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Therese, thanks for joining us today.
Thanks Kwame. It's so good to be here.
Yes, it's great having you.
So how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Sure. I'm a cognitive scientist at Seattle University and I try to help smart people be smarter at work.
It's that simple. And what that means in terms of the ways that I do that, I give talks, I write books.
I do consulting. I'm basically trying to take smart research and turn it into great practice and people are hungry for what is better practice and what does the research have to say?
And I try to package that in a way that people can really use at work.
That's fantastic. And I respect that because my undergrad degree is in psych. And I can get really lost in the studies and then afterwards I say, well, what do I do with this?
And so it's great to see that you're actually taking that literature and turning it into practical advice that people can put into use.
Yeah. I'm with you.
It's fun to read, but then you step away and you forget the studies because you can't actually make it actionable.
So I really tried to take the best research that's out there and say, okay, if you were gonna use this at work, what would you do?
And I try to put it in practice in my own work, not just proselytize, but actually what does it look like when I try it?
Yeah, this is great.
Well, fantastic. Well, listeners, the three things we're gonna focus on today.
First, we're gonna talk about common mistakes that managers make when they're giving feedback.
Then we're gonna move on to talk about how to truly give helpful feedback instead.
and then lastly, how to solicit better feedback from your manager.
So let's start off with the juicy stuff, mistakes.
Share stories, tell us about it.
Aww, there are so many mistakes that we make when we're giving feedback.
Most of us aren't trained.
You know, I know you have a law degree Kwame, plenty of people get law degrees and MBAs and advanced degrees, and yet they still like, nobody ever trains them how to give feedback.
I'm doing a program right now at Oxford in their business school.
And all the different things we talk about we never talk about how to give feedback.
So it's really common that this is overlooked.
So, my book talks about a bunch of different mistakes that are all avoidable, but I'll just talk about three here today that are really common. So one common mistake in giving feedback is you don't do it.
You just don't give the feedback.
There's a recent study showing that in the United States approximately 21 % of managers admit that they just don't give the uncomfortable feedback.
They avoid the conversations altogether.
So that's a disaster if you're a CEO or a president, right?
Think about that. You've got 100 managers, 21 of them are just skipping the hard conversations.
21 teams, right, that means 21 teams are just crossing their fingers and hope they improve.
You know, they're being robbed of the opportunity for feedback.
And so I wanna change that.
I want to... And I understand people don't have the training.
People wanna be the nice guy.
they, they don't want to be the one who has to say the hard thing.
There's so many reasons why people will skip the hard conversation.
You might not want to crush someone's spirit spirit, especially during COVID, right?
People don't want to reduce morale and motivation.
Um, it happened to me last fall.
I had hired a freelance designer and she provided her initial designs and they were really off the mark, right?
They were, they were not what I wanted.
And my first thought was like, Oh, you know what?
I need to hire somebody else.
And I got back online.
I'm like, Oh, I need to hire a new designer?
And I was like, wait a second, give her the feedback, give her the chance to improve.
It's so easy to write it off as this person can't do this.
I need to turn to someone else or I need to give the job to someone else.
So that would be one of the biggest mistakes is simply that people don't give the feedback.
This is really, it makes so much sense, but it's so scary too, right?
Just how many professionals out there that aren't getting the proper feedback.
And you're a psychology nerd just like me.
So let's let's play with this for a little bit, because of course, there's there's going to be the side of they were never taught how to do it.
Right. But there might be that thing in the back of their head saying, hey, I should probably talk to them about their performance, but there's something holding them back.
So for the people who have some kind of emotional or psychological barrier to having these conversations, what advice would you have?
Would you give them?
So picture yourself in the and the other side of the conversation.
and you're the person who's not being given the feedback.
If you knew your manager had something to say to you that they saw a place that you could improve and they didn't say anything, what would be running through your mind?
You'd be thinking, you know, don't they believe in me?
Do they think I'm too sensitive?
Do they think I can't take it?
Have other people noticed that I'm underperforming in this way?
Maybe they're not the only one who's noticed, right?
So if you can flip, if you can take the other perspective, you would be mortified to find out your manager has some great piece of advice or concern and they're skipping it so one of the things you can do is try to imagine yourself on the other side of the equation what would how would i feel if my manager didn't do this so that can be helpful to get you there i think part of the problem is our own discomfort with how the other person is going to react right um there's a great episode of the office i don't know if you're a fan of the office but there's a great episode, you are okay, good.
There's a great episode of the office where Michael needs to tell one of his employees that his fiance Angela is having an affair with someone.
And Michael thinks about it.
He thinks about it all day, right?
When am I gonna tell this person.
And what he ends up doing is they're walking to the parking lot together.
And Michael as he drives away, unrolls his window and says, Angela is having an affair.
As he drives away so that there's no further conversation.
It's not work feedback, but that just illustrates the discomfort that someone can have with giving bad news.
Then that gets mingled with we think the other person's going to have a terrible reaction.
So we over hypothesize as to how they're going to react.
The honesty is, most people are silent in the face of critical feedback.
They're surprised by it.
They realize, I knew that was coming.
I knew that didn't go as well, and they're embarrassed.
But most people don't have a really strong reaction.
They're usually looking for guidance.
So a good thing to know is, people are probably going to be much more passive than you expect.
So don't hold back for that reason.
You can help that person improve.
They want to improve, and like I said, put yourself in that other person's shoes and it'll help you get past whatever obstacles you're running into, your own discomfort.
That's great, I love this, and I love the office.
So that is a great, great example.
So yeah, so tell us more.
So we had the one mistake, people just don't give feedback.
What else? So another one and okay, let's say, let's say you're in that 80%, you're like, Teresa, I do give feedback, I'm gonna go.
I've got, in fact, a feedback conversation tomorrow.
A common step that people skip is they don't say their good intentions out loud.
This is something I talk about in my book, but I haven't read in any other feedback books, but it's the Jedi maneuver is to say your good intentions out loud.
So first let's talk about why don't people say they're good intentions out loud.
So what's really interesting here is we assume the other person believes we have good intentions, but what the research shows study after study is that when someone brings them bad news, we assume the bearer of bad news has malevolent intentions, right?
and maybe you've had this experience.
So you go to the doctor's office and your doctor, you know, you go because you have what you think is a small problem and your doctor says, oh, this could be serious.
You know, we need to do a bunch of tests.
I need you to come in for two follow -ups.
We'll do the first test. You come in in two weeks and I'll have you come in in two months and I'll have you come in at six months.
And what do you think?
You're like, Oh my gosh, my doctor just wants a whole bunch of visits, a whole bunch of co -pays, right?
Instead of thinking, this person is trying to take care of me.
They're trying to catch this problem early before it becomes huge, before I have to go on medication.
It's just a perfect example of how we assume negative attentions, even when that person is literally trying to take care of us, right?
I don't know if you can relate to that example, but I sure can.
I've had that experience with doctors before.
There's plenty of research showing when somebody brings us bad news, we shoot the messenger, we assume negative intentions on their part and research. there's a great study by Leslie John.
She's a management professor at Harvard. And one of the things that she did, she made it completely random.
She had people draw a little slip of paper.
Her research assistant would draw a little slip of paper out of a bag.
And the person, ahead of time, the person in the experiment would say, I want you to draw a 1, 2, or a 3.
So let's say they said, I want you to draw a 1.
And you draw out a 3 instead.
It's totally random what number you draw out of the bag.
And when you say out loud, oh, you know what?
I drew a three and that person doesn't get money.
That person assumes that you tried to draw the wrong number.
Can you believe this?
It's totally random.
All they're doing, and you get to see them.
They're in front of you.
They're drawing it out of the bag.
And yet you somehow assume negative intentions on their part, even though it's random.
It's just remarkable how we fill in the blank.
We scribble in negative intentions for people.
And so this is a mistake that managers make.
We don't realize that people are going to assume the worst when we have bad news for them.
They're going to assume that we like the power or that we want to make them feel bad or that we're just, we're not paying attention to how hard they're working.
There's just so many negative intentions that we'll scribble in.
So that's one of the big problems is that we don't say our good intentions out loud.
Well, this is great.
So let's do a little bit of a mini role play, a mini role play.
I like it. So I will be me and you can be you, and so I'm gonna give you some feedback.
So, Terese, I've really enjoyed having you on the podcast thus far.
On a scale of one to 10, you have been a 10 out of 10 thus far, but there's been one thing that you've overlooked and I think is really important.
You have not said the name of your book yet.
You refer to it a lot.
You haven't said the name, so there's your feedback.
There's my feedback.
That's great. Yes, so here's my book.
Whoo. let's talk. It just came out.
Thank you. That's great feedback.
Okay, so what might be the negative intentions that I would describe?
So I could jump to negative intentions, like I might assume like, oh, he's more concerned about his listeners comfort than he is with my comfort.
But I'm assuming positive intentions, you want me to promote my book, right?
Because I'm, I know you're in my camp.
But it would be really easy for me to jump to negative, like, Oh, he's more, like I said, he's more worried about his listeners than he is about me, right?
Yeah. And we go there, we go there very quickly.
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This is great. And, again, it's something so simple in, like, to understand and to execute on.
But if you don't know, you don't know, right?
Exactly. And so, people just don't do it.
And it feels... And I've got to tell you, so, you know, someone might be listening, like, I'm going to try this.
I'm going to try this.
I'm going to try to say positive intentions, it's going to feel awkward. It feels a little artificial.
I'm going to admit that right up front.
I did it last week with someone where he was gonna start working with a really high -profile new client and he had done so much research that I thought the client was gonna be intimidated in the first meeting, right?
Because he had done so much homework.
He seemed like more of an expert than the client did, right?
And I was concerned that he was gonna create a bad impression, like that he was a little overzealous.
So what I said to this colleague, instead of just going right to, you know, I'm afraid you're you're going to look overzealous and obsessive.
I said, I really want you to make a good impression on this new client.
And it's clear you've done so much research, you've worked so hard on this.
I want to make sure that they see this in a positive light, all this extra research that you did.
And then he was so curious about what I had to say next.
Now, he was really invested and it felt kind of artificial to say those things out loud.
But I've got to tell you, I turned what could have been a high conflict conversation into he was super eager to hear like, oh good.
Yeah. I did do all that research. Okay.
How could I frame this so that they don't misinterpret it?
And it, and it became a really positive conversation.
So if it feels a little awkward, it's not surprising.
Just try it. It's a Jedi maneuver.
It works. I love this.
And, and let's actually, I want to operationalize this deeper too, because I think.
Let's think about our own biases from our own perspective, because we might go ahead and say, yes, this is, this is the positive intention.
right? Would it be at all beneficial to kind of anticipate the possible negative assumptions that they have and intentionally frame your message to counter those specific negative assumptions they might have?
Yeah you could definitely do that.
So let's say you're concerned, you know, so there would be things I wouldn't say.
So, one of the common negative perceptions that employees can have is that this is a power move.
So I might not say that.
I might not say this isn't a power move, right.
So there are some that you probably wouldn't wanna say but let's say you are asking for someone to turn something in sooner than you'd originally agreed upon.
So let's say that originally you were saying, I need a draft of those designs by next Friday and now you're coming to them saying, you know what, actually, can I could I get a draft by Wednesday, right?
To frame it, you know, to frame that as positive intentions to say, this isn't that I'm questioning your work, I know that you're an expert, and you're very detail -oriented, so this isn't about the quality of your work, it's just to ease my own anxiety.
And I want to make sure that we're on the same page, because I'm going to have some other meetings that day.
So I do like, if you can anticipate, here's how they might see it.
I wanna clarify, it's not X, it's actually Y.
I think that is a nice way to go.
But like I said, if you think that they think that the whole system is broken, right?
Don't say it that way.
Don't say that the system is broken.
And so I would think a little bit about how you wanna frame it.
Perfect, that makes sense.
Well, what is the third thing that people often do?
So the third thing that people do is that they lead with talking, not with listening.
And I think partly this arises out of a model that a lot of us, if you have been trained in feedback or if you do a quick Google search, you'll come up with something called the situation behavior impact model or the SBI model.
And that model, if you're familiar with it, is to say like, here's the situation, here's when something happened, here's what you did, and here's the negative impact that it had.
And this is a common model that people will go to, and it offers a lot of clarity.
So that's what's good about this model.
The problem is you're leading with, I'm doing all the talking.
As a feedback giver, I'm doing all the talking.
And what I find is much more, that puts people on their back heel, right?
They're immediately in defensive position.
What I find is much more effective is to lead with listening, to lead with asking questions.
There's a great study by Zenger and Folkman where they were asking employees to rate how good their manager was at giving feedback.
And there was one thing that predicted employees perceptions that their manager was a great feedback giver.
You know what it was?
It was simply that their manager asked for their perception first. So before the manager gave any feedback, they simply said, how do you see it?
How do you think that went?
How did yesterday's presentations go?
How did yesterday's presentation go?
What did you think?
What were you pleased with?
If the employee gets to control the conversation first and you're just listening, that employee thinks you're so much more brilliant as a feedback giver.
They think you're better at giving feedback.
Even if you're going to say the same thing, whatever you were going to say, it doesn't change a bit.
If you listen first, that person thinks you're now a better feedback giver.
So it's a really simple thing that most of us, it's very easy to skip.
If you've got feedback to give, you feel like you should launch right into it.
And instead, if you can hold off just a little bit longer and listen first, that other person's going to feel like whatever you've just delivered them is gold.
I think another way to think about it is that people think that feedback is about honesty when really it's about empathy.
And by listening first, you're showing more empathy.
That makes a lot of sense.
And it's so funny because it tracks really perfectly with our methodology for difficult conversations and negotiations and and really what this is is it's a negotiation of sorts because where we recognize that there is some behavior or an outcome that we would rather not be happening at this time and we want to persuade them to change their behavior right exactly it is it's it's it's it's an art of persuasion right and you may not think you know even the language we use giving feedback right it's as though it's like I got to I've got to say my thing and now I've given to you now, it's your problem,
right? A much better way to think about this is that we're navigating the feedback conversation, right?
We, we are having this together.
We're on a little journey, I'm going to say some things.
You're going to say some things.
I'm going to be listening to the things you say.
And if you think about it as navigating feedback, instead of giving feedback, you're already on the journey to having a better conversation.
This is great. Well, fantastic.
Let's, let's move on to the second point.
And that is how to give truly helpful feedback instead and I know we've probably touched on this a little bit but what are the key points that we need to keep in mind when it comes to actually giving good feedback.
So we have to, so just a couple that we've already touched on so one would be you need to lead with listening not with talking.
I can give a quick example of that I had an experience recently where a colleague got a really important detail wrong in an email to a client and I happened to needed to be corrected right away.
So I corrected it, I wrote an email to both of them saying, oh, actually it's this.
And then I thought, how do I give the feedback to my colleague?
Because what I'm concerned about is that she perhaps is creating the impression that she's bad at details with the client, which she's not.
But I'm concerned that maybe that's the perception the client is going to have is that she's bad with details.
And I thought about saying that, and instead what I did is I reached out to my colleague and I said, hey, is everything okay?
And she said, fine, just very abruptly.
And I said, okay, I'm glad to hear it's fine, but that's not like you, that mistake on that email is, you're usually very detail -oriented.
So I just wanted to check, is everything okay?
And she launched into how overwhelmed she was that her dad was sick and that she was juggling his medical issues along with her own work.
And I'm so glad that I went there because not only did we connect, which allowed me to understand better where she was at, but she raised her game over the next several days.
I've got to tell you, Kwame, she was amazing over email over the next several days.
She was really looking out for me.
And that was because I led with listening, right?
I asked questions. And instead of just leading with my, here are my concerns, here's the impact I'm afraid you're having.
And I held off on that.
And I'm really glad that I did, because she knew she'd made a mistake.
She knew it was a problem.
So anyway, so the first tip would be to lead with listening, not with talking.
Secondly, clarify your intentions.
You know, your good intentions will do a lot more good if you voice them, so just get them out there, and they can be as simple as I want good things for you.
I want this to be your best podcast ever, right?
Whatever it might be, right?
You would be surprised how happy the other person will be to hear your good intentions.
And then we get to the issue of what if you're someone who avoids giving feedback?
What if you're reluctantly admitting you're one of those 20 %?
A really helpful mindset is to take a growth mindset.
Have you talked about growth and fixed mindset on your podcast?
Yes, but let's do a quick revision for the audience.
Sure, so Carol Dweck is this researcher at Stanford developmental psychologist. and she has a great book called Mindset, Mindset.
What she's looking at and captures so beautifully is when we think about ourselves and other people, we can either have a fixed mindset or a growth mindset.
A fixed mindset is assuming that someone's states are traits are stable and unchanging.
And a growth mindset is assuming people are always improving and growing.
And we often think about, do we have a fixed or growth mindset about ourselves?
But we also have a fixed or growth mindset about other people.
know, when I work with you, Kwame, am I thinking, he's someone who's always learning and growing?
By the end of our conversation, he's a different person than when we started, or am I assuming he is who he is, right?
And researchers at the University of Texas at Austin found that when they encourage managers to take a growth mindset about their employees, when they thought of their employees as constantly improving, they were 63 % more likely to give that employee feedback than if they had a fixed mindset about their employees.
So simply believing that people will grow and improve and change leads you to have the conversation.
And it makes perfect sense, right?
Because if you think people are willing to change, then you're willing to tell them the thing that points them in the right direction.
Right. So essentially it's a self -fulfilling prophecy, right?
Either you believe they can change, then you'll help to change them.
If you don't, you won't.
Right? Exactly, it is.
It's a beautiful way of framing it.
It's a self -fulfilling prophecy.
If you don't say the thing that could help them, you're robbing them of the opportunity to change.
And sure enough, you're stuck with someone who probably isn't going to improve in the way that you're hoping.
Exactly. Fantastic.
Is there anything else we should know about helpful feedback?
There are so many good pieces of advice in my book, Let's Talk.
I like it. You like it?
Um, the one thing that I would say is, is another good motto to or, you know, mindset is make your motto no surprises.
A really common pattern I heard and I interviewed 60 people for my book, Let's Talk and a really common pattern was that managers would kind of sit on feedback.
They wouldn't avoid it, but they would just wait until the end of the year conversation when it was performance review time.
I interviewed one person who said that a year went by and he hadn't heard any critical feedback.
He thought was great and review time came and his manager reached behind and pulled a binder off of her shelf and opened it up and said, well, in February, you did this, turn the page.
And in March, you said this in a meeting and he's like, what, where, where did this binder come from?
So painful. Right. And, and you probably are thinking, I would never sit on feedback that long, but all too often we do sit on it longer than we mean to.
We notice something, and we don't say something right away, but instead we're beginning to think, oh, you know, Debbie, Debbie just is too introverted.
She's not going to make good management material.
And we begin to, to, to make up this list of like, yeah, no, you know what?
Debbie isn't going to make a good manager after all.
That's too bad. And we're not saying to Debbie, Debbie, I need you to speak up more in meetings.
How can we work on that with you?
What would make it easier for you to speak up in meetings?
Because you have such great ideas, right?
So we need to mention things, don't make it a surprise for Debbie at review time, that there's bad news.
she's not being promoted.
Yeah, oh, this is great.
This is great. And listeners, there will be a link to the book in the description too, because this is really helpful.
And I think there are gonna be listeners out there who are saying to themselves, wow, I have one of those managers who is not giving me feedback.
So let's wrap up the conversation by addressing that issue.
So what can people do to solicit better feedback from their own managers?
So this is such a common problem One of the things I heard most often from people throughout organizations, from entry -level employees to VPs, that they don't get feedback from their manager.
What they're told is, ''Kwame, keep doing what you're doing.
It's great. I love it.
No news is good news.'' This literally thinks that managers will tell employees.
I think it's probably gotten worse during COVID.
There was a great study done by Microsoft this summer.
They found that managers on average are putting in an extra eight hours a week in interactions.
on top of their normal workload because of COVID, that they need to be communicating more.
So I think to add to the problem, you've got managers are so busy they're not noticing, right?
They're not taking the time to give you the feedback you need.
So three strategies for trying to help your manager acknowledge, you know, you're acknowledging they're busy, you acknowledge that they may not notice everything, but you need better feedback than you're getting, right?
This vague praise is not helping you.
So three strategies and I'll go from the least aggressive to the most aggressive.
Okay? So, the easiest one, make it super easy for your manager.
Create a list of three or four things you're willing to work on.
Let's say your manager says, Kwame, just keep doing what you're doing.
You'd say, great. I've got a list of three, but I've got a growth mindset.
I want to improve. I want to be better at my job three months from now than I am today.
So, here are three things I could work on.
And you show your manager the list, and then you say, Which of these would you prioritize?
And now your manager will be like, oh, you are serious.
All right. And chances are your manager will come up with a fourth thing that you didn't even think of, right.
But you're giving your manager permission to get really specific.
You're allowing your manager to say, actually, what I would prioritize would be X or they may pick something from your list. But now you're at least you're on the same page, you're aligned as to where you should be putting your extra energy.
And I've talked with managers who, when they hear this piece of advice, they're like, I want my direct reports to do this.
I wish more of them would make it easy for me.
So that's kind of the simplest one.
The second one, if you are at a company where there's a rating system, a lot of companies have a one to five that employees are rated at the end of the year on one to five or one to three, where one is below expectations, two is meets expectations and three is exceeds expectations.
The strategy is what is a five doing?
Right? So basically, if your manager says, everything's great, you know, don't worry, everything's fine.
Just keep doing what you're doing.
Say, okay, that's great, but last time I was a 4.
And I want to be a 5.
So tell me what's a 5 doing differently.
Right? And now your manager may not have an answer in that moment, but it gets your manager thinking, like, I have seen 5s before.
What are they doing differently?
So this is a really nice way to, like I said, it may take a couple of conversations, but you're showing your manager you really are looking to move up in terms of your performance.
And then the most aggressive, and I have interviewed two managers who have taken this approach, and that is to say, am I promotion material?
All right? And what I've seen these two managers at least have told me that they've done is they've gone to their manager and said, I want to be promoted by the end of the year.
What do you need to see from me to put my name up for promotion?
And then they asked every month, every month they came back to their manager and said, are you seeing what you need to see to put me up for promotion?
Am I doing what you need me to do?
Is there something I'm missing?
And they kept coming back to it.
And as a result, they were able to get feedback to pivot and pivot and pivot.
And both of these employees got promoted at the end of the year.
Wow, that is fantastic.
That's really, really good.
I wish I knew this while I was working for somebody else.
Exactly. I wish I had been given that advice.
I had a boss. I went to her two months before it was promotion time, and I asked, are you seeing what you need to be seeing?
You know, I use slightly different language.
But I said, can you make a case for me to put me up for promotion?
And she was like, oh, no, I can't, and I won't.
You know, there's not enough time for you to do the things you need to do for me to put you up for me to make a case in two months.
Right. She needed she needed a longer runway.
Right. And so I wish I'd wish I'd gotten this advice sooner, you know, just start start asking a year out and it will show your manager you're committed.
Plus, your manager is now in a position where they can't surprise you.
Right. They need to be they need to be letting you know.
Exactly. Wow. Therese, this has been fantastic.
Let the listeners know again about the book and how they can get in touch with you.
Sure. So my new book is called Let's Talk.
Make Effective Feedback Your Superpower.
And it was just published by Penguin Random House here in January 2021.
And you can look me up on my website, teresehouston .com, or you can email me.
My email is on my website and I'd love to hear from people.
Fantastic, thank you so much. This was really, really helpful.
It was a lot of fun, Kwame, thank you.
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The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations.
Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better.
Your relationships will improve, your career will soar and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations.
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I'll catch you later.
you
