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Please note that this week's podcast episode contains discussion about difficult topics like self-harm that may bring up strong emotions for some listeners.
If you feel that hearing this content could potentially impact your mental well-being, please skip the third question.
Hi, everyone.
Robin here.
I am about to be joined by Sam and I think I can safely speak for her when I say We are incredibly excited to be answering your questions today about how to be, still while wanting to check things off that to-do list.
Also, which comes first, the thinking or the feeling?
And we have an important question about forgiving yourself for past self-destructive behavior.
I'm telling you, we have got lots to say about all these topics.
Have you ever wished you had a wise meditation teacher on speed dial?
Someone you can call after a long day.
Someone you could lean on for their advice.
Someone to listen and help you to see things differently.
Welcome to Dear Headspace, a podcast where I sit with a meditation teacher and we answer your questions.
Hi, Sam.
Look at us back together again.
I mean, we are ready to do one of our favorite things, Gab, and answer listener questions.
Yes, guys, I'm so excited.
It's been too long.
It has.
It always feels like too long, even when it was like last week.
But that's the beauty, right?
Exactly.
Exactly.
Well, we are starting off with a bang today.
I mean, it's not really a bang as much as it is a chicken or the egg type question.
So I'm wondering, have I piqued your interest?
Oh, yes.
Yeah, I can't wait.
Okay.
All right.
Let's get right to Alessandra's question.
All will be revealed.
Here we go.
Hi, Headspace.
My name is Alessandra.
I'm originally from Italy.
I've been meditating with Headspace for a long time, meditated many, many hours.
I have a question.
I'd like to know what arises first.
Is it thinking or emotion?
So do we think of something and then those thoughts stimulate an emotion? and the emotion arises?
Or do we feel an emotion that arises spontaneously and then that stimulates thoughts related to that emotion?
Or is it both?
So that's my question.
Thank you so much for addressing it.
I'm really appreciative.
And it's not that important, but I find myself wondering sometimes.
Thank you.
Ciao, ciao.
I love the whole the whole vibe of Alessandra.
And also your question is important.
So that's that's first and foremost.
Any question is important.
It is.
And it's such a you know, it sounds like such a simple question, but it's a big question.
It is so big that it's a whole field of study.
And researchers have dug really deep into figuring out the nature of emotions, why we have them.
What is their purpose? why are they so damn annoying and hard to be with?
You know, they really are.
They're like the crux of our existence.
And I'm thinking about this question.
I'm thinking about the experience of being in line and being cut, like someone cutting the line.
So if we take a step back and we think about what causes an emotion, there's usually, according to researchers and this one that I really like called Magda Arnold, And she looked at the cognitive basis of emotion, like how cognition or thoughts affect the emotion that we feel.
And she said that we make these appraisals and they're so quick, they're so spontaneous that we're not consciously aware of them.
And the appraisals have to do with kind of asking ourselves or our brain makes an assessment like this is an affront against me.
This affects my goals, right?
Or it's going to harm me or benefit me in some way.
And as our brain is making those appraisals, that's what causes an emotion to arise, right?
Oh, interesting.
So in short, the thinking does cause the feeling?
She doesn't call it thinking.
She calls it an appraisal.
I think in this case, it's helpful to think of it as something so spontaneous.
It's not really a conscious thought.
Right.
Right.
Right.
That's an important distinction.
Yeah.
She calls it a sense judgment.
Like we're sensing and then making a judgment about what we're sensing happening in our environment.
But I was thinking about this whole cutting in line situation and I'm like, First of all, if one person cuts, it's not really gonna interfere with our goal of getting out of the store in a timely manner to a huge extent, right.
I mean, we're still gonna get out within...
I'm already over here like, it's the principle.
It's the principle.
I've already gone to the thing.
Right, right.
Because I'm so mad on behalf of whoever just cut me right now.
I'm like.
Right, exactly.
So your brain interprets it as like, this is against me.
This is personal.
And that's key and why we feel different.
Especially difficult emotions is when we perceive that what's happening in our environment is against us personally.
Right.
And that it interferes with our goals, what we're trying to achieve.
Even if it's just getting out of the grocery store in a timely manner, then it'll evoke a certain emotion.
And all that happens so quickly, right?
It really does.
Yeah.
So those are the external things that happen in our lives.
You know, someone cutting us off. on the freeway or, I mean, gosh, we can really name thousands.
We could go on for days about that.
Exactly.
But there are also things that happen within us, stimuli that occur within us that cause emotions, right?
So if you have what we call like automatic negative thoughts or intrusive thoughts, right?
And if you have an anxiety disorder or other certain mental health issues, these happen more often.
They can hit you so fast and then set off a mood state or a certain emotion that then acts as like a magnet for more thoughts memories experiences, to kind of gather around that emotion.
And then you're kind of in the tornado of rumination because of one thought, right?
That arose out of nowhere.
So that's why mindfulness can be so helpful in this regard, when it comes to thoughts, because I've had situations where I'm in the car.
I don't know if I've mentioned this story before, but I had a mood come over me.
And often the trigger is fatigue.
And I read more about this with people who've had a history of depression or anxiety.
The feeling of tiredness can trigger a memory of depression.
Oh, that's fascinating.
Isn't it?
So you interpret the fatigue as, oh, no, I'm getting depressed.
I'm feeling depressed.
Yeah.
Because depression and fatigue go hand in hand often.
Exactly.
And our brain, it's so important to think about it this way, is as an association machine.
It's constantly making associations between what happened in the past and what happened in the present.
And it's also trying to protect you.
Even though it doesn't seem like it worry itself or rumination itself Kind of, in a way, tones down the intensity of the immediate emotion you're feeling, because it's like you're telling your brain I'm doing something about this.
It might not be the most effective action, but you're doing something.
I am worrying and now I am fighting, so I am doing something about this.
Exactly, exactly.
So back to the situation where I'm in the car, I noticed fatigue.
I noticed the immediate feeling of, oh, no, this is depression happening.
I'm getting sad.
I'm getting like all these negative thoughts are happening.
And so I came back to the present moment experience and I started narrating what was happening.
I was like, OK, what's going on right now?
I'm driving.
My foot's on the gas.
My hands are on the steering wheel.
The sun's pouring in from the window.
I feel a breath.
And what I'm doing by doing that is interrupting the storyline.
You're disassociating from that link between the direct sensation of fatigue or the sensations of fatigue and the storyline that that means you're depressed or that you're getting into a mood state that's scary to you.
And the reason those links become so tied or so closely tied, is because your brain is trying to optimize survival.
So a mood state like depression, if you think about it, it can lead to isolation.
It can lead to your social ties being weakened.
So it is a survival matter, right, to a certain degree, actually to a large degree.
So even just knowing that can help you calm yourself, right?
You can say to yourself, oh, brain, you're trying to protect me.
I see that you're trying to protect me and keep me very vigilant about how I'm doing.
But right now, this is just what's happening.
This is what we know to be true.
We're fact checking, right?
Well, I want to ask you.
One part of her question that I found so interesting was she was like or does it even matter?
Does it matter or is it like?
You can use it as a red flag of like either I'm having the thought, or I'm having the feeling, or it would be good for me to do something about it.
Well, I think understanding how the brain works is really important.
And the more awareness that you cultivate, the quicker you are at noticing what happened when it happened.
And that, in and of itself, can be really helpful so that you can start using your tools like reappraisal and reframing, and narrating what's happening in the moment and taking deep breaths and connecting with the present moment.
Well, I absolutely love your answer.
And Alessandra, no question is a bad question.
I just want to remind you of that.
Thank you so much for asking that.
That was a good one.
Yeah, thank you.
All right.
Here is our next question from Jennifer.
Hello, dear Headspace.
This is Jennifer from Oregon.
I'm calling with a question about mental stillness.
I find myself interrupted in my meditation practice most often by thoughts of the to-do list, which is really just a reflection of what's happening during the day, when I'm being driven by the to-do list or weighted down by the to-do list.
So my question for you is do you have any tips for managing that?
While also honoring that?
It is part of my personality that I like to check things off the to-do list and have the decks cleared.
Thank you.
Listen, Jennifer, you had me at to-do list.
As we all know, I have about 14 of them running at any given time across all platforms, all devices, paper and electronic.
Very relatable.
I want to just call out that I love that she said, this is part of my personality.
Like there's an ownership of it.
Like this is who I am.
I like to-do lists.
I think that's a great place to start to not try to change yourself or fight with that tendency.
And when we're practicing, of course a to-do list comes up, right?
Our mind, again, is wired for survival.
And our to-do list is part of our survival.
It's part of adulting and what keeps us going and what keeps if you have family members, it keeps them on track.
And so if you reframe and say wow, my to-do list is coming up, because I care, because my brain's trying to keep me on track, then you kind of let go of the fight right off the bat.
You let go of the resistance and the judgment about it.
And I think that can be really helpful when you're meditating.
And then your mind will naturally stop doing it.
That's the power of observing.
Really, when we observe and we allow, the mind tires itself out.
It just goes through the motions and does it, and then it comes back to your anchor gradually gently, right?
And that can take some time if you're a beginner.
It might not feel so easy or automatic, but the observing piece, that part of the practice, is really underdeveloped in a lot of us.
We're such doers that it's natural to want to respond to the to-do list happening in your mind with more doing, by suppressing it, pushing it away, wondering why it's happening.
So yeah, that's.
I think one of the most helpful things that you can remember is my mind's just doing something.
I'm going to watch.
I'm going to watch it for a while, but also I don't talk about this a lot but, like sometimes, I'll have a little piece of paper next to me while I'm meditating, because sometimes a thought will come up that you don't want to miss.
You don't want to let go because it's, maybe it's a creative idea.
Or it's a really important thing you forgot about.
Yeah.
Yes.
And that happens.
That happens a lot.
And it's a great side effect of meditation.
So feel free to just open your eyes, jot it down, and then come back to your meditation.
If you're doing that a lot, then it can be too disruptive.
But if it happens once in a while and you really want to write it down, you know the way you Do.
It is also important.
So you feel the urge and you might want to act on that urge by opening your eyes right away, grabbing the pen, writing it down.
OK, come back.
OK, meditate, meditate, meditate.
Right.
So that's that kind of energy you know you can.
You can play with a little bit instead of like acting on an urge or reacting to an urge.
Take a deep breath.
You notice the urge, you notice the thought and then slowly open your eyes, slowly reach for the pen, gently write it down and then gently come back.
And meanwhile, that whole process, you're still practicing.
You're practicing being more gentle, being less reactive, being more responsive.
Yeah.
And slowing down, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That second part you were saying about the observing it I find particularly difficult and especially difficult if you are a to-do type person, if you are a person who is like you know, it's like I feel like that would take a little bit of work.
Yeah.
Well, one thing you can do is remind yourself this is only whatever time you set for the meditation.
This is only 10 minutes.
And this time is it's time for me to be with.
It's a very it's like reminding yourself that what you're doing is very different than how you usually are in your you know how you're running around in your daily life.
Hopefully the practice you know moves into your routines and into your daily life so that you are doing things with less urgency, less rushing, more ease, more presence right.
That's one of the goals.
But as you're getting used to this way of being, which can feel so different, like you're saying, from who you are, your personality, being really gentle with yourself and reminding yourself this is special time.
This is a unique period of time for me in my day to practice this really new way of being.
And you can say that to yourself during the meditation, you know, remind yourself of that.
Yeah yeah, that idea that by practicing just focusing on this one thing for 10 minutes might help me focus on things one item at a time as I go forward, is really compelling, to say the least.
Exactly.
You know certain mantras or this is where journaling comes in or affirmations that you've created from your own inner knowing, from your discovery of your tendencies, can be really helpful.
So one of mine, for example, is I refuse to rush.
The language around it sounds really severe and strict, but it's helpful to me to say that.
I'm not rushing.
I refuse to rush.
And that slows me down immediately.
It's my cue to slow down, take a breath, remind myself.
It's like a cascade, has a cascade effect.
It's like, because I'm not rushing, I can slow down and remind myself that I'll get there when I get there, that I'm doing one thing at a time.
So it leads to all these other more helpful thoughts and ways of being.
I also say to myself, I can only do one thing at a time.
I'll say that, or I'll say, what's the other one I use a lot?
Oh, when I feel the instinct to pick up my phone in the car, I'll feel that instinct.
And I go, and this came from my therapist where she said, notice when you're about to do too much.
And picking your phone up in the car and trying to answer texts.
First of all, it's very dangerous.
Please don't.
Please don't.
Yeah, no, I don't.
I noticed the urge.
I noticed the urge.
And then I say to myself, that's too much.
That's too much.
Sam, that is too much.
I love that.
Well, that was some absolutely wonderful, wonderful advice for Jennifer and quite possibly for me as well.
Thank you, Sam.
Thank you.
Okay, and here is our third question from Jason.
And I do just want a little reminder here.
This is the question where we're going to be talking a little bit about self-harm.
So if that is in any way triggering, you are going to want to skip this section of the episode.
Hi, my name is Jason.
I'm from New York.
And during my formative years, I had what I would call a toxic relationship with myself.
I to self-harm and do a lot of self-sabotage behaviors, and it really affected me for a really long time.
And so my question is I feel a lot of guilt, a lot of anger towards my past self and I can't really put trust in myself, with my own body.
That doesn't mean that I will engage in these behaviors, but I suppose it is a very negative feeling or aspect.
And I was wondering how meditation and self-compassion could help me trust and maybe even forgive myself.
Oh, Jason, thank you so much for trusting us with this question.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, um, You know, when I when I first think about what Jason shared, I think about the compassion piece and how what what connects me back to compassion for not just for myself, but for everyone, which is that the knowing, knowing that we're all brought here on this earth.
We didn't choose it.
Right.
Right.
We were dropped into a family.
We were dropped in with certain genetic predispositions, with certain tendencies, and we have to continually survive and play the cards we're dealt as best we can.
And just that in and of itself opens the heart.
There's this like, this is true.
This is very true.
And I don't know how old Jason is, but when I think about the things I went through in adolescence And how the journey of forgiving myself, it was definitely a journey.
It took years.
And it came from connecting with my inner child, connecting with that deep sense of compassion and love, starting with myself but then branching out to, of course, other people.
But when I think about it, I think about, you know, the adolescent brain and the, the fact that when our brains are developing, you know we are more impulsive.
We have a very hard time emotionally regulating because the emotions we're feeling are new.
They're intense.
And we have to cope and we might not have family members who understand us, which to me is.
I still have nightmares about that, about my family members saying like stop crying, stop feeling like your, your feelings don't matter.
It's such a scary experience to not feel seen or understood or accepted with all your big emotions.
And we all do our best to cope.
And self-harm is one of the ways that you know when we don't know what to do.
It's a coping mechanism.
It's, it's like a way of us being, or trying to deal with confusion that we feel.
We confusion about the intensity of the emotions.
So when you understand all of that, I think it becomes a lot easier to forgive that part of yourself and to forgive yourself completely, you know, because you were doing your best.
You're trying to figure out what to do with all of this, with all of these experiences that you're having.
So I just want to say something about coping mechanisms.
When we hear this word coping we might assume, or coping mechanism, we might assume that Anything we mention after is positive, helpful.
But there are many coping mechanisms that we use instinctively or automatically that are actually really harmful to us.
So I just want to call that out because, as we're talking about this, we want to really pick apart some of these assumptions that we have that just aren't true.
Absolutely, absolutely.
I had a therapist once who said that when we're younger, we can't blame the people who are raising us, because you would be unsafe.
You would feel unsafe.
So we tend to blame ourselves for all the things.
And Jason didn't say what their home life was like.
But if you are dealing with things within your family, with your parents or maybe not feeling supportive, it makes sense that you would turn it around internally.
And one of the things that I always think of is you can't be where you are today without having gone through what you went through.
And so I think that part of forgiving yourself is so important.
You know, I think we all had things in our past that were like Oh, I wish I hadn't done that as a kid.
I wish I hadn't, I wish I hadn't said that, or I wish I hadn't done that.
And you know what I always say to my kids is all you can do is is clean it up and then move forward.
And I think that applies to ourselves as well is just try to clean it up with ourselves and and then try to move forward.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that point that you made around parents and preserving their dignity so that we can survive is so, so powerful.
I remember learning that in grad school and going, oh my gosh, this makes so much sense.
Exactly.
And to see it through the lens of survival, to really look at everything we do when we don't understand it.
When I think of Jason's question, I think about times where memories, we talked about these automatic, intrusive thoughts.
They could be memories about things that you did that were really upsetting to you.
And what we can do in those moments is first greet it.
Like, you know, put the oxygen mask on, as we always say.
Greet it with compassion.
You put a hand on your heart and you go, wow, it's really hard to be having this memory right now.
It's really unpleasant or difficult to remember something so painful.
That's a moment of compassion.
And it also, again, interrupts the rumination cycle.
Like going down that path of like, oh my God, what does this mean about who I am?
I'm a bad person.
This might happen again.
What if it happens again?
What will I do?
How will my life be affected?
All these what if questions and scenarios are interrupted by this salve of compassion.
Like, wow, it's really hard to remember this, isn't it?
That can be incredibly helpful to know that you have that skill within you.
You have that voice within you.
And no one can take it away.
It's there.
It'll be there when you need it.
And it can greet whatever comes up like the most disturbing thoughts, the most you know it's like bring it on.
I'll love you.
So again that takes.
I've worked with a lot of people teaching self-compassion and I'm always humbled to realize how, what a journey it is to develop that.
I mean, especially if you're, if the way you were raised was pretty harsh, or you know, tough love, as people call it.
That's kind of like you know suck it up.
You know dry those tears.
Everybody's got problems.
Everybody's got issues.
Yeah.
I think we all often think about forgiving people who've wronged us, but we don't often think about forgiving ourselves.
And I think that that's might be some really great work for Jason.
To start on is I've used the forgiveness meditation in the app multiple times.
And it's I find it so helpful.
I'd be really interested to try it with myself and for Jason to try it with themselves.
Exactly.
Sometimes people equate forgiveness with letting go of accountability.
Yeah.
They think if I forgive myself, I'll no longer be accountable.
I'm letting myself off the hook.
Right.
And that's that feels scary, because you want to make sure that you're progressing and acting in ways you feel good about.
But remembering that I don't even know forgiveness is the right word.
It's like to me, a better word might be integration.
You're integrating forgiveness, the things that you did in the past, and you're allowing it to be part of who you are now, part of your story, part of your journey, part of your growth and your understanding of yourself and the world.
Part of your growth is also really brilliant because it is like I said you can't get where you are today without having lived through that.
That's part of the path that you walked.
Exactly.
Exactly.
What I found really helpful when I did training in self-compassion is to make your own affirmations or loving, kindness phrases, based on what you need.
So you do, and we have a practice I developed in the app, actually as part of the mindful parenting collection.
So it's one of the activities you can do where you ask yourself, what do I need?
Or what do I want to hear from someone I love?
What do I often want to hear?
And for me, when I did this exercise, what came up was I want to hear that I'm loved, that I matter.
Yeah.
And that my presence is desired.
I often have insecurity.
Like, do people like hanging out with me?
I like hanging out with you, Sam.
I like hanging out with you, too.
So I started to use that in an affirmation.
I started to say, like, may I remember that I matter?
May I feel loved?
May I trust?
That's a big word.
May I trust that I'm lovable?
Right.
Right. because sometimes the doubt is overpowering.
So it's great to make your own affirmations based on what you truly want to hear and need to hear, as a form of reassurance to yourself.
Yeah, that's fantastic.
And again, Jason, we just want to say thank you so much for just trusting us with that question.
It really is important.
And we do want to say to anyone who's listening If you are struggling with a mental health condition please please, please talk with a licensed provider.
And you can also find support resources on the Headspace Mental Health Resource page, which will be in the show notes.
And I do also want to say if you or anyone you know is having thoughts of suicide or self-harm, please call or text 988, which is the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
You can also call 911 or go to the nearest emergency room.
So we just wanted to make sure to leave you with all of that.
So, I mean, Sam, I do have to just say those were all such fantastic questions.
I mean, I have said it before.
I will say it a million more times that I learned so much from every one of these listener questions.
It's so true.
They just get better and better.
And they're not that we should judge them good or bad.
They're all good.
And they all lead to calling forth our experience, our knowledge, our wisdom.
So it's really a gift.
I see all these questions as a gift to us, but also to all of our listeners.
And thank you so much for your vulnerability again and your willingness to share.
It's so absolutely, and you know, before we go, we do have to give a big thank you to alessandro, jennifer and jason for trusting us with your questions.
It is, it is not something that we take lightly, and if you happen to be listening right now and you have something that you would really love some advice on, please just leave us a voice memo.
There is a link in the show notes, but in case you're all um, what are show notes?
Well, i will just give it to you.
It is say hi, dot chat, slash your headspace, You go there and you can record your question.
And if we are able to use it in the show, we will be giving you three months of Headspace for free.
That's awesome.
And I want to remind everyone that, as always, we've built into this podcast time for you to sit with all of what you just heard, time to digest all this great wisdom.
And it could even just be time for you to transition into the next thing on your to-do list today.
So today we're leaving you with a chorus of sounds from the jungle.
And while you listen, just let your mind do whatever it wants to do.
So till next time, stay happy, stay healthy.
And please be kind to each other.
Dear Headspace is a Headspace Studios original podcast.
It's produced by Robin Hopkins, Ash Jones, and Scott Sorenson.
It's executive produced by Morgan Selzer, Sarah Cohn, Barron Farmer, and Danny Karisamy.
Our production coordinator is Taylor Jennings-Brown.
It's hosted and produced by Robin Hopkins, Keisunga Giscombe, Dora Kamau, Samantha Snowden, Eve-Louise Prieto and Rosie Acosta.
Post-production is by Dan Kroll.
Music is by Scott Sorensen and Chris Mergia.
And a special thanks to Colleen Lutz.
