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Thanks for coming back, my friend.
Thank you for having me Kwame.
Yeah, it is our pleasure.
So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Well, yes. The good news is I don't have a job, Kwame, I've I got a mission.
And that's what I'm always telling people.
And my mission is really to try and help everybody understand how important negotiation is for all of us.
I find in general that too many professionals are not acknowledging the importance of negotiation.
And I realized that all the way back in the 90s.
So, as I said, I don't have a job, because I really love what I'm doing.
So, my mission is really to help and change the mindset of how we think about collaborating and negotiating.
Incredible. And we are brothers in that sense, because we believe the same thing.
It's incredible work that you do.
And listening to my friend, Kel.
This is very modest. He is uh, global gurus top 30 and negotiation guru leader in the, in the field, 25 books, but now we have a 26 that we're going to talk about and then an award winning negotiation program as well.
So listen, don't sell yourself short.
I'll hype you up code.
So let's talk about this new book.
First of all, I think it would be cool to get into just your mindset behind releasing a 26th book after you've already contributed so much literature to the field.
Yeah. Well, a lot of people ask me anything else you want to share and where is it coming from?
And to be honest, I actually thought I was done two books ago because I was kind of fed up with just writing about tools and stuff about negotiation.
And there are so many good books out there already.
And I'm often asked a question by journalists, by the way, Kwame, why should people buy your book?
And I'm often asking in a very surprising way because I'm often saying, well, they shouldn't.
What I mean by that is they shouldn't only buy my books.
They should buy books from other authors as well.
And I think some people make the mistake of just buy one book reading that and then they think to know everything about negotiation.
And that is not the case.
They have to buy your book, my book, somebody else's book, probably read eight or 10 different books because we can't comprehend, we can't put everything about negotiation in one book or even 10 books because there's so many directions into negotiation.
So it's so, so important that if you want to seriously study negotiation that you hopefully you want to read one of my books, but also a bunch of other great authors out there, pick their books and read them as well.
So back to a question for me, why did I do another one?
Well, first and foremost, I'm trying to be a little holistic about negotiation.
So not just delivering a toolbox because there's so many books delivering tools to a toolbox about how you should negotiate.
So my previous book, the one that came out last year, Negotiation Essential, is talking more about the mindset, how to change the mindset, what negotiation is and isn't based on my philosophy, and that may not be the same as everybody else's.
The new book, 103 Elements, is actually based on research since I started my in the 90s when we have looked at 35 ,000 negotiators and basically isolated what makes some of them more successful compared to others.
So back to what I just said to contradict myself a little bit, that actually is really a tool book because it is 103 elements and we actually use the elements idea to cover it.
So we basically go through 103 important thoughts, tools, processes, philosophies on how you should improve your negotiation.
You may ask me Kwame, why 103, why not 105 or 102?
And I could say, well, that was all I could come up with.
You could probably find an additional eight, who knows?
So that was just where we ended.
So that was the reason it was 103.
Beautiful. I love this.
And I think the fact that it's 103 makes it more memorable and it shows legitimacy too.
Because whenever somebody comes out to something with where it's like a, like a perfect number of mine, what sacrifices or embellishments did you make?
I appreciate the specificity and I love the holistic nature of your thought leadership too, because you're right.
I mean, you can't just capture somebody's the entirety of their thoughts in just one book.
And it's important to have that ability to understand different methodologies, because maybe if even if you don't find yourself using one of the methodologies, it's important form a defensive perspective to understand what somebody might do to you in a negotiation.
And when you think about all of these different elements that you came up with, if you were to pick one that is the most practical or the one that is the most frequently utilized, which one would come to mind?
Ooh, that's a great question.
I think one of the key things that I'm pretty sure would agree with me, what I find again and again and again with professional negotiating is they forget to ask questions and argue instead.
I know it sounds really basic and very simple, but it seems to be a thing repeating itself over and over again, we forget to ask questions.
So for instance, if you supply it to me, Guo, I mean, and you come and say, do you know what?
I can deliver in eight weeks.
Then I will start arguing saying, but I need it in five.
And perhaps that's the case, but instead I should ask the question to you, is it possible to do it in five?
And what would the consequence be of you delivering in five instead of eight weeks?
We often forget to show an interest, show empathy, ask questions to the counterpart, and then obviously listening.
We have a great colleague at Harvard, Dr. Dan Sapeiro, that I admire a lot.
And together with you and a lot of other respected leaders in this area.
And Dr. Shapiro came out recently and talked about that we got an issue as human beings, not only in negotiation, but as human beings, that we are tribal, right?
And we have a tendency to stay in a tribe and really only listening to somebody who agrees with us.
So if you and I are negotiating, Kwame, and we are not in agreement, I stopped listening to you because I'm basically just focused on what I'm saying.
So I'm not listening to what you're saying, I'm basically just sitting there waiting for me to start arguing after you're done talking.
And, you know, I see that O &O again in negotiation.
We don't really listen and I'm often saying that we should replace the sound of the word with the sound of a cash register when a negotiator raised a topic.
Because if I say I have an interest in changing delivery time, okay, that means you have a financial interest in doing that, otherwise you don't you wouldn't raise that topic in a commercial negotiation.
So what you have to do as a negotiator is then ask the question, so what's your value if we could change that delivery time?
So anyway, it was a long answer to a question Kwame, but what I'm really focused on and you just asked that question, it's a good one and hard to just answered that one simple.
But I would say the ability to listen and ask question is essential, and really, in my world, separates the great negotiator from the bad negotiator.
This is so incredible, and incredibly validating to Kelb.
So, I was chatting with Charles Duhigg yesterday.
He was on the podcast, and he has a new book coming out, and he showed some really interesting research. He said, the great communicators ask 10 to 20 times more questions than the novice communicators and it speaks directly to what you said.
The thing I told him is that I was getting uncomfortable with the podcast episodes, talking about curiosity and asking questions because it came up so often.
But the reality is, the reason why it came up so often is because number one it is so fundamental and number two, even though it is so fundamental people still don't do it.
We still need reminders and so I think it'll be great to get into what is it that gets in the way of being curious in the middle of these conversations.
We talked about tribalism.
What are some other things that get in the way?
Well, as you might know, one of my cornerstones in negotiation is trust. And I just finished a doctorate on negotiation and trust, where I spent only three years just studying trust and try and make trust a tangible asset, something that is, we can monetize.
And thank God I succeeded, because otherwise I would have wasted three years.
So what I managed to prove is that high level of trust will decrease transactional cost and improved profit.
So what I'm basically saying is that if we manage to create a high level of trust, everybody negotiating or everybody involved in that negotiation will be financially more profitable.
And I think back to your question, why is it that we don't ask the question?
I think a lot of the time it's really because we are trying to defend ourselves.
We are trying to hide information.
We don't understand that transparency and trust is important.
So by asking questions, some people People feel that they're being a little bit too open.
They might show some engagement or interest in the counterpart.
And by showing an interest, some people perceive themselves as being the weak party.
So it's really down to, again, what I said earlier about the mindset on how to negotiate.
And what I'm telling all my students and clients Kwame, I know this may sound weird, but we have to negotiate on how to negotiate before we start negotiating.
And I want everybody to do that.
Everybody listening right now.
I know some people are sitting out there thinking, this guy is crazy.
you have to look at it this way, we all perceive negotiation differently.
You may see negotiation like playing chess, I may perceive negotiation like playing tennis.
So I'm walking into the conference room with a racket and sitting there and waving my racket in the air.
And you're sitting on the other side of the table moving the pieces on the chess board around, right?
This sounds ridiculous.
But that's the way a lot of people negotiate.
And then they waste the first three hours figuring out are we going to play tennis or chess?
So what we have to negotiate even before we start negotiating is how are we going to negotiate today?
Are we going to be open, transparent, collaborative, but we're going into a positional game where it's a zero sum and we're not exchanging values and costs.
And this is so essential and I see it work in reality and people save so much time addressing that.
And on top of that, and I'm saying something else that could provoke people, we also have to verbalise trust. I always say we should trust on the agenda.
And what I mean by that is we should agree Kwame, what happens if you and I are negotiating and trust is declining?
Are we allowed to raise that topic saying, Kwame, if you feel you have less trusted me an hour from now, please tell me and please tell me why you allowed to do that.
And hopefully I'm allowed to do the same.
Because we have to remember one thing.
It's never organizations negotiating with each other.
It's Kwame and Kelle negotiating, all businesses, people, right?
So the relationship, the trust, the mindset, how the personal chemistry is working out is fundamental for us to succeed really in negotiation.
I'm sorry. That was a very long answer to your question.
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Don't stop, keep going.
I'm loving this answer.
It's incredible, because you're 100 % right, and the fact that you actually spend a lot of time studying trust is very important, because trust is a word that we throw around very frequently, but one of my favorite things to do is ask people in a training, what is trust, and it's fascinating to see them struggle with it.
And if we can get a better understanding of it, then we can quantify it.
We can do something about it.
But if we just feel it but don't fully understand it, then we're just kind of leaving trust up to chance.
And I love the idea of putting this on the agenda because something that is just as important as any of the other tangible things that we're negotiating, but there seems to be sometimes discomfort and reluctance with being vulnerable in that sense, and we would rather avoid it.
And when you think about this approach, like actually quantifying trust, putting it on the agenda, having a conversation about trust and having a conversation about negotiating how we negotiate, a lot of people, they might think this is strange.
They might be taken aback or caught off guard or think that this is a, like a ploy of some sort.
So as we're putting this into practice, is.
What are some things we can do to help the other party feel more comfortable utilizing these techniques?
Yeah, that's a great question.
Again, I often recommend, especially if it's it's an important negotiation that we basically have a pre -meeting before the actual negotiation where the purpose is basically to brainstorm, sitting down development variables.
So variable, for those who don't know, it is something that is negotiable.
So that could be delivery time, pricing, warehouse, installation services, what have you.
We sit down and expand the number of variables.
And The reason we should do that by the way, that's another fact for me is that most commercial negotiations are negotiating on too few variables.
I had an example with a client recently within the energy sector.
They were doing projects in size that could be three, four, five, a hundred million dollars.
And they were negotiating on nine commercial variables.
It could be installation, price, service, education, what have you.
We did a brainstorming session with them where we just facilitated.
So they did the work themselves, but within one day they had created 76 variables and And they implemented 12 of those and improved their profit by 4 % just by expanding the number of variables.
So one question I would raise to all your listeners, Kwame, is really take a look at how many variables you're actually negotiating on.
I was born six, seven months ago.
So I was sitting at home thinking, how many variables do you actually have when we buy a car?
And I was just sitting there trying to list them.
And I probably haven't exhausted that list at all.
But we have price. We have delivery time.
We have accessories.
We have service agreement.
we have the trading value of the old car.
Anyway, just to cut it down, I ended up with 64 variables, and I'm pretty sure I'm not done.
Could you imagine, probably next time you go out there to buy a car, you go into this car sales rep, and you pull out the list and say, we have a few items we need to talk about.
You will probably get a heart attack.
So anyway, the point of what I'm saying here is that I recommend we actually have a pre -meeting where we're not negotiating.
We're basically sitting down as a team.
The counterpart in us, and the purpose is just figuring out how can we make this a mutual success.
Another thing I'm pointing out in my new book, something I'm actually doing in real life advising clients as well, is if you believe in collaborative negotiation, in a serious some negotiation is somewhat different.
But if you believe in a collaborative negotiation, you should open up your negotiation by saying the following.
I'm here to help you reduce your costs, your risk and your liability, and I'm here to help you improve your profit.
Would you be interested in me helping you doing that?
Now I can promise you when you try that in real life, your counterpart will look suspicious, but they will say yes, because obviously everybody wants that.
When you have got that approval, then you move on by saying, OK, and with due respect, I see your assignment here today as helping me reduce my cost liabilities and risk and help me improve my profit.
Would you help me do that?
Because that is the assignment.
Our assignment, working together in a collaborative environment, is reducing the negative and improving the profit.
And that's really my take on negotiation, Kwame.
I see it as an exercise in creating and distributing value.
It's not a zero sum game where I should win a hundred dollars at your expense or you should win $100 at my expense.
It's a collaborative effort where we create value.
And again, you know, I'm in commercial negotiation.
So the way I perceive negotiation, as I just said, it's every single time two organizations negotiate with each other.
There's only one reason they're doing it to create and distribute value.
I say this all the time and I want to say to you too, the sign of a brilliant insight is that it seems obvious in hindsight.
And this seems obvious now.
But what's interesting to me is that I've never in over 1200 episodes of the podcast, heard anybody articulate this.
And if you were to ask any of these negotiation experts, do you believe these things?
They would say yes.
But when it comes to intent, a lot of times we hold that intent close to our chest and we don't share our positive intent with the other side.
And going back to what you said about tribalism, if we are seeing them as the other side, then there's no reason for us to assume positive intent.
That would take actual, like intentional, emotional and cognitive effort for us to overcome that bias.
But the best way to overcome that bias is by stating this explicitly and inviting them to do the same.
And will it always work?
Absolutely not. Some people won't do it, don't see the benefit, don't have your interest, and it won't always work.
But imagine if it just worked in 40 or 50 % of the cases, you're going to be so much more profitable in your negotiation.
So it's not about everything should be turned into collaborative negotiation because it won't and it shouldn't, but in those cases where it makes sense, it should.
I'm working with the matrix for me that's in the new book as well.
It's a very simple matrix where we basically have four quadrants, and the horizontal line shows how important are we to the counterpart, and the vertical line shows how important is the counterpart to us.
So if both parties are very important to each other, right, we end up in the top right corner.
And in the top right corner, everything should be collaboration, transparent, honest collaboration, not doing it if both parties are equally important to each other.
and I'm sorry to be very direct, is unintelligent.
It really is. On the other hand, if you are in a commodity market, so you are on the left side on the horizontal line, at the bottom on the vertical line, you're in a quadrant where you have no risk and lots of suppliers and lots and lots of clients.
Should you be in collaborative negotiation down there?
No, not always. Perhaps it's a waste of time trying to be collaborative.
Perhaps you just go out there and do an auction or whatever you feel like because you're just buying something very simple, something stupid, but you have to be conscious about when you choose positional negotiation or collaborative negotiation.
And what I find quite often, unfortunately, is that negotiators just stumble into the conference room and accidentally end up in collaborative or zero -sum or orientated negotiation.
They don't even know why they pick one of the other strategies just happened because they counterpart this way or the other way, right?
But you have to be very conscious about that.
And I think that's a mistake a lot of negotiators and organizations, by the way, are doing as well.
I just want to add more thing.
When I step into a new organization, or work with students, the first thing I always ask them is, could I please see your official negotiation strategy in your company?
And then everybody's quiet for about a long time, because, and some of them may say something, but it's not a strategy.
And what I'm just saying is, the majority of organizations, and governments around the world, don't have an official negotiation strategy.
They have a research and development strategy, they have a communication strategy, they have a go to market strategy, they have all the other strategies that business school teaches that we should have. But a negotiation strategy, nada, nothing.
Sip, absolutely nothing.
And one of the studies that we found is that not having a negotiation strategy is a disaster.
It's the same thing as not having a communication strategy in the budget for the next 12 years or whatever other strategy we should have. So my appeal and advice to everybody is you have to sit down as an organization and develop your negotiation strategy.
How do we want to negotiate?
And we have to remember that negotiation is, I'm not just saying that because I'm living and breathing negotiation.
But when we think about it on the value chain, when to organization exchange, make or lose money, it is happening at the negotiation table.
That is where it's happening.
So there's a lot of stuff happening behind that.
But the actual creation of value and exchanging of value is happening right there.
So it is so fundamental.
And what I'm seeing now, thank god, is that there's a strong movement among a lot of organizations, especially in North America, to create a center of excellence on negotiation.
I see that happening every week now.
They are actually creating unique expertise in a team of people that have no other purpose than just negotiating and supporting the organization in their negotiations.
And that is growing.
And you might have seen there was a McKinsey and Company study that came out last year where they interviewed Fortune 500 CEOs, and 93 % of the CEOs at Fortune 500 felt that negotiation was so important.
So within the next three years, they would appoint a chief negotiation officer in the organization.
And out of the 93%, 96 % of them said that they felt that negotiation was so crucial and essential.
So if they have qualified negotiators, they could increase their profit by at least their earnings by at least 5%.
Now, let's assume those numbers are right.
We are talking billions and billions of dollars that are being left on the table because of incompetent negotiators.
This is incredible.
And again, the thing that I love about this is that it is well -researched.
This is not just an opinion, this is legit.
And it really calls into question a little bit of not just the strategy, but the mentality behind it, because a lot of times negotiation, even though it is vitally important, for some reason it is not top of mind for leadership in companies.
And I think one of the things I want to ask you about the going back to the book with the elements is when you did your research, we have these 103 elements.
We talked about curiosity being the one that came up the most frequently and probably the most practical.
But which one was the most surprising to you that you didn't expect to see?
Yeah, that's a very good one.
I think one of the surprising ones is how irrational we are as human beings, you know.
That that is just constantly surprising me because we love to be rational, all of us.
I like to tease people, Guami, I have a sense of humor, I hope.
And often when I talk to a C -suite or vice president or what have you, high level individual, I love to tease them by saying, how could you make so many irrational decisions?
And you know, they can offend it, because it seems that in our world, being irrational is a bad thing.
But, but listen, what if it's a fact that we basically are irrational?
The late Dr. Kahneman, Daniel Kahneman is one of my heroes, he passed away just, what was that a few months ago, and he is the father of behavioural economics and behavioural economics for those who don't know about it, is the merger between traditional economics and psychology, which is very important for the world of negotiation.
Dr. Kahneman won the Nobel Prize, by the way, and I'm simplifying, but he basically won the Nobel Prize because he proved that we are irrational.
We decide with emotions, and prove our decision with facts later on.
So we find the fact that proved our emotional decision was correct.
And what Dr. Kahneman also claimed, and I believe 100%, is that he's saying we will We always prefer to do business with somebody we like and trust that has the worst product at the highest price than we do business with somebody we don't like and don't trust that has the most competitive product at the lowest price.
So back to what I said, we have to acknowledge that we are irrational.
But still, through our research, I am still amazed on how irrational we are, and probably even more amazed that we won't admit it.
I mean, if it's a fact we are irrational, why just not admitting it?
We are emotional creatures, we are human beings, we make decisions on emotions.
I was sitting in Europe a few months ago with a governmental client, and, you know, they have to follow tender regulation from European Union, so you can't really negotiate so much. You can have meetings with your suppliers, and then based on an equal measurement, you can decide who you want to purchase from.
So we had four different suppliers.
And the most expensive one when we had finished, they all had two two -hours meeting, and it was $100 million budget, but they only allowed two -hour meeting, which I thought, hey, that's amazing.
We have decide or based on two hours meeting and a written proposal of who we should buy.
But anyway, that was the case.
So after the meetings with all four suppliers over two days, the most expensive one was the one, and hang on.
This is interesting.
Was the one they liked the most. So the committee, the committee from my client start discussing while I was sitting in the room, we like this one the most. This is the one we want to buy from.
However, he is the most expensive right now.
So we have to find an alibi how we can buy from him regardless.
So they base the decision on a $100 million project only on whether they liked the supplier or not, which became way more important than the price and the content and the technology and everything else.
And you know what? This is happening all the time.
We just don't admit it, because we always want it to be very rational and very practical, and look at the numbers, and these ones can do this, and what have you.
But deep down, it's all a question about, do we trust the individual?
Do we like them? And And if we like them, and they're more expensive, we will try to find an excuse to prove that they were more competitive.
And then we find back to what Dr. Kahneman said, then we find the fact to prove that our emotional decision was absolutely right.
And again, sorry, long answer, but you were just asking what was the most surprising.
That keeps surprising me all the time.
Yeah, I agree, 100%.
Every day we are confronted with that reality in one way or another, like how is this possible?
And then we just have to accept, this is just a fundamental part of human nature.
This is what humans tend to do.
Tell me what you think about this, because I think there are two ways of thinking about it and I think a lot of folks who are listening are saying, well, folks are irrational.
So what I need to do is break through that irrationality and figure out how to persuade them.
And that is one method.
And I think that method might be the path of most resistance.
I think what we can learn is that we are irrational.
We are emotional and we are biased creatures.
And so what we should do is ethically emphasis heavily on ethically try to get those positive emotions, positive biases, and trust moving in our favor in a way that is beneficial to both parties.
And then we don't need to break through rationality or irrationality because they already favor us.
I agree. Yeah, absolutely.
Spot on. Yeah. Oh, this is great.
Before you go, I want to give, and this is personally, I'm curious on this one because your methodology is very unique.
We talked about that and I want to know how much your international background has contributed to your unique approach, because you know, I'm a child of immigrants, but I haven't done any business in my parents' country, right?
You have lived, worked, played, and taught all around the world.
And so how much have an impact on your perspective on negotiation?
Oh, I think a lot. I think as a you are child of your background, right?
You're learning from your background.
You are educated by your culture.
And I was fortunate to be born and raised in a country that is considered one of the happiest in the world and with the highest level of trust. There was actually just an article coming out a few days ago about the secret of Denmark being trusts and the competitive edge of the wealth in Denmark is trust because it's a very trusting society.
I think I brought a lot of that to the world.
Now Danes are so trusting, and Scandinavians sometimes so trusting so they become always naive, so, you know, they have to find the middle road as well, but it is lovely to see how trust really works.
I mean, just to give you an example, in Denmark, one company could call another company for me and say, Hey, I love your service or your product.
Could you send me for $200 ,000 and just, you know, just add an invoice.
And the other company would go, okay.
And they don't have a relationship.
They don't know each other, but you automatically assume that of course you'll pay an invoice because that's what you're supposed to do.
And you have faith in the legal system.
So if the buyer for some reason is not paying, you have faith and trust legal system that will efficiently handle that for you so there's not an issue.
So back to what I said with Dr. Kahneman's example, right?
When trust is high, transactional cost is low.
And transactional cost in this case is that you don't have to spend thousands of hours on lawyers, I don't want to offend you, but you don't have to spend thousands of hours on lawyers.
You don't have to do a lot of contracts, you don't have to put up bank guarantees, you don't have to do a lot of stuff that I see in less trusting countries, where it's so complicated doing business with other, because you basically don't trust that the counterpart will fulfill their agreement, right?
So you have to put all these measures to secure that you get paid and what have you.
So life in Scandinavia is so easy that way around because trust is there.
Now I'm married to an American, and we got married here in the US, Juan.
And what was interesting was, my wife, she's lovely, but marriage to her, it was like, you know, bah, bah, have to be big.
And I just think, Oh God, is so expensive, but you know, one of the things she wanted, she wants a coordinator.
She wanted a wedding coordinator.
And I didn't know why, but she wanted a coordinator.
So obviously we got a coordinator.
That's the way it works in our negotiation at home.
And we interviewed several coordinators and this one coordinator that my wife wanted, so I've had to end up doing that negotiation with her.
She came with a contract.
And all she had to do was work four or five hours and coordinate stuff.
She came with a contract for 12 pages.
And as a day, now I was saying, they're going, Oh God, why would you read like a contract, you know, you, all you have, you just coordinate what.
And she said, yes, I need a contract.
Okay. So I was sitting down and I read the contract and there was a few items that I couldn't agree with.
I just felt they were not appropriate.
So I pointed it out and sent it back to her.
And then she said, Oh, Oh, okay.
Now I have to go to my attorney and get his advice.
And the contract value call me of that contract was less than a thousand dollars.
And I was just sitting there going, Oh my God, this is such a waste of time for you and for me.
And in the very end, we didn't hire at all because it just was way too complicated.
So we did not. We hired another coordinator that had no contract, did the job perfectly, and everything was fine.
So to me, again, that's just an example of that transaction cost that is so high.
Why do we have to make it so complicated?
Again, long answer, I apologize.
But I think that some of the things that I'm taking with me, and obviously that has an impact in my life, that I think that...
Sorry, let me just give you a quick other example.
I started my career in Xerox back in what feels like 1800.
And I was in the sales department selling huge production printers that they were selling to insurance companies, banks and governments, and what have you.
And I'm not exaggerating my story back then this was in the 80s.
A contract that was very young, very unexperienced, but a contract back then was four pages.
That was it. That was a contract and we would sell one of these printers that had a value of $200 ,000 and everybody was happy.
I visited Xerox two years ago in 2022.
They're still selling the same equipment, almost at the same price, obviously, from a technology point of view, they're more advanced today and I asked them, could I please see your contract today?
Kwame, are you ready?
They brought in the contract, it was 7 binders, and I didn't know what to say, I almost started crying.
So the contract had expanding from four pages to seven binders during that period.
And I'm just thinking, what are we doing to ourselves?
I mean, are we waking up every morning thinking, how can I complicate life to Kwame?
I mean, is that really the purpose, or should we try and simplify life?
So that's why I believe in trust, transparency, collaboration, because it just makes life so much easier.
Amazing. Amazing. Keld, I really appreciate you.
I love chatting with you.
I'm glad I got to see you in person for you know, all of 90 seconds.
Yeah, you ran in or ran out.
I was late for the keynote.
We got it there on time.
The presentation didn't work.
You remember that? Yes, I know.
You know what Kwame?
I never praised you.
I could see we have a pro speak up there because you handled it perfectly.
Technology was as usual, not working for Kwame just for everybody listening, but Kwame, he just did it perfectly.
I mean, you were doing a great job.
I was sitting down then as a colleague applauding you thinking you were doing great.
Thank you, man. That means a lot, because I was sitting in front of 300 lawyers on a presentation, like a keynote with no slides, no notes or anything.
I'd have to like tap dance for 15 minutes.
That was tough, man.
So that means a lot.
I appreciate you. And again, I appreciate you for coming on.
And before you go, just let the listeners know again about this newest book and how they can work with you too?
Oh yeah, sure. Elements of negotiation you can pre -order it on everywhere you buy your books right now Barnes & Noble, Amazon, where have you?
It's published by Wally.
Official launch date is August 27th.
If you want the first edition I would recommend you do it right now because the first edition is not that big.
Besides, if you have an interest in what I'm doing, Google me look on YouTube, LinkedIn.
Happy to connect with everybody.
So yeah, lots of options.
Amazing. Keld, thank you so much for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you for having me!
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Welcome to the breakdown.
Awesome conversation with Keld.
I love chatting with Keld and he brings such a unique approach to negotiation and especially Especially for me living in America, practicing law in America, having my business here in America.
And especially the legal part, it's so fascinating to see just how far trust can get us in these really high -stakes commercial negotiations.
Because I was taught this focused on the contracts.
It's like, Hey, if you don't have a contract, this is horrible, it's bad business.
You need the contract that covers all of these things.
One bad thing happened 25 years ago and now every single contract has that same thing.
It hasn't happened since, but we want to make sure.
So now these contracts get longer and longer and longer.
That was the business climate that I've been raised in here in the United States.
But it's very interesting to see that that is not the norm.
That's a cultural nuance of the US and a lot of Western cultures, but it's fascinating to see that other cultures can do so well, but not lean so heavily on the law.
Brilliant. And one of the things I love about his work is that it's so well researched, being in the industry for so long and also having those connections with universities and other larger institutions.
It allows him to do some high level research. And so everything that he brings to the table is not just his own experience and his own opinions, but it's also validated by the research as well.
So I strongly suggest checking out his work and his books for sure.
I love that we talked about tribalism.
I think tribalism is something, is an element of interactions, human interactions in general, but difficult conversations in particular that we should be factoring in almost every time in different ways, right, because we all belong in different tribes in different ways.
And sometimes they are obvious and sometimes they're not that obvious.
So let's look at the other side.
Let's think about it as a commercial negotiation with a big company.
And we can say tribally speaking, we are the in -group, they are the out -group and vice versa from their perspective.
So this is our team, this is their team.
But even within their teams, there are individual tribes.
The legal department has its tribe, the procurement team might have this tribe, the sales team, the marketing team, all of these things.
And so we all belong to not not just one, but multiple tribes.
And so if we're having a breakdown in conversation, we need to sometimes just run through this checklist and say, do they see me as somebody who is an outsider, somebody who is not in their tribe or another way to say it, as part of their team.
And if we are seen as the enemy, then no matter what it is that we say or do, there's going to be a level of skepticism.
There's going to be a trust deficit simply because of that fact.
And so one of the things we'd have to do is try to convince them that we are ultimately working for the same goal.
I think we had Ryan Serhant on the podcast a while back and I liked his mentality.
He said, he's the guy who was on Bravo's million dollar listing and he thinks about it in terms of advocating for the deal.
He's like, I'm not advocating for myself or necessarily my client, I'm advocating for the deal.
So it helps to remove his ego.
And if we could say, hey, both of us, we are on the same team.
We are in the same tribe negotiating and advocating for the sake of this.
You
