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Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio.
Good morning, this is Laura.
Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Today's episode is going to be a longer one, Part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and how the rest of us can as well.
So today I am delighted to welcome Olga Hazan to the show.
Olga is the author of a brand new book that is called Me But Better and about whether it is possible to change your personality.
So Olga, welcome to the show.
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Yeah, so why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners.
Tell us a little bit about you.
Yeah. Well, I'm Olga Hazan.
I'm a staff writer at The Atlantic Magazine.
I've been there for more than a decade now and I'm the author of two books, and Me But Better is my most recent book.
It's based on a magazine cover story that I wrote a couple years ago and it's based on my own personal experience of trying to change my personality for the better.
Which is interesting, I mean because you seem like a perfectly lovely person.
So I'm very curious what inspired this?
What made you think about changing your personality?
Yeah, well, thank you.
Also, yeah. So the way you seem to other people is one element of personality, but another element of personality is how you feel and whether you are able to accomplish your goals in the way that you would like and whether you enjoy your life.
And what I found was that often my reactions to things were sort of not helping me.
They were kind of holding me back.
So I would have a perfectly fine day but with maybe some minor setbacks.
In the intro of the book I talk about a day where I got a bad haircut and then got photos taken that didn't look good and then I got stuck in traffic.
And all of those things really just kind of ate away at me until I had this like huge meltdown that was totally out of proportion to what was going on.
And I kind of realized that variations on that happened kind of a lot and I wanted to see what I could do about that.
So that is kind of what started me out on my journey.
Yeah. I mean, do you think that's a common thing of people sort of having that tendency to melt down over, I mean, what are in essence, first world problems?
Yeah. I mean, so it's that tendency is related to the personality trait of neuroticism, which is basically just like depression and anxiety.
And a component of that is like this feeling that like you get overwhelmed easily.
Like when too many things happen, you're not like, bless this mess.
What a day! You're just like, oh my god, I can't take it anymore!
You know? And so I was definitely in that second category and I was trying to kind of get out of that and more into the bless this mess territory.
Tori. We all need the motivational quotes up on the wall, right?
Yeah. A cross -stitch sampler saying those things.
Well, but here's a question for you.
I mean, are some personalities better than others?
I mean, how can we even think about this?
Yeah. So there's five traits that make up personality.
So it's openness to experiences, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness.
And then actually the opposite of neuroticism, emotional stability is the one that you want to have.
And generally, being higher on all five of those traits is considered, like, more adaptive in science terms or kind of just healthier and better for you.
So people who are a little bit more agreeable, a little bit more conscientious, they tend to just, like, be a little bit more successful.
Like, they make more money, they have more friends, they, you know, are healthier.
So you do kind of want to be higher on all of those traits, but you don't necessarily want to be all the way at the extreme 100 % more so than everyone else because that can also start to be a little bit off like obsessive or just kind of not quite right.
Yeah. If somebody who is 100 % agreeable would be something of a doormat.
Exactly. Exactly. You want to be disagreeable sometimes.
Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes when you're disagreeing with the right things to disagree with, but I mean, why are we who we are as this sort of in the genetic mix or how we're raised?
I mean, how do we get our personalities?
Yeah, so we get about 40 to 60 % of our personalities from our parents.
Doesn't mean we're exactly like our parents, but just that's the part that's sort of inherited.
It's in our genes. So if your parents are sort of extreme extroverts, there's a good chance that you will also be But there's like a good chunk of that, about half, that is also just comes from your environment.
And it's not totally how your parents raised you either.
It's sort of like where you grew up, who your friends are, what kind of job you end up having, whether you get married, you know, what kind of work you pursue, whether you go to college.
All of those things kind of form your personality and develop who you are as a person.
And it's really hard to say, like, which of those factors is the most important.
One researcher described it to me as more like a tapestry where everything kind of comes together and creates kind of who you are.
Yeah. Well, that's an interesting thing to think about.
I mean, what is personality then and like the definition of personality versus just how I'm sort of responding to my life or how things come to me.
I mean, I guess what makes something personality?
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah, so for a while, there were some researchers, like Carol Dweck was one of them, who basically thought there's no such thing as personality and all we do is just respond to situations, like something bad happens you respond this way, something good happens you respond that way.
But I think it's kind of both.
So it's it's sort of like how you typically respond to situations, right?
And and kind of other researchers who are not of that school kind of think it's also personality.
One way of looking at it is sort of how you pursue goals and and that personality actually helps you attain your goals.
So if you think about a trait like conscientiousness, you know, always being on time, being super organized, kind of knowing where all of your tax forms are.
Those things help you achieve certain goals.
You probably are going to be on time to your job interview, so you're going to get that job.
You probably are going to eat right, and so you're going to live a little bit longer.
If those are goals that you have, that element of your personality helps you pursue your goals.
So that's kind of a newer way of thinking about it as opposed to just um things happen and we react in in various ways.
Yeah and and the point of your book is that you might be able to actually change some of these.
I mean it sounds like again you know if 40 -60 % is from your genetic background, it's pretty hard to change that, but that still leaves a reasonable chunk that we might be able to modify slightly.
I mean is is this doable?
I'm just thinking about something like being conscientious.
I mean, it does in fact, help to know where your tax forms are and to know how to get to a job interview on time.
But if you're not naturally inclined that way, I mean, how how would one even go about becoming the sort of person who knows where their tax forms are?
Yeah, so I actually started out really conscientious.
So that wasn't a trait that I tried to change personally.
But I did interview a lot of people who became conscientious for the book.
And And they were all exactly what you describe.
They had no idea how to start.
One of them was a freelance writer who quit her job to freelance write and then didn't end up doing any writing because she just was like, I don't know.
How do I begin? Where do I go from here?
Another one was this guy who wanted to become a professional psychologist, but he had never studied for a test before or written a paper by the time he got to college.
So what they did is they just kind So for conscientiousness in particular, they just set up systems that worked for them.
They really had to sit down and be like, okay, I'm going to make a calendar of everything I have to do today and I'm going to assign everything to a time slot.
The guy who wanted to become a psychologist, he made note cards of every single word that could be on the GRE and quizzed himself all day.
He found a study partner and they just like read like psychology texts into the night together.
You know, he bought a book called how to make As or something like that.
And just like, yeah, I read it and was like, OK, I'm going to study.
I'm going to like highlight.
I'm going to take notes.
You know? So for conscientiousness, it is one of those things where if you set up systems that will help you to succeed, you actually can become conscientious, Even if you're not like don't have it necessarily a huge shift in mindset.
It's one where really the habits come first.
And then the conscientiousness kind of follows.
Yeah. Yeah. The good news is there's so much out there in the world of different systems and ideas.
Like that there is a book on how to make A's that breaks it down for someone who has not done that.
But yeah, you have to decide to avail yourself of all this.
Well, we're going to take a quick ad break.
And I will be back with more from Olga Hassan.
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Well, we are back. I am interviewing Olga Hazan who is the author of the brand new book, Me But Better, about the science of personality change.
So we'll go to a different aspect of personality, the one about being more anxious, like somebody who is more temperamentally anxious.
That's one you cover a bit more in the book and your own personal experiences of changing this.
So let's say someone is temperamentally anxious, not describing either of us, I am sure, but what can you do to actually change this tendency of yours?
People really hate this suggestion, anxious people in particular, But all of the research and all of the strategies and everything that I read basically comes back down to mindfulness.
People don't want to hear that.
They're like, I hate meditation.
I hate mindfulness.
Give me something else.
Now, it's true that neuroticism scores do go down with things like antidepressants.
I think there was a study on Zoloft, which actually reduces neuroticism.
Therapy can also reduce neuroticism.
but if you just don't want to deal with any of that and want to do something on your own, it really does come down to mindfulness and meditation practices that are really proven to bring down anxiety and depression, sometimes as well as Lexapro.
Yeah, well, what does that look like?
Then somebody says, okay, I want to be more mindful and meditate and hopefully cure my anxiety.
What should somebody who's thinking about that actually do?
Yeah. So I took intensive meditation class called MBSR and that involved meditating for about 45 minutes a day.
And the kind of meditation that they did, there's all different kinds of meditation.
This one was very kind of basic.
You just sit in the quiet and follow your breath and it's that same thing of like when thoughts arise, just watch them pass by like clouds, very difficult to do.
And it is challenging, and I found it challenging pretty much the whole time that I did it.
I will say though that my depression score went down after I completed the class.
My anxiety also went down, but not a ton.
I still scored very high on anxiety at the end of it.
I think honestly, I am just so anxious that it worked a little bit, but not all the way.
But yeah, it is something.
Other people in my class, they were like, oh, I'm totally cured.
It works differently for different people.
But yeah, unfortunately it is just sort of sitting there and trying to follow your breath.
There's other kinds too.
There's loving kindness meditation is sort of like repeating kind phrases to yourself and others.
Some people find that a little bit easier because there's actually something to focus on that's not just your breath.
And also, some types of yoga can be considered mindfulness.
And that's more of like a moving meditation.
I'm not talking here about like core power, where you're like listening to Britney Spears, but like, sort of just like a slower yoga where you're like really focusing on the breath and the movement.
Yeah. Well, maybe listening to Britney Spears makes some people less anxious, I don't know.
So I tried to listen to music during my meditation class and they were like, don't do that.
Like, don't do that.
Not allowed. Yeah. Well, I mean, is 45 minutes the minimum viable dose or is there, uh, is it possible to, uh, do it?
No. No. And honestly, the minimal, minimum viable dose is however much time you have.
Um, if you have five minutes, take the five minutes, do some deep breathing exercises, you know, try to breathe in, you know, hold it for four counts, breath out for, you know, five counts.
I forget what the exact counts are.
You know, but do some slow breathing.
Even if you have, let's say you're taking a shower, you just have like those whatever five six minutes to take a shower.
Try to have a mindful shower where you just focus on how good it feels to be in the hot water.
Yeah, it's definitely you do not have to commit to 45 minutes a day.
That's good. Because a lot of people don't have 45 minutes a day.
People would not do it.
People not do it. Yeah, well, I'm sure there's different stages of life where this is more possible and less possible, but let's talk about introversion and extroversion, because that is another one of the big five personality traits that, you know, we've been learning over the years, in recent decades, more about what it means to be introverted and extroverted.
Is there any reason to change that or to try to push oneself one way or the other?
When I first started this, I really identified very strongly as an introvert.
I was a little bit resistant of the idea.
I wanted more friends and more socializing, but I also wanted to stay true to my introversion.
What I really found is that the research consistently shows that extroverts are happier.
and even if you take introverts and tell them to go be extroverted for a few minutes, they come back happier.
They also say that they felt truer to themselves when they were being extroverted, like that they felt more authentic, which doesn't seem to make sense.
Basically what all this research is pointing to is the fact that social connections really do make us happy even if we still have that restorative need to be an introvert at the end of the day and like sip our tea and read our book, we still need that connection with society and we can't just be by ourselves all the time.
So for me, it was really pushing myself to kind of take on more activities, develop some hobbies, and really socialize quite a bit more than what I was doing.
Yeah, so what would somebody do if they identify that as something they'd like to push themselves a little bit on?
I would really recommend signing up for something that you have to go to somewhat regularly.
It is really hard to in this day and age commit to socializing if what you're doing is like texting people, to be like, let's get drinks and you're all like trying to find a time and like no one has time and you don't end up doing it and everyone cancels at the last minute.
Instead, I would sign up for like a class or some kind of activity where you prepaid, it's hard to get out of, other people are relying on you or like, I took improv and you actually can't miss more than two classes.
So, even if you don't feel like going, you'd better go.
And honestly, that was actually kind of a good commitment device for me because I think there were way too many days where after a long day at work, I didn't really feel like going.
But what happens is that like, if you actually force yourself to go and set aside that time for having fun as dorky as that sounds.
You will have a good time.
You will feel better afterwards.
You will get that mood boost that extroverts feel.
You just won't realize it beforehand.
Yeah, yeah. Well, one of my biggest tips I'm always sharing with people is to take one night for you.
And I always sort of explained this as like, well, people need something in their lives besides work and caring for family members.
But, you know, I'm always saying, well, make it as a commitment because, you know, otherwise, it won't rise up the hierarchy.
Like, your boss wants you to stay late.
You don't be like, yeah, I have time with my bathtub tonight.
You know, like, you're not gonna say that.
You'll be like, but if you have this improv class that you literally cannot miss, like you have a reason to push back.
Or if, you know, your kid wants you to drive them to the mall, there's a reason to push back.
And so, but the reason it is also making a commitment is then you go and you get the that's the benefit of it.
So it sounds like that's what you discovered as well.
Exactly. Yeah. All right, well, let's take one more quick ad break and I will be back with more from Olga.
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A story told in 12 steps.
Listen to Crums as part of the Michael Vera Podcast Network available on The iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey y 'all, I'm Maria Fernandez.
My podcast, When You're Invisible is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped my life.
I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before.
season two is all about community organizing and being underestimated all the greatest changes have happened what a couple of people said this sucks let's do something about it I can't have more than $2 ,000 in my bank account or else I can't get disability benefits they won't let you succeed I know we get paid to serve you guys but like be respectful we're made out of the same things own body blood.
It's rare to have black male teachers, sometimes I in the lesson them.
I'm also the testament.
Listen to when you're invisible as part of the Michael to our podcast network available on the I heart radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Well we're back and talking with Olga has on who is the the author of the brand -new book Me But Better about the science of personality change.
So are you actually doing anything different in your day -to -day life now Olga, as a result of writing this book?
But I know other things have changed too, since you wrote it.
I mean, you had a kid for instance, that probably had a bigger change on your day -to -day life than anything you did.
Yeah. So I did have a baby, so I am not meditating for 45 minutes a day anymore.
Unless you count watching the baby like, try to eat garbage, which he really loves to do.
And that can be kind of meditative because you're like closing the garbage can.
He's opening the garbage can and you're closing it.
Anyway, there's like a Buddhist lesson in there, I'm sure.
But one thing I do do is that I really have made it a point to reach out to other moms and try to connect with other moms, even if it's just like a short playdate or like a short I'm honestly like get together or just like coffee or whatever else.
And that is really something that's different from before I started this project.
I really try to do something like that at least once a week, because I found that it is more restorative for me to have some social interaction, some kind of shared experience with someone else.
It is even when I'm really tired, It feels better to do that than it does just to like sit by myself and like watch TV And I think that has really been a huge change.
I just realized that I do I do kind of need some social interaction like I I'm I'm not a hundred percent introverted You know, I'm like maybe 30 % or 40 % or something like that.
But Yeah, so that's that's something that I do now that I've sort of kept up.
I would say from from this project Excellent.
Well, we always like to talk with people about their daily routines on this podcast.
I'm wondering if you have any.
It could be a morning routine, although I know that sometimes when people have very young children, morning routines is a bit of a, you know, the baby wakes up, that is the morning routine.
But I'm curious if you have any daily routines that that help you get things done in your life.
Yeah. Well, so yeah.
My day is kind of like go, go, go from the minute the baby wakes up, you know, I would say my my I have like a good wind down routine at the end of the day that I that I think is helpful.
So we put him to bed around 730, or eight, and then I actually work out every day.
I find that it is like a really good stress reliever and a great break from like sitting or like holding a baby or like doing stuff that is not like that beneficial for your body.
Um, so I work out, um, uh, I have like, um, you know, like whatever, 15 minutes to talk to my husband.
Um, and I've actually started reading more novels.
Um, I like usually have a novel that I'm working through and it's something that I've kind of picked up since the baby was born weirdly.
I just like need an escape that's not, like you kind of said, like you can't just work and take care of your kids all the time.
I kind of just need that like mental escape that is also still stimulating and not TV.
So, yeah, so that's kind of what I do in the evenings is I in my, whatever, 90 minutes of free time, I work out and then I read.
Well, that's fascinating that you work out in the evening cause this actually is a time that could work for a lot of people, after they get their kids to bed and it's time most people are just watching TV or scrolling around online.
I think a lot of people are concerned about not having enough energy or that it would keep them awake.
I'm curious what you do and you found that's not the case.
So it doesn't, I've always been an evening exerciser weirdly and it doesn't actually keep me awake.
I don't know why. I think I have a different chronotype than most other people possibly for a different show but I am like really an evening person and not a morning person.
So yeah, it doesn't keep me awake.
In fact, I think it helps me sleep sometimes, but I'll do like a hot yoga class or I will do the elliptical machine.
We have an elliptical in our house, which I know is a privilege.
But it's just my thing, I don't know.
Yeah, well, it's certainly possible.
I mean, you know, many people could find a used one on Craigslist, I am sure.
There's a lot of people who just thought they would exercise and then don't...
Do you actually go to a hot yoga class then somewhere, I assume?
Yeah, I do. I do go to a, Like, but not every day.
Like that's my once a week for me thing.
Yeah, no that's a great idea too.
I mean, because again, the kid is down.
Exactly. So like, it's no real demand on anyone else that you go as long as somebody else's home.
So yeah, that's awesome.
I love that you have that daily routine.
Well, I always like to ask people as well, what is something you have done recently to take a day from great to awesome?
So something that you've put into your life that's made it a little bit better.
Ooh, from great to awesome.
Okay, I bought disposable smoothie cups, like they're paper cups that are for smoothies.
They have like a lid that a straw goes into so my kid can't reach his little hand in and like try to grab it while I'm drinking it.
And it just makes the morning so much better cause I can like throw a bunch of stuff in the blender, make a smoothie, he likes to watch the blender go.
I pour it into the smoothie cup.
I drink my smoothie while I'm chasing him around as he tries to eat garbage.
He sometimes drinks a little bit of the smoothie too.
And it just makes the morning go a lot easier if I'm not trying to eat a bowl of cereal while he's being himself.
So I don't know, I just have my little smoothie and then I just throw the cup away at the end.
I know this is, that's wasteful but whatever in this time, this is what I need.
This is what you need.
And I gotta have my smoothie cup and I throw it away and then there's no dishes, yeah, it's great.
Oh, beautiful, beautiful.
Sounds like you also need to put him in front of the washing machine or the dryer for entertainment.
Anything that is like not a toy, he's like, I love this.
I love this, this is, of course, of course.
That's what they do at that age.
Yeah, so what are you looking forward to right now?
Ooh, after my book stuff winds down a little bit, we are going to take a family vacation And I'm going to take a week off and I'm gonna read a book.
And I'm gonna have my parents watch my baby.
Awesome. Even better.
The relaxing vacation.
They can keep him out of the garbage can.
Yes. So Olga, where can people find you?
Yeah. So I'm a writer for theatlantic .com, just theatlantic .com into your browser, and I also have a substack.
UllgaHazan .substack .com, and the book is me but better and it's wherever books are sold.
Awesome! Well, Ullga, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you everyone for listening.
If you have feedback about this or any other episode, you can always reach me at laura, at lauravandercam .com.
In the meantime, this is Laura.
Thanks for listening, and here's to making the most of our time.
Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at laura .lauravandercam .com.
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Hey listeners, I need to tell you about Hill House Home.
them. I love this brand.
They invented the viral nap dress.
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I'm not the only one who loves Hill House dresses.
Celebrities like Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo, Anne Hathaway and Mindy Kaling have all been spotted in the Hill House nap dress.
One of my favorite things about Hill House dresses is how versatile they are.
I can wear the same dress during the day and then head out for dinner at night without missing a beat.
Hill House Home's commitment to comfort and style doesn't stop at their dresses.
They started with bedding back in 2016 and their prints are just gorgeous.
Their bath robes and pajamas are so soft because guess what?
The PJs are made with the same cotton fabric as their baby onesies.
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Hill House is perfect for all ages.
They have the cutest baby and kids items like tiny robes, onesies and PJs you can monogram.
All just adorable. So get 15 % off your order of $100 or more at Hill House Home .com with code BREAKFAST15.
Again that's Code BREAKFAST15 for 15 % off your order at HillHouseHome .com.
