Arthur, the real reason I don't use dating apps is because I don't want to go about my love life in the same way I do.
Playing word or some game on my phone it's just weird to me.
You don't want to use the same technology that you would for goofing around while waiting for the bus that you do to find your actual life partner because it seems so incredibly important to you why would you.
Reduce the selection of or at least the initial selection of somebody who might turn into your life partner to the same technology that comes when you're just doom scrolling through Instagram is how you're saying it's just it just seems to trivial.
I almost feel like I'm cheating to get to a human being someone who I know is going to inevitably be far more complicated and emotional and.
The act of finding the person seems so diametrically opposed to what the experience of being with that person would actually be like.
And I think that's that's my reasoning and I know that's not everyone's and I can't speak for everyone under the age of 30 who maybe shares some degree of that sentiment but that's that's how it is for me.
This is how to build a happy life.
I'm Arthur Brooks Harvard professor and contributing writer at the Atlantic and I'm Rebecca Rashid a producer at the Atlantic.
Many of my students have told me that there's kind of an irony about dating these days.
They can get anything they want as consumers at the drop of a hat look you want to hip a pot of mist delivered to your house you can practically get it from Amazon prime but a lot of the same people who are amazed at that will confess that their dating lives are pretty dry.
They'll often say they don't know how to date in the right way that where it can be actually successful they don't know what the right procedure actually is or they're afraid of what will happen if they put their heart in line.
What explains this incredible irony where there's easier access to people all over the world but at the same time people are either less prepared or more afraid to engage in love behaviors.
Today we want to explore whether romance facilitated by technology has delivered on its promises and what it means to actually put the work into love.
I'll be straightforward about my perspective here and hear me out.
I believe a lot of emotional dissatisfaction in modern dating can be explained by research. There's data showing technology media relationships fall secondary to in-person interaction.
Other research suggests that romantic love can blossom when people explore their differences, something I fear dating apps often discourage.
It concerns me that many of these apps favor selecting romantic partners based on similar traits rather than complimentary traits.
Now look, I recognize that technology can create opportunities to connect and that there is research showing the success of online connections after they jump off the screen.
I also want to examine the potential hazards of a limitless nature of tech reducing human beings to options and perhaps even encouraging a certain degree of socially sanctioned game playing.
I know when you talk about it with your students, when I talk about it with my undergrad, so I teach classes about human sexuality and about intimate relationships and stuff.
When I ask them, do they use Tinder and some of them do and I ask them what they're using for and people are using Tinder to find love, not to find hookups, which is interesting to me, right?
My name is Umri Gilat, I'm a professor of social psychology at the University of Kansas.
I sat down with Umri Gilat to identify the satisfaction gap between what tech promises and what it often delivers.
The fact that it's easy and accessible doesn't mean that it's what people need. So they're going to be a gap between what the industry and the technology is going to provide us and what we actually need and between you know,
people are doing for money and what people are doing for, you know, the greater good.
The trends, the social cultural trends are out there showing that, you know, less people are getting married, less people are having kids, less people are having sex, which is, you know, kind of weird because you have this
kind of, you know, a lot of options, right? You can go on Tinder and just swipe and get your next, you know, hookup, but this final that less and less people are finding themselves in a relationship.
And one thing that I've actually seen day that I've looked at says that people are less likely to get married, but they're also less likely to cohabitate and as you suggested, less likely to have intimate physical relationships.
We're not substituting one kind of relationship for another. We're substituting no relationship for relationship. And that's what we really needed to dig into, right?
And you, you might say, you know what? Well, maybe people find their, you know, relationship somewhere else. You know, the world is like a small village. Now you can, you can have people, friends all over the world.
But this is not what we're seeing. There's so many people now that are lonely, they're looking for love, can't find it when they find it, they can stick with it. And it's definitely something that we're trying to understand and figure out the underlying mechanism of that and kind of trying to figure out what happened.
Yeah, let's talk a little bit about some of the big differences to make this vivid for our listeners and your work, you talk about how when you discuss your feelings with somebody in person versus when you discuss your feelings with somebody on on social media, it has opposite effects on this establishment of relationship talking about that.
And what we find this is work that I did was a former grad student and Joanne Lee, when you're, when you're self disclosing and you talk about your fears, your dreams, your fantasies, your secrets, all of these things to people face to face, right in person.
And it usually increases intimacy, increases satisfaction, help you build the relationship, people are actually over time getting closer. However, if you do the same thing online, right on things like, you know, Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, what have you, it has the opposite effect, right.
And basically, you know, people, by people we're talking about you as a person and your partner, having lower level of intimacy, lower level of satisfaction, you can feel like you're left out, right. We can sit together in the same room and you can tell me something or you can email into me and the effect is going to be very, very different.
Now, you remember in that famous, famous paper by Arthur Aaron, where he was actually trying to induce feelings of romantic love between strangers and he would bring it, he brought the experiments, wonderful experiment, he brought the strangers into the room, they sit across the table from each other, they start by answering 36 questions that are escalating and intimacy.
So the first one is something stupid like, you know, if you could have dinner, anybody you want, who would it be. And this is a nice breaker. But by, you know, question 30 is when was the last time you cried, which is the classic kind of question of self disclosure that you're talking about.
Yeah, I think again, technology can be very helpful, can help you with, for example, filter right up to the first date. But after the first day, it's got to be in person.
It's got to be face to face. You got to be able to smell the other person, see their, you know, body language, you know, we have, for example, research on fleeting.
It's so much easier to do fleering face to face and do it via the computer. And I think that we're happy to rely on technology. We're happy to even use it as replacement.
So, you know, one of the things that we've seen our studies is that people are now are using chatbots as replacements for friends and relationships. Have you ever heard about replica?
No, what's that?
That's a chatbot that was built by a group of programmers. Their friend was killed in a car accident. They wanted to replace him.
So, they took all of his, you know, social media information and created a chatbot and kind of kept on talking with their friend via the phone.
And now they give it to anyone. Anyone can use it and build their own replacement for a friend, a dead friend or an ex lover, what have you.
So, one of the things that you got to wonder is, is it really helpful? Is it really something that A, you can trust, B, you can benefit from and C, what happens to your information, who gets all of your secrets that you're so heavily sharing with this app.
And again, from our research, when you are dropping these things on a, on a bullet or when you're communicating, you know, like that online, you're not enjoying the same benefits that we see face to face with a real person.
I'm worried. It sounds awful. I mean, we've all experienced deaths in our families and, you know, the loss of people and people who have broken our hearts. And it's simply going to compound the pain, have a fake version of the person. There's a reason that people don't want that, right? There is this human element.
It's like the essence of life is love. It's what it means to be alive. And that's what we've, I feel like we're losing, especially when we're trying to match ourselves up to other people in actual love relationships using these anti human means.
So, yes, so think about the movie here, right? We're scarlet Johansson is is kind of like, you know, this amazing version of Alexa and the guys falling love with her and she really finds out that she's actually having relationships with all of these other guys at the same time.
You know, we're in my research now, we're doing some research on AI and trying to understand these chat bolts and understand what happens when, for example, they would do the art, our study and go through these 36 questions with an AI rather than the person what would happen then we're kind of wondering is that going to increase intimacy or is that going to make you look creepy and people would not want to engage in so.
Yeah, creeps me out just to talk about it, you know, particularly when AI starts to pass the touring test and you can fall in love with it technically.
I mean, is tech going to kill love dead?
Maybe already did, but you know, so I mean to take a horrible kind of example, I think about the atom bomb, they can be very good uses to it, right?
We can create a lot of energy clean energy and all that, but it can also obviously create the bones and this is why the reason why I talk about the atom, but you can talk about AI because that's another example that people are scared about and kind of like, oh my god, the robot's going to kill us and I think, you know, technology on its own is not better good.
I think technology can be amazing if you're for example highly anxious or if you're suffer from social anxiety and stuff like that.
So they're good size for sure. It's great, right? We can talk, you know, there are thousands of miles between us.
We can see we're talking about this interview because of technology, but it's same day, all of your relationships are online and all of your relationships are mediated via computers.
Then you're missing one big part of what it means to be human and human content.
Look, when you and I were our 20s and what do we want? We want to love and you would see somebody who you found really attractive and you go talk to that person. You know, a lot of my students will say, if you do that in a restaurant or a bar, they're going to think you're some sort of a weirdo.
Tell me what I can tell my kids and students that that they can do so that they can meet somebody in person. What's the solution to give up social media.
Yeah, that's one step. I mean, there's so much research about the damage that social media can do to you.
So in one of the studies that we did, we asked people to look at pictures of potential mates and they either looked at 10 pictures or 100 pictures with a text underneath or without it.
And you know, the more tender like environment where they had 100 pictures and without text calls them to look more in that kind of one dimensional objectify mode.
So you're losing a lot of opportunities to meet someone else who is amazing just because you're using this technology.
So some of our other studies are about doing these novel activities, you know, together. Right. So, you know, like high diving or, you know, I just recently started doing some triathlon.
So I get to meet a bunch of amazing people and do you think that we all love to do. And this is what I tell my kids to do.
You know, just try to kind of go back to basic be out there in the real world, enjoy the sunshine. Do activities with friends, you know, find groups of people that you enjoy.
Do some sports, you know, together.
So this is really interesting. So the, the admonishment that we should get off social media, young people should get off social media is different than how to meet people.
So the only thing I think that you're telling us now is that go do a thing that somebody else is doing and in doing that third thing together. And that's a very Aristotelian piece of advice, isn't it?
I mean, he talked about perfect friendships come from a love of a useless third thing. You know, I'll talk to young people who are traditionally religious, for example.
And I'll say, where are you trying to meet somebody like online and say, well, how about church? How about your synagogue?
How about looking for a young person who actually shares that which is not useless, by the way, but which is a third love, a third Aristotelian love.
So that's where you're talking about get out there, do more stuff, find other people who have the same kind of interests as you.
And that's a lot less threatening than walking up to somebody in a bar at one o'clock in the morning going, hey, you want to have coffee, which kind of creeps me out too.
Okay, back to Omri Gilat in a second. The first, a quick time out.
I want to offer up a sort of a new framework to think about tech and dating apps and their role in facilitating romantic connections.
This is oddly a sort of business school approach to problem solving. But hear me out.
There are two kinds of problems in life, complicated problems and complex problems.
They sound like the same thing, they aren't.
Complicator problems in life for problems that are hard to solve. But once you solve them, you can replicate the solution over and over, like making a toaster.
You can get one at Walmart for 20 bucks and it will be your toaster for the next 20 years. It's unbelievable, it's human genius. That's a complicated problem.
Well, all the really interesting problems in life, all the things we really care about are not about good toast. They're about human love.
These are what we call complex problems. A complex problem is like your relationship with your cat. Your cat is complex.
It wants kibble and a scratch and warmth and to go out from time to time. But you never know what it's going to do.
And that's because you can't really simulate the cat. So relationships fall into this category.
The category of complex problems. And that's why relationships are so hard to figure out. And that's why they're so interesting to us.
Here's the problem with tech in a nutshell, in my opinion.
We want cats, but technology just gives us toasters again and again and again.
Tech tends to take complex problems like human love and treated as if it were a complicated problem of trying to solve a bunch of math.
And it just doesn't work that way.
Okay, so let's say now that that somebody's had some success and is actually dating somebody. Fantastic. Right.
What's the goal in the first few years? One of the things that I have found is that a lot of people think, you know, they've seen a lot of Disney movies and they have sort of destiny beliefs and they believe in soulmates.
What they want is the passion from the very beginning to continue to the very end of what actually the data say is that you should be pursuing companion at love over passionate love.
In other words, best friends, that's the goal as opposed to just the passion, the white hot passion in the very beginning because the neurochemical cascade of falling in love cannot be maintained.
You'd go insane. And this gets us to really a huge area where you've been the major contributor in social psychology, which is attachment styles.
So tell me what's the goal when somebody is now paired up? What kind of attachment should be the ambition that gives the greatest likelihood of a successful, happy and enduring relationship?
Right. So, you know, often the beginning is around passion. Often people are very attracted to someone else, right?
They don't look at you and say, oh, you have an amazing attachment style. I definitely want you as the father of my kids or something. They see someone and they find him attractive or her attractive and they want to hook up and they want to have sex. And as you said, these are the honeymoon kind of phase of the relationship.
After that, it's more about finding someone who can understand you, who can support you. I would say, even if you drop the romantic love, the goal is to feel secure, the goal is to feel loved and appreciated and, and, you know, to know that you have someone in your corner that would be there no matter what there are some couples who staying very highly, passionately in love, you know,
and, you know, you know, you can't really be in love forever, right? It can happen. But for most of us, passion and sex would go down and attachment and caregiving would go up. This is what we see in many of the studies.
And that's kind of like just a normative way of relationships to evolve. However, you know, again, it was insecure people.
They're three styles, right? They're a secure style, which the majority of people are, then there are people who are avoidant, who don't want to be committed, don't want to be, you know, worried about other people, depending on them, getting too close and stuff like that. And then there are anxious people.
These are people that are all the time worried about preoccupied about being rejected and abandoned and people never love them as much as they love the, you know, the other people and so on.
So, you know, when you're insecure, either avoid an or anxious, everything is harder. The best scenario that can happen is that you find someone who's secure is providing security and can help you shift over the lifespan to becoming more secure than you were at the beginning.
You make it sound simple, but of course it isn't. And I think one of the key points that you're making along the way here is that you got to do the work. I mean, you actually have to take the risk and do the work. The idea of simplifying procedures on the basis of apps and tech.
Make it easier than it actually really is. And that's probably in and of itself doing a disservice because it says that finding the most important thing in your life is as simple as wiping right and it isn't like that at all. And that actually isn't even helpful for the beginning of relationship.
Right, right. In relationships, you know, it involved always will work and you know, people have this very strong sense of fumble right there's always something else that we might be fitting out maybe a better partner and more, you know, attracting partner or reach your partner or a more sexy part of what have you right.
If you live your life with that sense, you always going to chase the next big thing instead of being happy with what you have and actually enjoying it.
So this is tough advice that you're a tough prescription that you're giving young people today, which is honesty, vulnerability and authenticity.
I mean, and so basically if you're in love with somebody, you should say I'm in love with you.
If an edge, which is authentic, which is super vulnerable, if you're in love, say you're in love and take a risk, be an entrepreneur in your in the startup of your own love life. Is that what you're saying?
But what what he said, yes, absolutely, it like everything that you said is perfect.
In a way, from the moment that we are born, right, if you think about it from a touch perspective.
And we have this unconditional love from a mother, nothing is better than that. We need that we need someone and often this someone is our romantic partner.
We have an English teacher back in high school who said, you know, it's better to fall in love and fail than to never fall in love. And I totally agree with it. I think that, you know, you got to put yourself out there again and again.
And the worst thing that people can do is hide behind again all these screen. And then they find out that, you know, having this one dimension, the individual life is not fulfilling and is depressing.
And it's something that you got to, you got to be aware of it's you got to be prepared to deal with the consequences.
Make yourself vulnerable, put yourself out there, you know, experience the real world firsthand and be, be ready to put real working to it.
I get it. I mean, you know, like the selection of a life partner to be reduced to more or less the same technology as video gaming or shopping for socks on Amazon.
Right.
I get it. I get it. And you want to start off in a more profound way. Now, of course, I'm like I speak for everybody, but I would suspect that most people would say, no, I don't, I don't want to reduce, you know, love to shopping either.
But I got to meet somebody someplace and hope that it turns into love. So can you, I don't know.
The shopping analogy resonates because it dating apps really feel to me.
The same way when you go into the grocery store and you have one item you need to get like peanut butter. And you're like, okay, I just got to get in and get out. That's what I want. That's, it's very clear to me. That's the thing I need.
But as I'm shopping, I get more and more distracted by all the options. And I, I come out of the store with everything else, but the peanut butter.
Yeah. I mean, the research is pretty clear that dating apps, they do induce the paradox of choice, which means that you're, you're very likely to imagine a future where you're regretful of a choice that you made.
And so you keep shopping in the current moment. And therefore never really landing on somebody and ruling out a lot of choices that might be really, really good.
Right. On the other hand, you wouldn't say the only way I'm going to get peanut butter is I'm going to spontaneously stumble across it. And it's going to be the love of my life.
I mean, you got to find some way to get the peanut butter too.
Thank you to our how to listeners who make this show what it is. We asked when was the last time you confessed romantic feelings for someone. And here's what you said.
My husband of many years passed away unexpectedly almost four years ago now. And so I have found myself in the dating pool after about 20 years of being out of it.
In that time, I have confessed my romantic feelings several times actually just last week. I had reconnected with somebody I dated shortly after my husband died and it wasn't a fit timing wise.
And then we reconnected again a couple months ago. And so about a week and a half ago, we had a conversation in which we said, oh, maybe maybe things are getting a little too serious.
Are we able to do the things we need to do after we agreed that it would be good for us to each takes in the space.
I felt so sad. And as I investigated my sadness, I realized that I had fallen in love with him. And that I needed to tell him this.
And so I did. I told him. And he felt felt feels the same way. My name is Sean. And I live in British Columbia, Canada.
What a wonderful example of how humans are different than machines. I mean, it takes risk. It takes actual human interaction, which is what Sean is talking about.
Now she had to interrogate her feelings about why she felt so sad. There's no algorithm is going to tell her that she had to muster up the courage to go tell the man that she's falling in love with them.
That's uniquely weirdly human. Where cats, not toasters, Sean makes that point. Well, last note, I hope Sean and that man get together because happiness is love.
That's all for this week's episode of How to Build a Happy Life. This episode was produced by me Rebecca Rashid and hosted by Arthur Brooks, editing by AC Valdez and Claudine Babe, fact check by Anna Alvarado.
Our engineer is Matthew Simon.
