from lincoln news i'm leah smart host of everyday better an award -winning podcast dedicated to personal development join me every week for captivating stories and research to find more fulfillment in your work and personal life listen to everyday better on the linkedin podcast network apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts from linkedin news i'm jesse hempel host of the hello monday podcast start your week with the hello monday podcast we'll navigate career pivots We'll learn where happiness fits in.
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Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process.
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Elena, thanks for joining us today.
Pami, thanks so much for having me.
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
I would love to. I serve as in -house counsel for Advent Health, which is an 83 ,000 employee healthcare system.
And that actually brings me to my next point, which is a disclaimer, of course.
I'm an employed attorney, but my interview here, speaking with you, this actually doesn't represent the views of my employer.
So the views are my own.
I'm not the CEO of my own law firm.
Actually, I'm not the CEO of even my own life, because my 8 -year -old runs my life and she tells me exactly what to do." Well, yes, so there you go.
I'm a first generation attorney.
I'm an immigrant. And I'm a healthcare and business law generalist working in -house.
Fantastic. This is great.
And Elena, can you tell them about your book too?
Oh yes, thank you so much for mentioning this.
Twenty -three women lawyers wrote a book called Women in Law, discovering the true meaning of success.
And one of the co -authors and and our goal was really to support the next generation of attorneys.
Or if you're still in law school, if you just graduated from law school and you're looking to discover what is it that I can do with my law degree, then this book is exactly for you.
Fantastic, and everybody, we're going to put links to the book and Elena's LinkedIn profile in the description.
And make sure you follow Elena on LinkedIn.
Her posts are great.
I love it. I'm excited for this one, Elena.
First of all, it's a long coming.
It's hard to get busy people on the same calendar.
That's very true Kwame.
You are certainly so busy.
I just want to say out loud that I was so blown away by your presentation, Laura Frederick's Contracts Con.
You are just such an inspiration from the first second I felt like I've known you forever.
That's the kind of skill you have in getting people to truly listen to you.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
So listeners, the con, that's open to everybody.
You can hang out with me, Elena, Laura Frederick, all of these, there's so many guests that have been on the show that are in Laura's ecosystem.
So that's gonna be coming back up again in I think January of 2024.
So yeah, keep an eye out for that.
So thank you for those kind words, I appreciate it.
I appreciate your genuine, authentic, and confident approach to communication to the topic of this episode.
I gave you the option whether we could go with a typical preparation that we did before, Or, we could go with wherever your energy is driving you.
So, can you tell the listeners how you answered this question?
What is it that's giving you the most energy right now related to communication?
I would love to answer this question, Kwame.
And honestly, what gives me the most energy right now is communicating with people who are genuine, who are authentic, who know who they are, who confident enough to be themselves, and who direct in their communication.
And I think that takes a lot of maturity to arrive at that point in time for somebody to be that way.
Absolutely. And it's funny because as you started to describe the type of people that you like to communicate with, it made me realize how rare that is in today's society, the authenticity being genuine, and then being confident in who you are as a person.
It's rare. We're really drawn to people when we see it, which helps us to recognize just how rare it is.
When it comes to communicating in this way, what do you think are the things that hold people back the most?
When people are starting out, for example, in the legal profession, I think it's really easy to be intimidated by stereotypes, by what you believe a real lawyer should look like.
So I think we all imagine Harvey Specter, somebody in a suit, somebody really smooth, sleek who somehow manages to know all of the rules of evidence and have the best thoughts just on the fly.
And we want to be like that.
We want to be that person.
And I can tell for myself, I can speak for myself, that's who I wanted to be when I was in law school.
When I started practicing law and I tried to be that person, I really did, but I soon realized, it wasn't me, I'm Elena Cohen.
I'm not Harvest Specter.
I will never be Harvest specter, I have an accent, it's just, it's not happening for me.
I have a little bit of a sense of humor and so I like my jokes here and there.
I don't take myself seriously.
So I was faced with a dilemma of whether to try and change myself completely and in that I could lose my personality and I could lose my identity or to just embrace who I am and with whatever it comes with, right?
Pros and cons. And I chose to just go ahead and be me.
I love this story because you're absolutely right.
Your life is a perfect case study for this because you're successful now.
You've come to the country, furthered your education.
You've got the degree, passed the bar.
We always have to talk about that as a lawyer, because that test is a nightmare.
I still get nightmares about that test. And now you're in -house, which is where most people, at least coming out of law school, want to end up being.
This is really great.
And it's inspirational because you're demonstrating that you can be successful by being yourself.
And I love the fact that you started off with intimidation, because even if we don't identify what we're feeling as intimidation, it is intimidation because we get intimidated by this avatar of what a successful leader, a negotiator, communicator might be within a specific industry.
Because for us, we have an idea of what that is as a lawyer.
Other people might have what it is, that perspective as an architect or a doctor, or whatever it happens to be.
But what ends up happening is we have this polished perspective on what we should be as a professional, and then we get up every morning and we see our own flaws and we just are confronted with the reality that who we are is so different from who we think we need to be.
And that can really beat us down.
So what allowed you to have the confidence in yourself to make that transition?
That's such a good question.
And I thought about it.
As you were asking me that question, I actually remember a moment in time, which is I called my physician to make an appointment, and the front desk person who answered the phone call, she heard me, and she said immediately without me even telling her who I was, she said, oh, Elena, how are you?
How's your day going?
I felt like a celebrity.
I paused for a second thinking, how did she know it was me calling?
It was my accent. It was the unique way that I speak, that it made her put two and two together and immediately recognize it was me calling.
It was a moment in time that made me pause like, oh, it was a positive interaction.
And she wanted to talk to me, not to anybody else.
She recognized it was me.
So maybe there is something about my accent, about the way that I am, that I could embrace moving forward. That was a while back now, but that's the moment in time that I wanted to share with you.
I appreciate that because probably in that moment, that day, you might not have appreciated what that would mean to you.
But now we can look back and we can see that from the outside looking in, it might've seemed like a really trivial interaction, but it was really formative for you.
That's true, it really was.
That's incredible. And it's almost like it gave you permission to be you.
That's right. That's exactly true.
That's so cool. I think that's one of the most empowering things that I've come across in my career too, because you will find this very interesting.
When it came to the podcast, when it came to the posts that I would make on LinkedIn and the presentations that I did, so I got some feedback from my friends.
They said, the content is good, but it's It's not you on stage.
It's not you, your presentations and your posts and the podcasts.
It sounds boring. And you're not a boring person." I realized I was trying to act like a lawyer.
It wasn't enough for me to be a lawyer.
I was trying to act like a lawyer, sound like a lawyer and look like a lawyer, and I wasn't being me.
So I had to come to this point where I said, all right, I want to be so authentic with who I am, professionally and personally, that it will naturally attract people who like me and repel people who don't.
and I'm completely okay with that.
And that's what was really the turning point for me in my career.
That's such a good point, and it's perfect because you're super genuine, super authentic.
I feel like I've known you for ages, even though I haven't, right?
So I think it's definitely working for you.
And it's a huge realization on your part as well that some people are not attracted to who you are as a person, that's okay.
It's fine. You don't want to liked by everybody.
That was one of the lessons my mom imparted upon me.
I think when I was six or seven, she told me, be able to dollar bill to be loved by everybody.
I was like, oh, wow.
That is so good. Oh my goodness.
Some of my mom's wisdom in this podcast as well as the nurse.
That is great. And this is a great segue to one of the key tenants to your approach, which is not sweating the small stuff.
Because like you said, not everybody's going to like you.
And that's okay, it's literally impossible for everybody to like you all the time.
And for us to be effective in negotiations and difficult conversations, we have to be able to keep our cool.
And if we're constantly taking things personally, then even if we have the right strategies or skills, we're not going to be able to put it into practice because we're so emotional, because we're taking things personally.
So for you and your experience, when it comes to not sweating the small stuff, what is it that you to a point where you were able to actually put that into practice?
Law is serious. The issues that we negotiate are serious issues.
Sometimes people on the other side of the negotiations could take it personally and it could lead to negative outcomes.
And I think if in my case, I sometimes act a little bit self -deprecating, I have a bit of a sense of humor sprinkled all over the substance.
I think that really shows people of my true side, my kind of human side.
And they stopped perceiving me as this attorney on the other side of the negotiations, this harvest specter type person, but instead, this is Elena, right?
Just another human on the other side of the transaction trying to make this deal happen.
It really helps, I feel like.
And then the other person shows their human side too.
And it's us, to human stalking trying to make the deal happen, the best deal for both of our clients.
This is such a really important point because again, like you said, law is serious.
The business world is serious.
These conversations, we wouldn't call them difficult if we were talking about who gets the last marshmallow.
Actually, that could be serious.
Kwame, that could be really serious business.
That's not a good example, right there.
That is a horrible example.
Marshmallows are very serious.
Who gets the third marshmallow in a full bag?
No, that's true, there we go.
We have to recognize that these are the serious conversations.
But when it comes to just our approach to this, it makes it a lot easier if we can think about it as we are just two people coming together to see if we can make the situation better.
That's it. And something that was subtle in what you said that I don't want the listeners to miss is the fact that when it comes to these tough conversations, sometimes you have to show your humanity first. That requires a little bit of vulnerability because the other person might be coming in doing their lawyer impression, looking all tough and mad and everything like that.
And it really takes strong, confident person to be willing to be self -deprecating, to throw in a little bit of humor, to laugh, to share a little struggle that they might have had.
And you're right. A lot of times when you show the fact that you are leading with your humanity, it gives the other person the license to do the same.
I absolutely agree.
And the opposite could be true as well when somebody's starting off with their credentials or how impressive they are, how long they've been doing this.
And the list could go on and on, honestly, for five minutes.
I've been in situations like that where a person would recite their credentials for five minutes.
And I think that's the way to really lose in negotiations.
I don't think you're making friends that way.
Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.
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From LinkedIn news, I'm Jesse Hempel, host of the Hello Monday podcast. In my twenties, I knew what career success looked like.
In midlife, it's not that simple.
Work is changing, we're changing, and there's no guidebook for how to make sense of it.
So come figure it out with me, on the Hello Monday podcast. I've been a journalist for two decades, writing cover stories for Business Week, Fortune, and Wired.
And now, every Monday, I bring you conversations with people who are thinking deeply about work and where it fits into our lives.
Like Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella on growth mindsets.
The learn -it -all does better than the know -it -all.
Or NYU professor Scott Galloway on choosing a career.
I think the worst advice you can give a kid is follow your passion.
Or MacArthur Genius winner Angela Duckworth on talent versus grit.
Your long -term effort and your long -term commitment are surprisingly important.
Each episode delivers pragmatic advice for right now.
Listen to Hello Monday with me, Jesse Humpel, on the LinkedIn Podcast Network, or wherever you get your podcasts.
No, then it becomes a resume measuring contest and nobody wants to do that.
Again, I want to be a person.
I want you to be a person too.
And if I have to hold on a second, Elena, that was a really great point.
Thank you for telling me about who you are.
Let me go to my LinkedIn profile so I don't forget any accomplishments.
Like this is, it's pretentious.
I think a lot of times really the unfortunate thing is that the people who come in, sometimes The ones who are like the most serious and the most guarded and maybe the most aggressive with showcasing their skills and abilities and accomplishments are the people who are the most insecure.
I think about me being completely transparent here.
Earlier on in my career, I would really often lead with the fact that I was a lawyer.
I had these degrees or whatever, and it was insecurity because I didn't think that they saw me as a respectable, a respected professional.
So I said, no, I need to prove it with my resume.
but it's really funny as I started to talk to friends and colleagues and things like that about that feeling like I was the Underdog and everything people are saying I never saw you that way.
That's just your own head Concocting disempowering narrative so a lot of times the person on the other side They feel like they have to prove themselves early on in the conversation But if you just show hey, I'm a person I see you as a person and that's good enough for me.
Let's chat That is so true I never even tell anybody anymore that I'm a lawyer.
Outside of the professional setting, when you're negotiating something, it never even comes up and people don't even ask me, what is it that you do for a living?
And, you know, to your point about that, maybe it was in your head that they didn't perceive it that way.
In the end of the day, you want to make the other person feel good about themselves.
You want to make them feel like they contributed to the negotiations, that they contributed to the discussion, And then they will think that, surprisingly, you were so great to talk to, even if you really didn't do all that much of the talking, even if they are the ones who really contributed the most to the discussion.
Because, honestly, it's like what my Ángelu said.
All way back. Remember?
Nobody will remember what you said, how you said it.
But they will always remember how you made them feel.
Yes. Okay. This is great.
I have two stories that kind of speak to that.
I remember at the time I didn't take this as a compliment at first, or I wasn't really sure how to take it, but now I realized it was a major compliment.
I was doing a mediation.
After we'd finished up the mediation, the person said, so tell me Kwame, what do you do?
And I said, I'm a lawyer.
They looked a little skeptical.
They're like, wait, you're a lawyer?
You don't seem like a lawyer.
And I was like, excuse me, what does that mean?
I read books, right?
you know, in my mind.
I know Latin right?
Kwame, I can say a couple of words.
exactly. come on. Exactly, I wanted to bust out the Latin immediately.
He's like yeah, you don't seem like a lawyer and I said well, my undergrad degree is in psychology.
He's like, ah that makes sense, I get it now.
And then I think of another conversation I was having with one of my mentors and he said Kwame, I love talking to you because you make me feel like God And notice the terminology, right.
He's like, you make me feel like God, not you make me feel like I'm talking to God.
What would that be?
That's horrible, right?
No, it's like, you, I make him feel good, and it goes back to what you said, make the other person feel good about themselves in the process.
And then when you start to filter everything through that intent, you start to realize how little of what you want to say will accomplish that goal.
So if you start talking about your resume, does that make them feel good about themselves?
No. Right? So it completely reorients your perspective as you navigate the conversation because you're focused on them and not yourself.
Which is a real skill that not many people have. Again, it requires a lot of maturity, a lot of shifting focus from yourself to the other person that you're talking to and being an attentive listener and conversationalist. Bingo.
And this is a process.
It's not like you're going to wake up a stuffy lawyer this morning and then wake up tomorrow.
It's like, Hey everybody, I'm a cool kid now.
It takes some time.
So just think about something that you can do.
That's really simple.
It's just like, is look back on the conversation and then ask yourself, what did I do?
Well, and then try to do more of that.
What did I do poorly?
Try and do less of that.
And then just focus on something that it isn't tangible, but it's like the flow, how did I feel as I was having the conversation?
How do you think they felt throughout the process?
those types of things.
And it's just thinking a little bit more critically about how you're showing up.
And then you can start to recognize, oh, this is when I am being myself and I feel confident in who I am and then this is when I'm not.
You can start to figure out little patterns.
I know for me, Elena, one of my tells is the bigger the words become, the less secure I am in myself.
Really? I would have never noticed that.
But I do recall that you dropped a couple of really big $25 words at Contracts Con during your first presentation on the first day.
Ha! That's very interesting!
You know what's funny, though?
I think it's almost easier for me to present to non -lawyers than it is to lawyers.
And I think a big part of it is that I know how lawyers think, and it's like, I feel a greater pressure sometimes to prove like, hey, I'm a lawyer, and I'll say some big where it's like upfront.
I noticed that tendency with lawyers more so than other people.
And then I'll relax into myself a little bit later on, but you're right with my presentations to lawyers.
It's almost like I feel a little bit of need.
So I'm one of you, and then move on.
It's interesting. That's a good catch. I completely agree though.
I completely agree.
And I feel the same way.
Isn't that interesting?
Yeah. Again, it's about analyzing those patterns in yourself because if you don't explicitly explore it, you're not going to recognize it.
That's very true too.
Yeah. that. This is great.
Elaina, this was well worth the wait, my friend.
I appreciate this. And the points that you brought up on this podcast and this episode, incredibly helpful because, again, a lot of times it's really hard for people to just be okay with being themselves.
And now we can see that we can still be exceptionally successful like you in the legal field and when you're talking about really tough and sensitive topics and still be who you are.
So I just really appreciate you advocating for authenticity in this way on this podcast. Always a pleasure.
And I was just thinking if I may add one more point is it takes a lot of maturity, a lot of self -confidence to be yourself.
Not everybody has it.
And especially before you go on stage to present to people, I feel so insecure right before then.
And I always remember the TED talk from 2012.
I think it was Amy Cuddy who just remembered she showed the pose.
That could really help people, right?
Just standing in the successful pose for two minutes right before the presentation, right before you go in, just to feel like yourself, to be happy, to be excited.
Absolutely. That is underappreciated.
The power poses... It gets you in a different mentality.
And the other one little thing I like to do, I like to listen to music with a lot of bass far louder than is medically recommended.
Yeah, I'm not so sure about that, Kwame.
I wouldn't endorse it, but I would endorse wearing a tiara.
Oh, you brought the tiara!
I did. I have a tiara and I sent Laura a tiara as well.
This is a good advertisement for the YouTube page.
So everybody who's listening on the podcast, now you have to follow us on YouTube.
You can see the tiara that looks so good.
It's about to fall off, but I am wearing it right now.
There you go. There you go.
Elena, this was a blast. I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom with us today.
Thank you so much for having me, Kwame.
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The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations.
Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better.
Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations.
Again, thank you for joining the team.
We are excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode.
I'll catch you later.
