I never knew you could treat depression symptoms from your phone, but with this prescription app called Rejoin, it's possible.
It's for adults age 22 and up with major depressive disorder who want to add to their antidepressant medication.
And get this, it's the first and only prescription app authorized by the FDA to treat depression symptoms.
Rejoin does not replace your current medication.
Be sure to use as directed by your healthcare provider, and if your depression symptoms worsen, seek help immediately.
Get started today by talking to your healthcare provider or visiting meetrejoin .com.
That's meetrejoin .com.
Hey listeners, get ready to simplify your life with AT &T in -car Wi -Fi.
Stay connected wherever you go and transform your vehicle into a dependable Wi -Fi hotspot.
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Plus, with Wi -Fi for up to 10 devices, you can keep everyone entertained while on the road.
Work, stream shows, or finish homework without missing a beat.
Discover the convenience for yourself and see if you're eligible for a free trial at att .com slash in -car Wi -Fi.
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Wi -Fi hotspot intended for passenger use only when vehicle is in operation.
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Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio.
Good morning. This is Laura.
Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode is a longer one, part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and their advice for the rest of us.
Today, I am delighted to welcome Serena Bowen to the program.
Serena is the author of the thriller The Five -Year Lie, which recently hit number one on Audible.
And she's also a USA Today bestselling author of several romances, including the Brooklyn Bruisers series.
So Serena, welcome to the show.
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
So maybe you could tell our listeners just a little bit about yourself.
Well, I'm a full -time writer of fiction.
And sometimes it really freaks people out when I tell them that I write between two and four books every year.
And a lot of people think I could never do that.
A lot of people think, well, they must be really terrible.
You know, there's varying reactions.
I do possibly leave my house a below average number of times in a week.
So that's one, one way that that happens.
But it's something I always wanted to do.
And writing stories for a living is really a privilege.
And I just try not to forget that.
Absolutely. Because you had a career in finance before this, correct?
Right. Right. The business aspects of publishing have always been really interesting to me.
And I do spend an above average amount of time thinking about it.
Was it hard to make that career transition?
I mean, what sort of precipitated that?
You know, I just always knew that I would.
Like I knew that I was really interested in writing and publishing.
And I also knew that I went to school on deep financial aid with student loans that needed repaying.
But like I said, business has always been appealing to me.
So a 12 -year career on Wall Street was really kind of fun.
Like I learned so much.
And I don't regret it.
But I always knew I would leave.
Yeah. And so how many books have you written at this point?
Because you mentioned that, yes, novelists are often, especially you, are quite prolific.
And that may be something with the romance genre because the readers read a lot as well.
That's right. That's right.
But the other reason that it has to do with genre fiction is that I also write in series.
So I am not starting over every time I write a new book.
Like, I know something about the setting and I know the characters and there's like a greater storyline going on.
And that really does speed it up.
Like if you told me I had to write four books in a year and they were all unconnected, then I don't think I could ever do that.
So for something like The Brooklyn Bruisers, which is a hockey romance series, correct?
Like how many books would something like that be in a series?
Well, that one ultimately split off and became Ten.
Ten. Okay. That I started writing in 2015 and, you know, that series went on for like eight years.
So yeah, the working in a series just speeds you up and it explains a lot of the mystery of how I can write so many books in a year.
But you still need to come up with a lot of ideas.
I mean, even if you are inhabiting the same universe and have some of the same main characters, they obviously have to do something different in the next novel versus the one that somebody has just read.
So maybe you could talk a little bit about how you do come up with ideas.
Absolutely. I mean, it's honestly my favorite part because when you're at the idea stage of any project, you haven't made any missteps yet.
You haven't painted yourself into any corners.
The world is still your oyster.
You can go wherever you want.
And that doesn't mean it's always easy to come up with the idea that I need.
But the other thing that's really fun about this job is you get to lean in to your own fascinations.
There is a terrific author and researcher named Jennifer Lynn Barnes.
She is the author of a New York Times bestselling young adult series, but she is also a researcher in psychology and a professor.
And she studies fandoms and our engagement with fictional worlds.
And when she talks to authors, one of the things she talks about is keeping an id list, which means those locations and ideas and images that always get to you, that you always like.
She would use as an example in her speech that she likes rooftops and ice cream.
And every single book she's ever read has a lot of rooftop scenes and everybody always likes ice cream.
So whatever you like that calls to you probably calls to another reader somewhere.
And if you become very familiar with the things that really speak to you in a book, then it makes it easier for you to draw upon these things when you're stuck.
So another way I like to think about this is one time I asked all of my friends, what stories do you always click on in the news?
And I have like a list of these myself.
For example, I don't have any pets, but I will click on any story about a dog that had to go 600 miles to find its way home or something like that.
And I don't really have much to do with fine art, but I will click on any story about somebody who found a Rembrandt in their basement or an art heist or recovered painting that was lost for 50 years.
So we all have these grooves that we're always interested in.
I am particularly interested in cybersecurity and personal security and also privacy and the way that it's just changing so much.
So I will read Wired magazine from cover to cover every month.
So all of my own personal fascinations can make it into a book.
Like you mentioned the Five Year Lie in my bio.
That book has a really fun hook about a woman who gets a text and it doesn't make any sense because it turns out that that text was delivered months after it was sent.
And this is a real thing that happened in the news and you can look it up.
And so it's that kind of little story like I'll hear it.
Somebody told that story to me and that book did not come out for five years because I didn't know where it fit in.
But if you are somebody like me who needs a lot of ideas and who needs to use those ideas regularly, then you are well served to find a way to keep all of these things close.
So that means developing a notebook where you keep your idea.
So I have a page at the back of my planner.
It's called One Line Ideas.
And usually those things come from a news story like a police case that was resolved in a really weird way or a couple that met in a really strange way or just a one line idea as the page is called.
But then I also have a notebook for plots where every page is like a book idea, like a true plot.
And it doesn't matter how good these are.
And it doesn't actually matter if the thing that I start writing about on the first line actually turns out to be a good idea for a book or not.
Like I've got a whole page to sort of prove that it's interesting or prove that it's really actually not that great.
And when I am brainstorming, I will take this notebook off the shelf and I will page through it.
And invariably I will find some little drops of gold in there that I was like, oh, gosh, that really was a good idea.
And then most of my books end up being like two of these ideas.
And I just it maybe took me a while to realize that they go together.
That is amazing. And I love that they don't all have to be good ideas from the get go.
You're not saying like I'm only writing it down if it's going to be another bestselling book.
Like you don't know that going in.
No, what you write down are those things that like tickle you for a second.
Or you're reading the paper and you could just be scrolling, scrolling, scrolling.
But then you read a thing, you're like, wait, wait, hold on.
And then you write that down so you can save it to think about it later.
Or you give it 10 minutes of your time to like see if it wants to be something now.
But it's it's the act of stopping to say, hold on.
That's different. That's speaking to me.
That's interesting.
And to give yourself permission to recognize those moments so that you can sort of institutionalize a way of saving that stuff.
Because I don't know about you, but I can't remember anything.
Right. Like I'm giving you this long lecture about how to remember things.
And I'm just a total wreck like everybody else.
Like what's on my shopping list?
I've got no idea. And yeah, so another thing that I've had to do over the years is to recognize that when you are in the middle of writing a novel, which is somebody's like complete life story because they kind of all are.
You cannot give as much attention to other things in your life.
Like that occupies a really large part of your consciousness.
And if you want to write novels for a living, like you have to make your piece with that.
Like you just don't have as much left over because it's just a lot of work.
Absolutely. Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and then we will be back with more from Serena Bowen on her being so prolific and how she structures her time to get so much done.
I never knew you could treat depression symptoms from your phone, but with this prescription app called Rejoin, it's possible.
It's for adults aged 22 and up with major depressive disorder who want to add to their antidepressant medication and get this.
It's the first and only prescription app authorized by the FDA to treat depression symptoms.
Rejoin does not replace your current medication.
Be sure to use as directed by your health care provider.
And if your depression symptoms worsen, seek help immediately.
Get started today by talking to your health care provider or visiting meetrejoin .com.
That's meet R -E -J -O -Y -N .com.
Hey listeners, get ready to simplify your life with AT &T in -car Wi -Fi.
Stay connected wherever you go and transform your vehicle into a dependable Wi -Fi hotspot.
Powering applications like real -time GPS and voice assistant, navigation becomes a breeze.
Plus, with Wi -Fi for up to 10 devices, you can keep everyone entertained while on the road, work, stream shows, or finish homework without missing a beat.
Discover the convenience for yourself and see if you're eligible for a free trial at att .com slash in -car Wi -Fi.
Always pay careful attention to the road and don't drive distracted.
Wi -Fi hotspot intended for passenger use only when vehicle is in operation.
Compatible device and vehicle required.
Well, I am back. This is one of the longer before breakfast episodes where we interview fascinating people about how they structure their lives.
So Serena Bowen, who has written numerous romance novels, also a best -selling thriller author, is talking about how she comes up with ideas.
And you just mentioned, Serena, that you need to have the focus to write fiction.
Like you're not going to get as much else done in your life.
I'm curious what a day looks like for you and how you create this sort of mental space where you are focused on cranking out these books.
I mean, as you write, you know, say four of them a year.
Yeah, well, I knew you were going to ask me this.
The truth is that I wish I could come on this podcast and say, well, I am one of those people who writes before I look at Facebook.
Or, you know, I have never had my day blown up by opening my email inbox, but I am not that person.
Like I'm just as distractible and messy as everybody.
And there are when people also ask me when they hear everything about my business, like, oh, what percentage of it is writing and what percentage of it is business?
And I'm like, I don't even want to know because I fear the answer to that question is a number that, you know, would send me to drink.
I, on the other hand, the only way to write a novel is to find some immersive time.
And sometimes my solution for the evils of my inbox and they are legion is to get away from the computer itself.
So I find myself writing a lot on paper when I am in my notebook.
It is sort of like a special location in my brain that is free from other kinds of distractions.
And I guess I think differently with a piece of paper and a pen than I think when I'm sitting in front of my keyboard.
So I'm feeling free to get away from the computer is really important.
I think I would get a lot less done.
And the other thing that is really crucial to me changing gears because I think I've told you before that I'm not very good at shifting is something that we do in writing called prewriting.
But I think works in other parts of your life too, which is when you announce to yourself what you're going to do.
So when I sit down with that notebook, I might literally write on the page.
Well, chapter four is going to be a problem because I have to solve the matter of how he got into the house without revealing that the keys are lost.
So, you know, and then I will just talk it out, essentially, with my own, you know, struggling brain, because that is like a shortcut to getting the correct thing to write.
So writing itself is lots of things.
It's like, what is the plot?
But it's also what words did I use?
And you can't start three paragraphs in a row with the letter I and just it's what you could.
But are you actually writing out scenes then long hand?
You are in a notebook writing scenes in your novel.
Yes. But usually they start out as just little notes and then like here I'm solving the problem of how he got in the house.
Right. Or sometimes even when I and then almost all the time I end up maybe just scribbling out lines of dialogue and that starts moving things along faster.
So then I might actually on the next line write out a paragraph of description.
And suddenly I am actually writing the book, like without having intentionally made that transition.
So it's like tricking myself into producing the next piece of work, even when I feel that mentally I'm still considering the next piece of work.
And it's an accelerant because if you discard your first three ideas like, OK, so the first thing that happens is this and then oh no, that was that wasn't right.
OK, then actually the first thing that happens is this.
And if you fight it out a little bit, then whatever you go and write in the actual document is more likely to be correct and that I won't end up deleting it later.
So, you know, this isn't a bad way to solve lots of problems like how what is this project supposed to look like?
You know, anyway, it's it's it's useful and I have tried very hard to teach my children this, like how to write what you're going to do before you write the thing.
And it's I've had varying success.
OK, but do you in order to have this sort of immersive time, do you just start writing at a certain point in the morning?
I mean, do you have a work day that looks like a work day or do you kind of do it here and there?
OK, I would love to say that I was really good at that and I'm just not.
You start when you start.
Yeah, because honestly, usually it's it's my inbox.
Like I will look to see what's happened.
And sometimes the thing that's in there is like a big deal.
And I, you know, maybe it's somebody telling me, like, OK, here's your audio book back.
Here are all your files.
Now go upload it. You know, so I I can't plan my day because it's just it's never the same.
There are there are entire weeks that I spend all on business admin.
And then there are weeks where I just actually last week finished writing a book, which took me a little longer than I thought.
And the number of hours a day I spent just writing that book was such an extreme number.
And then you just sort of decided that the business stuff would happen later.
Yeah, I emerged from that cocoon.
Right. I had no choice and I really had to turn up my words per day meter.
And it kind of it kind of stank, honestly.
Like it was really hard.
But but I did it and I hadn't had to do that in a long time.
So at the same time, when I was done, I had the satisfaction of looking at that production and being like, you know what, if you really have to do this, if it has to get done, look, you just did that.
Like, yeah, that is a word count that you wanted to you finish the novel and turned it in.
Like if you had asked me one month previously if I was capable of writing the last 20 ,000 words of a novel in four and a half days, I would have laughed.
Like, no, that is never happening.
But then that's what I had to do.
So yeah. And you did it.
All right. Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break and we will be back with Serena Bowen.
I never knew you could treat depression symptoms from your phone, but with this prescription app called Rejoin, it's possible.
It's for adults aged 22 and up with major depressive disorder who want to add to their antidepressant medication and get this.
It's the first and only prescription app authorized by the FDA to treat depression symptoms.
Rejoin does not replace your current medication.
Be sure to use as directed by your health care provider.
And if your depression symptoms worsen, seek help immediately.
Get started today by talking to your health care provider or visiting meetrejoin .com.
That's meetrejoin .com.
Hey listeners, get ready to simplify your life with AT &T in -car Wi -Fi.
Stay connected wherever you go and transform your vehicle into a dependable Wi -Fi hotspot.
Powering applications like real -time GPS and voice assistant.
Navigation becomes a breeze.
Plus, with Wi -Fi for up to 10 devices, you can keep everyone entertained while on the road.
Work, stream shows, or finish homework without missing a beat.
Discover the convenience for yourself and see if you're eligible for a free trial at att .com slash in -car Wi -Fi.
Always pay careful attention to the road and don't drive distracted.
Wi -Fi hotspot intended for passenger use only when vehicle is an operation.
Compatible device and vehicle required.
Well, I am here with Serena Bowen, who is a prolific novelist, written several bestselling romance novels, the recent A Five -Year Lie, which is a thriller that you can check out, number one on Audible recently.
So you read that one, right, Serena?
I really enjoyed the transition to writing suspense from romance.
It was, you know, it was a good time learning how to do something new.
Well, was it very different?
I mean, obviously, you're still constructing a plot and you're still coming up with good ideas and executing on those ideas.
So what, what made it different?
Like, what part of this involved shifting gears for you?
Well, in suspense, the promise that the writer is making to the reader is just different.
And you are promising the reader that you will trick them a little bit.
Like you have to give them some clues to go on, but then they get, they, they're allowed to figure out parts of it, but not the whole thing.
So you have this swinging pendulum of doubt that if you haven't put that into the book, then you have not written a thriller.
And that is a trick that I had to learn from scratch when I started.
And I, as I, as I go forward, I realized that I didn't understand it well enough when I embarked.
I mean, you know, I'd written an entire proposal in like a giant chunk of the book to sell it.
I still didn't quite understand the job until I got neck deep in it.
And then I had to figure it out in a hurry.
So. Well, and one of the tricky things about that, I would imagine, is you know what you know.
Right. But you really have to put yourself in the reader's head and like knowing what you know, but then making sure that they don't know what you know.
Right. And how are you ever sure because, of course, you know.
So I'm very curious how one threads that needle there.
Well, honestly, I have found and still believe after having written two thrillers, at least by now, because the second one comes out in May, is that your editor becomes more important with suspense because ultimately you need somebody to tell you how heavily or lightly you have shaded in any particular
thing. So that that second read from a cold reader becomes more important in suspense.
And I'm not sure there's any way around that.
Although if you ask me 10 years from now, can I learn to do that for my own books?
I might say yes because I have evolved that capacity for romance, at least like I can figure out what my readers experience is.
And maybe someday I'll be able to do that in suspense too.
I'm not sure. Yes. So I wonder if you could talk about a time management challenge you have faced recently and maybe how you address that.
Well, I have had this desire.
People talk about writing as a job you can do from anywhere.
And I have not in my life, and I'm, you know, a good decade into this job so far, experienced that to be true.
So when I was a little baby writer, only a couple of books in, I used to have to leave my house to get good blocks of writing done because I would look at the dishes in the sink and I would do that first and I was just unable to sit down in chaos and write for some reason.
So I would go to the library and I would feed the meter and I would have two hours and they better count.
And that is how I was productive.
But then I slowly transitioned into somebody who could work at home and I got really good at that.
But also the silence and the lack of stimulation around me became like my new crutch.
So I would like to be somebody who can travel and, you know, write on airplanes and write in hotel rooms and, you know, have a life where I get away from this place sometimes.
So that is what I'm trying to work on now.
And sometimes it's so easy to try technology as a crutch for solving these problems.
Like I bought the fancy Bose headphones and then I forget to bring them with me.
So I wonder, have you had any success of writing somewhere other than your house now?
I'm getting there. I mean, it started with me just really saying loudly, like, this is a thing I need to figure out and I don't know if I can do it.
And then having friends like ask me, you know, why is that?
Like, and it turns out it was less about cafe noise and more about me struggling to switch between tasks.
So if I am traveling, then I can't move my brain into a working space.
I'll just be thinking about the next thing we're going to do.
And then, like I said, I had this crazy crunch time deadline that I just survived.
And I had a business trip in the middle of it where I went to Philadelphia for two days.
And then I went to Toronto for one day and then I came home and my deadline is just inching closer by the minute.
So I really had to figure out how to write on the plane and how to not go down to the hotel bar and see people that I knew, but rather to lock myself away in the hotel room and work.
And, you know, the the needing to do it is what helps me understand that it was possible.
And hopefully under easier circumstances, I will be able to do it again.
Yeah, maybe when you don't have to crank out 20 ,000 words in four days or whatever it was.
Yeah, exactly. Well, Serena, what is something you have done recently to take a day from great to awesome?
Well, I have just begun taking ice skating lessons.
And one of the cool things about writing fiction is that suddenly everything in your life is research.
When I was a derivatives trader on Wall Street, this was not true.
It had the benefit of when you left the office, you really left the office like you were not required to think of your job, because at least at that moment in time, there was no way there was literally no way to do your job if you're not there.
So, but this is the opposite of that, which is that you can do any fun new thing and make it matter for work.
So, in this particular case, my husband had begun taking these skating lessons, because he wants to play hockey.
And I have skated all my life, but in circles like everybody else, you know it.
So, I realized that I had a character who was a skating coach in an upcoming book, and I thought, I don't know how skating coaches talk.
I can watch a lot of YouTube videos and probably figure it out, but here's this class.
It's $20 an hour, and I own the skates already, I'm just going to go to the class.
So, I did that, and it has been so much fun.
Like, first of all, today I finally figured out how to do figure eights on my outside edge.
Thank you very much.
And that has taken me a good month to knock out.
But just the appeal of doing something badly, it doesn't matter if I become a good skater.
It could not matter less.
But it's really good exercise and makes me use my mind in a brand new way.
And I also use my corporate credit card because it's research.
Exactly. It's all research.
All of life is fodder.
This is wonderful. So, Serena, tell our listeners where they can find you.
I am at Instagram and threads as Serena .Bowen, and my books are at all of the bookstores.
Awesome. Well, Serena, thank you so much for joining us, and thank you to everyone for listening to one of these longer interview episodes.
If you have feedback for me on this or any other episode, you can reach me at lauravandercam .com.
And in the meantime, this is Laura.
Thanks for listening.
And here's to making the most of our time.
Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at lauravandercam .com.
Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia.
For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
I never knew you could treat depression symptoms from your phone, but with this prescription app called Rejoin, it's possible.
It's for adults aged 22 and up with major depressive disorder who want to add to their antidepressant medication.
And get this. It's the first and only prescription app authorized by the FDA to treat depression symptoms.
Rejoin does not replace your current medication.
Be sure to use as directed by your healthcare provider, and if your depression symptoms worsen, seek help immediately.
Get started today by talking to your healthcare provider or visiting meetrejoin .com.
That's meet, R -E -J -O -Y -N, dot com.
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