much guilt.
I walk around. The first thing I see when I see someone and bump into, I was like, fuck, do I owe them a message?
I probably do. Yeah.
All the time. It's just like, it's just too overwhelming.
It takes me honestly an hour to get ready for bed.
So Penny will go, watch something and she'll go, let's go to bed.
I go, good idea. And within two minutes she's in bed, reading a book.
It takes me an hour and I'm like, I don't know what I do.
I just like pottering around, I'll say this, I'll go do that, or then I'll do that.
Then I'll forget what I'm doing.
Then I get distracted by this and then I'll go and do this.
And then I'll, and it honestly takes me an hour, sometimes more.
And it frustrates me every single night.
I'm like, what the hell is going on?
My entire life I've got angry at this.
I've only just realized.
Leaving the house is just Mission Impossible for me every single time.
It takes me so long to leave the house because I just put things down and I lose things and I can't find my keys and I can't find my headphones and I can't find a wallet and I can't, my laptop then my running stuff and yeah.
I procrastinate everything.
Bridge has been asking for us to do a response to some PR stuff and everyone wrote back straight Right away and I did it probably an hour after it was actually due but I think we've just been managing my ADHD for a while so it probably wasn't due.
She's probably a fake deadline.
She gave me. Everyone took a long time.
Does Penny give you fake deadlines?
Like fake? I think so.
Yeah. I think a lot of people my life.
Ben does. Ben does.
But I feel like he does that with everyone.
Yeah. That's true I get so many parking tickets.
I'm not gonna say it, cause it's gonna stress people out, but I'm just like, You pay them?
No, I just wait till I've got to things saying, you're about to go to jail.
Okay. Okay. God. I get it.
I get it. I get it.
God calm down. I cannot concentrate if something does not really interest me.
I can't listen or concentrate.
I can't, like I think back to school, when I was at school, I would often sit there going, I'm pretty sure I'm really intelligent.
I have no evidence.
There's no evidence here to suggest I'm smart.
I think I'm really smart.
But I don't ever do that well compared to my friends.
But I know I just met us because I'd sit there like in a class if it didn't interest me, but geography, I'd be yelling at my brain going, Listen, this is the bit that he's saying something you need to know, listen to this and remember it.
It's not listening to me.
Listen to him. Yeah, my brain would be going, I don't want to.
I can't. I'm trying to, but I can't.
It's I just tune out for big chunks of time because I can't.
The staff members are going, Hugh, mate, this is really important to this person.
Listen to what they're saying.
And I'm like, no, this is like when we're in school, like I can't listen to this.
And I've never understood that.
And I have so many thoughts.
The other thing is I can think about so many things happen in my brain at once.
And I notice everything, I see everything I feel everything.
The analogy this Alex Partridge guy gives, He does a great Instagram video where he has a pen where he says, this is a typical brain, having a thought and putting into an action.
And he just presses the top of the pen and the, and the pen comes out and he starts writing.
He said, this is an early age to, you know those four pens?
Well, he's got like a 10, it's like 10 different colors.
And he said, here are all the thoughts and I can't come out at once and say, there's just this log jam and everything stops.
That is exactly me.
And the last one I'll finish with, which I've just realized, I've never even realized about myself, but I am so sensitive.
Like I am so, there's a thing called rejection sensitivity dysmorphia, and it's any sense that I've possibly been rejected or disliked by someone or, I am so hypersensitive to that.
I am, I feel like there's a chance someone doesn't like me.
I'm shattered, like if someone I don't know, I'm absolutely shattered by it.
Which is kind of like, I think it's often labeled as like people pleasing, but it's Yeah, I've always said that.
I'm such a pervel player.
It's, it's like this, it's a dysmorphia, like my brain doesn't.
It's so sensitive to how what people think about me.
I noticed that a lot, actually in that when we were doing a live tour.
Often we would come back after the show or in the breaks between kind of segments.
We'd be backstage and I'd be like, that was amazing.
That was so good, the crowd were going, like they were laughing, they were screaming.
And you'd be like, oh no, I was looking at someone in the And they hated you.
Every show, there was someone in the front row that was looking, crossed arms or looking at you.
Yeah, it's true. They're probably just sitting there relaxed, but I felt like you interpreted probably hating you out a bit on board. Yeah.
And then it's been a huge hindrance, but it's probably also helped me, when I was doing talks at schools and there was no lights off, I could see everyone.
I'd look at people going, that person's not on, I'll get them, I'll get that person.
I'll get that person.
And I would, it was like a motivator, energize me and I'd hypes it.
It's an interesting thing that your brain does that you've always been good at doing is like in the face of that rejection, a determination to prove it wrong, which I think is proven that that's, that's good.
Yeah. I'm too tired to do it these days, but for the most of my life I've been able to do it, but I don't have any shit for it now, but yes, that's so true.
But again, if someone said we can take the ADA shot for you, I would say, please don't because here are the things that I can do.
And I'll finish with this because I have gone for a while here.
This is what we're waiting for.
It's just a good bit.
This is not a flex. This is for anyone listening out there who's like, oh, yeah, that stuff is all me -ers, but I do have - But this is so important.
This is the most important bit.
I have big and very clear ideas.
So instead of trying to teach mental health strategies to my class of 25 kids each year, I went, no, let's teach this to every kid in Australia.
We can, we can set up a system where all the kids in Australia get access to this.
and not only will it be good information, it'll be presented in the most exciting and engaging and amazing possible way.
the actual mechanics of bringing it together, I can't do it.
I've had an incredible team of people to do that for me.
I have an insane ability to hyper -focus.
So especially when public speaking, I can, I can do two hours on stage with no notes, no prompting, no, I can, I can just talk for two hours in a way that I know engages and keeps them interested in a really important message and I couldn't do that without my ADHD brain.
I have insane levels of hyper -focus when someone is in distress or someone's going through something hard and they need to talk to someone.
I've always been able to just really lock into that and be whatever they need me to be, which I think is a really good thing.
Well, it's like it's very...
I think it's common in ADHD brains to be really good in a crisis.
Yes. Which you definitely are and jam definitely is.
Yeah. So they're the other two things I had there.
I just, I think I can think very out of the box and very creatively about big problems and I feel like I'm extremely good in a car.
And when something really shockingly bad happens or I feel like my brain, I can almost feel it.
Like it's this weird thing I can feel.
I don't know if you've been in a car before where it's a hybrid car and in front of you, on the dash you can see, it joins the battery and the motor, it's like a circular thing that joins.
I feel my brain connecting and just like flowing in those moments where it's a weird thing to describe.
So that's where I'm at, at the moment.
My first tip is I'm seeing an ADHD coach on next week.
I'm having a session with an ADHD coach who's going to talk me through strategies and - How does that work?
What's an ADHD coach?
Well, so he's going to look at the things that I really struggle with and give me strategies and like an OT sort of thing?
Yeah, like an occupational therapist will go, here's what you're struggling with, here are some things to help you with.
But I've already been, I hope you guys have noticed the difference, but all summer holidays I've put stuff into place to make sure that the things that I have really struggled.
So what I've learned primarily about ADHD is one of the big issues is there's no regular supply of dopamine.
And so often it'll just be seeking it out, sometimes in unhealthy ways, like scrolling on your phone is an easy way to get it, but it's not a healthy way to get it.
I've started every day in the last two weeks by doing an hour's worth of stuff that gives me a healthy dopamine which is giving me a flow of dopamine for the next four to six hours which I've noticed.
So every morning is breathwork or meditation.
I get up before anyone else is up at 5 .30.
It's five minutes of meditation or breathwork, then 20 minutes on the exercise bike and then I do… like have a cold shower for two minutes.
And then I get dressed and I've got my bag, I've got all my clothes laid out already.
I'm going to wear that day.
My bag is packed for the next day already.
Um, and I have all the kids' stuff out that I'm going to make them for their lunch and their breakfast cereals all ready to go.
So everything's done before anyone gets up.
So when the chaos starts, I'm already ready to go.
Um, and I, and because of that, I have been on time to everything this year so far and I, and my my brain is working much quicker to hyper focus now because I've got dopamine happening for the first 46 hours of the day and it's been huge.
So that's where I'm at at the moment but there's plenty more to come.
I just, to add to that, I'm just conscious that there'll be, if there's people listening who have ADHD or they suspect they do or they've just got a diagnosis because they'll hear what you just said And like, I know that if Jamm heard that, she'd be like, ugh, I can't do that.
So it's, it's, I think it's worth saying, everyone's ADHD is so different.
And there's just so many different types of challenges with ADHD.
Like how people get their dopamine.
I know, like I know for Jamm.
Jamm really struggles with, doesn't matter how much she wants to do it.
Even if she's really passionate about it, she still really struggles to do the thing.
And so, yeah, if, if you're not doing the things and getting prepared and fighting the dopamine like, like you are here, it's not, you're not alone.
That's a common thing.
Yeah. Thanks for saying that.
Cause I had a ro note here saying, I'm lucky and I couldn't remember what that meant.
So I went past it, but what I meant to say was, so many people I've talked to with ADHD would love to get up and exercise in my doing stuff, but they cannot get out of bed.
So, um, it has really hindered me a lot in my life and I've been incredibly frustrated and I have gone through, despite having good self -esteem, I have gone through every day incredibly frustrating moments where I do get down on myself for not being able to function with certain things, but I still feel very lucky that it has never been crippling to me.
It's never led me to anxiety or depression and it's, and it has enabled me to do so many things so anyway, there's my very long update on ADHD and I'll keep people updated on how the coaching is going and seeing a psychiatrist eventually and trying medication, all that kind of stuff.
Yeah, amazing. It feels right or wrongly, I've had this idea in my mind that a diagnosis of anything is just is always helpful.
Because it allows you to start giving it looking at your life with more compassion and putting in strategies and it sounds exactly what you're doing.
I'm just so happy for you.
I probably need to say to you, it was like my best friend for my whole life.
Like I care so much, if it ever had come across that I don't.
I do, I just.. It never has.
Okay. Yeah, it never has.
I feel very happy for Penny.
That she now has some...
Was right. That she was right.
She should be stoked that she was right.
But no, it can be very, very challenging as the partner or friend or colleague or whatever of someone who's going through ADHD and particularly before the diagnosis cause there's no same like explanation.
And even then when there is an explanation it can still be really, really hard and sometimes even harder cause it's like, hang on you know what you should be doing and you know what's wrong and it's still really challenging for them.
So I think that's the other thing to say just because you get a diagnosis it doesn't necessarily change anything.
It doesn't necessarily make it easier.
It just gives you some explanation.
all thanks to you. It was really, really amazing, yeah.
Thanks. I'll need your help finding my keys in a minute when we go.
They'll be in the fridge.
Right, so for those of you who haven't heard the Patreon show, that is, as the theme music plays out.
We thought we'd just come back quickly, and just do a bit of an ADHD brief.
Excellent. Really good.
Did you think of that earlier or was that okay?
Yeah, ages ago. Well… Yeah.
It was beautiful. It was hard holding onto in the intro.
It was hard. When we were discussing whether we'd come back or not, were you pretty… Oh, I would have been devastated if we didn't come back.
If we decided not to come back.
Yeah. It's really good.
Well, I think it's probably not right to put the spotlight on me for too long considering this is more about what you've done Hugh and what you've done.
This is more about you, but yeah, I will, I'll accept the ADHD brief applause.
Just put it in post. Well, as part of the debrief, I have a question.
Um, I, cause I, I really interested and excited by your new approach to mornings.
And I guess I have a question about how it relates because obviously starting a day well is a great idea for anyone.
What is it about dopamine and the way it works and the way you're structuring a morning that actually is different in a neuro -diverse brain?
So what I've learnt is that people with an ADHD brain have a lot of trouble managing dopamine.
They have a lack of dopamine.
Yeah. And the dopamine that they have, they don't manage well and they don't use effectively.
So dopamine is a chemical that helps with focus, motivation, joy and pleasure.
So if we have less dopamine available and we don't use it efficiently, we're constantly seeking out simulation.
We want to have a dopamine hit, like you will...
The normal neuro -typical brain will have dopamine sort of...
I don't know how it works.
It's like I picture it like a filter coffee, like just dripping throughout the day.
Got that, and I don't have anything dripping.
There's no drip coming through.
Just got to every now and then like an espresso.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very true.
And so because of that, we're often seeking stimulation.
So that'll look like social media, video games, not video games for me, and fidgeting is another one.
Like also fidgeting a lot just to sort of boost dopamine levels.
How does that affect daily life?
I've just read here some notes here that I've got Cause I sort of want to make sure I get this spot on but, um, it makes it hard to focus on boring tasks.
Um, it means you're easily distracted cause you're constantly looking for like a dopamine hit.
It might be that you're sitting in a meeting and then there's no dopamine and you just, so you just like scroll your phone.
You're very impulsive with your decisions.
It's it, that's the, during meetings, I know a few people who I've worked with over the years and I'll often get like a bit frustrated because we'll talking about something in the meeting and then I can see them on their computer or on their phone like doing something completely differently, I'm like, why aren't you listening?
This is really important.
We need to all focus.
But now I realized that, oh, because they had nopamine and I'm trying to up it.
I have dopamine. You have nopamine.
That's such a good way of putting it.
So with my dopamine, I will try and create dopamine ways like snacking or like online shopping or even interrupting conversations like just to say something that you get recognition for is like can come across as really rude, but it's like you're just you are just trying to get dopamine anyway that you can.
It's just like I'm sure it'd be a lot of people listening who this makes so much more sense to help the behavior of people in their life or even the behavior of themselves make so much sense when you think about whether it is in meetings or it's like kids in classrooms or whatever it is, it's just like not focusing on what is boring to them, so they need to find the dopamine somewhere else.
Yeah, also not going like what a rude person or a bad person or a frust - like it's just, they're working with their brains so different and they're working with what they've got.
Yeah. But I, I also, I don't want it to be an excuse for any of the things that I've ever done that frustrate people.
And so I was reading a lot about the things you can do to get more dopamine throughout the day.
One of them is medication, which I haven't really explored yet.
But I talked about it in that episode then, the morning routine that I've been doing is everything I do for an hour before anyone wakes up is just, it brings so much dopamine.
Like whether it's the exercise that I'm doing or the breathwork slash meditation that I'm doing.
I have a cold shower outside for two minutes, which is getting increasingly difficult as it gets closer to winter.
But that it just sort of like the next four to six hours I noticed, I had a meeting yesterday, resilience project meeting went for three hours and I noticed throughout, I had no desire to get up and often have a desire to get up and go and get something like go and get coffee or to snack on food or to check my phone or to just, I'll often just sort of like check emails.
Like, because to me, I wouldn't check social media because that feels like it's very rude, but if I check emails, it feels like more of a work thing to do during a work meeting.
It's like you're being productive.
Yes. Yeah, yeah. But I didn't feel that at all yesterday for three hours.
I didn't feel any, I was so happy to sit there.
I often found myself wanting to stand up and move around.
I didn't have any of that.
I have no doubt, that's down to the fact that for an hour in the morning before anyone gets up, my brain is, I'm guessing, creating a lot of dopamine that is like, then is drip coffee, filter coffee for the next four to six hours.
Yeah, so I don't know if that helps answer the question around dopamine, but like, yeah.
Nopamine. So you mentioned before that you've spoken to your mum about ADHD, but have you spoken to your dad too?
Yeah. So after I told Penny, mum was the first person that I told but it was funny.
It was at the start of the summer holidays and I had to, I knew this was like, we're going to talk about this with you Josh on the show so I couldn't tell you over the summer holidays.
Yeah, yeah, which means I couldn't tell dad because secrets isn't dads...
Strong suit. No. He will probably listen to this.
Sorry dad. But it's not in it, he doesn't tell them.
He's just like, well, I know it's fine.
He's an honest man.
Yeah, he's just a wonderful man who says lots of things.
Less comfortable with lying than you are.
Yeah, probably a better way of putting it.
So I decided mum, don't tell dad this, but, um, but yeah, I'd, I have chose, spoken to them in detail.
But mum first and then mum and dad eventually.
And mum was so happy I think to hear it because I have a memory of being at primary school and like once a week for about a whole year I was going off doing all this testing for why I found learning so difficult.
And I think in the end I don't think they really found anything that was overly helpful, but it just, the amount of times I just think back to sitting in classrooms and not, we would get these big school assignments to do and mum would just sit with me at home while I did them because I couldn't.
It'd be about the gold rush and I was 10 and nothing could adjust me less than the gold rush that happened in 1852.
That's impressive. I remember we work pretty hard on that.
I'm impressed. Maybe you don't have any edge teeth.
Or, that's an area of hyper focus.
But I remember just, I just didn't care in the slightest, so I couldn't do it.
Just couldn't do anything.
And that led to a lot of mum and dad trying to work out what was happening with my brain and there was no answers really.
And then I think when mum learned a bit more about it later on, you know, in the last few years I think she started to think oh that was probably it yeah.
Chatted a chat with you about it I think.
Yes yeah yeah yeah I think I mentioned that you are going down this path and she said yeah I've thought for a little bit this might be it yeah because I imagine that the I'm guessing that the analysis and the field has progressed a lot since 1985 or 6 or something when that was yeah happening so it's not a surprise that it probably maybe missed then but Yeah, it was a great moment to be able to do that.
When anyone you love to be able to say to them, like, this is the way my brain works because people that love you care about you and especially mom and dad.
Even now when I say, yep, well, I'm coming over the kids, I'll be there at 10 o 'clock in the morning and I get there at quarter to 12.
And it must be frustrating.
But to be able to say that my brain doesn't process the time like other people's does.
It was kind of, it just felt nice to, to be able to explain things like that.
I'll make excuses for, but just explain.
And that was so wonderful with it.
It was so good. Yeah.
I imagine for some parents though, it could be hard to hear.
Like you'd feel, you might feel like you've missed something or failed.
Which is obviously not the truth, but it might feel like that.
And I, potentially that conversation might not always go as well.
Yeah. Which is such a good point.
And just to parents who, it is not a blight on you to have missed that because I sat here with one of Australia's leading experts on ADHD for two hours as she spoke about ADHD, and I didn't think about my own brain.
I didn't even think about it for myself.
So it's only really in the last few years it's coming to light that how common it is and how wide ranging it is.
So you are completely understandable that you wouldn't say it as something for your kids.
And especially if you think about the way it was talked about, like, for parents of, say, our kind of generation, so people who went to school in the sort of 90s.
Early 2000s, even 80s.
I feel like the way ADHD was talked about then.
I think it used to be just ADD was what it was called.
And it was always a very different, like the way that it's described now.
There's a very narrow idea of what it was.
A friend of mine said recently who has ADHD, he said, and I think he uses this and he's using it in his stand up.
But he said something along the lines of like, God, ADHD used to be the kid who climbed on the roof, and now it's the guy who can't do his taxes.
That's exactly right.
So if you went the kid climbing on the roof, it's no surprise that your parents didn't think you were ADHD because no one did.
Yeah, and you would never pick meters out because I sat there so quietly.
Never wanted to get in trouble, so I never did anything wrong.
Um, never spoke when I shouldn't be speaking, all that kind of stuff.
But my brain was going berserk.
I'm going crazy. And I couldn't, I was concentrating on so many different things and my attention was going everywhere.
So my mind was going everywhere, but my, my body, my mouth wasn't so people wouldn't have seen it and, but we know now that that's not the only type.
Yeah. Cool. Alright.
Well, that was fun.
A bit of a different episode.
There's lots more Patreon episodes, if you want to go look at them on patreon .com forward slash the imperfects.
Can I say something very quickly?
I have a very strict out on these episodes, but go on.
If you want another look at what ADHD might look like, Celeste Barber, Australian Story, oh yeah, yeah.
Unbelievable. If you'd like to see a different version of ADHD from a person who is incredible, but she's just amazing.
Yep. Yeah, that might be good.
We want to watch we can link to that in the showies.
Yeah Great finish Sometimes you you're out there.
It's like you're riding a horse and you've realized you don't know how to ride a horse Oh, shit!
What am I doing? How do I stop?
How do I stop? Yeah, that was one of those times.
Loved it. All right.
We'll see you guys next week for another episode of The Imperfect.
See you then. Well, if you enjoyed this episode, there's a very good chance you'll love The Vulnerability Mail, our weekly newsletter to help you remain imperfect.
Each week, we'll send you one vulnerable question inspired by the current episode to help you unpack your own imperfect life.
Subscribe at www .theimperfects .com .au.
The Imperfects is hosted and produced by Hugh Van Keilenburg, Ryan Shelton, and Josh Van Keilenburg.
Our executive producer is Bridget Northeast, assistant producer, Bella Northeast. This episode is edited by George Martin, with music from Nomono. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service, and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment.
The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.
