Vision is the new microbiome.
We're going to look back on this in a few years and realize vision is responsible or at least influences so many aspects of longevity consciousness happiness productivity, critical decision making, even interpersonal connection.
And none of us even had a file on it.
Hey guys, how you doing?
Hope you're having a good week so far.
My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better, Live More.
Did you know that your eyesight is something that can be improved?
Did you realise that it is not inevitable that you'll need reading glasses as you get older, even though it seems to be the modern day norm?
And did you know that vision and eyesight are not the same thing?
When we think about improving our health, we often think about changing our diet, increasing how much we move, improving the quality of our sleep and lowering stress.
But how many of us think about working on our vision?
You see, every day many of us experience symptoms like brain fog fatigue, headaches or poor concentration and never realize that our eyes might be playing a central role.
This week, my guest is Dr Bryce Applebaum, a pioneering neuro-optometrist who believes that vision is our most overlooked and underutilized tool for improving how we feel, think and function.
Bryce is a board-certified fellow of the College of Optometrists in Vision Development and founder of My Vision First, where he and his team combine vision therapy with principles from occupational therapy, physical therapy and holistic wellness.
Bryce is also the creator of ScreenFit, a revolutionary online vision training program designed to improve vision and help combat screen fatigue and digital eye strain in just 10 minutes a day.
And if, after hearing our conversation, you want to give ScreenFit a try, Bryce has very kindly agreed to give my listeners a huge discount.
If you go to screenfitcom forward, slash live more, you will get an incredible 200 off this wonderful online program.
It is a fantastic program.
So if you want to take advantage after listening, just head to screenfitcom forward slash live more.
Now.
I have followed Bryce online for some time and was so fascinated by his teachings that in June I flew out to America and participated in his five-day intensive training.
As you will hear shortly, after just five days of working on my eyesight and vision, I experienced some incredible results.
In our conversation, we discuss why eyesight and vision are not the same thing and what most eye tests are missing.
Why 20-20 vision may not be what we should all be aiming for.
How visual processing affects everything from focus and mood to movement, memory and resilience.
The hidden visual problems that are often left undiagnosed in both children and adults.
The impacts of concussion and trauma on the visual system and how it can be rehabilitated.
Why our screen habits are damaging not just our eyes but our brains as well, and the simple daily exercises that we can all do to reduce digital eye strain and support our overall health.
This is a fantastic conversation with a wonderful man that is jam-packed full of information that I am pretty sure for many of you will be brand new.
Many of us simply do not realize how much our vision influences how we think, feel, and perform.
And in a screen-heavy world.
Bryce's insights show us that with the right tools, we can retrain our eyes and brain at any age to improve the quality of our lives.
I wanted to start off by asking you about vision.
In terms of symptoms that might indicate we've got a functional vision problem.
What would you say they are?
So absolutely, it starts with reading and screens because so much of our life is stuck up close.
And so somebody who avoids reading or is losing their place or skipping words or skipping lines or not remembering what they're reading, or their attention seems like it drains so quickly with reading.
Those are clear signs of something happening with the eyes not working as well together as a team as they could or should is in play.
But then eye strain and headaches and tired eyes and dry eyes.
Those are all absolutely issues with vision where the stress of what they're asking of them they're no longer able to meet the demands of.
What about things like brain fog or just general fatigue in life or even things like burnouts?
Do you think vision problems can play a role in those things as well?
I think vision is a direct reflection of brain function.
And so if there's fatigue cognitively, if there's brain fog, if we're tired or we're losing productivity throughout the workday or throughout just the day, in general, very often vision is playing a role in what's taxing the system.
And when you think about functional vision problems as being brain problems that are manifesting through the eyes, Our vision can only withstand what our brain is asking it to do.
Yeah.
I believe Bryce, that when most people think about vision, they're actually thinking about their eyesight.
Okay, so I'm someone who has worn contact lenses and or glasses for many years.
So when I think of vision, I think about the power of my lenses.
You know, is it getting stronger?
How much can I see without needing to put something on my eyes or in my eyes?
Yep.
Okay.
But I think it's really important that we get that differentiation clear right at the top.
Okay, vision and eyesight, they're not the same things.
Perhaps you could explain to us why they're not and why we need to know that.
So appreciate you bringing this up.
So eyesight is a symptom.
Eyesight is how well we can see at a certain distance.
And pretty much every eye doctor is heavy set on this pursuit of seeing 20-20 20-40, 20-whatever.
To allow somebody to see crystal clear at the far end of a dark exam room on this tiny letter chart.
But there is so much more to vision than just eyesight.
Vision is how our eyes move together converge track focus, process information, how we derive meaning from the world around us and then direct the appropriate action.
So eyesight is a symptom.
Eyesight is glasses or contacts.
Vision is brain and vision problems are brain problems, and there are so many solutions and fixes out there for vision problems that extend way beyond just getting new glasses or new contacts.
You said eyesight is a symptom.
Are you saying then these two things are different, they're related but different.
You have vision, which is brain, and eyesight, which is how well we can see and read certain things.
Are you saying that If we focus on vision and improving the various aspects of our visual system, which I've been doing all week with you?
We're going to talk about that shortly.
That as a byproduct, your eyesight may and can get better.
Absolutely.
Eyesight is a reflection of vision.
So somebody who notices far away keeps getting blurrier, or their eyesight fluctuates throughout the day.
Sometimes it's clear, sometimes it's blurry.
The more tired they are, the more reading they're doing, the more fatigued they are, the more their vision changes.
That is the symptom of some underlying vision problem.
And so often in today's world that stems from the focusing system, the inside muscles of the eyes, not being able to withstand stamina or not having flexibility or not working together like they're supposed to, or the outside muscles of the eyes, the eye coordination system, each of these systems becoming fatigued or becoming burnt out, the more that you're asking of them.
And then eyesight starts to change because the visual system and the eye-brain connection is either damaged or not functioning at its potential.
What's become very clear to me over the past few years, and especially since I've got to know you and come and done your five-day intensive, is that the visual system may well be one of the most neglected areas in our health, for our health.
I know I'm biased.
It's not maybe.
It 100% is.
No one's talking about this.
There is a real interest in health and well-being, whether that be to increase our health span or our lifespan.
But most people who are thinking about that are talking about things like nutrition and sleep and movement.
And of course, these things are important. but no one's talking about vision or the visual system.
That's a problem, isn't it?
It is a huge problem.
Vision is the new microbiome.
We're going to look back on this in a few years and realize vision is responsible or at least influences so many aspects of longevity consciousness happiness productivity, critical decision-making, even interpersonal connection.
And none of us even had a file on it.
Yeah, that's it.
Typically and I can't speak for every optician in the world, but my experience, and what I think many people's experience is is they go and get their eyes checked and if there's an issue, they get corrective lenses, whether it be in glasses or contact lenses.
And that's it.
It's kind of like, yeah, I'll see you in a year.
And that's the reactive model.
That's the reactive model, right.
No one's differentiating there between vision and eyesight.
No one's being taught that, hey, listen, at the moment you're struggling to see.
You're struggling to see that line.
But actually that's a symptom.
Let's draw an analogy, right?
Someone comes in to see me in clinic, let's say.
And let's say I find them to have a raised blood sugar.
Maybe it's not diabetic, type two diabetes, maybe it's pre-diabetic.
One option is to say, you have this, here is a medication.
The other option is to say hey listen, there's quite a few things that will no doubt have been going on in your lifestyle over the past five or 10 years that have contributed to this.
Would you like me to help you identify what those things are and help you then address them?
And the why.
And the why, right?
Do you think that's a reasonable analogy, that when we've got a problem with our visual system, it shows up in our eyesight for many of us, but we're just told to wear glasses?
We're not told or we're not educated as to hey, there could be things you can do to improve this.
It's such a similar parallel.
And it's the band-aid approach, the reactive model we talked about rather than a proactive model.
You go see your eye doctor, whether it's an ophthalmologist, optometrist, optician, whatever O word.
And especially if there's a data point from last year or from the past.
And at a minimum, we can all agree that we're noticing a change.
Far away is blurrier.
As a patient, no one's asking why.
And as a healthcare practitioner, very few are educating on the why.
It's just more.
Here's what we can do to improve the symptom.
But if we ignore the problem, the symptom's going to keep changing.
And we're going to very often adapt to the situation we're in and then need something stronger or different to maintain that same level of function.
But if we look at this as performance and the eye-brain connection.
And, like you, described the other factors that influence eyesight and vision, like lifestyle environment nutrition sleep, systemic function, metabolic function.
I mean, so many other areas of health influence vision and that eye-brain connection.
And if we're disregarding those, we're leaving such a massive piece of healing still on the table.
Yeah.
It's amazing how many different systems and symptoms in the body can be related back to problems in our visual system.
You mentioned a few, fatigue, difficulty reading. difficulty staying focused and concentrating.
You mentioned others to me over the course of the week, motion sickness.
Thank you.
Reading as a sleeping pill.
That was an interesting one to me.
Someone who prefers audio books to regular written books.
Trouble catching a ball, avoiding driving at night.
That's, I guess, you could think, yeah, that must have something to do with the visual system.
But motion sickness, how common is that?
So we could unpack every single one of those plus dozens of others.
Motion sickness, for instance, most people think, oh, that's the inner ear.
That's the vestibular system.
But vision and the vestibular systems, they need to be in a healthy marriage.
They need to be providing feedback that the brain can interpret and process with symmetry and with equilibrium.
Somebody who, as a passenger in the car or in the backseat, when they're on a phone or tablet, Their brain is sending the signals of things being static, yet their vestibular system are sending signals that there's motion.
And the brain gets in this disequilibrium, this disconnect, where it can't filter and process both of those systems.
And so many people will notice their motion sickness is either gone or significantly improved when they're driving, because they're motor planning, they're looking straight ahead, they're adjusting their body based off of visual input on what's occurring and what's to come.
And that alone can help support motion sickness so much.
But you know, when our when our brain is under so much stress from our environment, it's really hard to function at its potential.
I would say that the vast majority of motion sickness has a visual component.
That's treatable and yet most people don't even know that's possible.
Did you just say that if you're driving the car your motion sickness is less?
Is that because you're in control and you know what's coming, you know what's happening?
Whereas if you're a passenger, You don't, so you're having to react to an environment that's out of your control.
That is accurate, but I think even more so.
We have two main visual processing pathways in our brain.
One that responds to central focal visual input and then one that responds to peripheral ambient visual input.
And when we're overriding one or the other, it can lead to a seesaw that's balancing back and forth.
When we're driving we're actually relying on focal processing, but taking in periphery, rather than when we're in the back seat and the seat in front of us is static and everything around us is static, but we're getting all this peripheral optic flow of there's motion and your body's not in a safe place.
The brain doesn't know what to do with that information in many cases.
There's an imbalance.
I guess through an evolutionary lens.
You know obviously a car or a high-speed train.
These are relatively new inventions in the context of our evolution.
So I'm just trying to think about in the past.
You might be running fast, but you're putting in effort.
You're seeing that things are changing.
The environment around you is changing, right?
So it all syncs up together, whereas in a car or a train, something's out of sync.
Evolutionarily, vision is intended to guide movement.
Our visual systems are billions of years old and they've evolved from scanning the horizon for danger and dinner and the saber-toothed tiger coming at us and exploring through nature.
And with this delicate balance between intricate new work with our hands and then lots of distance exploration, and to now collapsing all of that for all this new work that we're doing.
And we haven't, as a species, yet evolved to have the visual foundation to handle all of this input that's coming at us from so many directions all day through our crazy busy lives that often have these 2D devices inches from our face, blasting high-energy light at us for hours on end.
Yeah, it's interesting.
We understand, many of us, that there's a mismatch between our evolutionary heritage and our modern world.
Right.
And for many years.
People who are interested in health and perhaps listen to podcasts like this one will know that there's a mismatch in our food environment.
The food environment in which we've evolved and the food environment in which we now reside is very, very different.
And the less we address that mismatch, it can have consequences.
But you can make the same case for the visual system, right?
We're now using our eyes, yes, on screens, but in very, very different ways to how we used to.
And this is another mismatch that needs addressing.
And by us not addressing it.
It stands to reason that this is why we're having all kinds of downstream problems from the mismatch, the fatigue, the lack of focus, the headaches, the migraines, the motion sickness.
What about this reading as a sleeping pill?
Why is that a symptom of potential visual problems?
Vision is our dominant sensory system and it should be what's guiding and leading and tying together input from all of our other senses to allow us to feel safe in space.
If somebody is relying on their ears rather than their eyes to digest information, whether it's through audiobooks or a child preferring to be read to rather than reading on their own, very likely it's because it's really hard to process vision and use all the delicate, intricate muscles that control our eyes and the pointing and focusing and converging of our eyes to then be able to process that information fluidly, like it's supposed to.
And when... using your eyes together as a team is so taxing and so fatiguing, it drains the system.
It makes you want to fall asleep or disengage or find other means to try and still take in that information.
So hold on a minute.
This is so interesting, right?
So two things came to mind there.
One is that many people today, one of my cousins will say this, is that he can't read books.
He says he much prefers audiobooks.
And I think the common conclusion for many of us is that that's because of the way we consume information.
Now we're used to short form content, quick moving targets on social media reels that are just 15 seconds long.
So our ability to concentrate and read a book has massively changed.
So that's why we might prefer audio books.
But, Interestingly enough, hearing you speak makes me think that maybe that is one reason, but maybe it's also because our visual systems are malfunctioning and therefore It's not a lack of focus necessarily.
It's a symptom of our visual dysfunction.
I would ask your cousin about reading and say, hey, do you lose your place when you read?
Do you sometimes skip words, skip lines?
Do words move and sometimes separate or even go into double?
For most people, we avoid things that are hard for us.
And when reading is hard, we find other ways to still do the necessary tasks.
Now there are many people who say well, when I want to get information, I listen to a podcast or I take it through auditory and that's being productive.
But what can really come from reading with our eyes?
The ability to visualize and to create this story in our mind that is totally unique to the person who's reading that material and is a different story than somebody else reading the exact same material, because we're applying past experiences to what we're reading, we're anticipating what's gonna come, we're thinking in our mind's eye.
So much more can be digested and optimized through reading with our eyes than when we're just hearing it through our ears.
And it's estimated that over 80 of what's learned comes through the visual processing of information.
Now, if we're shutting that down and we're avoiding vision as that dominant, primary sense to understand what's in our world, our brains can still use other areas of it to function, but we're bypassing the most efficient way to really get enjoyment out of so many aspects of life.
Yeah.
You mentioned skipping words.
He said that I could ask my cousin does he skip words when he reads and other things which might indicate that there's a problem with his visual system?
I immediately jumped to children then because a lot of kids will struggle with various things.
And I know for you that there's a lot of problems with our visual system that are put down to being behavioral problems.
But again, that's just downstream.
And if we were to address the visual system, those things will get better.
So can you speak to that a little bit, please?
Love to.
ADD or ADHD dyslexia, learning disabilities, mental health challenges, even executive functioning deficiencies all have a visual component.
And so often in the medical world.
Labels like those diagnoses are so quick to be slapped on behaviors without looking into what the root cause would be of those issues.
And functional vision problems have so many of the same symptoms and behaviors as so many of those labels.
If you cannot control your eyes and their ability to focus, for instance, then you cannot control your mind and its ability to focus.
And if we think about just eye movements across midline, which is the tracking eye movement, that would intimately correlate with losing our place with reading, skipping words or skipping lines.
Any change in eye movement, whether it's voluntary or involuntary, is a change in attention.
And if you can't control your eye movements, you can't control your attention.
So, so often, a child in a classroom setting who is not looking at the teacher when they're talking because it's so hard for them to take in all the sensory input from the classroom that they're relying on their ears, not their eyes.
They're maybe listening and fully engaged to everything that's going on in the classroom through that processing system, but they're going to be mislabeled as somebody who's not focused or has ants in their pants because they need this motor overflow, or because it's so hard for them to copy from the board to their page because they don't have the flexibility with their eye coordination systems.
So I think in so many aspects of health we're so quick to just put a label on a behavior trouble focusing and ADD or ADHD.
It's not like there's a blood test that says, oh, you have this.
It's based off of a profile and symptoms, but there's so many treatments out there that are often low hanging fruit to address the ability to focus the eyes, which then, at a minimum, improves ability to focus the mind.
Yeah.
I've heard you say that these are incomplete diagnoses without a functional vision assessment.
Without addressing vision or even looking into the functional vision.
Yeah, and I think that's a really nice way of putting it because...
You're not saying things don't exist.
You're not saying they're not real.
You're just saying let's look at the visual system, because if we can improve the visual system, you might be surprised by how many things start to get better.
No one is born with the ability to read, or to track their eyes, or to focus, or even with depth perception.
It's all developed through our life experiences.
And it's either learned well through the right sequencing of developmental milestones or learned poorly.
And that's when intervention needs to take place.
But especially kids today, they're being exposed to screens and technology earlier than ever before.
They're often being asked to read at early and earlier ages before they're visually ready.
And if somebody doesn't have the systems and the foundations in place to meet the demands, they avoid or they adapt.
And these maladaptations, these bad habits are really what so many of these vision problems look like.
Yeah.
I definitely want us to cover practical things that people can start doing.
Yeah.
Before we do that though, I wonder if the best way to approach this is through my experience this week.
Okay, so I mentioned earlier, but just to reiterate, I have been wearing glasses or contact lenses for many years now.
I can't remember when it started, definitely at some point in secondary school or high school.
So a while.
And a few years ago, I started to think, why is it that myopia is on the rise, right?
Short-sightedness.
It's interesting that the less time we spend outside, the more time we spend indoors on screens, the more this is going up right.
So I thought this is really interesting.
So clearly there is an environmental component here.
So I started to investigate and start to research is it possible to reverse myopia, right?
So I've been doing all kinds of things.
I've been looking various things up and it's not easy to get clear information on this, and most opticians will tell you that it's not possible.
You can't trust everything you read on the internet.
Yeah yeah, exactly right.
But i'm a very curious guy and i'm thinking no, there must be a way that i can get this better.
Now The punchline is right for people.
When I came to your clinic on Monday and today's Friday, what was the state of my eyesight and what was it when you checked me about two hours ago?
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So without any correction, on without your contacts, on without glasses, on Monday you were seeing 2400, which is that big letter E for most people.
They know what that looks like on the letter chart.
That was the smallest symbol you could see across the long exam room.
And I say this with love and respectfully.
You know it was making a face and leaning in and really trying to pull it out.
So it was a week 2400, but it was 2400.
We measured the exact same way today, exact same room, exact same person.
And you were seeing 2070, like pretty well, and even made out a few on the 2060 line, which means you're seeing images or symbols significantly smaller farther away than you were five days ago, without lenses on your face, without anything helping support that other than the crazy amount of work you did this week to really emphasize eye coordination and depth perception and visual processing and eye focus but, mainly for you, the accommodative system, the focusing muscles inside of our eye whose job is to make things clear and keep it clear.
Like an old school camera lens, we want that system to be on auto focus.
When we met on Monday, that was stuck on manual focus.
And you've now developed a clear rapport with the Z-axis what's in front of you, so that you've learned how to lock in and see things clearer at different distances, because you you know where that image is.
You know that spatial mismatch has been dramatically improved.
Yeah, so basically I've gone from 2400 on Monday with nothing in my eyes, no contact lenses, no glasses, nothing to 2070 or even 2060, right?
In just five days.
Now, we've been working together, me and various members of your team.
Maximum this week would be three hours a day, but sometimes it was two hours.
We did 12 hours of active work.
And it was a lot of fun.
That's awesome.
It was a lot of fun.
I was smiling and making jokes throughout it.
I felt like a childlike play.
I've learned so much.
I'm noticing it just when I walk around.
Even after day one on Monday, you did two hours of assessment with me in the morning, two hours of work in the afternoon of me doing exercises.
The following morning when I got up, I went out for a walk.
I was noticing all kinds of stuff that I wasn't noticing before.
It's as if a switch had been flicked on in my brain.
I was noticing the peripheries.
I had a different dimensional experience of the world. wow, we only did two hours of work yesterday.
What else is going to happen this week?
So there's many more things that we've done throughout the week that have improved, which we'll talk about.
But I just want to make that clear to people that we get told that you can't reverse your eyesight.
I have massively improved.
I don't know.
What would you call that?
A factor of six?
A factor of seven?
I'm doing the math as we're talking.
It's close to that.
But I want to be clear.
This wasn't just like, hey, let's do some eye exercises.
Let's do yoga together.
I mean we have what we call vision performance training, which is a very specific thing synergy of lots of different modalities that we've evolved with time, but can figure out the exact protocol of exactly what to do at the right sequence with the right feedback.
So you can learn how to self-correct, self-monitor and really use your eyes to rewire the software of your brain to change how you're using vision.
You were teed up for us because, as a complete exaggeration, you were going through life as if you were looking through paper towel holders.
Very... focal, very central, very myopic where your visual system was tunneled in.
And by opening up periphery and developing a better balance between what's in front of you and what's around you, You've drastically decreased or eliminated the spatial mismatch where you were literally aligning your eyes as if you were perceiving things farther back in space than where they were.
Your depth perception, your brain's ability to see in 3D, which is the best indication of how the eyes are working well together as a team, was not where it should be for an adult who has the visual demands that you have in life.
And your eyes were working independently of each other.
I mean, there were so many times where, because of this rivalry or this competition over sensory input, your brain was saying I can't use both of my eyes together, so I'm going to just pick one rather than use them both together.
You were using one eye for near and one eye for far, because it was too hard to use both for both distances.
What's so cool is We could not have taught a brain to function or do what you are doing if we tried.
It's not how our brain is wired.
My brain had adapted over decades to function in that way.
Absolutely.
In a very dysfunctional way.
Completely.
And there was these roadblocks, that you did all the work and because you were so motivated and you're here for the right reasons, and because we knew how to filter and screen out.
Is this gonna leave us with life-altering improvement or just a little bit of improvement?
We knew from day one.
You probably remember, with a smile on my face like, oh man, you have no idea what's coming for you this week.
I am very motivated, very motivated because I don't buy this.
It doesn't make sense to me that This many people need glasses and contact lenses and there's nothing else we can do about it.
It's never made sense to me.
But over the last few years, this itch within me is getting bigger and bigger and louder and louder.
And I tell you there's a couple of things that have happened recently which have really played into this for me.
I've shared this a couple of times on the podcast before, but I don't think in this context.
Last summer we went on a family holiday to Kenya and I went on safari and I was mesmerized with how well the guides could see across a long African plain.
They could see in the trees the little head of a giraffe.
I was like, how are you seeing that?
I couldn't believe it.
But of course, they've adapted to that because, you know- It's life or death if they don't, right?
Yeah, so I get it.
So they need that skill in that environment.
So I thought that's really interesting.
But also to be clear, if he ever had to look at something or read something, he was able to.
So I was thinking, is that, yes, clearly they're adapted for that.
Okay, that's how we've adapted for most of our evolution, right?
It seems that many of us have now adapted to a world of screens where everything's near.
Reading books even, I guess.
Everything's near, near, near, near, near.
And many of us, myself as an example, has lost some of that ability to look out into the distance.
That flexibility.
That flexibility.
And you said something when you saw me on Monday I was stuck on manual focus, which is really interesting.
So I want to try and highlight something, which I think is really important.
When we go to an optician and they say yeah, you're short-sighted, your prescription is I don't know minus 25 right in both eyes.
Let's assume it was symmetrical, which I'm not sure how many people's are.
And that's another point I want to discuss, right?
Minus 2.5 in both and they then give you a correction.
Let's say contact lenses and you're wearing them all the time.
Is that why?
Or is that one of the reasons my vision got stuck and it didn't have the mobility and the flexibility to go far, to come near?
Yeah, I think it's part of it.
But to go back to what you were saying, I mean, although we're living longer now than the cavemen did, cavemen weren't wearing glasses, right?
Life was balanced.
They're exploring through nature.
They're in natural lighting.
They're not on their phones in between hunts and gathers.
I mean, the stress from our world and our environment has now exponentially grown.
And we're adapting to our worlds and to these environments.
And so when you notice somebody's eyesight starts to change in every situation.
That is such a critical point in the evolution and development of their visual system for the future.
Because very likely there is stress from the world that they're adapting to.
There's really common timelines when myopia progresses or develops more than others.
For many kids, it's usually when they're learning to read as the first one, when they're so much more up close.
There's changes that occur through Through adolescence to our body and to our hormones.
There's changes that occur in college or university, when there's that much more reading, that much more screens, that much more near demand.
There's changes in our 40s when anatomically, our focusing muscles and the lens inside of our eye become more rigid and less flexible.
But if we just give in to the problems and we rely on the Band-Aid or the help with glasses which many cases it's needed, but again we disregard the why and the brain function and the component with the eye-brain connection that's causing that, then we're literally just on a runway that goes into the future where it's really hard to get off of it because your sense of normal has shifted.
And then we start to see really clearly with lenses.
And as soon as something becomes less clear, we wanna seek out that optimal clarity again.
And we talked on the way over how In school for myself and for every doctor out there we're told that we have to take the measurements to get somebody to see the tiniest letters far away, and then we have to give them glasses or contacts to allow them to see that 20-20 line.
And if we don't, we're failing them as providers.
No two people see the same.
Not everybody has to see the same.
And I always try and push for 20 happy rather than 20.
20, which means let's be in glasses or lenses, if needed, that are the weakest amount possible, the most balanced between each eye, that give the most improvement to performance.
If performance isn't improving with any type of medical intervention, why are we going down that path?
And performance can be systemically with our blood work.
It can be with brain function, with what we're talking about here.
Performance is with depth and reaction time and visual processing.
And the more we can access and use on our own, the more of our brain that we can tap into, the more potential we can unlock and the more unnecessary struggling can be avoided.
This idea that you in your field are all taught to help correct your patients to that 2020 line.
It's really interesting because many things in life we accept as truths but we don't actually realize they're beliefs.
A belief is not a truth.
Correcting your vision to 2020, it's not a truth in the sense that it's a belief.
It's a belief that that is the best way to treat you or improve your eyesight.
Or the only way.
Or the only way, right.
But does that correction to 20-20 vision sometimes come at a cost?
And what I mean by that is if you need I don't know a minus three lens in order to see the 2020 line, and then you go out in the world with that minus three lens on all the time.
Have you optimized for one thing at the expense of other things?
I love that we're talking about this because it totally depends on the person.
There are some people who get their first pair of glasses in fifth grade and their prescription never changes.
And then there's others who, literally every six months, for decades, they keep adapting, it keeps progressing and they keep needing more help in the form of stronger lenses to maintain that same level of clarity.
If we're not asking why or addressing what can be done to slow this down, in some cases even stop it, we're doing ourselves, our patients, our family members a disservice.
And, as an adult, if your prescription is changing year after year, To me that is like neon lights around it, warning signs that there's a functional vision problem.
Our prescriptions should not be changing unless we're not able to meet the demands of what we're asking of our eye-brain connection.
And then that's evolving.
I think it's important to recognize somebody who is in sales, who is talking with people all day long, has a very different visual demand than somebody who's a computer programmer on a screen for 10 hours plus a day.
Their visual profile, their prescription change is gonna be so different because the demands that they're asking of their eyes and brain are so different.
Can we look at this, I don't know, let's make a comparison with physical exercise.
Yeah.
Okay, if you wanted to run endurance half marathons, let's say, or marathons, and you wanted to train in the week for that, you would have certain things that you would do more of than others, right?
Probably more endurance.
Maybe you would do some strength, but maybe less strength than, for example, someone who really wanted to be a bodybuilder and focus on getting big and muscle hypertrophy.
They may do less endurance and lots and lots of reps of heavy weights in the gym because they've got different goals.
Is it fair to say then, that we should, or might want us to be looking at our lives a bit more holistically?
I go, well, for the things I want to do in life, I need a visual system that's good for A, B and C.
So for example, let's say you were a tennis player, right?
I want to come to tennis because I sort of feel Some of the stuff I've done this week with you makes me realize why ball sports and outdoor ball sports, for example might be so good for our visual system.
Can I share my story?
Please.
Because tennis comes into this story.
I'm a product of this work, and I'm one of the most drastic of success stories.
And as a child, fitting in with my peers mattered.
Obviously, sports was the whole thing.
When I was really young, every time with baseball would strike out.
On the soccer field, I was totally lost, overwhelmed in space.
I fought my parents on reading and on homework.
I could never pick up on sight words.
I'd write letters flipped and reversed around.
I would get super motion sick on long car rides.
We had a brown bag there all the time.
I struggled with confidence and it really hindered my performance in the classroom and even my behavior with my parents, siblings and friends.
Now, at the time I didn't know this, but I had massive visual developmental delays, meaning I had really poor depth perception.
My eyes didn't work well together as a team.
I had an alternating eye turn.
So I really used one eye in the presence of the other, but never used them both together.
And I felt like a turtle in my shell retreating in so many aspects of life.
Fortunately, I got the perfect right work for me in vision training.
And I turned this disability into a strength, where I went from being a reluctant reader and the last one picked on sports teams to an avid reader, stud with hand-eye coordination and a really confident kid.
And I now attribute all my success in life athletically academically, even interpersonally to the benefits of doing this work at the right time in life.
But tennis was my sport.
And it's not because of genes, but I could.
I literally developed the ability to slow down the ball, to process information more quickly, to prepare myself to move to where the ball was going to be rather than where it was.
I not only got perfect depth perception, I could anticipate where the ball would be and plan the path of the ball so that I could get an advantage over my opponent by being a step ahead.
And with tennis I mean our ability to take the inside and outside muscles of our eyes, have them work together in synergy to then perceive depth and react appropriately For any brain at any age.
That can be enhanced and improved.
But even for you now, after all this work this week, tennis is going to be a great way to help solidify what's been developed so that you can allow for transfer to life and apply all this hard work to fast moving space.
And one of the coolest things I do now is I help identify with pro teams or college teams or even Olympians, where vision development is, where visual cognitive development is.
And when there's a gap, will say take this player, we'll close the gap and you're gonna get that much more return on the investment if it's somebody that you're bringing on onto your team, because vision should be guiding and leading and it can be for any of us.
But if we don't even recognize that as having the potential that it has, we're missing a huge piece of the puzzle.
Yeah, it's, you know... in a whole variety of different fields, you often find the best practitioners and the ones who are breaking down boundaries, like I would argue you are in this field, It comes from personal experience or personal struggle, and no one is gonna be more motivated to overcome that than you, right?
So you have all these different symptoms relationship problems fatigue, you don't wanna read, you're fighting with your parents.
These are all downstream symptoms.
You had one problem, your visual system.
It was all because my eyes weren't working well together.
Yeah, and you correct that and suddenly all these seemingly disparate symptoms just get better.
Okay, it's a real root cause approach to life.
Now you said, like in tennis, for example, that you're effectively- you're effectively slowing the game down because you're able to see the ball much better, much earlier.
You have more time to prepare.
We often hear, don't we, that some of the top athletes in a whole variety of different sports, when they're in flow state or when they're playing well, they're seeing things that other players are not right.
You know Messi, Ronaldo in football, or what you would call soccer, right?
But you're playing with your feet, it's football.
Right.
It's as if they knew what was happening two seconds, or what seems like two seconds, but it was probably like two milliseconds ahead.
Do you think those guys naturally have good visual systems?
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I've been blessed to see some of the top athletes in many different sports.
And in many cases they do have elite level visual processing and visual skills.
But when I hear flow state, I mean that's like so many people are on this pursuit of flow stated.
How can I find this and how can I get more of this?
In my interpretation of flow state, Being able to access it myself pretty much at will is this heightened sense of central and peripheral processing, where you are so confident on your sense of self and space and what's in front of you that dynamically you can make the most accurate adjustments in real time.
And literally the world is in slow motion.
And we can measure that.
We can quantify that.
And we can help close the gap to help people access that more easily.
Yeah.
I'm just so happy right now, Bryce.
I can't even tell you because...
We've done this intensive work, but I can feel day to day that my experience of the world is different.
So that's so great.
Even though we're having a conversation here now, I can see what's on that wall, right?
I can see the picture there.
I can see the red time o'clock.
I can see the plant there, right?
I don't think six days ago I was aware of that stuff, right?
And even if I was, I wasn't aware that I knew.
And so this is just a great real life expression for me that what we did in your clinic this week is already having real world application.
And it's such a joy to watch.
And I'm so grateful to have the opportunity to work with you because you are such a beautiful person.
But your excitement is what everybody should be feeling going through this.
And most of our patients.
You know it's along the same same lines.
Here you are in a constant state of fight or flight, visually.
I don't know about other areas of life.
Hold on, can you even separate the visual system from the rest of the body?
Because I wanted to talk to you about stress and the visual system today, because it really relates to that.
We know that if we're looking at a horizon, the sea, we're on a beach, we're on holiday and we've got that soft peripheral vision where we can just see as far as the eye can see.
We know that that actually is a way of activating the parasympathetic nervous system.
So you're switching off stress, promoting relaxation.
So it kind of stands to reason because all of these things are bi-directional.
You said when I came to see you on Monday, I was locked in this manual focus.
I had tunnel vision.
So my eyes were in a state of visual stress.
To me it's kind of funny an obvious follow on that there would have been stress in my life out with the visual system, because I just don't see how you can separate the visual system from your nervous system.
You can, and your eyes are part of your brain.
They emerge in the first trimester from the brain.
They're the only part of your brain you can see without things getting messy.
The human visual system under stress.
When the autonomic nervous system is in that fight or flight response, our pupils widen and we lock in with this tunnel vision.
And it's meant to do that.
It's meant to do that, to protect yourself for danger that's coming at you so you can react.
You're blocking off everything that doesn't matter, other than that saber tooth tiger coming at you.
So you know how to react and get out of harm's way.
To a T, this is what's happening with our world that's now been brought within arm's length.
When we're on screens, our vision, our thinking, our attention become tunneled.
And for the average American adult, they spend seven hours and four minutes a day on a screen.
The average American eight to 10 year old spends six hours a day on a screen, that's average.
But what that means is we're promoting stress and the stress response and shifting how our brain is functioning.
So people are making critical decisions for work under a state of fight or flight.
People are not able to divergently think or think outside the box, or aren't able to have the patience that they deserve when they come home to see their family after work because literally, you're tensed up and you're locked in all day long.
It changes who we are, right?
A lot of people don't realize that when you're stressed, things are meant to change, right?
As you say, you are meant to have tunnel vision.
You're not meant to be empathetic and seeing the other perspective.
You're dealing with the immediate threats.
But if you can be intentional and pull back.
Exactly.
And we'll talk about things that we can all start today.
You mentioned being on the beach and looking out to the horizon and activating parasympathetic tone.
I mean, having that balance, it allows you to be more present.
It allows you to not react without being intentional and actually thinking before you react.
And it can avoid so many aspects of systemic disease.
Yeah, I had a thought then, right?
It can appear sometimes that the world is very divided, particularly online, okay?
You know, huge division, huge disagreements, people shouting each other through their keyboards.
And a lot of the time the blame or some of the blame is put on social media or the modern media landscape and which headline can out negative the next headline to capture the attention.
And of course, that's a contributor.
But looking at it through the visual system, you could argue that if many of us stroke, most of us, because of our modern screen dominated worlds, are having visual system problems and locking us into a state of visual stress which ultimately is going to translate to whole body stress.
Maybe one of the reasons we appear so divided is because of our visual systems.
And maybe if more and more of us could improve our visual processing and the way our visual systems operate, like I've had the very good fortune to do with you and your team this week, it could help make the world a kinder, more empathetic, more compassionate place.
Take away the maybe, 100%.
And so many different generations of people coming up now, a lot of the 20-year-olds and teenagers who have difficulty maintaining eye contact because they haven't had the interpersonal connection that comes with being away from screens and actually communicating in the real world.
They have trouble controlling their eye movements.
They have trouble looking at somebody without having to look away or even just maintaining eye contact.
Or when they're looking at someone, they're thinking do I look at the left eye or the right eye or the nose or the mouth?
Because I can't take in the whole picture.
That's so common.
So common.
But that's, I would argue, created by our society.
And we don't know what an entire lifetime of screens does to somebody yet.
But we have the initial data and we're seeing what's evolving and emerging by the day to show it is scary what's occurring right now.
And I can't even imagine, decades from now, what this pounding of this visual stress is gonna do to just overall happiness, quality of life and empathy that we can have for each other as humans.
It's interesting that your whole, I guess, urgency to look into this and tackle this and create the ScreenFit program that you have done this online program really, I think was from the COVID pandemic.
Is that when things really start to kick off for you?
Yeah, I mean honestly everything for me personally emotionally, but even professionally, changed over COVID.
And pre-COVID, at least professionally.
I thought if I can't help somebody 100 I don't want to work with them.
And now realizing helping somebody 20%, 50%, 80% is still helping somebody.
And seeing what screens were doing to my three young kids at the time, I immediately knew okay, this is a big problem for them.
And it's a big problem for mankind that hasn't emerged yet.
So I created this online vision training program designed to build the visual foundation, build the visual skills and abilities necessary for reading, for screens, for driving at night, for life, in a way where it's kind of like body weight work at home instead of going to the gym.
You're going to get in better shape if you go to the gym and work with a trainer.
Same thing here.
You're going to have better results working one-on-one and intensive, like we did this week, but not everybody has access to that.
Didn't you tell me that someone went from minus eight to zero just by doing the ScreenFit program?
With intention, yeah.
And I wouldn't say that's the reason to do screen fit.
But this type of person was in this heavy stress response and kept eating up the lens powers and their prescription was rapidly increasing.
And in a very short period of time, they went from a minus 150 to a minus eight.
And luckily heard about what we were doing and realized oh my gosh, you guys are changing the model of vision and how the world is viewing vision.
I want to be a part of this.
This gentleman did not live locally, so we didn't have the opportunity to have him come to the office at the time.
Went through the ScreenFit program and throughout very clear benchmarks in the program, he dropped his prescription and took it from really high to really low, based off of doing the right functional work to support easing into less help in the form of lenses.
And then even this intensive that we did this week.
We'd always seen people from other states and countries for the last dozen or so years, but it became so dialed in as a clear protocol over COVID, because the visual profiles we were seeing were unlike what we've ever seen before.
And my team and I were, okay, we've never seen COVID.
This lead of accommodation, somebody who has a spasm of their focusing system yet is under converging their eyes.
This makes no sense.
What does that mean in layman's terms?
In layman's terms, we have inside and outside muscles of our eyes.
The inside muscles.
That's our focusing system that lets us know what something is, allows us to make something clear and keep it clear.
Outside muscles is our eye coordination system that lets us know where something is.
So in a normal, healthy brain, the where and the what give us the same feedback.
So something is single and clear.
For this gentleman, his what was completely locked in.
And his wear was under engaged and let go because he literally couldn't use these systems together.
And so we came up with new protocols and, every single day, learn from our patients and continue to raise the bar in terms of what the ideal treatment protocol should look like for certain conditions, but got to a place where we rebooted everything we were doing in terms of treatment to go from what was vision therapy and vision training to now this vision performance training, which is this holistic model that incorporates movement and balance and vestibular input and thinking, because vision doesn't operate in isolation of these systems.
Yeah.
And so now that we're in this world where screens are not going anywhere, and I'm not anti-tech.
Actually, you know from this week, we're very pro-tech.
We use augmented reality and virtual reality and eye tracking computers, but we also do three-dimensional work.
But most people don't have the foundation to thrive in this digital world without training it, because it hasn't naturally evolved yet as a species.
Yeah, a bit like we would have always been active.
You couldn't sit at home and have your dinner delivered and work from home and earn money.
You had to go out and walk and hunt or play, go and dig for tubers and then bring it back and cook it right.
You had to be physically active each day in order to survive, right?
I'm sure it's like this in the UK.
You can go to the grocery store through your phone.
You can date through your phone.
You can ask your neighbor for an egg if you need one through your phone.
And we're not engaging in movement.
Yeah.
Hence, we need all this education on you need to move your body regularly.
Gyms, this sort of training, that kind of training.
Here's what you shouldn't eat.
Here's what you should eat.
Here's what you should do.
We didn't need that 100,000 years ago.
I guess, again drawing that same analogy to vision, you're basically saying that we're living in a highly stressful visual world.
And if you don't do something about it, you're going to face the consequences.
So let's get some practical exercises for people who perhaps just want to know what they can do immediately.
Just before that though, you said that you noticed something that was happening to your children in the COVID lockdowns.
You noticed what screens were doing to them.
What were screens doing to them?
So, as a functional eye doctor, we were clearly not a house that supported screen time At all, much less at that early age.
And I remember- How old were they?
At the time, five, five, and two.
Okay.
I have twins that are older now and then a younger one.
And there was a particular afternoon, I can remember as clear as day where I was standing.
One of the twins had a sheet over his head and his iPad underneath.
And then his sister was in a dark room with the screen like literally glued to her face.
And my two-year-old, who was in her first year of preschool, was on a class play date, which literally meant she was looking at our laptops.
This was the first time she'd ever seen a laptop.
And she was looking around the laptop saying, where is Madeline?
I see Madeline on this like rectangle thing with all these lights.
She's not here.
And it was like, oh my God.
And even just seeing that, it was freaky.
And I saw just how pulling the screens away from them, that they couldn't self-regulate.
And the transition that came with that, there was behavioral outbursts.
And then, at the same time, my son had developed pretty massive myopia.
At the time, my daughter was starting to to show and i hope they don't mind i'm sharing this, but starting to show nervous ticks and it was like, oh my gosh yes, there's all this stress in the world from covet and yes, they're seeing some of the stress manifesting my wife and myself, but We're locked in our house, right?
Like everybody was.
And the only difference was they were on screens more.
And some of it was just because we had to survive at the time and, you know, it was part of life.
So I immediately put the twins in vision training.
My son's now almost 11, zero signs of myopia.
So that's all gone.
Gone.
And he was literally on the exact same path as me in terms of what he was developing visually.
That's been rerouted.
He's now a wide receiver on an elite flag football team and has eye-hand coordination.
That's through the roof.
My daughter is so much more grounded and also can withstand stress so much more easily.
But again, no signs of any refractive changes.
So what is it that these screens are doing?
What has changed is...
Screen time has pulled in this tunnel vision effect for them.
It's made it so that it's so much harder to self-regulate and self-monitor.
It's made it so that they just felt dysregulated all the time.
Their sleep was disrupted.
They weren't going to bed as easily, as quickly as they were.
They were always reaching for it.
They were coming out of boredom, reaching for a screen, not even being able to learn how to self-soothe which, at that age, like that's one of the many things that needs to be taught.
And then we just, you know, i took that opportunity to say well, let's start doing vision exercises at home.
So, as a family, we all started doing stuff.
We started doing eye stretches, we started doing near far focus activities.
And as soon as my office reopened I mean, they were one of the first ones back in the office with masks and everything like we all had on, but we set the foundation at the perfect time.
And then that's where this fire was lit within me.
We got to help people beyond the walls of my two offices here.
And let's get a program that can get out there for the world, that can, for many people, dramatically move the needle in terms of symptoms.
And we've had thousands of patients go through it.
Adults and kids and teenagers.
As young as five, as old as 89.
Yeah.
And I was on a webinar yesterday where every time I say this, I kind of want to like bite my tongue.
100% of people who've gone through the program and finished have seen a reduction in symptoms.
100%.
Yeah.
It's just the right sequenced work and the right work that if you do it just like if you work out, if you work out and do the right stuff, you're gonna get better shape.
But if you don't do it and don't do the right stuff, you're not gonna get better shape.
Yeah.
One of the things that I am dead against is screens being used at this level in education.
It's terrible.
I have so much respect for teachers, but the people who are making the decisions on the introduction of screens into schools, I don't think they are aware of the damage they're doing.
And some people push back, oh, it's just the way the modern world is now.
It's not.
It is absolutely not, right?
It does not have to be.
Children were learning just fine 10 years ago without screens in the classroom.
A, there is evidence that they're problematic, right?
But when people say, where's the evidence for that?
You can also say, where's the evidence that this stuff is safe?
What have you tested?
Where have you said that four hours a day of children on screens in the classroom is gonna be good for them?
There's no evidence.
In fact, all the evidence would point to the fact that that is not good for them.
And I get there may be easier for teachers, easier for schools.
This is coming at a massive, massive cost.
Sure, they can be useful for some things, I'm sure. but not for everything.
I certainly see no case for any homework at all to be given on screens, personally.
I think it's one of the fundamental principles of circadian biology is light in the day, dark at night.
And natural light during the day.
Yeah.
And it's like, I have a real problem with...
Schools giving their homework on screens to their children.
I don't think the teachers know the damage they're doing.
And I don't know if I told you this the other night Bryce, I helped to film a Channel 4 documentary last year in the UK.
And we took a class of year eights, so 12 and 13 year olds.
And they had no technology at all for 21 days, smartphones, laptops, gaming devices, everything.
And we measured everything with the University of York.
And top line depression and anxiety got better.
They felt more socially connected than less socially connected, right.
Because they were not on screens.
They were actually having real three-dimensional connections with their colleagues and their family and their friends.
They were sleeping one hour extra per night, right?
And check this.
This didn't make the edit, unfortunately, this final point.
Their HRV, heart rate variability, went significantly up after two to three days.
You know, HIV is a market of stress on the body.
High HRV, generally speaking, is a good thing.
Their HRVs got better when they had no screens.
It wasn't all smartphones.
It was all technology.
So this stuff is literally stressing us out.
And we're sleepwalking as adults, but also as kids into this really problematic epidemic.
And what incredible work.
And that's asking people not to do something.
You're asking them to not do something.
Yeah.
Right.
And we now?
I mean from a vision perspective.
There is clear research and clear science that shows myopia is increasing at an alarming rate.
And the three main risk factors are not enough time outdoors with natural sunlight, poor lighting levels for near work and prolonged near visual stress in the form of too much screen time.
When we landed on the moon in 1969, a fourth of America was nearsighted.
Right now it's at about 43% and climbing.
And from a global perspective, 30% of the world is nearsighted right now.
It's estimated by 2050, 50% of the world will be nearsighted.
There's no denying what this is doing, what screens are doing to our visual system, and yet My profession, at least with the reactive standard eye care, hasn't really changed much.
I mean, there are FDA-approved protocols to slow down the progression of nearsightedness, but very little being talked about or done to actually address the functional component which— clearly shows there is a brain attached to the eyes that's not optimized or functioning at its potential.
And yet we're not even acknowledging that.
What's different between screens and reading books?
Yeah.
I know there's a blue light issue, right?
And let's even pause on the blue light for a second.
Yeah. entirely different visual demands on a screen than on a paper book.
First of all, there's a closer working distance.
There's different demands on those inside and outside muscles.
We talked about the focusing system and the eye conversion system.
There are more eye movements required that are less organized.
When you read a book, you're going left to right and you're going in a line.
On a screen, you're darting your eyes all over the place.
It's a closer working distance.
There's the high energy, short wavelength light.
The blue light, there's the contrast, the glare, the brightness.
The flicker, I think is the problem.
I mean, flicker frequency, that creates sensory overload for so many people.
And I can't believe we've been this long in the talk here where we haven't even brought up junk lighting.
I mean junk lighting.
These LED lights can put our brains into an immediate state of fight or flight and can shift how we're processing and taking in the world.
We're then getting artificial blue light that's blasting our eyes and brains for hours on end.
Blue light is actually not bad for us.
Blue light is essential for us, but that's natural blue light to help regulate circadian rhythms and mood and alertness, which is why, first thing in the morning, last thing before bed, it's great to get outside, get some movement in, but get natural light in through our eyes, which are light receivers.
But this artificial blue light that's blasting our eyes all day long, that's telling the specialized cells in the back of our eye whose sole job is to signal the release of melatonin, to let you know whether you're asleep or awake.
When those cells are overstimulated, there's a negative feedback loop that occurs and all of a sudden, metabolic function gets influenced, sleep gets influenced and our homeostasis changes.
Yeah, Reading books then, compared to being on a screen, is completely different.
You're saying it's better to read books.
Better read books, and tactilely holding the book gives you such a better sense of where this is positioned in space, so you can make the right eye movements that are more accurate.
But that's one thing I don't think we really have realized.
I've understood this through my work with my own movement coach, Helen, who is just phenomenal.
But that tactile awareness, you know, we are these three dimensional creatures.
And you know just as if in a car, when you're moving fast, even though you're sitting down and your brain's like there's a disconnect here, like I'm not moving, my quads are not moving.
But the whole world is.
The whole world is.
There's a big mismatch there.
I think also on screens, there is that mismatch.
What you said there was really quite provocative that at least in a book, You can feel it.
You're feeling the page.
All the signals, the inputs to your brain, they're all kind of, they're synchronous.
They're all going the same way.
Your brain knows what to expect.
Whereas on a screen, you don't.
And not only do you not, you're locked in.
You get the dopamine release where it just wants you to stay and come back for more.
And then, all of a sudden, you're under that stress state for significantly longer than you would be on paper, because you're coming back for more and you're almost getting – the taste that your brain doesn't want to let go of.
Yeah.
In terms of practical exercises okay, so yes, for those people who are that way inclined, motivated and have the resource to do so yes, there is this deep dive, five day intensive, with you and your team which, of course, the truth is, most people in the world are not gonna have access to right.
And are not gonna be able to do that or even have the motivation to do that.
You have this online screen fit program, which is brilliant, which people can do at home themselves to learn those skills.
I really, really appreciate you giving my audience that discount codes.
So if people go to screenfitcom forward, slash live more or just put in the promo code LIVE MORE, they're going to get a discount, a 200 discount.
So thank you so much for that.
Absolutely.
And it makes it a lot easier to cross the start line for people to get going on that journey towards vision improvement.
Great.
But in terms of practical stuff, that people who don't want to do any of that, that they can immediately go.
You know what?
I've, I've been convinced I want to do something for my visual system.
What are some things that they can kind of do immediately?
So I think like you hit on, there's four different levels.
There's the all-in intensive.
There's the at-home customized sequence program with ScreenFit.
There's the at-home stuff.
And then level zero is doing nothing.
And everybody listening right now, you're crushing that.
You're doing nothing because you didn't know any better.
But absolutely let's get to that first level, where there are simple exercises that everybody should do every day, just like you move your body, just like you go out on a walk.
We should all be doing a near-far focus activity, and we can talk through that.
We should all be doing eye stretches.
We can talk through that.
We should all be doing peripheral pointing and we should all be taking regular, consistent vision breaks when we were on screens.
So the 20 20, 20 rule at a minimum, which means at least every 20 minutes, taking a break for at least 20 seconds and looking at something at least 20 feet away, but getting up, getting away from that locked in screen where, when we're on a screen, literally our focusing system is under tension over time.
Unless you're trying to get buff and you're at the gym.
Tension over time is not what you want for muscles of your body, especially your eye muscles, because that is what causes eye strain and fatigue and headaches and light sensitivity.
And your visual system.
I mean, if everyone were to squeeze their fists right now and squeeze them as hard as you can.
After a few seconds, your hand starts to hurt.
But if you were to let go and come back, you could do that for much longer.
Your focusing system is under tension when you're on a screen.
And just the same way, your hand aches with extended squeezes.
Extended screen time causes headache and eye strain, and that locked up visual system.
Yeah, it's kind of interesting.
One of the most amazing things that I'm going home with following five days with you is just a deep increased awareness.
Yes, I've learned skills.
Yes, I've got exercises to do.
But I just feel that I'm so much more in tune now with my visual system, my eyes, the tension in my eyes.
I mean, I think many people will be having tension in their eyes and they're not even tuned in to it.
They don't even know what that feels like.
And I think you and your team were really great this week throughout the exercise.
You know what does that feel like, or what does it feel like here, and it's what Helen has always done with me as my movement coach.
It's like what does that feel like really to try and empower me so that I don't need her right, so I can start to feel.
Oh, that's what it feels like, and I had a very light work week this week on purpose, because I knew how intense this week was going to be.
But I did have a Zoom call after our training on Wednesday.
Got back to the hotel and I was on it.
And I tell you, I could feel it.
After 15 minutes, I thought, oh my God, my eyes opened.
My eyes are tight.
And without telling anyone, I just raised them to the top of the screen.
I went out wide, all the divergence that we've been practicing this week.
And I just felt it all release.
And then I came back to it.
Which is awesome, right?
And then I think, how many Zoom calls have I done where I've been there for an hour or an hour and a half, constantly looking at the screen, focusing?
I mean, that's exhausting, isn't it?
Yeah.
I don't tend to get symptoms like a headache or eye strain that I'm aware of, but you definitely feel tired sometimes after these calls, don't you?
And you've put in a ton of work before this point on your body and on your mindset and on nutrition, to really set up as robust of a system as you can.
Most people we see with your profile, it's the complete opposite.
It's eye strain, fatigue, can't wait to shut down the Zoom calls after the back-to-back meetings.
So many aspects of life are influenced, based off of vision interfering and not functioning like it's supposed to.
But I think what's so neat with what you've shared about Helen and the work you've done before is your body has learned to compensate in such unique ways because you haven't had the bilateral integration and the visual bid line that's been stable and as supportive as it could be.
And as a result, the same thing happened with your visual system.
You were using your eyes independently of each other, different distances.
And you know that's thrown off your visual midline, which then for many people impacts balance and coordination, and even just navigating through space.
I mean we'll see people with your profile who are really hesitant stepping onto an escalator or going up or downstairs because it takes a while to prepare your body to motor plan based off a visual input that you're not really trusting.
And so often somebody with your profile is knocking over a glass of water on the table because they're reaching forward and they're not having vision clearly accurately, direct movement or spatially.
It's hard to organize a room or you can't find your keys because you're always looking for them here here, here and here, but you're not looking for them wide open here.
Bumping into walls?
Oh my gosh.
Bumping into walls or tripping over, you know, a little change in elevation.
Your sense of self and space is fragile.
Well, let's go through those exercises then one by one, right?
Because I really, obviously people can do what they want, right?
So I'm never a fan of telling people what to do with our lives, right?
At the same time, if your interest has been peaked a little bit, I want to make sure people have got some things that they can kind of play around with immediately.
I also want to make something really clear that I had two motivations to come and see you, okay?
One I mentioned already, which was reversing my eyesight.
But one thing that's become very clear to me from chatting to you is that that isn't really your primary goal.
With people right, that may happen as a nice side effect.
And for people like me who are mega motivated to see how far I can go with that great, you can help guide me and you can help me with that.
But even if you ignore that and I stay in glasses and contact lenses for the rest of my life, That's not an issue for you.
You're more concerned with the kind of upstream workings of the visual system.
Is that a fair reflection of your philosophy?
I think that's pretty accurate.
I think so much potential can be unlocked through vision.
And whether you're putting a lens on that's a minus one or a minus five or whatever the number may be sure there's higher risk factors for preventable disease occurring the higher the prescription is.
And sure it's nice to be able to tell that Your wife is actually your wife, because you can see her without the lenses on, compared to just a moving blob in the room.
But what your brain does with the information your eye sends it, how it filters it, processes it, organizes it and then directs the appropriate action.
That is what I look at as my purpose to help really solidify for all of our patients and make it so that you're not limited in life based off of vision.
And, in fact, vision is giving you an advantage and allowing you to find better happiness and consciousness, because you're able to use your brain the way in which it's wired.
So yes, we have people whose prescriptions decrease dramatically.
Yes, we get people out of glasses and contacts all the time.
But really the goal here is how can performance in life be enhanced, optimized and improved?
And any brain at any age has the neuroplastic ability to rewire itself with the right work, with the right motivation, with the right compliance, so that this is possible and doable for anybody.
Yeah, because even if your eyesight didn't improve or you weren't concerned about that right, you know you focus more.
It's gonna improve your memory.
Your energy is gonna improve because when your visual system is not working, you're spending so much energy compensating for that throughout your day where there are high demands on your visual system, right.
And we haven't talked about the mental health component that comes with this.
When productivity is down, energy is down, frustration is up.
I mean, there is such a intimate relationship between anxiety and vision.
I mean, the amount of patients we'll see are driving over a bridge and go into a panic attack because all of a sudden they're aware of what they weren't aware of in the periphery and they become even more locked in or the amount of people who fear heights or don't trust what they see or in an environment with all of this sensory input around all these people around all these lights and colors and they just want to retreat and pull back because they don't feel safe.
I mean we can allow vision to support so much of that in a way where all these labels and all these medications can be eliminated or drastically reduced or altered based off of just finding visual wellness.
Can even impact your relationships, right?
You were saying how you... were falling out with your parents all the time when you were kids.
But if we just follow through the train of thought about the stress that has been put on our visual system every day and many of us don't have the tools and skills to deal with it, we're going to be tired, stressed out frustrated, tense.
Of course, when we finish work and then try and interact with our children, or our partner or our parents or our friends or the People at the supermarket, we're trying to quickly buy our food on the way home.
Your fuse is shorter, you don't have the patience.
Exactly, exactly.
So it really is this massive thing that actually, although I went intense this week, you can actually address quite quickly with some simple things, right?
So you mentioned a few of those daily things that people can do.
So one of them I think was the eye pushup, right?
Yeah, eye pushups for any adult, and we'll go through these in 30 seconds.
If you do this every day, you very likely will not need stronger reading glasses.
You may even be able to get by with weaker reading glasses or not even reach for them as often, because you're going to have better flexibility and stamina with your focusing system.
So let's all do this now.
So we'll talk through it for those who are listening with just audio.
So one eye at a time.
So cover up one eye with your hand.
And then with your other hand, stick your thumb up like you're giving somebody a thumbs up with a straight arm.
And then bring your thumb as close to you as you can nice, and slowly down midline until it gets a little blurry, and then stop and make it clear.
And you're gonna hold clear.
You're gonna think about looking hard, locking in focus, visualizing your pupil getting really small, looking hard at it.
Hold it for five seconds and then look across the room as far out into the distance as you can for five seconds and relax focus, look soft and disengage.
Then back at your thumb for five seconds, back in the distance, for five seconds.
So this is a gross stimulation, relaxation or turning on, turning off of that accommodative system, that focusing muscle inside of the eye.
You want to do it the same amount of time, right eye as left eye.
And doing this, Let's say you did this four or five days a week for two minutes per eye.
If at the end of that week, you got your thumb a millimeter closer.
Millimeters add up to centimeters over time, which add up to inches, which add up to larger distances, and you're able to actually see clearer and hold better awareness of space at a wider range.
The more you do this.
And so many people are gonna notice that, doing this with your right thumb compared to your left thumb, one of your eyes is able to see and focus closer than the other, which you for sure would notice.
And what that means is under two eye conditions.
Because of this binocular rivalry or this competition over sensory input, you have developed a setup where you're focusing one eye closer than the other because it's too hard to focus them both at the same distance.
Something like this literally, if you do this often and regularly, I know it's not the most exciting thing to do and we have very fine-tuned, more advanced ways to do this with the right tech and equipment.
But everyone has a thumb.
Everybody can do this at home, and even doing this at a stoplight or in the bathroom or in between Zoom calls.
This helps build better stamina and flexibility with your focusing system.
Yeah, one of the things that I've learned this week by going deep on all this stuff is just how much movement and flexibility there is in these focusing muscles.
You don't even think about it.
You just go around and you see what you see.
You don't realize that, hey, I've got an element of control here.
I can actually influence this by how hard I contract, how much I relax.
But we recognize that with other muscles, but we don't think about it with our eyes.
We don't.
And I feel like I need to share this.
I was taught in school and every school still teaches this that once presbyopia emerges, which is the age-related changes inside of the eye, which that's a real thing Usually in our 40s your arms are long enough, you're starting to hold things farther away and then all of a sudden, up close is blurry.
Grabbing the over-the-counter readers.
The first chance you get is the equivalent of your knee hurting and jumping into a wheelchair.
You're stopping using the system and the whole.
If you don't use it, you lose it absolutely applies in this setup for vision.
And so even just trying to train focus and hold clarity for five seconds at a time at a close distance, and then six seconds and then, with time, 10 seconds, if done right, you'll see a difference.
My wife on her 42nd birthday All of a sudden blew out the candles and she was like I can't see the back of the medicine bottle.
Sorry.
Luckily she knew the functional eye doc with the secret recipe.
We put her through a specific sequence of vision performance training exercises with her.
It was all at home stuff at first.
She reversed these age-related changes and now has the focusing system of somebody half her age.
And just like she exercises the rest of her body every day, she exercises her focusing muscles to keep this and to maintain it.
Before COVID, we never even attempted to work on this system with adults because it was kind of like well, this isn't supposed to improve at all.
And now I would say in probably 95 of adults and in 100 of the intensives that we've seen, near acuity, near eyesight, improves by doing specific work and the right exercises in the right sequence to actually kick that can down the road where it becomes later that that happens.
And of course, just like with exercise, if you stop doing the work, you're going to regress.
You're not going to stay in great shape if you're not going to the gym.
You're not going to stay with clear, comfortable eyesight at near as we age unless you continue to do the work to counter what goes against us.
What happened to my near acuity this week?
I didn't need reading glasses anyway.
Right.
And that's because, you know, for you, you were purposefully undercorrected.
So you had a little bit more wiggle room there.
Your near eyesight was solid on Monday.
It's also solid today.
However, the difference for you is what we're measuring in terms of what your near prescription would be is literally half today of what it was on Monday.
Half.
And we even talk about it because you're not wearing glasses.
On Monday, you had this clear preference where you're using your right eye for near and your left eye for far, so much so that your brain was actually even shutting off your left eye for near distances and shutting off right eye for far distances.
You've now flipped that so you're able to use each one at each distance.
But you have so much more wiggle room up close to the point where we're talking decades before we're going to even have to worry about an ear.
And as long as we're still buddies and hanging out, you'll not need reading glasses probably ever.
Yeah, it's amazing.
There will be some opticians listening to this conversation, I'm sure, who...
I'll probably think, wow, this is all new.
I can't get my head around that he's got.
He's gone from 2400 to 2070.
2060 vision like maybe a six, seven factor seven fold improvement in my vision.
At all, much less than five days.
In just five days, something that I think no one is taught is doable.
But whatever people think, we've just done it.
I've seen the measurement.
I've experienced it.
This is different.
Right.
And it's happening enough that.
This is not you being a unicorn.
This is, we know what to do now to access the areas of the brain responsible for these changes.
Yeah.
I guess one of the points of this conversation is to show what's possible get people interested in the visual system.
And for some of those professionals who are thinking wait a minute, I just test people, put them in glasses and that's it.
Tell them to come back in 12 months.
I guess that's a tricky scenario for them, because they're working in a certain model that requires them to do certain things.
But even if the eyes just get opened a little bit to go, hmm, what might be possible?
That would still be progress, I think.
Absolutely.
And I would be so grateful if this just had people challenge status quo in the medical space, think about what's possible, but then also start asking themselves why.
Why am I doing what I'm doing?
Why are the changes that I'm noticing occurring?
And if you don't have a clear answer, let's find the answer, right?
And this is the type of thing that I never thought any of this was possible.
And although I knew exactly what we could accomplish and you probably exceeded expectations, it still excites the heck out of me to see these results and see your hard work paying off, because you deserve this.
And you came in ready to roll, like with jetpacks on you saying, let's do this.
Yeah.
I've realized through my work with Helen, but also through my work with this amazing chiropractor who's a functional neurologist.
It's very clear that my eyes might be contributing to some issues I've had with my movement right and what i've learned with helen, in particular because she has this machine.
I told you about this.
I think there were only four in the world.
There's now 10 in the world where they can literally measure what everything in your spine is doing as you walk or run.
So you're seeing what your pelvis is doing, what your hips, what each one of your vertebrae are doing.
It's amazing, right?
And what's really interesting, there's two things that I've done with her.
Specifically that she's done with many of her clients with huge improvements on their movement.
One is convergence divergence.
Now, we did that on steroids this week, right?
I think I have it here.
Well, I did have it.
It's a simple eye chart where you do convergence, you've got all these Bs with a line in between them and you're coming to near vision as much as you can, making sure that there are lines coming out and going all the way back, right.
So bringing your vision in, bringing it out.
Literally, if I do that for one minute, so if I walk or run on her machine, she measures me.
I come off, I do convergence divergence for one minute, then I go back on.
There's better and more organized spinal rotation.
It's measurable.
Nothing changed in how I was trying to move, but by switching on that system in my eyes my movement got better.
The other thing she's found with many of her athletes and me is that when we run and walk while accessing peripheral vision, so not being focused in front of us, having that soft, wide gaze she says, everyone has a more extended open spine, less impact forces, they tend to breathe better and their tracking width starts to widen, which is often better.
And I was just thinking more and more, wow, I'm not doing an exercise.
I'm not doing a glute activation exercise.
I'm not doing this.
I'm not doing that.
I'm just switching on something in my eyes.
And my movement is getting way better.
Does that surprise you?
That is to a T. She knows what she's doing.
She does.
I mean, vision is intended to guide movement.
And the amount of infants we see who have a strabismus or an eye turn, which in almost every case has nothing to do with eye muscle strength or length.
It has to do with coordination of the eyes and a brain problem showing up through the eyes.
In so many cases, that child walked too soon or skipped over crawling.
They didn't get the bilateral integration, the core foundation from which we develop vision from.
For you.
Flipping on the area of the brain that allows for bilateral integration and better spinal and visual synchronation opens up your world.
I know people who literally, when they bite down and have both sides of their teeth touch, they have better strength.
They have better coordination and they have better accuracy with any type of movement pattern.
Or somebody who you know when they're working out, where they're looking, influences their movement patterns so differently.
When we have balance in all areas of our body, especially when our dominant sensory system is guiding that balance, we can function at such a higher level.
And periphery, like you mentioned, is the key to everything.
Accessing periphery and looking soft and taking in the world and getting into less of that sympathetic state for you in particular gives you drastically better accuracy of what's in front of you.
And even say, when you're reading the letters on the eye chart, You were saying well, if I look soft and if I kind of disengage and diverge a little, it becomes clearer.
Yeah.
You're literally taking that locked in system and opening it up.
Because we've been practicing it all week.
You have a switch now that you can actively hit and-
Pretty soon, like probably within the next couple of days, I can envision a text from you saying the switch is always on.
Look, I can do this now.
I mean, that's Well.
I'm not in my home environment, okay?
So I've flown to Washington.
I've come over to Bethesda, where your clinic is.
And this is a foreign and new environment to me anyway.
But I'm excited to when I go home, flying home tonight and tomorrow.
Because I know that my peripheral has been switched on and it's not going off.
And I'm so aware of it now, even in the morning when I go for walks, Even here in Bethesda this morning I went for a walk.
I'm paying attention.
Can I see left?
Can I see rights?
Now, I've got so many rabbit holes I want to go down.
Okay, let's get back to the practical exercises.
You've said a 20-20-20 is a great practice for anyone, okay?
So, after 20 minutes of being on a screen, make sure that you lift your head up and you look at something 20 feet away.
And for at least 20 seconds.
For at least 20 seconds.
And that's 20 minutes max.
Take regular breaks.
I mean, doing it every 10 minutes is even better.
Yeah.
And that's something I want everyone to think about themselves.
And if there's any teachers or head teachers listening and you have your kids on screens at school, please implement this immediately.
Jumping jacks every 20 minutes or getting up and playing musical chairs.
Please, I beg you to implement this immediately, because the impact this is having on kids and their long-term development is huge okay.
So that's number one.
Number two those eye pushups that you took us through are gonna really, really help and will make the fact that Potentially for some people, this idea that you have to have reading glasses once you hit 40 or 45 perhaps that's not true for everyone.
Certainly I don't think it's going to be true for me.
Not for you.
Okay.
So that's the second one.
Third one.
Let's do eye stretches.
Eye stretches.
Which helps calm the nervous system, build flexibility, kind of like yoga for the eyes.
Everything we're talking about.
I'm saying do one eye at a time, because that allows for such quality control.
We can make sure that if somebody has an eye coordination problem or some other visual developmental problem, it's not gonna be made worse by this.
So cover up an eye, look as far up to the ceiling as you can hold it for five seconds.
Don't look too far that you can't hold fixation.
So if your eyes darting around, go a little bit lower, then go down to the floor as you can for five seconds to the left, to the right.
And then the diagonals up and left, up and right, down and left, down and right.
Do it the same amount of time right eye as left eye.
This is a great exercise that a lot of my athletes do before we kind of come up with a pregame routine or ritual for most athletes, or even like before the workday like do this before you're sitting down for your Zoom calls, and great way to just kind of open up the visual system.
And then I think the other really good one to do would be peripheral pointing.
And this is, I mean, we've talked about periphery a dozen times today.
This is really powerful.
Again, one eye at a time.
But you're going to pick something straight ahead across the room and don't look away from it.
So for me, I'm looking at this blue chair across the room.
And then I'm going to pick something with my side vision without moving my eye there.
I'm going to pick this painting on the wall and point to where I think it is.
Then when i think up, when i'm ready, i make the eye movement over and see how close i was.
For me i'm a little bit off, so i'm bringing back down, i'm going to try again and then, when you get it right on the money, go farther out.
But you're going to try going to the left, to the right, up and down.
You're basically actively opening up your periphery and kind of painting in the periphery.
Same thing right eye is with left eye.
You mentioned your walk this morning.
So many people are gonna notice on walks that, and walks are so good for de-stressing the visual system and helping create optic flow which allows better coordination with the eyes.
You're gonna notice.
You see the mailbox to the left, You see the house to the right, but it's really hard to see both of those at the same time without selectively attending.
The more intentional you are with this, you'll be able to see that this kind of concentric ring gets wider and wider and you're able to take in more off to the sides.
But even when you're in the car on a Zoom call at the dinner table, try and see how much you can see without moving your eyes to see.
So trying to take in as much as you can in the room.
And that's a great tool that can help pull you out of a state of fight or flight.
When you're driving in an unfamiliar territory and you're scared.
If you're in a concert or at a sporting event and All of this busy, crowded input in the periphery makes you feel like you want to shut down, This helps you actively open it up.
We see a lot of people with traumatic brain injury and concussion.
About half my practice is devoted to that.
And And that sensory overload that occurs in malls or grocery stores when your brain can't filter and process all that input at once, forces that tunnel vision effect.
This allows you to open it up so much more.
Yeah.
Head injuries are huge, aren't they?
I had a fall when I was two years old.
And I do think a lot of the issues I've had in my life injury issues, visual system issues possibly probably come down to that fall.
I bet if we had a before and after we could clearly identify changes in vision development and function.
Because vision, not eyesight we all know there's a difference there.
There are two different things.
Vision is represented in every lobe of our brain, and there are more areas of our brain dedicated to processing vision than all of the other senses combined.
And more than half of the real estate in the brain is devoted to processing vision.
So you can't have a head injury, minor or major, and not have vision be impacted.
It's just a matter of at what level.
And most people don't realize that a prior injury can be connected or tied to present struggles.
And even if it's been decades, you can use your eyes to rewire the software of your brain to reestablish function and tap into the areas that have either been bypassed or not developed.
Yeah.
I mean, there's so much I want to talk about, but I just want to highlight to people that Guys, in just four to five days I've gone down from 2400 eyesight to 2060 2070 eyesight, with nothing in my eyes and with low powered contact lenses, compared to what I was tested by my optician in the UK just two months ago.
I was seeing better, right?
I was almost at 2020 with these underpowered contact lenses.
So I'm- Actually, can we hit those numbers?
Sure.
So day one, and I just want to make sure we're saying the accurate numbers with your- purposefully under corrected contacts, which I've done on my own accord, which is so cool.
And I want to support the heck out of that.
You were 2050 in the right eye, 2070 in the left eye and 2030 with both eyes.
2030 in the right eye, 2050 in the left eye, and 2025 with half of the line on 2020 with both eyes.
Yeah.
And that's literally by learning the where and understanding how to have that focusing system be more on autofocus rather than on the manual focus that it was on.
Yeah, so guys, this stuff works.
Okay, if you can't get out to see Bryce do those exercises, experiment with them.
Try the ScreenFit program for sure, and get that visual system working.
I mean, I'm just so enjoying this new heightened awareness of the world that I have.
Just to finish off, Bryce, even though there are so many topics we haven't gone into yet.
One of the most exciting things for me is this realization that we don't all have to see the same way.
That just because, however many years ago, someone decided that standard vision should be that line in the assessment room so that you can have 20-20 vision.
Eyesight.
A 20-20 eyesight.
Who says that's right for everyone?
And actually one thing I've learned this week Bryce, is that even through some of these exercises, when your eyes aren't working together, you see different things.
And when you get them working together, what you see is different.
And it actually gave me a really deep insight about the world, which is we all see the world differently, right?
Even I am not seeing the world the same as I was a few days ago, because my visual system is working differently and working better.
So, in terms of being more forgiving and compassionate and empathetic with the world around us, this kind of understanding that Everyone out there is seeing different things.
We're in the same room, right?
There are the same physical objects in here, but we're all seeing them differently.
I think that's really humbling and to me quite inspiring actually.
I love that.
And our perception of the same situation is entirely different depending on the person we are, the life experiences we've had and how we're able to take in and process space.
And I agree, no two people see the same, which means not everybody needs to see the same.
And we need to find the right balance that allows us to use our eyes together as a team, but so that our eyes and brain can work together seamlessly.
And when we're putting our vision first, I mean we can literally unlock so much of our potential and avoid so much unnecessary struggling where these problems are everywhere, if you know what to look for.
Bryce, I just want to say a big thank you.
I have a sneaky suspicion that many people are going to be hearing a lot about you over the next few years.
I think what you're doing is game-changing.
You've had a profound impact on me in just five days.
Honestly, I can't tell you how excited I am about the next few weeks and months and what I can go on to do following what I've learned.
So on a personal note, a big thank you.
I know from talking to a lot of the patients in your clinic over the week how many people you're helping, okay.
How many children you're helping, how many adults you're helping.
We've not even talked about stroke patients yet and people who can't even see light and dark, and how you guys are helping them start to get that differentiation okay.
It is amazing what you and your team are teaching people to do.
It's been a real pleasure getting to know you this week.
And we're absolutely going to have to do a part two on this show very, very soon.
Thank you so much.
I would absolutely love to.
It has been such an honor and such a privilege to get to know you and to be able to help guide you to a place where life is so much more enjoyable and so different.
Your ability to share your story I am so grateful for because I know there are people listening, who their lives are changed just by knowing what's possible and having hope.
And without hope, it's really hard to accomplish what we all deserve.
So just thank you so much for- for the opportunity to connect and to be able to work together.
Really hope you enjoyed that conversation.
As always, have a think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life, but also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else.
Remember, when you teach someone else, it not only helps them, It also helps you learn and retain the information.
In just 10 minutes a day, he has very kindly agreed to give my listeners a huge discount.
Just go to screenfit.com forward slash live more to get an incredible $200 off.
That's screenfit.com forward slash live more.
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