How to Set & Achieve Massive Goals | Alex Honnold | Huberman Lab

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

My guest today is Alex Honnold. Alex Honnold is a professional rock climber.

He's best known for successfully free soloing, meaning climbing with no ropes or latching on of any kind.

El Capitan, also called El Cap, which is a nearly 3000 foot climb in Yosemite National Park.

It was also of course the topic and focus of the incredible movie, Free Solo, which if you haven't seen, you absolutely should watch.

I've wanted to talk to Alex for a long time now.

I'm not a rock climber. I've tried it a few times, but I've been extremely curious to understand Alex's mental frame around learning and training and his broader philosophy on life.

My interest stems from the fact that Alex's free solo of El Cap and his other climbs make him one of the most accomplished and innovative athletes in all of history.

And of course, the free solo of El Cap is extremely high risk and high consequence.

Today, we discuss how to envision and make progress towards your goals and how to merge the demands of daily work and family life with incremental training for spectacularly big or long challenges of any kind.

Alex makes clear that it's essential and possible to build your capacity to exert effort and how to do that in a regimented way so as to bring seemingly impossible goals within your reach.

We also discuss how coming to terms with one's own mortality is actually one of the best motivators for building a great life. and why most people hide from that reality.

And as a result, end up living much smaller lives than they otherwise would.

We also discussed training, literally what to do to build strength and endurance, not just for sake of rock climbing, but just generally.

And that takes us into discussions about weight training, body weight training, running, hiking, and a bunch of other things that you can apply.

Even if you have zero interest in rock climbing, today's conversation with Alex Honnold will definitely change the way that you think about your life, what you can make of it, and how to go about that.

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

And now for my discussion. with Alex Honnold.

Alex Honnold, welcome. Thanks for having me.

I think Free Solo is remarkable for a ton of reasons, but As a good friend of mine, who I think you know, Michael Muller, photographer, he said, before I'd seen the film, he said, it's wild because you're terrified as an observer the entire time. but you also know that Alex survives from the very beginning, which is a very unusual.

I think some people don't know that. They watch the movie and they literally have no idea what it's about or what's going on.

And they spend the whole movie being like, oh my God, what's going to happen?

Okay. So I just spoiled it. Well, at this point I'm like, nobody cares.

It's old news. Well, it's a spectacular feat.

And we can go into that feat, but I'd actually like to drill in a little bit to just your process in general.

I'm sure that's changed over time and feel free to talk about that, but you know, I'm very curious about notions of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation, right?

And I think Free Solo was also remarkable because you had cameras on you.

It was obviously to be recorded and you knew you had cameras on you.

And yet I always thought of climbing as kind of a solitary sport. or things that people do in small groups, kind of off the grid.

Things have changed now with social media, the way everything can be posted very quickly or even run live.

But when you think about sort of the work that you're doing in terms of progressing and goals and kind of milestones for yourself.

How do you envision that? Do you have a diary?

Do you have a process where you sit back and you think, you know, what would be awesome? for me to experience?

Would people like to see it? What's the sort of balance between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation for you?

So basically, I think climbing is always intrinsically motivated.

I mean, since I started climbing when I was a child, I've always loved climbing.

I love the movement of climbing. I love the feeling of it.

I love the whole experience. You know, just everything about it's great.

But then, you know, now as a professional climber, obviously there is that extrinsic motivation as well where you're like, oh, this is how I make a living.

And so I think with the film Free Solo, you know, it was a really interesting balance of the two where it's like, this is something that I'd love to do for myself.

And even if no one else in the world existed, I'd want to do this thing.

But then you also know that if the film turns out well, which it did, you know, it's going to be great for your career.

It's going to be great for whatever. And so like there is that extrinsic motivation as well.

And so then you're always trying to parse out like which part is which and, you know, because you don't, particularly with freestyling, you don't want to be too extrinsically motivated because you don't want to get pushed into something that you're not prepared for that you shouldn't be doing.

Of course, even being instinctively motivated, you can do something you shouldn't.

I don't know. But you're just constantly thinking about those things as a climber.

In order to free solo El Cap, did you memorize sequences or is it more sort of like motifs where you kind of know that, You're going to do any number of different things in a given pitch.

It depends. So for the hardest parts, I memorized, like for sure, memorized every aspect of it.

But that's only the hardest part. So that's maybe like a third of the route.

And then for the easiest third, and some of it is actually quite easy.

Some of it's like even a non-climber could climb. small sections of the wall.

Like there are parts that are quite easy here and there.

You know, it's like... Not the bulk, but so for the easy parts, you just know that you can do it and you don't have to stress it.

And then the medium part's kind of like the remaining third of the wall. you sort of remember, kind of like you said, motifs.

You might know the hardest part, and you just kind of know that it's going to be fine, but you don't have to memorize it, per se.

But certainly I knew the route very, very well.

You just know all the things you have to know.

You recognize not just holds, but like visceral sensations, like this feels different.

Because I imagine conditions change, right?

I mean, weather conditions, heat on the rock, shadows on the rock.

Yeah, but not as much as you might think because I was only climbing it in shade.

In the springtime, that whole... west side of the wall stays in the shade until 11 or noonish in the morning.

So you go at four in the morning and then you have sort of eight hours of solid shade.

So normally the temperature and the conditions feel relatively stable.

And you spend the whole season working on it, so you kind of know that tomorrow is going to feel the same as it did today roughly.

It's all within a relatively narrow band, particularly in the spring, which is why I did it in the springtime.

In the fall and the autumn, it's a little bit different because the sun is lower in the sky.

So it gets sun much earlier and it actually is way hotter counterintuitively.

It's like colder when it's in the shade, but then hotter when it's in the sun.

Anyway, that makes it harder for climbing, obviously.

But when I freestyled El Cap, I was spending three or four months a year in Yosemite every year, like... you know, a month or two every spring and every autumn.

And so you're spending four months a year in a place.

You just know how it feels. You know, it's like you're used to getting up that early.

You're used to climbing on the wall and you're just kind of like, oh, it's...

It's going to be another beautiful day on the rock.

And actually, the day that I did the free solo Velcap, it was actually a little more humid and a little warmer than would have been optimal.

It's not what I would have chosen. But that's just the way it was that day.

And I was kind of like, well, this is my day.

You kind of just have to do the thing. but it had been like overcast that night.

And you know, when it's cloudy at night, the lows don't drop as low.

And so I woke up and it was like kind of muggy ish feeling.

I was like, it's not, it's not great for being four in the morning.

It was like, it feels kind of gross. But I was like, this is my day and it was fun.

So you form a relationship with The Rock.

You kind of like learn to recognize. It's different states.

When you did it and completed it, because I know you set out one day and then you called it off.

Yeah, that was in the autumn. That was the season before.

And basically the season was ending, like the storms were coming in the next week type deal, and it was like the season was winding down.

It was kind of like, well, I should at least take a shot because I'd done a lot of prep and I felt – mostly ready and it turns out I just wasn't ready ready and so so I wound up bailing but that was kind of my end of the season like I think I can squeak this in knowing that if I couldn't squeak it in then then I'd have to wait six more months and with the pressure the film crew and all that stuff knowing that there are all these people like working and waiting for you you're kind of like well I

I'd at least try to get this done. It's like all these people are waiting on me.

But as it turns out, I just didn't quite have it yet.

And then, When I ultimately did do it in the spring, I was much better prepared, felt way better.

The whole experience worked out better. Now, in retrospect, I'm like, oh, I'm glad that it played out that way because it was better.

But at the time, it was... I was like, oh, God, I failed on this thing.

All these people are watching. It's embarrassing.

It was all very stressful at the time. yeah the external pressures have to be you know pretty pretty mighty when yeah when especially when they're your friends I guess one could imagine like when it's Just business.

You can just be like, well, it's just business.

But yeah, you had a lot of friends up there with you.

For me, the thing is, is that if I'm going to go climb the wall, you know, I start climbing at 430 in the morning or five or something.

So that means some of my friends to get in position at the top of the wall are getting up at like one in the morning and then hiking to the top of a mountain with a heavy backpack.

And if you're asking a bunch of your buddies to go hiking at 1 in the morning, you better live up to your end of the thing.

If you say you're going to do something, you better actually do the thing.

Obviously, no one's complaining. No one is pressuring me.

But at the same time, you don't want to bail.

It's pretty embarrassing if you tell someone you're going to do something and they just can't do it.

They certainly wanted the outcome to be only one way.

Yeah, and they were all super positive and supportive, and it's all great, but you still can't help but feel that pressure.

Sure. Well, it certainly worked out. I'm curious, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being total certainty, along that trajectory when you completed it, Were there any phases where you felt you had to improvise against the original plan?

You mean on the day of the actual solo? On the day of the actual completion of the free solo.

No, on the day, I was 100%. Everything was perfect.

I knew exactly what to do. It was all amazing.

But it took a really long time to get there.

It's like literally years of building up to it and then months of preparation and everything.

But no, on the day, it was perfect. I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor Juve.

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When you climb, I'm curious where your mental horizon is.

I can make up a story as a non-climber that your mental horizon is always on just the next the next maneuver, just getting further up and further over.

Sometimes, of course, you have to go down and up.

But that you're sort of time binning and your space spinning is very, very close.

But do you ever go into states where you're sort of in automaticity?

I mean, we hear about flow, right? But where you find yourself kind of maneuvering as opposed to being hyper strategic about what's happening in the next five seconds, 10 seconds.

Well, I think the aspiration is to be in that, you know, flow state, whatever you want to call it.

But, um, Actually, I think even in the film, there's some quotes from me saying autopilot and things like I'm aspiring to be on autopilot.

So I'm aspiring to not be thinking too much about it.

And that's, for me at least, why it required so much practice was to be able to just do something almost by rote, you know, through repetition, just to do the thing that you've practiced. without having to think about it.

Because I think once you start thinking about it too much, you're just more prone to not just make errors, but just get too... get caught up in your own mind and... I don't know.

I mean, the aspiration was just to do the thing.

Like, no thinking about it, no hesitation, you know, no emotional... you know, affect around it to just do it.

Is the kinesthetic aspect of it big? In other words, are you feeling your way through it as well as using vision?

I mean, I imagine that these things start to blend.

Yeah, I've actually never been asked something quite like that.

I mean, the kinesthetic aspect is maybe the whole thing.

I mean, it is kind of like dancing or something where you are just flowing over stone.

I mean, obviously you're looking around and you're looking at your footholds and you're sort of placing your feet correctly that way.

But really, you're just doing sequences.

You're just flowing. Your body is moving.

I think when you climb well, and particularly when you've rehearsed something and you know the climb really well, It feels like jogging or swimming or sort of other elemental movement patterns where it's just like your body doing what it's meant to do.

And it feels great. You know, it's like it's really nice.

Do you ever surprise yourself still? Like that in training things, you know, I'm surprised that worked out.

And then stick with that kinesthetic sense.

I've been listening to an amazing book by Twyla Tharp.

She's a choreographer. She was a ballerina. choreographer.

And she said that what distinguishes, you know, virtuosity from mastery is that when you start to surprise yourself, I think you're certainly in that category of virtuoso.

Um, how often does surprise come about? For me personally, that's maybe my favorite moment in climbing is when you surprise yourself.

And this isn't so much with free-soling, because with free-soling, you don't want to be surprised.

But with a rope on... You have moments all the time where you're sure you're about to fall because you're up against your physical limits or whatever, and then you stick a move that you were sure you weren't going to.

And, you know, it doesn't happen that often, but when it does, you're like, oh, I exceeded my own expectations.

It's like the best feeling, you know. It happens from time to time.

In some ways, actually, I was telling one of my friends, I think that that might be one of the ways in which I see aging.

As I'm getting older as a climber, I think I surprise myself less often.

I think as a 24-year-old, you just don't know your own limitations that much and you frequently surprised herself where I'm like wow I really outdid myself I really did something that I was sure I couldn't do but I managed to do it and now as a recent 40 year old You know, like that happens from time to time for sure, but not all the time.

You know, it's like and now occasionally I have things where I was like, oh, I was sure I could do that.

And then I failed, you know, and you're kind of like, oh, you can blame conditions, you can blame whatever.

But you're kind of like, oh, I really thought I would do that.

And I fell off anyway. And you're like, damn it.

What is the role of aging and climbing traditionally and how you're experiencing it?

Like there are fields of science like mathematics where the stereotype is you know, it's a young person's game.

And then there are fields like biology, which is a bit more incremental and people can have fantastic discoveries and long careers.

Those are academic cerebral endeavors. But, you know, we have our understanding of this for every sport.

For climbing, what's the lore for climbing and for free soloists in particular, that it's an old man's game, it's a young man's game?

Woman's game, excuse me. I don't think anybody calls free soloing an old man's game.

But no, but... It could be, but no, I think in general, climbing has more longevity than most sports just because it's relatively low impact on your body.

It's very technique and like movement focused.

And so it's not just pure physical strength.

That said, I mean, climbing is in the Olympics now and the people winning the Olympics are all sort of 18 to 23 ish, you know, sort of same as gymnastics type of range.

Um, So I think at the most elite levels of climbing performance, it's kind of similar to gymnastics probably.

But then to do interesting new things on real rock outdoors, i think there's a much wider latitude you know it's like and then even into your 50s and 60s there are plenty of climbers who are leading expeditions to new places, developing new climbs, you know, doing things that are noteworthy and sort of meaningful for the climbing community, even though they're not necessarily cutting edge physically.

So I think there's a lot of a lot of opportunity for climbing, more than most sports.

And I think actually the other big thing with climbing is that in so many other sports, like I think ball sports, NBA, NFL, baseball, whatever, It's kind of like if you don't make the team, then you're done playing forever.

Like you'll literally never play football again if you're not a professional football player.

Whereas with climbing, even if you're not playing at the highest level, you can still go climb all the time, and you can still do cool climbs, you can still do things that matter, you can help teach, you can do whatever.

And so you can kind of like stay in the game much, much longer.

You mentioned that climbing's in the Olympics now.

We see a lot of sports like skateboarding and climbing now in the Olympics.

And these were sports that traditionally were done, you know, people just. go to where these things were done and it wasn't always recorded because there wasn't social media back then.

Well, more that there weren't smartphones, there weren't cameras, you know, it's like, it's not even about the social, it's about the, whether or not you can record it easily.

So I'm guessing there's a big influx of young kids getting into this now. do you see the sport progressing faster?

And I'm also curious about the culture, whether or not, like any time a sport is in the Olympics, The thing is like, oh, it's kind of quote unquote sold out.

Now it's going to change. It's going to become more commercial.

So what's the culture within climbing about this big expansion?

What are your thoughts? I mean, personally, I'm way into it.

I mean, I was a kid that got into climbing, into climbing gym, and it's changed my life for the better.

You know, like, I love climbing. I think it's great.

I can certainly see the sort of commercial influx from the Olympics, or sort of like more mainstream adoption of climbing.

But that's kind of great because I mean, most of my friends are sort of climbing industry adjacent professionals in some ways, you know, like they make They're like coaches or dietitians or setters.

They make the climbs that people climb on.

And so basically the bigger the industry gets, the more people like that can make a living doing the thing that they love to do, even if they're not necessarily sponsored professionals at the highest level.

So I'm kind of like, you know, a broadening industry is kind of good for everybody.

And mostly, I mean, climbing is awesome.

Like if people enjoy, you know, it's like, why not get into climbing?

It's like certainly. I mean, I think it's better than most other fitness modalities.

It's like, oh, why do CrossFit when you can go rock climbing?

It's way cooler. I mean, it certainly seems way more fun.

That's for sure. And you can do indoors or outdoors.

There are probably certain aspects you wouldn't want to do alone for safety reasons, but I think when people ask, like, what do you worry about with climbing culture and all that kind of stuff, like with the Olympics and the... the mainstream appeal, kind of like, you know, if somebody wants to be a climber and only go to the climbing gym in a major city for their entire life like that's great like if they just want to climb plastic the rest of their life that's still better than going to CrossFit or doing whatever else I'm like that's cool Like you don't have to go climb El Cap to be a climber.

I'm kind of like people who can do whatever they want.

And I think that's great for the sport. And you are seeing standards rise. very quickly right now sort of as a result.

Just like better access to gyms, more kids getting into it.

You just see talent rise faster. I come across social media accounts of parkour kids every once in a while doing absolutely insane stuff in urban terrains usually.

What's the crossover, if any, between parkour and climbing of the sort that you do?

There's a little bit, not that much, but climbers often, like competition climbing, like bouldering, which is in the Olympics, has...

Definitely taking a slight turn towards parkourish sorts of moves like big running jumps and like crazy swings and things like that. and so some old school climbers complain that it's like gotten a little too jumpy, that type of bouldering.

Um, But I'm kind of into it. I mean, it's I don't know.

This is all very like inside baseball. Like, how do you separate like basically the highest level competitors are all very, very strong.

So then how do you separate? these different competitors who are all climbing at an elite level.

And one of the ways is complicated movement like that, like running jumps and coordination and things like that.

So I think it's cool. I've actually met a couple of professional parkour athletes who also climb.

And they are really good at very particular sorts of things.

I mean, it's amazing to see. Yeah. I mean, I find a lot of what they do terrifying, but also awesome.

I can't help myself, but watch and just the motivation to work it out too.

Like, you know, because. Some of these are truly make or break or make or die. at least in the form they put to social media.

So I'm always curious, like, what goes into that.

And, you know, having grown up skateboarding, I mean, you go around a city and you see stuff, you know, like, oh, that would be awesome.

And so... I mean, just looking at a landscape natural or urban landscape in a completely different way I see a lot of parallels with climbing.

And also, you know, I think of you at, you know, certainly at the level and kind of parallel with a guy like Tony Hawk, who's been in the sport of skateboarding for a very long time. amazing ambassador for the sport as it's gone through its various like, you know, peaks and valleys now in the Olympics.

So I think climbing and sports like skateboarding and surfing have a lot in common in this way, subculture, but then also gets popular.

Yeah, where they're kind of niche and then they become kind of mainstream.

But then even once they're mainstream, they're still kind of cool, you know, like skateboarding.

It's like definitely not like full punk rock anymore, but you're like, it's pretty cool, you know, like skateboarding still. and it's not that common still, you know, and that's the thing with climbing is I'm kind of like, yeah, climbing is growing.

It's becoming more mainstream. It's just never going to be soccer or something.

You know what I mean? Like, It's always going to be slightly niche, slightly countercultural because it's just, you know, it's just a smaller thing.

Like it's just not playing basketball or something.

Yeah, I'm intrigued by the training aspects and some of the fitness aspects.

I agree that it I'm having only done it a little bit.

I mean, I've been to a climbing gym once or twice.

I've gone up and down the wall a few times.

I've belayed for people a few times, but I haven't by no means, you know, uh skilled at it it'd be fun to to get into because i happy birthday by the way i just turned 40. i'm turning uh 50 soon and um i think more about um I'm happy with my strength and endurance, but I think more about mobility now.

And also climbing is great for that. And, and there's a lot of interesting literature on brain longevity and and just maintaining your cognition and the strength of your distal body.

So toes and fingers, believe it or not. It's a correlate.

Yeah, isn't that – I've always thought that's just a correlation thing.

It's just a correlation. Because grip strength is just a proxy for all – it means that you use your body a lot, and so therefore you're probably –

When I read those things about if you have strong grip, it means this and this and this.

I'm like, no, if you have a strong grip, it means that you do stuff all the time.

And so as a result of doing stuff all the time, you're probably sharper than somebody who doesn't do stuff all the time.

That's right. So it's a correlate. At the same time, the motor neurons that control like trunk movements and contraction of the trunk muscles, like as you go out from the midline, They're in layers in the spinal cord, so they're literally like the motor neurons that control the core.

Sit closer to in the spinal cord to the midline.

And then, you know, across evolution, like, we evolved from animals with fins and wings and some of the same genes are used.

And eventually you get motor neurons that control like fine motor movements like this.

And it is true that for some reason, the motor neurons that control the distal body, so toes and fingers, calves and forearms, are more vulnerable to age-related degeneration than the ones for the core.

So it is possible, we don't know yet, that by maintaining strength of the distal body, that you can actually preserve motor neuron and cognitive function.

And that's why I was curious how climbers, provided they don't fall and kill themselves, how they age.

And there's other things here too, because like in some sports, like football and rugby, people are getting their head hit a lot. you don't tend to age well, but I always thought of climbers, you know, in my time up in Yosemite, I'd see young guys like you.

And then I'd see these like old, like these old climbers.

And I was like, man, these guys are in incredible shape.

They're lean, they're live, they seem cognitively fresh.

So it seems like it's a sport where people hold on to their faculties pretty well.

Yeah, I think so. You know, it's hard to say because there just aren't that many super old climbers.

And then a lot of the ones that come to mind, like sort of famous old climbers, you know, I mean, they dive. the same ways that everybody does, you know, like cancer or heart disease or whatever, but like in their late eighties or whatever.

Hmm. No, I mean, I think climbing is a great way to age.

I mean, I have a bunch of friends who are sort of 50s and 60s who are very fit.

Actually, it comes to mind, there's this friend of mine who's a philosophy professor at UNLV at the university, but he's... incredibly jacked and i think he's 64 now i think he just became the oldest person to climb a certain grade like 514 which is like kind of an elite rock climbing grade but i think he's maybe the oldest person to have done that now But he once told me in San Diego that he was at some hotel pool like in middle America at like some conference or something and some kid asked if he could touch his abs because he'd never seen He was like, are they real?

You know, like real, because he's like, yeah, he's like a 48 year old professor.

He's like shredded. And some kid in the pool is like, can I touch those?

Is that real? You know, like I've never seen a thing like that.

It says a lot about him and about the state of our country right now.

We are in this crisis of obesity. That's very serious.

It goes beyond aesthetics. Yeah, I've thought about getting into climbing.

I mean, it's... The problem I had is I tried to just raw strength it.

I just tried to pull up my way. A lot of people do that.

Obviously, that's foolish and you gas out really fast.

Yeah, that's a very common thing for adults.

I mean, especially men, especially somebody like you who's already fit.

And so you try to bring the tool you already have to it.

And you're like, no, you got to drive with your legs, go technique, mobility.

I like to say that anybody that tries climbing should think of it as climbing a really, really steep staircase where it's like you're still walking up the stairs and you're using the handrail for balance. but you're not pulling yourself up the handrail.

And most of climbing is basically a steep staircase. you know, I mean, especially outdoors and in climbing gyms is a little bit different because the wall is actually vertical, but outdoors, the wall is almost always a little bit less than vertical.

So it's like basically you're on a very, very steep and technical staircase and then you're using the handrail like the handholds to keep you balanced on the wall.

But your legs should always be driving you.

I still haven't done Half Dome. Never? You've done Clouds Rest a bunch?

No, I've done Clouds Rest a bunch of times.

Run Clouds Rest, rock Clouds Rest. But...

Half Dome has those cables. Yeah, yeah. I never was organized enough to do the sign up early enough.

No, but just do it after the permits. You know the cables stay up all year.

So when it's out of season, they take the uprights down, but the cables just sit there, and you can do it any time.

It's actually way better to do it post, like after the season, because there's no permitting, there are no people, and it's like super chill.

Okay, I definitely want to do it. Yeah, just do it off-season.

It's way better. My biggest concern is not that I'm going to fall.

It's that someone above me is going to fall.

But you're strong enough to just glance them off, you know, just like shrug them aside.

Possibly. Or ideally stop them. Yeah, ideally stop them.

Yeah, I'd love to do that. I've been going to Yosemite since I was in my teens.

I love it up there. I wouldn't say it's my second home, but it's heaven.

I mean, as you know. actually one of the reasons I'm excited to talk to you among others is that I would like more people to get into the national parks, um, and, and really enjoy them because they're,

We have so many gems, and Yosemite, the high country in Tuolumne Meadows, to me, is like, is heaven on earth.

No, Yosemite, I mean, is a crown jewel. I mean, I think it's the best national park in the country.

Yeah, people forget it's only about a four hour drive from the Bay Area or from Los Angeles.

It's pretty quick. You go through a bunch of different landscapes and then boom, suddenly you're there.

Yeah, and it's like paradise. It's incredible.

I'm curious about things in free soloing that, as an uninformed spectator, we think, you know, that's the hardest part, that's the most difficult thing.

I imagine inside of the sport, like any, that there are things that are very difficult and maybe even perilous that we're not aware of.

Like, what's some of the non-obvious aspects of free soloing, if they exist?

Because I always think, okay, you know, if...

I can imagine, oh, that's super tough, but that might be the easier or less tough.

Usually they're these kind of a hidden, I don't want to call them hidden dangers, but hidden dangers. in a sport?

What are some things that the observer wouldn't be aware of?

Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the hidden dangers are.

I would say, though, that the obvious visual dangers, like for a non-climber just watching free-souling, I think they generally misperceive all the dangers and risks involved.

They just see it and they're like, that's crazy, that's whatever.

And whatever they're bringing to it is probably not the actual case. just because it's hard to visually tell what's challenging in climbing.

You're like, that's a vertical wall. But if it's like a nice crack going over a vertical wall, that's actually quite easy and secure climbing.

But then some of the other stuff, the really small holds or trusting your feet, I don't know.

It's just really hard to judge that stuff visually.

You have to do it to experience it. But I think that that honestly the whole perception of risk around free-soling is maybe slightly misperceived by people.

So with climbing in general, like if you go climbing with a rope, Uh, like if you're traditional climbing, like you're climbing with a rope and gear and you're going to climb half dome, let's say when you start climbing from the ground, you go some distance before you put your first piece of gear in. because that's just kind of the nature of climbing.

You go for ways and you put in some gear, you clip your rope into it, and then you're protected. for whatever distance you're going, you're essentially free soloing to that point.

There's always risk involved in climbing because even if you have a rope on, depending on how far you're going above your last piece of gear and what the terrain is like and whether or not the rock is good and all these other factors. you're more or less safe.

And so I think people look at free-soling as like this binary, like if you don't have a rope, that's dangerous.

And you're kind of like, well, Anytime you're climbing, there are dangers, or there could be, and you're constantly evaluating those and trying to mitigate them.

So I think that's the big misperception because easy free-souling is probably – like if I'm – somebody you know who's like an expert rock climber whatever i've been climbing 30 years if i'm on an easy free solo that's almost certainly safer than a very hard certain types of hard climbing with a rope on And most of my scariest experiences as a climber actually have been with a rope on.

Because with a rope, you're much more willing to push yourself into unknown terrain.

Because you're kind of like, surely there'll be something good just around the corner.

And so you keep going around the corner and you keep not getting the good gear and you're like, holy shit, it's getting scarier and scarier.

Are we allowed to curse? Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So... Even at each other, if you want to curse at me.

Yeah, perfect. But so a lot of my scariest experiences have been with a rope on because...

You're kind of like, I'm sure it'll get better.

I'm sure it'll get better. And it keeps getting worse and worse.

And then pretty soon, you're in some position where you're definitely going to die if you fall.

But you never would have climbed into that position if you didn't have a rope on. because you're just so much more conservative when you're ropeless.

And when you're ropeless, you're kind of like if something seems wrong, you just go down, you know, because you're just not going to push that far.

I saw the movie Maru. That was pretty intense.

I mean, that's an example of pushing really freaking far with a rope on you.

It's like because you have a rope, you're willing to just keep pushing into the unknown.

But then you wind up in a position where you're like, this is pretty freaking extreme.

You saw the film, it's all totally insane.

Yeah, it is insane. And I feel like ice and snow bring a whole other dimension.

Yeah, I think that in your sport, in free soloing, the idea from the spectator side is you know, like these guys, like one fall and they're dead.

I've heard you say before, that's actually not true.

I mean, yeah, it's kind of, you don't want to fall, but yeah, like, yeah, it's true that most places, if you fall off, you're going to die.

But like when I started free selling as, as a, as a kid not that I like started and then only did that but on my first free solos when I was young in the back of my mind it would be like if you slip you'll die you know and the reality is that there are tons of places where your foot can slip And nothing else moves, you know, like your hands are locked on, you're holding on tight and your foot slipped and you're just kind of like, oh, my foot slipped and you keep climbing.

It's no big deal. I mean, there are also some places where if you foot slips, you're going to die for sure.

And the key is differentiating between those.

But I think when I started, you know, it was like, if anything happens, you'll die.

And as you do it more, you're actually like, no, I mean, a lot of things can happen and it'll be fine.

You just have to make sure that the wrong thing doesn't happen at the wrong time.

I was surprised to hear you say that, yes, free soloists die, but oftentimes they die not free soloing.

They die doing other things. I'm fascinated by this, not through a morbid fascination, but for a number of reasons.

So maybe you could elaborate on that a little.

Yeah, there's a quote in the film Free Solo where a friend of mine, Tommy Caldwell, who's a very well-known climber, said something like, all the people who were big free solos are dead now.

And it kind of implies like, you know, free soloing is dangerous and they all died soloing.

But the reality is that basically none of them died soloing.

Like one or two soloists have died soloing.

Though my preferred statistic is that no one has ever died doing something cutting edge.

So like no one has ever died pushing the envelope, like doing something extreme.

There have been a couple of free solos who have died free soloing easy terrain, like just out doing something casual and Maybe a hold breaks or maybe something happens.

It's impossible to know what because they die.

But then... The bulk of other people who are sort of known for free-souling have died either in parachuting accidents like wingsuiting or base jumping.

Or one got swept out to sea by a rogue wave.

It's kind of a freak thing. One died in a car accident.

It's basically just ways that people die.

So all that I say, it's not clear that free-souling is the most dangerous.

We have a friend... who unfortunately is dead now, Ken Block, who is a famous rally car driver. did with our photographer here at the podcast, Mike Blayback, and film crews with DC.

He was one of the founders of DC, like DC Shoes, DC Skateboarding, et cetera, rally car.

Unfortunately, he died in a snowmobiling accident.

So something very like kind of conventional for his daily life.

He lived out in Utah. You know, obviously a huge tragedy.

And then you go look at kind of people who do quote unquote extreme sports, for lack of a better term.

And you find that it's fairly common for people who are at the peak of their of a field of a sport to die doing something else that they really enjoy.

And you kind of wonder, like, are they pushing themselves or is it that they're just a little too relaxed because as you said rarely do free soloists die like in the most difficult aspects of the climb.

So maybe it's that letting go of the mental engagement.

Like there's a change in the threshold of what they consider dangerous.

So unless they need to be locked in, There's just some lack of attention to detail.

This is my way of trying to save your life, basically.

Anything you're doing besides resoloing, be very, very careful.

Rain it in. Yeah, we need you. I also would suspect that all the people that we're talking about are all just a little – they're just bigger risk-takers in general.

They're just more willing to do things like drive quickly and do whatever. just more willing to take risk in their life.

And I suppose sooner or later those things catch up with you.

Or they can. Though that said, with free-souling...

Two of the world's best free soloists from the previous generations are still alive, you know, older men just living their best lives, doing their thing.

Still free soloing. Yeah, maybe not at like a super high level, maybe not pushing themselves hard, but yeah, like certainly could.

So a man named Peter Croft, he's a Canadian, but has lived in the U.S. forever.

He was like my childhood hero growing up, and he's an incredible soloist.

Actually, there's a scene with him in the film Free Solo.

He's kind of like a... They kind of frame him as like a mentor figure, though, honestly, he wasn't a mentor because I was too afraid to ever even talk to him because he was like such a personal hero.

But I mean, he's such a he's incredible.

He's super nice guy. And so we're both sponsored by the North Face now.

So we're friends. We're on the same team.

And so I've hung out with him at events and things.

I was having dinner with him once. I was kind of like, oh, at what point did you kind of end the cutting edge free-souling?

And he was like, oh, actually... I did a couple of my hardest solos in terms of grades, not necessarily the most cutting edge, but kind of the hardest grades within the last several years.

And I was like, really? And he's still just kind of doing stuff and fit and he's psyched.

And he's got to be – I don't know, I don't want to offend him, but he's got to be like mid-50s or like maybe 60.

He's awesome. Yeah, and he's still incredible.

He's still climbing all the time. And even on his rest days, he goes down into the same climbing areas to hang out with his friends and chit-chat and take his dog to the cliff and stuff.

So, you know, I look at somebody like him who's basically made an entire life of free-souling.

I'm kind of like, you know, if you do it carefully, you know, make good decisions.

I don't think it has to be sketchy. How awesome is it that you're friends and coworkers with one of your childhood heroes?

Oh, that's the best. That's actually, I think, one of the best things about being a professional climber is so many of the people that I was that I looked up to as a kid, you know, and our friends and peers and things, and you're like, oh, it's so great.

Yeah. Yeah. You get to like hang out with your heroes and you're like, yeah, no, it's amazing. there's some young, Kid out there now thinking the same.

It's like, I'm too afraid to go up to Alex and say hello.

Uh, and, uh, they should just say hello.

Yeah. Right. Yeah, totally. I mean, in the same way that I was like so afraid to ever talk to Peter when I was young.

And then ultimately now he's just another nice guy and we're friends.

We climb together. It's great. Sort of like, yeah, anybody should just say hi.

It's like if we're at the cliff, come chat.

It's like we're all doing the same thing.

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Do most climbers, as they're coming up, if they have aspirations to be great free soloists or other types of climbers, do they tend to work and do other things?

Or is this like all in? It's lifestyle. You live in a van.

I mean, you can do that also after achieving some degree of financial success.

We know you've done that. We can talk about that.

But Is it the kind of thing where you have to give up other aspects of life in order to get really, really good at it?

That's an interesting question. I'm not totally sure because in some ways though, it depends what you mean by achieving success as a climber because if you're trying to climb the hardest grades or go to the Olympics or things like that,

In some ways, you're almost better off being a university student or something, like having a structured schedule that in some ways limits the amount that you can climb.

Because I don't know enough about other sports, but I suspect this is akin to power lifting or something.

Whereas if you're trying to be really, really strong, you kind of only need to do a little bit every couple days. and then recover.

And so for a sort of elite physical training for climbing, you really only need, you know, say three or four hour sessions, four or five days a week And then it's like, what do you do with the rest of your time?

And so like, you may as well have a job And so a lot of my friends who write code for a living or do things like that are very, very strong climbers because of the schedule that it allows, the structure.

Um, that said, I think if you want to be a great free solist or like a big adventure climber, you're probably better off living in a van and just doing the thing nonstop.

Because for that, you're not trying to have that peak muscular performance.

You're trying to just learn a skill and do something all the time.

And so then like hours of practice, I think, matter more.

Maybe we can talk a little bit about recovery, as long as we're talking about number of hours that one puts in.

I'm sure your recovery looks different than it used to, but what What do you do to recover between sessions?

Are you a big believer in sauna, cold? Is it just basically sleep? not like push my three-year-old on the swings, you know, like that's how it recovers.

I like play with the kids on the swings and, uh, And I try to... I mean, you know, I try to eat relatively well.

I try to sleep enough. Like, I do all the basics for recovery.

But no, I mean, I basically just survive in between...

I was actually just joking with somebody that I think, as a 24-year-old living by myself in a van, I would have crazy days of climbing.

And then on a rest day, I would like binge watch an entire season of some show while eating an entire flat Oreos, just like never even leave the bed of my van.

And then the next day go out and like do a speed record on something and just be like, Oh, I'm so psyched.

And now I'm like, I'm definitely not doing that now.

Or at least, no, I haven't done that in forever.

Because I just don't have the time and don't have...

Yeah, so I think now it takes a little more effort to recover and it's just a little slower probably.

But it's hard to say though because a lot of that's just having kids and just having different demands of time in life.

But it sounds like climbers are pretty grassroots in their training and techniques.

Like, you know, in a lot of other areas.

Yeah, I mean, I was living in a van. I was basically like... super low overhead, no team, no support.

I'm just living in a car doing the thing nonstop for a decade.

And so that's a pretty scrappy approach.

And I think that in the years since then, climbing is professionalized a little bit, and there's a little more money, there's a little more support, and there's just a higher level of competition.

I think it'd be harder to... to achieve things doing just that now.

I think you'd have to have a little more of a plan.

Yeah, I can't help but sense that hyperbaric chambers and red light and massage guns and all that are going to be making their way into the climate culture.

Massage guns for sure are there. Massage guns are there.

I try to like roll out every once in a while.

Even when I was living in my van, I would stretch and roll out and do those types of things because you just kind of have to stay supple.

Yeah. How do you feel? How's your body feel?

Well, I mean, right now, I think pretty good.

I don't know. Yeah, I live in Las Vegas.

When I'm at home, I try to see this body worker in town once a week. pat sweet pat he's the man and so uh you know i think of that as kind of like a basic just taking care of you know making it's like an oil change it's like making sure the engine runs smoothly And I think as a result of body work like that, I haven't had any major overuse injuries in years.

So, like, that's pretty good for me. Awesome.

Yeah, maybe it's just because historically it was what I knew, but I'm seeing so many parallels with skateboarding where, like, there was this time when no skateboarders lifted weights or did any kind of fitness.

Then that started to happen. Actually, Danny Way jumped the Great Wall of China.

He was kind of the first person in skateboarding you're like he would do like neck training because he had broken his neck surfing in Newport and he was doing like these um you know, like where you like swing the ball above your head.

He was doing core work. And I remember back then thinking I sort of left skateboarding at that point.

And I was thinking like, that's Like skateboarders really have a problem with this because it wasn't consistent with the culture.

Now there are a lot of guys who work out and take care of their bodies.

There are still a lot of guys who absolutely kill it.

They're incredible. And their energy drink is like a beer and their quote unquote nootropic is cigarettes. and they murder it, they're super good.

And so I like these sports where it's like, you can't get around just investing a massive number of hours doing it.

And then you can either take the, the kind of rock and roll track into it, or you can take the kind of self-care track and sometimes people cross over, but you know, it works either way.

It really does. climbing still has that exact same thing going on where you can kind of go either way.

I do think, though, that the self-care track, will obviously win out long-term.

I mean, that's the thing with climbing and being in the Olympics and just the professionalism, all that.

I mean, obviously self-care is better for you long-term.

Like, you know, everybody knows that. That said... you still see a lot of very proficient climbers who, yeah, exactly, just kind of party, go hard.

I mean, because so much of climbing just comes down to effort when you're doing the thing.

Like if you go climbing several days a week and you try your absolute hardest every time you're climbing, you're going to get pretty freaking good. you know, whether you do red light therapy or like any of the weird other stuff or not.

So it's like, I mean, it really just comes down to your effort doing the thing.

And so, yeah, I mean, you could live And I mean, a lot of climbers, especially in the past, lived on a diet of cigarettes and coffee and freaking beer.

And you can get by that way. Yeah, the 1970s, 80s approach.

It's not ideal. It's not ideal. A friend of mine, Tom Bilyeu, he has very successful in business.

He also has a podcast. He was saying to me the other day, he goes, yeah, basically when young people ask him, you know, how to get good at whatever business or anything, he just tells them, work as if smartphones didn't exist.

Meaning when you're bored, go work on the thing.

When you don't have anything, like if you get rid, I'm not encouraging people to get rid of their smartphone, But I'm curious about your relationship to technology because I think nowadays, even though there are people training for the Olympics and whatnot, it is very hard to disengage from pressures of sponsors, pressures of just sheer communications, right?

And if you're coming up, this idea that you always have to be in contact with people.

It limits the total number of reps that you get physically, but also mentally.

Because I imagine there was a lot of times sitting back in bed and thinking about climbing.

Just like I used to sit back in bed and think about experiments.

And when I was in graduate school, now I'd probably, that phones didn't exist, I'd probably be on my phone.

I used to think about experiments and figures and what would this work and that work.

So what are your thoughts on kind of a mental, No, I think that's definitely a big thing.

I mean, I think I've thought in the past that in some ways I feel kind of lucky that I came up when I did in climbing. where it's like sort of pre-smartphone, pre-social, pre, you know, you just live in your car and you do the thing and that's it.

And that's your whole lifestyle. I mean, currently, I have all the social media accounts and things, but I don't have any of the apps on my phone.

I have a friend that manages it for me. I send all the content to her, but she posts stuff.

And so it's a nice way to sort of disconnect myself from scrolling aimlessly.

I don't really have the time anymore. It's like I'd rather play with my kids than for sure scroll.

Um, you know, I was like, but no, I mean, that's, that's tough.

I mean, I think it'd be hard to be a kid now growing up, like thinking that that's the norm that you like have to be connected, that you have to be capturing everything, you know, documenting it and then sharing it and posting it and just all this stuff.

I've always felt like The thing about being a professional climber is that you just have to be a good climber.

First and foremost, the key to being a professional climber is being able to climb really well.

And the most important thing is doing the thing.

And I just think when you get caught up in all the posting, sharing, streaming, all the whatever, that's not doing the thing.

But it's easy to conflate them, and it's, I don't know.

Yeah, no, I think it'd be really hard. Yeah, I agree completely.

And the hidden secret is that if you want something interesting to show on social media, the key is to not be on social media so that you have something to bring to it.

It's just so hard to actually be good at something.

And this goes back to what we were just talking about with free-souling and perceived risk and all that kind of stuff.

It's just really easy. to make something look rad, soloing-wise.

I could climb the outside of this building, and it would look insane.

It would get tons of likes. People would think it's cool.

But it's not cutting the edge. It's not cool.

It's not even hard. It's not... It's whatever.

But to actually do something that's cutting edge or newsworthy in climbing, It's pretty freaking hard.

And the challenge with social and with public, all that kind of stuff, is that it's just so easy to...

I don't want to say to fake it because it's not like people are out there like trying to be duplicitous or like to trick you.

But it's just you can get the same splash with none of the effort. through social stuff, I think.

You're like, oh, I just did something easy and people thought it was amazing.

Let's call that good. And you're like, well, that's just not good because it's easy.

It's freaking, you know, like it's not cutting edge.

It's not rad. I mean, you clearly go after big, big goals.

I mean, it's a... it's a giant goal. I think it really stands.

And I know you've been told this many times before.

So If it embarrasses you in a positive way, then great.

I mean, it stands as perhaps at least one of the most impressive physical feats in history because The risk consequence scenario there was you fall, you can potentially die.

There may have been moments along the climb where – Some brief moments, yeah.

Yeah, brief moments. Where you're right above a ledge.

You're like, oh, wow. Yeah. And it's so like you to point out those moments as opposed to all the other moments.

It really speaks to your mindset. But I think that going after big things, I mean, you know, building rockets to go to the moon.

I remember when I was a kid, Danny Wade decided to jump the Great Wall of China to do it live, so when it died, trying it on a mountain bike.

I remember I watched it on a little screen this big and I was like, I've known that guy since we're out of touch now, but for the most part, but since He was like 13 and he was always going after big things, jumping out of helicopters, jumping the Great Wall of China.

And then there are people who just push themselves.

And so what I wonder is on a daily basis, when you climb, do you ever just climb for fun?

When you climb, are you always working on something?

And there's this famous scene in Free Solo, more or less immediately after you got down from the climb, you're finger boarding again and like you're training and you're enjoying your routine, which by the way is consistent with keeping the dopamine flowing for process as opposed to like The postpartum depression that many people experience after a big feat is completed, selling a big company, et cetera.

You avoid all that by doing exactly what you're doing.

But then how quickly did your mind pivot to like, okay, what's next? in the domain of climbing?

Because I realize you've had two children, you've got other aspects of your life, but like, where's your mind in terms of where you want to take your life and your climbing?

Yeah, on the one hand, I set big goals, I guess, you know, something like El Cap.

But the thing is, I would actually say that's more the outgrowth of setting consistent little goals, like all the time.

I basically always have a running to-do list of like, what am I doing tomorrow?

What am I doing today? What am I trying to do this week?

And that extends to climbing as well with like, what are all the little things I can be doing?

Like, what are the little things I can take this week?

My climbing journal goes back to 2005 or 2006 or something, so basically everything I've ever climbed is logged with difficulty and times and whatever.

And so I'm constantly trying to take things as a climber, you know, just like to do new climbs that I haven't done before.

And so, I mean, I think... Actually, my day of climbing yesterday could be a good example of this.

Yesterday, my wife and I dropped off our older daughter at school, went to the cliff, did a day of sport climbing.

And then picked up our daughter on the way home.

It's like a perfect day like that where you can kind of like make it all work.

And... I'm not going to be able to go to that cliff very often this season just because of travel and work and life, basically. so I don't want to have any big project there because I just won't have time to do it.

You know, I'm trying to set my goals appropriately where I'm like, Oh, there's no point in trying to do something. that would take me a month or two to achieve if I only have three days.

And so I had a goal for that day of trying to do this very particular little project combination of routes that I hadn't done before.

It's just something new, something interesting.

It's not that hard. But then we got there and it was like the worst condition.

It was like 86 degrees when we parked the car.

And so, you know, it's like you're trying to work out and like horrendously hot.

And it was also that kind of monsoony. So it was very humid.

So we got to the wall and it's like disgusting.

And I was kind of like, well, you know, it's a training day, like whatever.

And so I tried to do this new combination of routes.

Ultimately, I failed on. I felt the very freaking top of the wall was like so maxed. and didn't do it, I'll probably get a chance to go back on Monday and I'll for sure do it then.

But it's a very small goal. This isn't cutting edge big.

This isn't even cool at all. My friends won't even care.

They'll think it's stupid. But it's nice for me to have a reason for me to try my hardest for that particular day of climbing.

And I think that the big goals come as a result of all those little things.

Like if day by day you're constantly doing something that's a little bit new, a little bit different, a little bit harder, whatever seems like the appropriate challenge for that day.

I think that looking back at 20 years of climbing outside nonstop, that the big things have just come as a natural outgrowth of all those little things.

You do like enough little things all the time.

And then every once in a while. something big happens.

And so I don't know that's, you know, but I have to do lists going back like years of like, goals and all these aspirations and you know some years I only do half of them some years I do a third of them and then You know, something like Free Selling All Cap sat on a list like that literally for years and it kept floating to the next year to the next year.

Because you get into Yosemite, you look at the wall and you're like, nah, that's, you know, you're like totally out of the question.

And so you just like punt to the next year.

And so, yeah, I mean, sometimes the goals don't happen.

Sometimes they do. But you kind of just have to let it play out.

You know, it's more like the day-to-day little challenges.

I love how matter-of-fact you are about it.

You are wired different. You think, I mean... Well, maybe not.

I mean, because, like, and this is a vastly... less high risk high consequence endeavor but like public speaking doesn't make me it doesn't raise my level of of cortisol or autonomic arousal at all.

Cause I've done so much of it. Right. Super well-practiced.

Yeah. I mean just, yeah. So sometimes I'll, you know, I'll think like, Oh, I'm like a little more keyed up than I want to be.

And I'll, I know how to calm myself down.

I'm actually, I feel the same way with public speaking now, but that's after years of practice.

It used to be, it used to be so stressful for me.

Like, so, Yeah, no, I was so shy. Proof that your amygdala does work like everybody else's.

No, I mean, exactly. That's why I hate all this stuff.

It's like, oh, you're just wired differently.

So I'm like, no, I know that, you know, like, yeah, public, like speaking in front of a class in school was like, mortifying.

But now after years of doing keynote speeches to like giant groups, I'm sort of like, no, now it's super chill.

But... that's all learned. Yeah, forgive me for saying you're wired different.

I think that when you did Free Solo, there were a number of news programs that like, Took advantage of the fact they put you in a brain scanner.

This is my field of neuroscience. His amygdala might not be activated the same way as other people's.

But I would have thought, and I think it's the case now you confirmed, that it's really domain specific.

Like you've done so much climbing, you have so many reps there that you're familiar with the contingencies.

And so it's not that you can't experience fear, it's that you're not placing yourself into truly fearful circumstances climbing.

But the fact that public speaking was an issue means that your threat sensors and the amygdala and related circuits work perfectly fine.

With that particular scanning in the fMRI, They show you a bunch of black and white pictures, and it's like whether or not that triggers the fear response.

And I was like, well, obviously looking at pictures isn't going to trigger my fear response.

But I'm like, had they thrown a snake into the fMRI with me, that would have triggered my fear response.

If there were giant spiders crawling over me, that probably would too.

And so I was like, no, obviously I feel fear.

I just, I'm just not afraid of black and white photos.

I was like, that's what they used. Like angry faces and that kind of the faces.

It wasn't even faces. It was like random stuff like, I don't know, like a gun and then like a light socket, you know, some things that are like neutral, some things that are whatever.

I should have designed the experiment. My lab used to work on fear.

Well, I think it was a standard. thing I think yeah I'm not trying to be disparaging of the research my lab used to work on fear we use VR that's how I met Michael Muller our friend in common he took me down to Guadalupe we did Two times we went down there, 2016 and 2017, doing cage exit diving with Great Whites, filming to get the VR.

I'll tell you, in real life, it's a hell of a lot scarier than it is.

Yeah, totally, than in VR. But along the lines of dying when you're doing the other thing, not the main thing, The cage exit part ended up being a lot safer.

I had an air failure while in the cage. I was on that hookah line and I was alone in the cage when it happened.

And I'll tell you that was a lot more terrifying than being out of the cage with the sharks.

Cause when you're out of the cage, you're on scuba and you have some degree of control over, you know, you can shoot for the surface when you're in the cage and and you run out of air and you're alone, you're just terrified and you're hosed.

No pun intended. You're not hosed enough.

So it speaks to this thing that when there's this big scary thing and you're really locked in, you often miss the – the more trivial seeming, but real danger that's close up.

But this is, I think one of the things, one of the real values of climbing is I think that As a climber, you spend all your time thinking about risk and managing risk and mitigating risk and all those kinds of things.

And so I think that I don't want to like toot my own horn too much, but I do feel good at evaluating risks like that.

You know, like what is the actual dangerous thing?

Like what's sketchy about the situation?

And it just often isn't the thing that people are looking at.

And that's what I was talking about earlier with people watching video of free-souling or whatever else.

They're like... it's sketchy. And I'm like, well, you know, might be in some ways, but probably not for all the reasons that you're thinking, you know what I mean?

Like the, the obvious visual thing is probably not the, the, the big challenge.

And it sounds a little cliche, but you're doing what you love.

You know, it's interesting. I think one of the biggest risks that I think about now as I get older is the non-daily lethal risk of grinding it out in a job you don't like.

And then one day you wake up and you're like, wow, there's no time machine.

Like I can't go back and get that vitality and that time.

Yeah, and that's where I think this idea of, you know, doing what you love really counts.

Whether or not you have to live in a van and do nothing else, or whether or not you can also go to school, but doing something that you love very, very much.

Yeah, because either way, you're going to die.

And you may as well die having done a lot of things you're really excited about than die regretting all the things you didn't do.

Totally. I mean, I think that actually that exact mindset really helped inform my whole climbing journey in a way.

It's like my father died when I was 19. And he died of a heart attack unexpectedly, just freak thing, running through an airport at age 55.

And, you know, and I think for a young for a teenager that makes an impression where you're sort of like, oh, like this could end at any moment.

And actually in both my grandfathers had just died like at roughly the same time.

So I think for an impressionable, you know, You're sort of like, oh, everybody dies.

Like, do you get to do all the things that you want to do before you go?

And, and I think my father, my father was a community college professor, taught language and, uh, You know, he ostensibly lived a risk-free life, you know, like relatively sedentary.

I mean, he traveled widely. He was great.

But by any risk perception thing, you'd be like, oh, he's a professor.

He's fine. And yet he still died young. and probably would have preferred to do a lot of other things before he went.

I'm sort of like, you know, it's just a reminder that you've got to do all those things.

Yeah, I want to talk to you about your philosophy on death and time and kind of life arc, and you've already started.

So thank you for that because I would say most of my friends who started families young, These are male friends whose dads died young.

And so they had this very keen sense of the finite duration of life.

And Steve Jobs talked about this. And he died young.

He seemed to have some sense of how long he was going to live. and really wanted to pack things in.

And I don't know why that was. He was adopted, so I don't know if he even knew how long his parents lived, et cetera.

But barring accident or injury, you know, we don't really know when we're gonna die, but sometimes I think we get the sense based on relatives.

And, you know, I can remember a time in my life Of course I knew I was gonna die, but I lived in a way that I just, I felt like I had all the time in the world despite pursuing things.

And I think with each passing year, I'm like, oh wow, like the wall's coming.

It's winding down. Yeah, like we gotta get the show on the road.

And I've done things I wanted to do, but it's interesting that It does seem that like having a parent die has a profound impact on where you set that horizon. you realize like today is part of an arc that has an endpoint.

And we know that, but we often don't live into that realization.

Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. And you say we know that, but I actually think that we don't talk about that enough.

You know what I mean? I think most people live with a little too much open-ended.

Because nobody wants to talk about death.

Nobody wants to talk about the consequences.

Because people think it's morbid or it's just not.

The thing is, we're all going to freaking die.

It's like, are we going to be proud of what we did before we died?

I don't know. I mean, yeah. Yeah. We'll see.

It's kind of cliche to be like, oh, better to die young and burn brightly and all that kind of stuff.

But to some extent, I think there's a middle ground where you're like, it's better to... try hard and do things that you're proud of.

And, you know, either way, you're going to die.

I agree. I mean, I think there is something interesting to this 27 effect, you know, so many like rock and roll musicians die at 27.

It's their quarter life crisis. Yeah. Quarter life crisis.

I haven't heard of the quarter life crisis.

You never heard of quarter life? Like all my friends have gone through a quarter life crisis.

Oh, really? Yeah. When does that happen? happened?

Well, like 25, you know, 27. Interesting.

No, I was just so focused on becoming a neuroscientist.

I didn't know. what else I would do besides that at 25.

I think it was just so locked in. But I've always been a little bit obsessive.

Have you always been a little bit like whatever you're into, you're into?

I guess it's been climbing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was just lucky to get into climbing when I was 10.

So this is something that I've just been into forever.

So did you play Legos as a kid? Yeah, and I was psycho about my Legos.

You were psycho about Legos? Yeah, yeah, psycho.

Like I didn't have a bed in my room because I had Legos covered across the whole floor.

Basically, I slept in a corner and I just had Legos all over.

Awesome. Kind of psycho. Do you see some of this in your kids?

Not quite that yet, but they're pretty young, so it's hard to tell.

But yeah, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see.

I kind of think, you know, it's all about having personality, like do a thing, do it well, like get excited about things.

I mean, there's just so many people on earth and they all do different things.

You may as well be the person to do that one particular thing and just like really do it.

No, I agree. That's the juice. I mean, I think for some of us, like I just know from my own life experience, like I thought I was certainly going to just get into skateboarding.

Many of my friends became professional skateboarders. got really good at or worked in the industry.

And early on I was getting hurt and I realized I'm not very good at this.

And then when I finally plugged into academics and learning, I was like, this is the thing.

And I loved it. And then eventually I pivoted to this thing, which I didn't anticipate.

But I do think that going all in on something is a –

It provides a really wonderful feedback loop that one can – like you feel – it makes you feel alive.

Yeah, you're like doing a thing. Especially when it's hard.

Yeah. Especially when it's hard. I've literally spent my whole life basically like all in on climbing and And I'm still, I just love going rock climbing.

You know, it's like, I mean, I think that's really the goal of parenting is to help your kid find something that they're that psyched about, like something that they can commit to and something that will drive them, something they're passionate about.

And so, you know, I mean, we'll see with with our kids, but it's like the idea is just to let them experience enough things that they can find whatever they whatever gets him out of bed every day. they certainly are in the right environment to flourish with it.

You mentioned that climbing is in the Olympics.

I could see and I've observed in other sports where the parents are kind of more obsessive than the kid and then the kid burns out on it.

I read Andre Agassi's book, Open, which is basically a story of his dad pushing him to play a game he did not want to play.

Yeah, that's maybe the best sports memoir ever.

That's a great book. Yeah, great book. Yeah, his dad was like a boxer and basically trained him in tennis like a boxer.

Yeah, so it's sort of like the light-handed approach of like –

I think kids know. I mean, you kind of let them forage, right?

No, we're taking the light-handed approach for sure.

I mean, our kids will obviously know how to climb because that's what we do all the time.

But so far, we just go hiking. We haven't forced them to climb.

We have a little bit of a home gym at home, like a little climbing garage.

And so the girls can play on the wall whenever they want to, but there's certainly never any pressure to do anything.

I read, and please correct me if this is inaccurate, but that it was during college that you had some family members pass away and when you really leaned into just climbing more.

Um, I think it's somewhere on the internet that you were climbing out in Indian rock, which is, uh, interesting to me because I went to graduate school in Berkeley and lived in Berkeley for a long time.

You went to Cal? I went to Cal for my master's.

And then I lived in Berkeley even when I was a postdoc at Stanford.

I loved Berkeley. I was like, you went from Cal to Stanford?

Were you allowed to do that? Yeah, born at Stanford, trained at Stanford, and still spent a lot of time at Berkeley.

I liked the culture in Berkeley then, and I liked the food.

So, I used to take pizzas from the cheese board up to Indian Rock.

And so, while you were climbing Indian Rock, I was eating and picnicking on Indian Rock.

It's amazing. So would you just pull a little solo journeys out there?

This is, by the way, folks, a big steep rock.

But on one face, it's gradual. It literally has like rock couches where um couples go on dates and you eat some pizza and hang out get an amazing view overlooking the city so you were climbing up the back of it which is anything but uh Well, actually, I was mostly traversing the bottom of it.

There's tons of... Basically, you can contour the whole base of the rock, and so you can climb for... a couple hundred feet basically without touching the ground.

So you just go back and forth doing laps and yeah.

I mean, from where I was living at Berkeley, it was only, I don't know, like a 30 minute walk to Indian Rock or something, so I basically wasn't going to class.

I was just strolling to Indian Rock and traversing the wall back and forth.

And then that's why I dropped out after one year at Berkeley.

It's kind of like I don't know why I'm at university if I'm not actually.

Actually, it's more complicated than that because that year I got into the youth worlds like an international thing.

And so I was going to take the semester off to go to worlds and travel and climb a little bit.

And so now I've just taken, you know, whatever, like 35 semesters off or something.

Yeah, exactly. No, I think after some point they were like, you're done.

They closed the hatch. Yeah, I think they closed that.

It worked out. It certainly worked out. Yeah, the thing that we find ourselves doing when – we should be doing something else in the positive sense of it.

I mean, that often is the thing that you're obsessed over.

Yeah. I mean, it's just hard to know with that stuff though, because obviously for most people, they probably should get an education and get a job of some kind.

Like even if you're a really passionate climber, I mean, most people probably aren't going to make a living as a professional climber because it's just too small an industry and, you know, the... depends on your level and everything.

I mean, I think I got kind of lucky. I mean, in a lot of ways I got lucky also just because I, I like soloing and it's like such a niche and not that many people do it and the level just wasn't that high.

You know, I sometimes joke it's easy to be the best if you're the only one doing it.

You know, it's like it's easy to compete as the only person in the field and you're kind of like, well, it makes it show.

And so, you know, I think I got lucky in a lot of ways like that.

And so, yeah, most people probably should finish university and climb as they can.

That said, I mean, if you love doing a thing, it makes sense to maybe build your life around how you can do that thing as much as possible just because it keeps you energized and fired up and makes the rest of your life better.

I think it was Ryan Holiday that said that if you don't know what to do with your life and you're still trying to figure it out, definitely stay in college.

Because there are all these tales of Mark Zuckerberg leaving Harvard and Steve Jobs dropping out of Reed College and Alex Honnold leaving Berkeley and eventually becoming the person that you are now.

But you had a direction. There was another thing to lean into.

It wasn't just, oh, I don't like this. I don't want to be.

Yeah. I mean, if you have nothing, then you drop out and you just go play video games in your basement or something like that's obviously not. that's not better than going to school.

Like you're better off going to school and broadening your horizons and doing whatever, but.

Yeah, I mean, I thought I was just taking some time off and I thought that eventually I'd become a mountain guide or something or like teach at summer camps or I don't know, you know, because especially at the time the climbing industry was so much smaller, there wasn't any money like I didn't think you could make it a living as a professional climber and so I thought it was just kind of a fun thing I was doing in the van for a while before I'd like find some kind of job or something And then, thankfully, the climbing industry has kind of scaled at the same rate that I did as a climber.

And so it all worked out. Is it... the case that you didn't have any monetary aspirations when you were doing it?

It sounds like you didn't, but Did you ever have the conversation with your mom?

Like, you know, how are you gonna make a living?

No. Well, so, I mean, I mentioned that my dad died.

So my parents had just gotten divorced. And so my dad had left enough for my sister and me to finish college.

And so I took that money and put it in bonds.

I'm just like, I don't know what that is.

But, you know, so I was making like a couple hundred bucks a month in bonds.

And then I stole the family minivan. Like I said, my grandparent and my two grandfathers had died before.

So I basically. My mom had inherited this little car.

So she was driving my grandpa's car. I took the family minivan.

I was making a couple hundred bucks in bonds. basically that just kind of covered any of the pressure, like the financial pressure.

Whereas like that gave me enough of a buffer that I was like, well, for several years, at least I can just kind of like live in this minivan and see what happens.

And then after a couple years, I was sponsored.

I was getting free product. I was getting a very, very small amount of money, but some amount of money, which is enough. to sort of justify the whole thing.

We were like, oh, companies are paying me to do this thing.

I should see how well I can do it. And then it all kind of took off from there.

But yeah, I mean, that's one of the ways in which I was very lucky as a climber.

There was just enough financial cushion that I could try to do the thing as much as I wanted for a couple of years and see how it played out. happen to work out well.

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It's going to sound like an odd question, but I'm very curious about this.

You've been in beautiful places, and you get a very different view of those places than most people.

There's a really great YouTube shorts of you hanging by one arm during a climb, which itself is impressive to the observer. you take some moments and you like look around and you're just like checking out the scene.

You're clearly not looking at the rock that I know, even as a non-expert.

And so I'm wondering this, I have reasons to ask, do you ever snap photos with your mind, your mind's eye?

Like, do you have like clear recollection of like, oh, I'm gonna snap a shot of this, like keep this one in mind?

I mean, to me, it's more of the living there day in and day out.

Like, you know, with freestyling El Capo, let's say, I mean, I spent months on the wall.

And it's like just every day. You're going up before sunrise a lot of the time, so you're watching the sunrise over Half Dome, and it's super beautiful.

And then you're going down at sunset, and you're watching the moon, and it's just...

It was just day in and day out. It's the most beautiful place on earth in all these amazing conditions.

Sometimes it starts snowing. Sometimes it's raining.

It's like there are clouds swirling and mist or whatever, and you're just like, oh, it's amazing.

But I don't really remember any specific...

You know like a snapshot of that it's more just the overall or like oh, it's just this amazing place It's pretty pretty awesome.

Yeah, like the freaking um What is it with Yosemite Falls?

Have you ever seen the moon rainbow thing?

The firelight thing? No, the fire falls is a different thing.

That's like with the moon and that's a different time of year.

In May or June, if you get a full moon, oh, the moon bow, that's what it is.

It's like when Yosemite falls. we'll cast a moon bow, like you'll be able to see a rainbow from the moonlight in the waterfall when it's at peak water.

It's totally insane. My wife and I went for a romantic walk to go look at the moon bow one season because it's just there.

And you're like, that's pretty cool. You know, it's like it's a rainbow at night.

Amazing. It's really cool. We're going to send a lot of people to Yosemite by virtue of Clouds Rest and for the non-climbers.

I still think it's crazy that you've climbed Clouds Rest more than once and never climbed Half Dome.

I've run clouds rest, rucked it. I've done it.

I've probably done clouds rest at least a dozen times.

That is crazy. Because you have to go past Half Dome, and Half Dome is the much more famous cousin that's closer and easier and kind of more spectacular.

Well, you have to drive past it. So to be clear, I'm starting from Sunrise.

Oh, you've been doing it. Oh, you're going from Tuolumne.

I'm going from Tuolumne. Oh, I'm way less impressed.

Oh, okay, good. Oh, I thought you were going from the Valley of Cork.

Because I was thinking to myself, like, I was like, you know, Clouds Rest is like 15 miles up and back.

It's like, it's not gnarly. No, going from the valley floor is really hard.

Going from the valley floor is hard. Yeah, OK.

I actually don't know many people who come up from the valley floor anymore.

I've only done it from the valley floor.

People tend to start at sunrise and then go down clouds rest, kind of go down the spine of it toward half dome.

And then I know this because then- Yeah, there are trails between them and it's all easy.

That's so funny because you were talking about rucking a heavy bag up there and I was like, man, that is a hard walk from the valley floor.

Because I'm thinking everything from the valley floor because I spent so much time in Yosemite.

I'm starting at about 8,000 feet, finishing at 10,000 feet.

Yeah, okay. I'm so much less impressed. Yeah, your daughters do this.

Yeah, well, not quite yet. It's three and a half year old dog.

That's what I was saying. Like, it's like, wow, he's right.

Okay. I mean, it's tough. I mean, 2000. Yeah, no, no, it's still tough.

I mean, it's like a workout. But going from the valley floor is really tough.

Because I had one season in Yosemite where for whatever reason I wasn't really motivated for climbing goals.

And I called it, I said that I retired and I was on a trail running season.

Though it's funny because I actually, I supported a bunch of my friends on things and I was bouldering with all my friends.

And so I said that I have a climbing journal.

So by the end of the season, if you look through the journal, it would look like a normal season where like almost every day I was climbing with somebody, I was doing something.

And then by the end of the season, I actually did a couple of things I was kind of proud of.

But the mindset going into it was like, I don't care.

I'm just here having fun. I'm trail running and I'm supporting my friends on things and that's it.

And and one of my big things that season was that I ran clouds rest from the valley floor.

But to me, that was like a triumph of trail running, you know, because that's like a pretty big.

How long is that? I don't know. It's like.

5,000 feet or 6,000. I don't know. It's like so far.

Yeah, let's see. It was like the hardest thing I'd ever run, for sure.

Yeah, you're probably going at least... three to four thousand feet from the valley floor up to the meadows and then another two thousand up to when the valley floor is four and top of clouds is ten something so you're doing six yeah yeah so it's like okay For me, I was like, oh, that's a lot.

That's a trail run. Yeah. And you're carrying water.

Yeah, I just had like a little bottle and I fell in the river or something.

Yeah. I mean, I don't consider myself a serious trail runner or mountaineer certainly, but I, I, ever since I got my driver's license, it was like Yosemite.

Yes. The best, you know, and glacier is amazing.

Um, You know, I swear I'm not sent here by the National Park Service, but...

I think Glacier's got some incredible scenery that everyone should make it to.

Have you done a lot of climbing in Glacier?

Actually, I don't think there is that much climbing in Glacier National Park, but I've actually biked past some. on the way to Alaska for this like random, random journey I did.

Yeah. But, um, but no, I haven't, I haven't done much in there.

What are the, um, if any, uh, cultural differences are climbing in the United States versus in Europe.

It seems like, uh, you know, like get guys training in the Alps.

I keep saying guys, but I want to be fair, not for politically, people.

I'm not saying this for politically correct reasons, but there's a movie out. very soon actually an IMAX movie I saw the trailer too there's a friend of yours a woman who's what's she climbing she's climbing the El Cap yeah she's climbing El Cap in a day like free in a day this route called Golden Gate Yeah, actually, surprisingly, I'm in that film much more than I thought because I supported her on each of her attempts.

We're talking about Emily Harrington, who's also a professional climber. who freed this route called Golden Guinea Day.

And the film's called Girl Climber. And I think it comes out.

24th. Yeah, it's not like soon. It's one day in an IMAX, but then presumably it'll be released.

And then some kind of theatrical release, but I think it'll be a relatively small theatrical release and then eventually stream and whatever.

But anyway, this film girl climber. Yeah.

It's funny because she worked on this goal for a long time and I'd kind of forgotten that I basically supported her on each of her attempts and Because when you support somebody, I mean, this is kind of like crewing somebody's race or something.

When you support somebody, it's basically a rest day for you.

You're having a nice day. You're supporting a friend.

It's like no pressure. It's all really chill.

And so the days that I supported her were all like, you know, I mean, I remember them, but they were just one day throughout a big season where I'd be working on other climbing goals, like all the things that I'm working on.

And it's just like a fun day supporting a friend.

But then I went and watched the movie and it's like, oh, every time she drives the wall, I'm like, they're supporting her.

And I was like, oh, God, I kind of forgot about all these things like a couple of years ago.

And I don't know. Yeah, it's funny seeing the film.

It's really inspiring. Is the route that she took particularly difficult?

What's the milestone that she achieves there?

She was the first woman to do that route in a day, free in a day.

That route's like a harder version of the free rider, the thing that I free soloed in the film Free Solo.

But, yeah, I mean, honestly, I think the film does a good job of not trying to portray it as anything more than it is.

I mean, it's a very difficult climbing achievement, but it's not. like it doesn't need, it's not the hardest thing ever done.

It's not the first time that, you know, But it's very hard and if you watch the film you see what makes it meaningful is the level of effort that she puts into it It's like it's hard for her She's a great climber and she puts a lot into it, a lot of herself into it.

And eventually, I don't know. you know, spoiler, but eventually overcomes and, like, manages to do this thing that's really hard for her.

And I think that's... Which, in a lot of ways, I mean, that's climbing... in a nutshell it's like none of it really matters because like even freestyling El Cap I mean you can walk around the back like you know it's like why put the years of effort into climbing the face when you can walk around the back Like all of climbing is relatively meaningless.

And so ultimately it's the effort that we put into it that, that. that has value.

And so I think that's, that's what the film girl, girl climber does a really good job of sort of like, Oh, wow.

Like she puts a lot into it and therefore gets a lot out of it for herself.

Awesome. And I haven't seen it yet, but clearly for the observer too.

I mean, I find it amazing that humans love to see other humans accomplish great feats.

I think they love to see the effort. I mean, the accomplishment, of course, but you love seeing somebody work really hard at something, try really hard, face their fears, overcome, and then ideally achieve something.

But I think it's the effort that's so inspiring.

I mean, at least personally, I love to see other people try that hard because it's a reminder that I can try that hard if I want to.

Yeah, no, I completely agree. I, I'd made this little list before we, uh, uh, started and, um, trying to just let my unconscious mind guide it more than I'm really scripting out carefully.

And it says Evil Knievel, because when I was growing up, everything was Evil Knievel.

It turned out there were many of them. It's a whole family.

Yeah, a bunch of evil Knievels. The Knievels?

The Knievels, yeah. And, you know, jumping, you know, whatever, you know, 50, maybe not 50, length to length. semi-trucks.

And I think, you know, there's the element of danger.

It's super impressive. Danny Way, growing up, because I knew that kid, who's now... full grown man doing all sorts of crazy stuff to the point where he was starting to go after things that for skateboarders has felt a little bit um kind of outside the box like land speed records and things like that you know but jumping out of helicopters and certainly grump jumping the great wall of china just engineering it from scratch was super impressive.

And then I've got you here and then Hunter Thompson, you know, like the guy just was all about like how many drug experiences he could have.

And then his funeral was actually, he loved the town of Aspen.

He had his ashes exploded over the town of Aspen in a firework show.

So that's like going out the way you lived.

That is fitting. Right. So I think you're absolutely right, however, that we love to touch into the amount of effort and training that's required.

And that's the Rocky movies. That's pretty much everything.

The work is like that's that should be the inspiring part, right?

Because that's the part that one can adopt.

The Rocky training montage. That's the best part of the movie.

I mean, a lot of those films, the best part is the training montage where it's like cuts to the person. and working really, really hard for a long time, and getting swole.

And then you get to the actual them doing the thing.

And them doing the thing is cool. But it's like them getting ready to do the thing is often the part that you're like, that's so awesome.

I'm all fired up. Totally. It's the chasing chickens and all the weird stuff.

Speaking of which, for the non climber, what would be the strangest aspect to your training?

Do you train your feet? Do you train your hands in ways that are on you?

But it's probably the dangling from your fingertips that I think a non-climber would...

I mean, also, I mean, I think that's the type of thing that a non-climber just can't even interface with.

Like they just can't hang from an edge. You know, it's like from a small, it's like the training your fingertip type stuff.

Yeah, I mean, I think though, I mean, now there have been so many mainstream climbing things that I think people have a sense of that's what it is.

You like dangle on tiny edges and do pull-ups and all that kind of stuff.

Well, I think I follow an Instagram account that's actually informative.

It's a former Army guy who's a rock climber.

And so it's mainly focused on pull-ups and things like that and touching into like, if you change the speed of the initial, one arm pull up, like learning to blast through the bar, like through and above the bar and let go and then catch it again, generates a completely different sort of motor neuron adapt adaptation response than like just doing a bunch of pull-ups or like slow one arm pull-ups.

Like the ability to be ballistic but, and then also like the eccentric, like catch yourself and lower.

And it seems to have a lot of parallels with climbing.

Maybe we should just go on a wall and climb, it sounds like.

So I imagine if you're bouldering, you end up doing all this stuff in the process of bouldering.

Yeah, actually, I was immediately like, so should I be going faster when I do pull-ups?

Because I've been doing one-arms at the end of a session, but my one-arms are pretty slow.

You just grab the bar and you just struggle until you do a...

I mean, he talks about, you know, a lot of people can do a lot of pull ups in full range, slow, concentric and eccentric, but that they rarely ever get to like muscle ups or to one arm pull ups. at the kind of level that he's pulling a ton of weight because there are a number of things that he suggests we can link to this account.

A lot of there's some training of forearms and brachialis and hands that's required.

But he said, you know, that not being able to generate enough force at the beginning is a reason a lot of people don't get to the muscle up because with the muscle up, you actually, there's a little bit of a kip involved, at least when one's first learning it.

And so people are used to kind of dragging themselves in low gear out of the bottom. it's going to be a long while before they have the strength to do a muscle up.

Whereas if you can blast yourself out of the bum, you sort of end up almost above the bar at some point.

I actually just started doing muscle-ups again a couple months ago in my little home gym.

And I was like, I haven't done a muscle-up since I was a teenager.

It's kind of a gym feat when you're a kid just to see if you can.

And as an adult, it's just also living in a van.

Obviously, you can't do muscle ups because there's nothing to muscle pass.

You're like hanging from a little bar inside the van.

But yeah, I started doing it again. I was like, oh, wow, it's so explosive.

I was kind of like, wow, what a dude. I was so psyched I could still do them.

Well, yeah, then you don't need his help, but I'll...

I'll send you this account so you can take a look.

He's got some interesting predictions. I did want to – I mean, I was like, oh, I'm – going to chat with Hoopman.

I was like, so what am I supposed to be doing?

Well, that's the thing is like, well, cause I've just been doing all the same training stuff for 30 years.

I mean, and obviously I've, I read all the books and all my friends are professional climbers, so we talk about this kind of stuff all the time.

But there are a lot of things where you're always kind of, as like a self-trained, self-coached athlete to some extent, you're kind of like...

Should I be doing this more? Should I be doing this less?

I was training a bunch this summer and was really motivated.

And then I've kind of just, the pendulum has kind of just swung back to being like, do I need to do trainee stuff like the calisthenics, the extra workout stuff, or should I just go pure climbing?

Because to some extent, if you want to be a good climber, you just climb.

If you have energy left over, you should just climb harder or climb more. you don't necessarily need to save it for workout stuff and training stuff.

So, I don't know. But yeah, what do you think?

Okay, well, I'm not going to tell Alex Arnold how to change his training, especially before you take on a big milestone.

I mean, all I can say is what... and I don't have a degree in exercise physiology.

What I do have a degree in is 35 years of of trying to get stronger.

I'm naturally pretty, I would say like medium joints.

I'm not like real thick joints, like my bulldog, you know, like some of those guys that just have like naturally the joints.

But I'm actually keeping some endurance and some degree of explosivity, but mostly strength and endurance have been the two main things.

To me, the thing that... has just been the most beneficial is what Pavel Satsulin taught me when he came here, which is take a... a weight that you can maybe do six or seven, maybe eight reps with and do three repetitions, sit down and just do many more sets and rest a long period of time.

If you have time to do that, that really like that, really work those fast twitch motor units.

You mean do the reps faster? Well, no. not necessarily.

So if you take a weight that you could do maximum eight, like you'd fail somewhere between seven and eight repetitions, you take the, the weight, maybe even add a little bit and you just do three repetitions.

You don't go to failure. but you do many more sets.

So you might do, let's say some sort of push pull.

So like a shoulder press of some sort, or, and then if you could get eight, you do three or four.

But then you go do your pull-ups, you might do your sort of ballistic pull-ups that we were talking about before. um, progress from those as like trying to blast through and pass the bar and kind of catch it below.

I'm almost there. I'm kipping too much when I do it.

So I'm doing it, but I'm kind of like throwing myself up there.

I'm not doing like a super controlled muscle up yet.

Soon, that's the goal. But not training to failure seems to be really beneficial if you don't want to eat into your recovery too much.

There's something about hitting muscular failure that's great for generating hypertrophy.

But it really, according to Pavel, and I'm finding this too, it sort of teaches your nervous system to reach that static point where you can't move any longer.

And it really eats into your recovery ability.

So I'm able to now train muscle groups that I used to only be able to recover if I train them once or twice a week.

I can train them like three or four days a week and I'm making much more progress overall, but there's no single set where I'm like grinding out that last final rep.

That's interesting. So bench pressing, for example, that's actually the only weight that I move around is I bench when I'm at home and have my own little home gym, I bench press like twice a week, let's say.

And I feel like it's like good for shoulder stability, health.

It's like nice to balance. Cause as a climber, you're always pulling.

So it's like, I do, that's my only pushing basically. and so so I can do like I normally do three sets of five or six it's just kind of like a basic something so you're saying I should do like six sets or like eight sets of three or something.

Yeah, maybe eight sets of three to four, with slightly more weight, but don't go to failure and obviously have a spotter.

There are these horrible instances where people are benching at home and they don't Well, I only have dumbbells anyway.

OK, perfect. That's the best way to do it.

Like that's the type of thing too. Also, I kind of like the dumbbells because it seems more like so much of what I care about is shoulder stability and whatever.

And I'm kind of like, oh, it seems like dumbbells are good for that.

Barbell bench, I'm going to catch a lot of shit for this, but barbell bench press, there's a lot of ego involved.

Yeah, it's too showy. I'm like, I don't need that shit.

I've never actually done a single rep max. for barbell bench press.

Never been curious enough. Because you don't have enough friends to help spot that much weight.

Don't have enough friends, exactly. You need like six guys to run a bar.

I'm all alone, I'm studying, and I'm bench pressing alone in my basement.

Another reason to use dumbbells, but yet taking a weight that you could do seven or eight repetitions and doing three or four or maybe five, and then just setting it down and going doing something else maybe for an opposing muscle group and then coming back to it so that your total rest is somewhere.

I might try that particularly for the benching because I do actually get kind of sore from like, You know, it's just- Being sore sucks.

And you get really strong. I never would have thought this because I came up in the- the lineage of, I learned from Mike Menser, who was like a, he was an ex bodybuilder, but then he trained Dorian Yates, who won the Olympia many times.

And that whole philosophy was around doing one or two sets to absolute failure with four straps and drop sets and all the stuff that builds a lot of muscle but makes you very sore.

And so Pavel sat right where you're sitting and he was just like, try this. find movements you can do safely, load up the bar and do far fewer reps, many more sets, and perhaps even divide those sets across two days during the week as you're already doing. as opposed to just training a muscle group once per week.

Do people do that, doing something once a week?

I only train my legs once a week, and I'm getting stronger most every workout.

But I sprint on a separate day, so that's kind of a leg workout.

Yeah, it seems like a leg workout. I don't have great recovery ability, never have.

And you don't push in 50. And I'm pushing 50.

And I didn't run from the valley floor. Yeah, exactly.

You know, exactly. I definitely... have found that if I avoid going to momentary muscular failure, as it's called, far less soreness, far better recovery, and you get really strong, which is crazy.

You would think the opposite. Yeah. Do you think once a week is enough stimulus basically to like build?

If you do enough sets, but probably twice, you know, the data seem to show that the muscle protein synthesis is initiated after those workouts.

And then it takes anywhere from 48 to 72 hours before it subsides.

I just personally find if I train my legs once a week, but then I sprint four or five days later, that sort of two leg workouts.

Yeah. You know, so it's really twice a week.

And then I do a push pull day and then I do a separate day for my, my arms and extremities and, and And that ends up training, you know, chest and shoulders and back again.

So it's really twice per week. Yeah, so you're doing all your stuff basically twice a week.

But everything heavy... Like really heavy, never going, I don't think I've done above eight reps this year.

I'm stronger than ever. And I can run really far. which is so the two things i always thought those were a long run during the week or something i do one for me very long run which means an hour to an hour and a half of just running with a 10 pound weight vest oh why just to make sure that the small stabilizing muscles are strong.

And also because I want to be able to just show up to Cloud's Rest and just do it.

I don't want to have to train for things in life.

Yeah. And I love, also I love running. I mean, just that low, that slow pace at first, just, it sucks.

And then after about 20 minutes, you just like, I could go all day.

This is awesome. I don't know, that's been my regimen now for almost 35 years to train each muscle group once a week, directly, indirectly, a long run, and I try and do one sprint run.

But again, I'm not going to tell Alex Honnold how to train, but you might find if you don't like getting sore and you want to get stronger.

Yeah, that makes sense to me. You're hearing it from me, but it's really Pavel Satsulin that deserves the credit for this.

Yeah, no, I'll try that for sure. Because particularly with something like benching, where it's like, I don't really care about pushing muscles, but... when your, when your pack or whatever, whatever this muscle is like the, you know, connecting your shoulder, it's like region.

Yeah. It's like so sore. And then that kind of affects all your pulling as well.

And so you're kind of like, oh, you just don't need to get.

That's or doing something that's like a side activity anyway.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm guessing you're already getting it from your climbing.

But I found that... Anytime I'm doing pushing, which is basically all the time, making sure that I train like some rear deltoid type thing where you're pulling, getting that smaller muscle on the back of the shoulders.

A lot of people, you don't have this problem, but if you look at a lot of people lift weights, they just stand passively.

Their thumbs kind of point towards their groin.

Like they're kind of internally rotated.

Yeah. Whereas if you look at people who, kind of do like the Fonzie thing.

Like you want your shoulder, you want your thumbs, like if you were just stand or sit naturally, your thumbs pointing straight forward.

So you're looking like. I've met Mike Tyson and he's like this, but he spent his whole life in that peek-a-boo stance, right?

Then you meet people like you, or people who practice yoga regularly or the really like most impressive postures and physiques are the dancers.

Like Eric Jarvis was on this podcast, he's a neuroscientist, but he was accepted into the Allen, is it Allen Avery Dance Company?

It was like, you know, elite dance company, or you see like a Twyla Tharp who's in her 80s.

And like, She doesn't look like she's rigidly upright.

She's just upright. And that's how I want to be when I'm in my 80s.

That's so hard. Well, it's just, she spends two hours a day in the gym, seven days a week.

Wow. 5am to 7am. And she's in her 80s. And then three hard boiled eggs.

And then she gets to work. Like, yeah, she's I'm like, that's a healthy lifestyle.

She's and cognitively she's just so strong.

Yeah, climbers definitely have issues with posture like that because if you spend your whole life just pulling.

Like, you know, climbing, if you just climb, you're just doing pulling things.

And so you wind up kind of like, you kind of want to punch.

I think it's because like you still use some of these muscles for, for pulling.

And so you just wind up kind of tight in different ways.

Yeah. So things like put you in a bridge pose and like in, in like spinal extension, those seem to be very useful.

Yeah, again, I'm not an elite athlete or even a competitive athlete, but I find that doing things that just like a long, slow run, a sprint day, training heavy with weights, but being able to you know, run for 30 minutes.

I mean, it's just, I don't think I need a degree in exercise physiology to just, it just makes sense.

You're just, I'm trying to be upper end of average at everything.

but that's very different than what you're trying to do.

Obviously you're an elite athlete. Yeah.

But some of the stuff like running, like, uh, like I went for a one hour run yesterday.

I've been trying to run one day a week, just like great for an hour once a week.

And then I try to do one kind of cardio adventure once a week, which is like climb a mountain or do something.

Awesome. anywhere from like two to four hours, let's say, but hopefully with like 3,000 plus feet of vert or something, just like go up a thing, kinda trot down.

And that's kind of enough to maintain cardio.

I mean, this is kind of like family lifestyle.

Cause the thing is like when I was, living in a van by myself, you're just doing that stuff on rest days all the time because you're kind of like, oh, I'm going to summit this new peak or like check out this hike or do whatever.

Yeah. But now that I'm living in a place and taking kids to school and all that, it's like I kind of have to be a little more structured with just like I'm going to go.

Now I'm definitely thinking about all this a little more.

It's like, is this enough cardio? Is this work?

But I think that that lays a good foundation to be able to do things like I'm going to be in Yosemite this season.

And, you know, I'm aspiring to climb stuff on all cap, not free selling necessarily.

Yeah. or not free-soling at all, but maybe some rope-soling, maybe some speed stuff, maybe whatever.

But either way, I just want to be able to climb 3,000 feet relatively quickly without being that tired and so it seems like for running or for mountain climbing it's like oh you just have to be able to do that kind of vertical without getting too fatigued Yeah, I think the one day a week long run, one day, one day a week, like 30 minute run at a faster clip and then one day a week sprint training.

I mean, you're covering all bases there.

That's three days a week of running though.

And I'm like, I don't love running that much.

Yeah, but one of them is like 12 minutes long.

You warm up for three minutes. It's sprint training, 12 minutes.

11. Yeah. Cause you're, you know, you, you warm up and then you run a 400, you know, and then you, you walk a lap, you do a 200, you walk a lap, you do a hundred.

And like you're going not all out, all out.

But close. Yeah, you can hurt yourself sprinting all out, all out.

We... Had Stu McMillan, who's an elite sprint coach, trained a lot of Olympians and gold medalists.

Yeah, running full speed is like how you hurt yourself.

You pop a hand string or something. Are you at a track?

I prefer doing a track. Sometimes I'll do it in the soft sand.

And when I use a vest, I should say, and I have no sponsorship relationship to them.

Amorfo makes these vests that are like, it looks, it's kind of funny to call it this, but it looks more like a, kind of vest that, you know, you, you know, like a dress vest and it's got little ball bearings in it.

So it's not like, like one of those, like a police type vests.

Yeah. And so that, eight or 10 pounds, they make up to 12 pounds.

I think it's just enough to give you some extra work on that long run.

And then on the day when you sprint, you feel like you have, you know, jet propulsion.

You know, I feel like that. I realize I don't.

Yeah, totally. And then all the little stabilizer things, like you don't have any like aching, like you're, you seem like a very balanced in terms of your overall structure.

That's one thing that I've really noticed about climbers.

Like you see guys that are in the gym, I've spent a fair amount of time in gyms, and there's this phenotype where they've got these big wide shoulders, wide back and the whole thing.

And then they got like this little head and a little neck and you go with their upper spot and they're not training their neck.

And it looks crazy. I mean, I don't know if anyone has told them this, but they're like, I walk by and I'm like, don't skip neck day.

But when a body is out of balance like that, like if you saw a giant dog with a tiny head and neck, you'd be like, that dog is...

It's crazy looking. That's it. There are a lot of dog breeds like that where you're like, that dog, it's hard to believe it came from a wolf.

Exactly. You're so inbred. So, right, the healthiest version of something that can move best is always fairly balanced.

It seems like climbers are very balanced across their whole body.

No, I think climbing is one of the healthiest sports and lifestyles.

And also just, it's so fun. Like going to a gym, you hang out with your friends.

It's mostly really chill. You mostly hang out and chitchat.

And if you do a gym session, you feel like you just went and hung out with your friends the whole time.

But then you also wind up fit and mobile and, you know, pretty strong and and so much of climbing is strength to weight.

And so you just wind up kind of like. lean and not like a big gym, gym bro kind of thing.

Which I think is healthier as one ages too.

Like you, you want to maintain muscle and hold on to muscle, but, there's all sorts of things associated with being heavily muscled where people end up with some kind of sleep apnea or pseudo sleep apnea because the neck is thick and it blocks the airwaves. sleep apnea is one of the biggest health risks.

People, not just heart attacks during sleep, but I mean, you're basically clogging all the blood flow and cleaning out of your brain that happens during sleep.

It's very, very common in bigger people, either because they're fat or heavily muscled.

But it's one of the reasons a lot of bodybuilders don't.

Thank goodness I've never put on that much muscle.

Well, you can clearly generate a lot of force doing what you're doing.

I'm curious how you deal with cramps when you're on the rock.

Like, no, you don't. You just don't really cramp.

You don't cramp. Yeah, not really. I've never.

I mean, sometimes if you're trying to climb El Cap in a day, like an 18-hour ascent or something, like climbing with a rope.

But free ascents. Basically, if you're doing really long climbs, some of my friends sometimes will cramp because you're late into it. post 12 hours into a an athletic activity or just a little more likely but I never I never have pretty much in general all my athletic performance is always a steady decline where I start and I'm doing great and then Over the next 10 to 48 hours, I just slowly get worse at a relatively linear rate. except that normally before sunrise of the next day, it starts to drop quite a bit more.

As you start getting close to 24 hours, you're like, I'm pretty fucking tired.

But then when the sun comes up, you've really like boost back up again.

And so then you're pretty good again. You just keep on the linear decline.

So these are all night climbs. Yeah, I mean, I've done quite a number of things now that are, like, more than 24-hour outings.

You know, I mean, that's typically, like, climbing or mountain climbing.

So you're like hiking and climbing and then hiking some more and climbing some more, doing whatever.

But yeah, generally, you know, by 24 to 36 hours, you're just... you're just a worse version of what you used to be.

You're just tired. And risk goes up when you're sleep deprived.

I mean, that's, uh, Well, like, yeah, judgment gets worse.

Reflexes get worse. Like, everything is worse.

Sleep is key. But yeah, that circadian clock phenomenon where you've been up all night, but then you start waking up again, it's pretty incredible.

Yeah, as soon as you see the sun. I mean, also, some of it with outdoor stuff is that... just when you can see again.

It's like you've been going by headlamp for so long.

And typically by that point, your headlamp is kind of dying.

You just don't see that well. And then the sun comes up and you're like, thank God.

And it's not cold anymore. It's like this sun.

So you get this like breath of fresh air.

And then you just keep grinding. Have you... ever had, or do you have any kind of, like, leaning towards this, like, mystical experiences?

Like, do you believe in any of that? No, I've always been a fierce atheist. technically I was raised Catholic.

So like I know religion a bit and I've just never, I've always been like, you know, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm like, yeah, I'm strongly unreligious.

Though, I mean, I've been in so many beautiful places on earth and had so many... you know, what some would characterize as spiritual experiences, like feeling a oneness with nature, like a connection, you know, or just awe-inspiring beauty, you know, when you're somewhere and you look out and you're like, oh, the universe is so incredible this is like the world is a magical place so you know I'm certainly open to general spiritualism I suppose or But no, I'm very opposed to organized religion, basically.

Biology is awe-inspiring. Yeah, that's the thing.

I'm like, I think there's enough wonder in the world and in the universe without adding all the layers of dogma, basically.

Like all the weird things that you don't really need to believe.

I can't help but tell you this because I find it fascinating and I think you might find it interesting.

If not, then forgive me. speaking of Berkeley, there was a laboratory at Berkeley that wanted to understand how geckos could walk up walls.

And for a long time, it was thought that it was like suction of some sort, but then it turns out, They could do it in a vacuum.

So it means that it can't be suction. It turns out they have these little pedals on their, on their fingertips.

And they can push those pedals. They're like feather, organized sort of like feathers.

They can push them so close to the surface that they're climbing. that they use what are called van der Waal forces, which is the exchange of molecules between the surface and those pedals.

And they're making and breaking those van der Waal forces as they climb.

So as they climb, they're exchanging molecules with the surface they're climbing. which I find absolutely amazing.

I realize that's not how you're climbing.

Well, I'm sweating all over the wall, so it's kind of the same idea.

There you go. Right, right. And I'm leaving skin behind.

You're like, oh, my dips, it hurts. Well, you may not feel a kinship to them, but I have a feeling they feel a kinship to you because they are world-class climbers.

I just find it amazing that they've evolved some way to literally exchange molecules.

So I mean, you spent a lot of time on the rock.

I'm sure that you're carrying some granite in you by now.

Yeah, for sure, for sure. No, that's cool.

I mean, you see a lot of creatures on walls like that.

You know, you see like little frogs wandering up and down.

I mean, even something like El Cap that looks like a 3,000-foot solid cliff.

I mean, there are rodents running up and down the cracks.

They're frogs in there. They're all kinds of birds.

They're bats. So you see all these creatures roaming around.

You're just kind of like, oh, they're just living.

They're just up here doing their thing. I mean climbing is so relatively hard for humans and then you're up there and it's just all part of the natural environment for all the other creatures.

I didn't realize there were frogs up there.

I've seen birds go by. I think there are a couple of clips in Free Solo where birds go by.

Yeah, they live in all the cracks. Often when you put your hands in, birds will like run down your arm and fly out of the crack and things like that.

And you're like, whoa. It's startling. Yeah, it's startling.

Well, I mean, it's very startling the first time and then, you know, less startling the subsequent times.

But you're always kind of like, oh, wow, a swift just ran down my arm.

That's wild. It's cool. Well, Alex, you've inspired and continue to inspire so many people.

And I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it's the effort involved.

I think that many people... Um, might think it's the summiting and like standing on top of the rock and that those are moments that thanks to you, we've been fortunate enough to, to share and experience, you know, uh, indirectly, but clearly it's the effort involved.

And I actually think that's why people are so intrigued by what you do. in addition to the fact that it's in beautiful places and incredibly high risk, high consequence.

It's so clear that you're regimented and that you love what you do. and that you put a ton of effort into it.

And the way you describe climbing with your friends, I think is the best hook. sales pitch for climbing ever, like hanging out with your friends, talking and getting better and physically healthier.

And it puts you in a place to go have bigger adventures and experience life more richly.

Let's also get you back sometime after this next big feat.

We can't talk too much about it. I'm sure it'll be amazing.

Awesome. All right. Well, we'll see you after that climb.

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[The Philosophy of Risk, Training, and Mastery with Alex Honnold]-[How to Set & Achieve Massive Goals | Alex Honnold]

📋 Summary

The Psychology of High-Stakes Performance

The Balance of Intrinsic and Extrinsic Motivation

Preparation as a Tool for Automaticity

Reframing Risk and Mortality

The Evolution of Training and Longevity

Conclusion: The Value of Effort

🎯Key Sentences

📝Key Phrases

📖 Transcript