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Welcome to feel better Live More Bite Size, your weekly dose of positivity and optimism to get you ready for the weekend.
Today's clip is from episode 436 of the podcast with Charles Duhigg, author of the international bestseller, The Power of Habit.
We can all make short -term changes, but so many of us struggle to make our new desired behaviors last.
In this clip, we discuss the science of small wins the power of momentum and the importance of keystone habits you can't extinguish a bad habit because those neural pathways stay in play that's really really interesting yeah let's use sugar or chocolate let's stay on those because i think they're they're so common particularly
in my world yeah you feel a bit low you get your favorite chocolate bar, you get a big reward, don't you?
You feel high, you feel good.
You've self -soothed, right?
So that's the reward.
It's quite tricky to change that though, isn't it?
Because once you've locked that in, it's quite hard to change it.
So what's interesting there is you're craving the self -soothing, right?
Once we do the experiments, we figure out what I'm actually craving.
What's the reward that my brain wants?
So, and for anyone, you know this, but for anyone who's listening who hasn't been exposed to some of these ideas, one of the things that we've learned is that every habit has three components.
There's a cue, which is like a trigger for this automatic behavior, and then the behavior itself, and then a reward.
Every habit that exists in our life has a reward, whether we're aware of it or not.
And once we know that it's self -soothing as opposed to the taste of chocolate or the buzz that chocolate gives me, then at that point, it's a question of what else also delivers self -soothing.
So you, I mentioned something before, calling a friend.
Calling a friend oftentimes is one of the greatest sources of self -soothing.
And so it's worth at that moment saying, instead of picking up the chocolate bar, I'm going to self -soothe because I know that I'm craving that right now by calling a friend.
Now, it might be for someone else that actually the taste of the chocolate is what they really, really enjoy, in which case we should experiment and they should have a piece of apple, right?
That's also sweet and healthier, to see if that satisfies the craving that they're feeling.
There's actually some experiments done where they gave people Splenda and they told them just to rub it on their tongue.
And they found that people who crave taste sensations, sugary taste sensations, this will basically satisfy that craving.
And so the thing is to figure out what is actually driving the behavior.
for me when I was writing power of habit I had this bad habit where every afternoon I'd go eat a cookie in the cafeteria of the New York Times where I worked at the time and I couldn't figure out why and I talked to these researchers and they said well you know let's look for the cue right like tell
me about when this happens and I was like oh it's usually between 3 15 and 3 45 and they were like sounds like a time of day is probably your cue and then we know the behavior you go up to the 14th floor you buy a cookie you eat the cookie and what happens, what happens then?
And I said, well, usually I'll like go over and like, I'll, you know, I'll, I see some friends and I'll sit down and I'll kind of gossip with them for a little bit and I'll eat the cookie.
And they said, okay, the reward might be the cookie.
It might be sugar. It might be the just taking a break from work, but it might also be those friends.
So next time you do this at three 45, whenever you feel the urge, stand up, look for someone to go gossip with it without going up to the cafeteria, go gossip with them for 15 minutes and then come back to your desk and see if you're still craving that cookie?
And the answer was no, no.
The reward for me was this social experience.
The cookie was an excuse.
Yeah. I love that. I love that example so much because I honestly believe I'm not saying this is easy, but I think we're making these things often a lot harder than they need to be.
We always think it's the chocolate.
Well, what if it isn't?
What if it's something else you're getting?
You know, as you say, that the social connection?
What if it's the act of going to a cafe, interacting with the person and saying hi?
Maybe there's someone you like in the cafe who actually, you know what?
Yeah, you tell yourself a story, you're going there for the crisps or the chocolate, but maybe it's just because you're a bit bored at your desk and you like the social interaction.
Or maybe it's just, you need a break from work, right?
The 3 .45 comes along and you're feeling a little bit low.
So like maybe taking a walk around the block does the same thing.
And again, this is why experiments are so important.
is because if you come up with a list of potential rewards that are alternatives and you experiment with them, you're gonna figure out what's actually driving your behavior.
When we're in the grip of a habit, our brain actually powers down, right?
This is why habits exist is because every animal on earth has a part of the brain known as the basal ganglia that exists essentially to make habits.
And it's because if you don't have habits, you have to decide every time you pass an apple or a rock, which one you ought to eat, right?
You have to think about how you walk.
So our brain developed this system where when we're in the grip of a habit, we can make a behavior automatic without having to think about it the entire time, which means we can think about other things.
We can dream up how to build fire or forts or video games.
But when our brain turns off in the grip of a habit, we tend to stop paying attention to the cues and the rewards, right?
We don't notice, oh, I want ice cream right now because I'm stressed.
Some part of us knows, but it's very easy to ignore that voice.
And when you pull it into the forefront of your brain, when you make yourself start thinking about it again and someone says, oh, my cue is stress.
I usually turn to sugar.
Sugar actually does not solve this problem for me.
It's a crutch, but there's another behavior that would be healthier and provide the same reward.
Then all of a sudden change becomes so much easier.
Yeah. And it doesn't mean that change is easy, but it means change is easier.
Now, so this is for changing behaviors.
The other question often is how do we create a new habit?
And in that case, it's very similar but a little bit different in that we need to choose a cue, right?
So for me, it was running.
I was never athletic before I started writing The Power of Habit and I really wanted to get in better shape.
And so my goal was I was gonna run a half marathon.
So I needed to choose a cue.
So what I would do is I'd put my running shoes next to my bed so I saw them as soon as I woke up and that became a cue for me.
and i would i would run before before work so that's a visual cue i was using a visual cue also time of day also i would lay out my my clothes so it's very easy to get into my running clothes okay and it's good to have more than one cue one of them's really going to be the powerful one but you don't
know ahead of time what it might be oh so you're i like that so you're peppering in a few cues right see one of these is going to stay one of these is going to stick one of these is going to stick and it turns out it was the shoes um like when i'm traveling if i put my shoes next my running shoes next
to my bed. That gets me going.
And then I needed to choose a reward for myself.
So instead, I didn't run every day.
Instead, I only ran on days when my wife was going to bring the kids to school that day.
So that I knew that when I got home from the run, I could take a nice long shower.
I could have a nice smoothie with breakfast.
So did you intentionally think about the shower and smoothie as rewards?
Absolutely. So it wasn't just, oh, I'm sweaty after the run.
I need to shower. It's like, I'm going to be sweaty and I'm going to really enjoy that shower.
I'm going to give myself an extra three minutes.
Like normally I'd rush through the shower.
I'm going to let myself enjoy the shower.
And this really makes a difference, doesn't it?
It makes a huge difference because if we decide something is rewarding, it becomes more rewarding.
You can think of stress a little bit like this, can't you?
It's how we perceive things that often determine whether they're stressful or not.
If we perceive it as stressful, it is.
If we don't, a lot of the time it ain't.
No, that's exactly, and if you think about it, like you and I and our children, they did not, they were not born thinking that getting an A on report card is something they should feel good about, right?
They only feel good about it because we've told them, you should feel really good about this.
We constantly tell ourselves what we should find rewarding.
And when we grab a hold of that and we take the power for ourself.
Now, here's the one other thing with starting a new habit.
So the first day that I woke up, I saw my shoes next to my bed, never run before.
I put on my clothes, I walked outside and I walked for one block and I came back and then I took the nice long shower.
And then the next day I walked like two blocks.
And after a while, you get to this point where you're like, okay, I'm walking a couple of blocks.
I might as well like jog a couple of blocks and I might as well run, you know, like half a mile.
There's this thing known as the science of small wins.
And oftentimes the way that we change is nonlinear, right?
We find something that's unexpected that makes it easier for us to change.
We find a reward that we didn't anticipate.
It's these little experiments.
And when we see change as a series of shifts, and it's okay for those shifts to be small, then what we're doing is we're freeing ourself to learn from ourself, to learn from our patterns.
And so that's how I ended up running a half marathon.
And then a marathon was literally just by taking it as these small little incremental improvements.
Well, first of all, congratulations.
Thank you. Wonderful achievement.
um i i love this idea about small wins yeah it's it's really interesting i have found through years of clinical practice that the best way to help a patient turn a new behavior into long -term habit is to start small i've just seen it through trial and error i thought when they make it really big, it
kind of happens for two or three weeks and then it falls off.
Whereas when I start small and once I honestly made a trade with a patient, I say a trade, an agreement that she would meditate for one minute a day.
And that one minute became five.
It became 10. It became 15 over a course of four to six weeks.
Because initially she was like, I don't have time.
I said, okay, do you have 10 minutes?
No. She said, do you have five minutes?
Well, no. Do you have one minute yeah I've got one minute I said all right okay let's start there and it was only when I met Professor BJ Fogg and he shared with me some of the science on small wins and we had this this awesome aha moment where we both figured out that he'd come to that conclusion from the clinical
research I came to that conclusion from real life clinical practice and trying to figure out what works.
But these small changes when done consistently, they help to build momentum.
That's exactly right.
And so I wonder from your perspective, you know, what is momentum?
Is there any science behind momentum?
Because it feels to be this really powerful, energetic force that if we can harness it, it kind of moves us in the right direction.
Here's how I think about it.
I think of it as we are convincing ourselves to believe in another version of ourself.
So there's this idea known as keystone habits, that some habits are more powerful than others, because when we build a new habit, it triggers a bunch of other changes in our life.
For some people, exercise is a great example, right?
And probably everyone who's listening has had this experience.
You exercise in the morning, and for some reason, you also eat healthier that day, right?
Like it's easier to like like eat a salad rather than the hamburger when you walk into the cafeteria.
We also know that when you exercise, other things happen.
You procrastinate less.
You tend to use your credit cards less often on the day that you exercise.
Wow. We're not aware of that.
But I think what's happening is that for many people, exercise is a keystone habit.
It changes other patterns like eating patterns and spending patterns.
Because even if I think of myself as someone who's disciplined, there's a part of my brain that isn't listening to what I tell myself until I prove it to myself.
And so I might know that meditation is great.
I might say like, of course, I've read all the studies.
Meditation is so good.
I should definitely do that.
But until I prove to myself that I can meditate and that there is some reward that it's giving me something, my brain basically thinks I'm a liar, right?
It's very skeptical until I prove it.
And this is what Keystone Habits do.
They change how we see ourself.
We start thinking, I'm the kind of person who runs in the morning.
And the kind of person who runs in the morning, they eat a salad for lunch, right?
They don't pull out their credit card for anything.
They make wiser decisions.
I'm the kind of person who meditates in the morning.
And that kind of person, that's someone who can find five or 10 minutes, right?
They're mindful. What's one of your keystone habits?
Exercise. Exercise is a big one for me.
And what's interesting is for people who were not athletes, the reason why exercise is so powerful as a keystone habit for some people is because if you weren't an athlete and you start running or you start exercising, it forces you to think of yourself as a new kind of person.
It forces you to see yourself in a new light.
Now for people who were athletes as kids and then they take some time away and then they start running again, oftentimes exercise is less of a keystone habit for them because it just conforms to their mental image of themselves.
But for me, exercise is a huge part of it.
Going to bed, I am someone who used to stay up till midnight, you know, every, and like my wife - You're a writer, hey?
Exactly, exactly. It's what rites us do.
Right, I'm supposed to.
And my wife goes to bed at like 9 or 9 .15.
And so I go to bed at 9 .30 with her.
And that's a keystone habit for me.
Like it makes me feel like I am in control of my, I am making good choices.
I'm setting up the next day for success by going to bed early.
And again, it's the story that we tell ourselves, right?
Stories are so powerful.
We start to tell ourselves a story about ourselves.
Yeah. And that's how change happens.
let's say someone has just heard that and is thinking about a keystone habit for themselves and thinking, because I would agree, I think it's an excellent thing to pay attention to, which is that one habit that when you do it automatically means that these next five things are gonna be better.
Exactly. Always been thinking about that with my patients.
It's trying to figure out, you could tell them 10 different things, but what's the one big one that when they get that right, those other things are going to happen automatically right all on their own for me it is my morning routine right when I do it even if it's a cut down 10 -15 minute version of it
I'm basically showing myself yeah you know what it doesn't matter how busy the world is or how much stuff you have to do with the kids or for your mom or your wife you know what I still make time for myself yeah I'm worth it yes right I can rely on me I can trust myself to say I'm going to do it and follow
through Oh, that's so wonderful.
That is such a wonderful way of putting that reward.
And I'm sure that makes it more rewarding.
I think it does. And I always, I'm keen to emphasize that I've been working on this for many years now because I don't want anyone to listen to this conversation and then suddenly go, wow, I need to try and do Dr.
Chachi's 45 -minute routine straight away.
It's like, hey, I was rubbish for a few years.
I'd do it for a bit, I'd fall off.
I just realized more and more that oh when I do it I'm a better human in every aspect of my life I'm a more patient husband yeah I'm more present with my kids I'm calm I'm more productive do you know what I mean it's absolutely so for me that's that's one of my keystone habits but a lot of people find
this stuff uncomfortable right so I wonder Charles what you would say to someone who goes okay I know what I want to do.
Am I going to find it hard forever or is it just going to be hard for a few weeks?
At some point, will it no longer feel hard and it will become automatic?
You know, how would you help them think about that?
So I'd say two things.
Number one is trying to figure out what your keystone habit ought to be.
One way that you can do that is ask yourself, what kind of change seems irrationally frightening to me, right?
Like when I, before I became a runner.
When I thought of running, it was a little like, I was like, I'm going to look terrible in those like spandex, right?
Like I look so goofy when I'm running.
Like, so it was irrationally scary.
That's a sign that this kind of change is, will be meaningful to you.
It's going to change how you see yourself.
Then the second part of your question, which is, will it be hard forever?
The wonderful thing is again, and back to the basal ganglia, there's a part of our brain that literally exists to make that pattern easier and easier and easier.
So is it going to be really easy on day three?
No, but it's going to be easier than it was on day one.
And by the time you hit day 21 or you hit day 30 or day 45, at some point, it's going to become a habit.
You won't even think about it anymore.
You'll just do it automatically.
You'll, you know, you'll put on your lace up your shoes, go out for a run, and you'll be looking forward to the podcast that you're listening to.
and it won't even occur to you to think about like, oh, this is hard.
It's like brushing teeth, right?
Exactly. Brushing teeth was not a habit when you were three or four or even five years old.
I mean, my kids are a bit older now.
Sometimes I'm not even convinced it's a habit yet.
But I think, I hope for most people listening, it is now a habit, right?
So at some point it does change.
And like I get out of the shower now and even if my teeth are clean, I have to brush my teeth.
I don't feel clean unless I have that minty feeling in my mouth.
You're exactly right.
Our brains exist to create as many habits as they possibly can.
It wants to conserve all the cognitive energy it can by making these behaviors automatic.
If you have consistent cues and rewards, if you're paying attention to those cues and rewards, then each day it will get a little bit easier, almost imperceptibly easier.
But on day two, it'll be easier than day one.
And on day 21, it's going to be easier than it was on day two.
And at some point your brain takes over and it just becomes a habit.
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