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Hey guys, it's us, the Jonas Brothers.
I'm Joe.
I'm Kevin.
And I'm Nick.
And guess what?
We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas.
We invented a podcast?
Well, we didn't invent it.
We just contributed to it.
We're the first people to do podcasts.
We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions.
Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know.
Tired and sick.
Tired and sick.
Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Just listen.
We don't care where you hear it.
Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy.
Not quite.
On Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends.
Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.
This week my guests SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter.
Where does your group perform?
We do some retirement homes.
Those people are starving for banter.
Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on.
A Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman.
Multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets.
A billion dollar fraud.
But how long can this alliance last?
Tell me what you know.
Is somebody coming after me?
Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeart Radio.
Good morning.
This is Laura.
Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
So today I am delighted to welcome Helen Tupper to Before Breakfast.
Helen is the co-author with Sarah Ellis of the new book, Learn Like a Lobster.
So Helen, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much.
I'm excited to talk.
Yeah, well, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
Well, I run a company called Amazing If and we have a mission to make squiggly careers better for everybody, which is really the idea of non-linear becoming normal, which has been talked about for a while.
But what we tend to find is that often individuals don't have the skills to make that possible.
What are the skills I need to manage my squiggly career?
And organizations aren't always set up to support them.
So in our work we work with large companies all over the world to support skills and structures for squiggly careers.
And along the way we've learned a lot about learning, which led to our third book Learn Like a Lobster.
And I'm sure everyone listening to this is like, what on earth?
A lobster?
Like, so why a lobster?
Well, I'm going to say why learning first, because I think that is the most important thing.
So, on this sort of journey on Squiggly Careers, what we have seen is that the people that are most adaptable at work, the people that are most resilient to change, the people that create the most opportunities for their career, are the people that are most able to learn at work.
And it's sort of an easy thing to say, but it is not an easy thing to do because people say well, I kind of get, I need to learn, but I don't have the time to do it.
Um, I find it too hard to work out when in my week I'm supposed to add on learning when I've already got so much to do And there's so much to learn in my organization outside of my organization.
It's just so overwhelming.
And so we've got this sort of tension between well, the people who are most set up to succeed are the people who are most able to learn, but the majority of people are finding it too hard to do.
And so we're trying to solve that tension.
And what we recognize is that sometimes we need role models.
Sometimes we need these people who just know how to do it brilliantly.
And unfortunately there aren't loads of people at work who've learned brilliantly today, but there are lobsters.
And what lobsters do brilliantly is they grow.
They are inspiring in how they grow.
So First of all, they never stop growing.
They have something called indeterminate growth.
So they grow and grow and grow until the day the lobster is no longer here for whatever reason.
And the way that never-ending growth is enabled is they have to shed their shell.
So their shell becomes a constraint to their growth.
They recognize that they feel that tension.
And rather than stay safe in the shell, they shed it.
And that is a really hard, vulnerable process for the lobster.
It takes a lot of energy.
And when they shed that shell, they're very exposed.
They look like jelly, like a jelly-like lobster, and it's high risk but high reward, because the reward is a new shell grows back and that shell is bigger and better and stronger than the one that they shed.
And they do this on repeat.
And then the third fact is that the shell that they shed does not go to waste.
They are very, very resourceful.
They eat the shell that they shed to fuel the next phase of their growth.
So they've basically evolved this self-sustaining system for growth.
And so what we are saying to people is you can evolve a self-sustaining system for learning, where you never stop learning because you learn as you go, rather than waiting for a day for learning to happen.
You learn in your hardest moments, when you are vulnerable.
You know when you fail or when you get that feedback that makes you go.
Oh, that was hard to hear.
But that's when you learn the most because that's when the lobster grows the most.
And you lead your own learning.
Like the lobster fuels its own growth by being adaptable, by being a brilliant beginner, by connecting, by sharing.
All these things are in our control.
And so that's why we've written the book, because we want people to succeed in specific careers.
Learning is a very helpful way to do it.
And lobsters are our way into looking at learning differently.
I love it.
I love it.
Well, I love that you talk about the time there.
I mean, obviously, this is a time management podcast.
And I'm sure a lot of people hearing this are like, yes, I need to find time to learn.
And you suggest that that's not the right way to look at it.
Instead, we need to be learning from the things we are already doing.
So I'm wondering if you could talk me through like in a typical workday.
What would that look like to learn from things you are already doing?
Yeah, so I guess framing here is, rather than looking at learning as something that has to be added on, you are looking to add it in.
And so the obvious ways that you add this in are things like meetings.
Lots of people are in meetings.
So how do we add more learning into meetings?
In conversations.
We're having conversations as a recurring part of our working week.
What those, I would also say, spot the situations, the situations you're in regularly.
So first of all, if we're going to add it in, I would think about meetings conversations, situations in an average week, and then some simple ways that you can add more learning in um.
One is experiments like experiments are.
They're like ready made for learning because they.
An experiment is not about Thank you, does it work or doesn't it work?
It's not really that.
It's what do you learn from doing something differently?
And so we take these conversations, these meetings, these situations and we deliberately do something different, but with the desire to learn from it.
Now that could look like agendas.
So one of the things we write in the book, we write about decision discussion agendas.
These have massively changed my meetings.
I've learned so much more from doing this.
So traditional agenda, if you even have an agenda, so many meetings just happen without agendas.
And then you kind of get into a different question about why we're having this meeting.
But let's imagine there's an agenda.
Traditional agenda tends to look like a list of things that you and me should talk about, Laura.
Maybe with AOB at the end, just to cover stuff that we forgot to say. bit of time at the end.
And it's not particularly focused and people just kind of work through it and try and fit it in.
A decision discussion agenda is I think, is a better use of time.
Now, the point is experiment and learn whether it works for you.
But the way that this works is at the top of the agenda you have.
What are the decisions that we need to make today?
And having those at the top is a real focus for people's attention.
And also, if there aren't any decisions, you might question, do we need to have this meeting?
Is this something we could just do over Microsoft Teams, for example?
So you have the decisions at the top and then you have the discussion items.
But what makes this different is you frame the discussion items as a question.
Our brains are very attracted to questions.
We almost can't help but think about a question.
So, rather than just a list of questions event X, project Y, budget B you would say how do we make next month's event the most memorable the team have ever attended?
And how do we operate the plan on a 10% budget cut?
And you frame it as a question.
And that is even better if you can send that out in advance can be super organized, because then people think ahead of the meeting and you have a higher quality conversation rather than people trying to work out what the intent of budget B actually is when you see an agenda.
And so there are so many experiments that you can do in meetings that you are already in.
And the point is to run the experiment.
You can do it secretly.
You can do it openly, but run the experiment.
And then to reflect. because it's when you reflect that you really log the learning.
Loads of, you can literally ask yourself, what did I learn?
But my favourite simple reflection tool is to do what, so what, now what?
So what was the experiment?
So what did I learn?
And now what am I going to do?
And if you compare a very simple experiment that's already in the work that you're doing with some very fast reflection, you will automatically learn much more from your work.
Absolutely.
All right, we're going to take a quick ad break and then I'll be back with more from Helen Tupper.
Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?
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Think podcasting can help your business.
Think I heart streaming radio and podcasting.
Call 844-844-I heart to get started.
That's 844-844-I heart.
We're starting a trend.
But this one's extra special.
So how did we actually come up with the name Hey Jonas, guys?
I honestly don't remember.
I think it was on a call about what we should call it.
We were thinking of originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers.
This is how you guys remember it going down?
Yes.
I have a very different memory of this.
We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast where people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas.
And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast.
But thanks for remembering that, guys.
Listen to Hey, Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Just listen.
We don't care where you hear it.
Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy.
Not quite.
On Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends.
Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.
This week my guests SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter.
Where does your group perform?
We do some retirement homes.
Those people are starving for banter.
Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself.
I'm Renee Stubbs and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis Podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garros.
Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay.
I mean, she went down to three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted.
She's an outsider to win the French, right?
And she likes clay.
Listen, Lena Rabakina is arguably the best player in the world right now.
And I actually can win on any surface because if she's serving well, good luck.
Consider this your courtside seat to the French Open.
Listen to the Renee Stubbs Tennis Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.
Well, I am back talking with Helen Tupper, who is the co-author of the book.
Learn Like a Lobster, Accelerate Your Growth, Achieve More at Work and Advance Your Career.
So, Helen, you also talk about learning in hard moments when we are shedding our shells.
And I think this is somewhat difficult because a lot of people get very sort of defensive in moments of learning challenge.
So how can you sort of manage yourself to be still open to learning in situations where it's clear that something has gone awry?
Well, yeah, we know that people find this hard.
So in the book there is the idea of learning as you go.
Learning hard moments lead your own learning.
And we've got a profiling tool that about nearly 8000 people have taken now and it helps them to see what lobster they are most like.
And the lobster that people are most least to be like is the learning hard moments.
Lobster like people find this really hard.
So just to make it more tangible, I think some very common hard moments at work are feedback feels exposing like the lobster and failure feels dreadful.
No one loves it.
And people flippantly say, oh, you know, you can learn from failure.
But it feels horrible.
It feels, I mean, people avoid it.
They stay safe because this feeling of failure is so awful.
And so we need to make it easier.
There's so many different ways.
Maybe I'll just talk about two, one connected to feedback, one connected to failure.
So let's start with failure first of all.
Failure, I think, is too big a starting place.
When we're thinking about learning from failure.
I think the word failure is too.
If you are in a situation where you feel like you've failed and you haven't developed the muscle to learn from failure, it's too hard to start there.
So the way we tell people to develop this is to start smaller.
And a small failure is also known as a mistake.
So it's much easier to start learning from your mistakes than it is to learn from your failures.
Also, you have more mistakes.
We all have lots of mistakes.
So there's lots of sort of ready-made learning waiting for us.
So mistake moments are something that you can do on your own.
But I think it's even better if you can do this in a team environment.
So I'll talk about how we do it.
We use Microsoft Teams for the way that my company runs.
We have a channel on Microsoft Teams called Mistake Moments.
I saw someone on my team put one in today, actually.
And Mistake Moments is part of our language in our company.
So, whenever you make a mistake, the rule is within 24 hours of you making the mistake, you have to share it.
Have to share it.
And so you have to stop worrying about it.
Stop turning this sort of, you know, molehill into a mountain in your mind and you have to share it.
And that gets the weight off you and it puts it into an environment where other people can support and everyone can learn.
So the process of a mistake moment is you share what the mistake was.
So, for example, a mistake someone made in my team today was we were in a meeting that we weren't as prepared as we should have been for
And we both reflected afterwards that that was a mistake moment.
And so she's typed, this is the mistake moment.
This is what happened.
Then you have to type, what did I learn?
Okay, so, you know, I learned...
To gather some more information in the emails that I've got and make sure that was shared.
Various things.
And then what you get, like I said, is you get the support.
The individual has processed the moment and turned it into learning.
And then that learning is shared beyond the individual.
So everyone gets better.
And so you can do mistake moments on your own.
But I think the power of the learning is better when you're doing it in teams.
So that's a really, really useful way.
Builds up the learning muscle so that when a failure happens, you've almost got that trigger of I need to share, I need to reflect, rather than the fear of the failure.
So that's one.
And on the feedback, there's so much with feedback that I could talk about.
But I think one of the things that we see a lot where our response gets in the way of learning from feedback is when someone gives you feedback.
So if you gave me feedback now, maybe I wasn't expecting it.
What a lot of people do is rush to respond, because they want to show you that they're going to do something.
They're slightly panicking.
They're just rushing to respond to the feedback.
And what we want people to do is to pause for thought, to create space between what someone has shared with you and how you are intentionally responding, going to respond to it.
Because often the response is the default.
And then the learning doesn't happen.
The learning happens in the pause.
So pause the thoughts.
I'm hearing what you're saying.
And the first thing is we call it think, feel, do.
So the first thing is, where do I think this person is coming from?
Are they trying to help me?
Have they got my best interests at heart?
Are they having a bad day?
Like, Are they just a super critical person?
Like, where is this person coming from?
That's the thing.
The second is the feel.
How do I feel about this feedback?
So you're probably aware there's a bit of psychology around name it to tame it.
So often that default response is emotional.
Whereas if you can just process, like, how am I feeling?
Oh, I'm surprised that Laura said that about me.
Or...
I'm feeling embarrassed that we didn't show up in the way I wanted to in that meeting.
If you can name the emotion, you can take back a bit of control.
And that means the do becomes intentional.
Like, what do you actually want to do?
Maybe what I want to do is say...
Appreciate you sharing that with me, Laura.
I'd like to go away and reflect on this and come back to you.
Or maybe what I want to do is say, oh, I wasn't aware of that.
I might want to ask you a question.
But that becomes an intentional response rather than a default.
And so it's just mistake moments and think feel, do are both ways that we can just learn a little bit more from situations that can feel quite hard.
Absolutely.
So let's talk about, I mean, giving other people feedback.
I loved one of the framings you had in it is using the language of brilliant, because that if you're giving like positive feedback to somebody instead of just like good job, which is which is hard to do anything with.
Talk about what this brilliant because looks like.
So I think lots of people confuse praise with feedback.
And I'm not saying praise is bad.
Like we all we all need a stroke every now and again, particularly when it's hard.
It's nice for someone to say, oh, great job.
Love that podcast.
You know, that was great that we need that.
But in terms of learning, like feedback that fuels learning, praise doesn't really do it.
It creates an emotion, but it doesn't necessarily lead to learning.
So you can start with praise.
So I can say, oh, I love that podcast episode, Laura.
I can start with that.
But for learning to happen, I need to give you a bit more detail.
And so brilliant, because it's like this connecting statement that I think, if you use it, it can almost become habitual.
So I might say, I love that podcast today, Laura.
It was brilliant because I thought you really asked the questions that I was thinking about and that I didn't think anyone else would ask.
And so you're like, oh, so it's a quality of my questioning.
That's the thing that's really connected.
And it's just a forcing function. for adding a little bit more detail and data.
And that is the thing that people can learn the most from.
Absolutely.
So let's talk about leading your own learning.
You had a lot of sort of cute names of practices on these things.
That makes them a little more memorable.
I'll give you the feedback of that.
It's brilliant because it makes it more memorable.
So, for instance, like beginner bingo.
Yeah.
What is beginner bingo?
Okay, so yeah, in Lead Your Own Learning, we have these seven different ways that you can lead your own learning.
And the essence really is like, take control.
Do not wait for learning to happen.
Create it for yourself.
That's what this part of the book is all about.
And so beginning is one of the ways that we can create more learning for us.
But it can often feel hard for people to do because it can, again, it's like the hard moments.
They can be quite vulnerable to be a beginner.
You know, if you're an expert in one area, suddenly to do something you've not done before and other people see that you don't know what you're doing, it's quite exposing.
It can also be quite overwhelming, because going from knowing nothing to becoming knowledgeable, that can be a wide gap.
Like, for example, I've started gardening this year.
It is a very wide gap that I'm currently on from knowing nothing about gardening to maybe growing something this year.
And so beginner bingo is about breaking it down.
So you want to take the goal, which is, let's say gardening, because it's easy to get our heads around, or you could take AI, because it's probably more relatable.
But I want to be proficient at using AI in my work by the end of the year.
That is a big goal for learning.
So we want to break it down.
And so I actually use AI quite often to do beginner bingo for me.
So I'll say come up with 12 small firsts for how I can use AI more at work.
I might give it a bit more context.
Like I run a company, we do career development, I might give it a little bit more insight into me.
And so then I will end up with these 12 small firsts.
And Beginner bingo is basically saying every week or once a day.
If you're that committed, you're just going to tick one off.
You're just going to try and create bingo.
And the idea of ticking it off, breaking it down, creating some momentum.
I always think doing creates dopamine.
And beginner bingo is like.
Every time you tick one off, you're kind of creating that buzz in your brain that makes you want to do more.
And if you do 12 small firsts on your beginner bingo chart, you've actually logged quite a lot of learning.
And it's a lot less overwhelming than just saying, I want to get good at whatever the thing is.
Yeah, making it a game can always make anything feel more like you're making progress.
Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break and then I'll be back with more from Helen Tupper.
I'll see you next time.
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Think I heart streaming radio and podcasting.
Let us show you at I heart advertising.com.
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Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what?
We have some big news.
What's the news?
Huge news.
We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas.
We invented a podcast?
Well, we didn't invent it.
We just contributed to it.
We're the first people to do podcasts.
Yeah, a pretty wide range of podcasts.
We're starting a trend.
But...
This one's extra special.
So how did we actually come up with the name Hey Jonas, guys?
I honestly don't remember.
I think it was on a call about what we should call it.
We were thinking of originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers.
This is how you guys remember it going down?
Yes.
I have a very different memory of this.
We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast where people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas.
And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast.
But thanks for remembering that, guys.
Listen to Hey, Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Just listen.
We don't care where you hear it.
Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy.
Not quite.
On Humor Me with Robert Smigel and Friends.
Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.
This week my guests SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter.
Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself.
I'm Renee Stubbs and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis Podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garros.
Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay.
I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted.
She's an outsider to win the French, right?
And she likes clay.
Listen, Lena Rabakina is arguably the best player in the world right now.
And I actually can win on any surface.
Because if she's serving, well, good luck.
Consider this your courtside seat to the French Open.
Listen to the Renee Stubbs Tennis Podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.
Well, I am back talking with Helen Tupper, who is the co-author of the book.
Learn Like a Lobster, Accelerate Your Growth, Achieve More at Work and Advance Your Career.
So, Helen, I always like to ask my guests a bit about their own personal productivity practices.
Do you have any sort of morning routine that you think helps make your days better?
Well, I'm an early riser, much to my business partner's mockery.
So she's a late night person.
I'm an early riser.
But it basically just means we have very long days with lots of messages along them.
But I typically get up about half past five and I do that.
I think it's when I'm at my best.
Also, it's when no one else in my family is around.
I feel like I get this one hour window where I can think and sometimes I'll journal.
And it's quite sweet.
My nine-year-old daughter has started journaling.
So it's quite sweet.
We'll kind of do that together.
I feel like she's motivated by that now.
So sometimes I journal.
I will try to read in the morning.
I find that...
And it's very hard for me to fit reading in later in the day because it always seems to be competing with my work.
Whereas in the morning before work gets started, I, yeah, I can do that.
And it's so nice.
I'm in the UK and the mornings are getting lighter at the moment.
So I sat on my sofa this morning and I was reading books a lovely book on my sofa, like watching the light come up.
And it just sets me up.
I feel like there is something in how I feel.
It's a bit of an achievement because I know that was a choice.
And it was a choice to start my day like that.
So I feel a sense of achievement.
And I also feel like work hasn't dominated everything.
My work is quite dominating.
I love what I do, but I feel like at that moment I made a choice to do something different and I'm sort of you know better because of it.
So the Yeah, that sounds like a lovely little morning routine.
I'm curious with your business partner and co-author, given that you guys do have such different schedules, what is the process of co-authoring something or working together, like when you keep different hours?
Oh, my gosh.
Well, we are three books in, and this... this process worked the best.
So I think the first time our business wasn't as big, the first time we wrote a book is in 2018.
And so honestly, we had more time.
And so I don't think we really experienced that much of an issue with it.
We sort of luxuriated in the writing process.
And then our second book came out during the pandemic.
And that was hard because it was all virtual.
So it had its kind of, you know, it had to be very scheduled.
It was all virtual.
This book was hard because our businesses got a lot busier.
And so it was competing, writing the book was competing with the time.
And there was definitely a point of tension where I'm quite a speedy worker, I suppose.
Like I have a task, I want to get it done.
I'll write 10,000 words and I'm like onto the next.
Whereas my business partner is highly thoughtful, highly reflective.
She would take my 10,000 words and say only 1,000 is good enough.
Yeah.
And so there were definitely these moments of, I'm very efficient.
She wasn't telling you it was brilliant because... No, she was like, those thousand are great.
These 9,000 need to go.
And as I'm a very efficient person, and so then you get into this...
Oh, this is time wasting.
And she sees it as additive to the book.
So it was definitely put attention.
So we actually got to a point when we were writing where we decided to sort of just draw back a moment and think where do we both add the most value to this?
And where is our energy?
And basically, we decided to reshape how we were doing the book.
So Sarah would do the first draft.
So we'd work out the key messages together, the structure.
Then she would do the first draft and she would for a week, she for a week.
She would write that draft because she enjoyed that process.
She's very good at going deep.
I ran the business.
And then we both critiqued each other's work.
So at the end of the week, I would take all of her work.
I'm a fast reviewer.
I'm a quick thinker.
I'm a quick builder.
So I could add value there, had much more energy.
She could quickly kind of look at what I've been doing in the business, give a bit of steer, share some ideas for things.
And for about six weeks, we completely changed our roles in order to do our best work, because our bigger picture was like what's best for the business.
And that is that we can write a good book and we can run a good business.
And so we've got good at doing that with each other.
Now figure out what you're best at and run with that.
So Helen, I always ask my guests what is something you have done recently to take a day from great to awesome?
It's very random, but it is taking many of my days from great to awesome.
I've got chickens.
I've got chickens.
Chickens, all right.
Not lobsters, chickens.
Yes, yes.
I'm probably not going to put the two together.
But I've got chickens.
I live in a forest and I decided to get chickens.
And I just went outside just before this to get some fresh air, because I've been in my office all day.
And the chickens flew to me.
And, you know, when you have a meeting, you're like, oh, I'm not sure about that meeting.
And then you go outside and some chickens fly to you.
Like, this is great.
I can go back.
I take that energy into whatever else I'm doing that day.
So, yeah, seeing them in the morning, part of the morning routine, like I go and feed them.
They're very happy to see me.
And, you know, of course, they are going to feed them.
They think you're brilliant because you're bringing them the feed.
I mean, it's a very fickle source of affection, but it is quite nice in a day to just start and end your day with some flying chickens.
Yes, I love it.
Well, hopefully the work that it takes is worth it for them.
Yeah, yeah.
So Helen, where can people find you?
They can find me on LinkedIn just Helen Tepper on LinkedIn.
Regularly share career tips and support there.
And also the podcast, the Squiggly Careers podcast.
Excellent.
Well, Helen, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you to everyone for listening.
If you have feedback about this or any other episode, you can tell me it's brilliant because.
But you can also just give me feedback in any other form you would like.
You can always reach me at Laura at LauraVanderkam.com.
In the meantime, this is Laura.
Thanks for listening.
And here's to making the most of our time.
Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
If you've got questions, ideas or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at LauraVanderkam.com.
Before Breakfast is a production of iHeart Media.
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